Osteocalcin levels and Tenofovir -- How Much Vitamin K2 is needed?

[luckyman316]

One of the things that they watch in my labs, is the Osteocalcin levels. For those that don't know what it is, I point you to this site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteocalcin

When I decided to start my medication, they didn't do a baseline on my Osteocalcin levels but said they would watch it every 2 months. The first 2 months (May 2014), I was above the normal range 38.80 ng/mL (normal range is 7.30-38.50). At the 4 month mark (July 2014), while on this medication, this marker was even higher 51.31 ng/mL

After reading more about this, I learned that having a high marker like this means that you need more Vitamin K2 in you. So, I decided to take 200mcg a day of K2 with MK-7. I believe either this test or the next test I am taking, will measure this level again. I'm curious to see how it helps. However, I still do feel some weakness and I suspect it is from this.

So this brings me to the question. How much should I be taking a day to combat this problem? Should I increase? Any reccommendations on brands? If so, can we get a link to it?

I hope this helps others who are also having the same issue!

[luckyman316]

Thanks BND, I was sort of aware of this. I was given what they call a DXEA Scan when I started my clinical trial. I'll know more in October if there is any bone loss when they do the 6 month scan. My doctor has said if there is, they will have to determine the best way to combat this. Keep in mind, I am on a double blinded study so I may be given TAF or TDF, I will not know until the end of the study.

Also, I am fairly young (37), very active, not underweight at all and had the tests done for HIV which all came back negative (thankfully!)

I'm going to take Stef's advice to see what can be done for me the next 4 months as well.

[stef2011]

please report improvment after vitd, vit k and pth balance on bone mineral density

did you also have baseline moc so we can measure improvement/worsening.by the way there are new mocs with no x rays, i rather use those ones, better avoid xray when possible

[Bnd11]

Researchers Find Tenofovir Increases Hip Bone Loss in Older Patients
Hepatitis B patients treated with the front-runner antiviral tenofovir (Viread) run a risk of reduced bone mass in their hip area, according to a recent report in the August issue of the Journal of Infectious Diseases. The risk of weaker hip bones resulting from tenofovir treatment is more pronounced in older patients who smoke, are thinner with lower body mass, and have advanced liver disease.

Loss of bone mineral density (bone mass) has been documented in HIV-infected patients treated with tenofovir long-term. British researchers decided to monitor 122 tenofovir-treated hepatitis B patients to see if they also lost bone mass, and compare them to a control group of 48 untreated-patients.

Both the control group and treated patients were scanned by X-rays to measure bone mass. Tenofovir-treated patients had reduced bone mineral density, but it was limited to the hip area, researchers noted. "Age and advanced liver disease are additional contributing (risk) factors, underlining the importance of multifactorial fracture risk assessment," they wrote, recommending that doctors perform bone density tests when starting patients on tenofovir in order to identify those at risk of hip injuries.

Source: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25156561

[stef2011]

that is a good balance you can reach parath 14-20 for sure when vitd25oh gets to 100ng/ml, recheck osteocalcin when pth is 14-20 and vitd25oh 100ng/ml both stable there few months

k is also very high in pickles

[luckyman316]

Thanks Stef! They are actually watching all of this in my tests. My last test, shows:

Calcium - 9.3 mg/dL (range is 8.3-10.6)
Parathormone - 30.5 pg/mL (range is 14.0-72.0)

My VitD25oh levels were measured at the baseline, it was at 76.6 after taking 10,000iu daily for a few months. Prior to that, it was at 14.1. They are rechecking this level on the 6 month test which is in October.

The only things that have ever fell out of range on my tests are the ALT, AST (now normal) and the Ostecalcin. I'd give more numbers but it's a lot to type out lol

Again, thanks for the advice! I don't think I can get natto around here. Also, the most I've seen K2 available is at 100mcg per tablet. I'd definitely like to increase it if I'm doing my maintenance of 10,000iu daily.

[stef2011]

just test vitd25oh and parathormone, so you will know if you can reach a balance with vitd25oh 100ng/ml.

as regards vit k:
some researchers talk about using 1000mcg of vit K per 5000iu of d3.there is japanese food called natto which is full of vit k and also some european cheeses are full of it, dont remember the names though

[stef2011]

tenofovir has nothing to do with bones mineral density, it is hbv itself that hijacks vdr receptors which control genes for balance of immune system and calcium metabolism

we all have low vit d, very high nagalase levels, low gcmaf, low vdr activation, high normal range parathormone

if you really want to control calcium balance you need (and this may help immunity too)
- check you nagalase and make it normal by adding gcmaf from outside (injections).thi action will make vitamin d and gcmaf reach vdr receptors and activate genes of calcium metabolism

-check you vit25oh levels, probably very low without supplements

-check you parathormone (when this is low range 10-20pg/ml you take calcium from foods, when it is medium-high level you take some calcium from bones, when it is high end of normal or high you definitely take calcium from bones and go towards osteoporosis)
all active hbvers dont have a low parathormone

-it is not nagalase and low vit d to block vdr receptors, there are other unknown factors too, so the easiest way without using gcmaf is:
make vitd25oh as high as needed to make parathormone 10-20pg/ml (they are inversely correlated).problem is you need doctors monitoring and no calcium diet because the lvels of vitd25oh can be very high to overcome the block on vdr receptors and so act on parathormone

all this is very simple because parathormone can go down only if vitd25oh reaches vdr receptors (these receptors are on almost any cell), so this can be used as a marker of vdr activity.vit k added to this will make easy for calcium from food to go to the bones