Another disgusting, anxiety provoking article!

[DoubleDose]

This is the sort of article that makes you feel totally creepy while in the process of enjoying the SVR life.  Not meaning to bring anyone down, or rain on anyone's parade, especially my own, I guess we must face up to this sort of information and see where it leads us.  Hopefully to even better therapies, to complete the job for us!

Paste link into browser:

http://gastroenterology.jwatch.org/cgi/content/full/2005/216/1?q=etoc


DoubleDose

[scruffy]

Beautiful-Beautiful-Beautiful and well said. Frank

[Imagine]

         "My heart is afraid it will have to suffer", the boy said.
         "Tell your heart that the fear of suffering is worse than the suffering itself", said the Wiseman.

[Califia]

I was just thinking about my own apparent inconsistencies on the subject, which I've put on display by publically toying with the idea of pumping extra riba,  i.e., winning this chemical marathon by the best means I happen to have on hand at  the moment, followed by my comment to you, which might seem to suggest a kind of nonchalance about the importance of clearing.   Please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say --  I really don't underestimate our wily opponent,  and obviously I'm very attached to the possibility of achieving a genuine SVR.   But even so, the specter of future replication doesn't make me too anxious.  Maybe it's because I'm still on treatment, and I'm focused hard on the present.  But  it's something else as well.  Somehow I'm basically optimistic about this particular issue, and I think that's because I've spent so long managing this disease with herbal medicine.   Once we've lived with a chronic inflammatory process we're pretty damaged, and we have to work hard and long to recover lost ground.  But it can be done.   I've done it.   I'm still doing it.  I do think that  we will have to remain vigilant until the end of our days, but I also believe that our vigilance will serve us well enough.  I believe that as an article of faith.  Just as I've always believed, before I had the scientific opinion to back me up, that this viral infection is systemic.  I've known that ever since I was first exposed to Chinese Medicine in the early 90s,  when it presented me with a useful topographic map to my own physical experience when Western hepatology couldn't.   In TCM the liver is understood globally.   It's not just a particular organ, not a form but a function, and that function extends to the eyes and the brain and the central nervous system and the "tendons,"  and even to particular psychological states.  So whether we harbor festering virus or no, in a sense we will always the carry the living impression of that virus.   We're always going to need to be attentive to liver restoration, and everything which that entails in the broadest possible sense.  But we definitely have the tools.   How we keep our immune systems strong after treatment, that is the real question.   That's what it would be useful to start talking about here.   The both/and approach:  yes, the dangers are real, and yes, we're prepared to meet them.  Something like that.

[Laika]

So eloquently put, Califia!  Very lovely.  There's dragon slaying mode and then there's learning to be a responsible caretaker for your body, helping it to function maximally til the end and teaching your children too.  Television is teaching everyone to treat their bodies badly--consume unhealthy food in unhealthy amounts and spend their time in ways that is spiritually unsatisfying (dedicating your life to making the money to buy the fancy car to impress the other people sitting in traffic..."rewarding yourself" for having to go to work with things you can't afford, physically or financially, so that you will struggle with weight gain and debt.  It's the American culture.  Those of us with bad livers know we can't eat that stuff and that if we're going to feel decent, we have to avoid stress and take care of ourselves.  If I am not mistaken DD, you have children you are concerned about, and so do I, and grandchildren.  Although the business of transmission remains a mystery, we can always try to give our children the gift of knowing how to take care of themselves, and let science continue to look for answers with the virus.  They are making progress.

[cuteus]

might, could, etc. the favorite terms for we don't know for sure.

this article was linked before, so it is no surprise to me to see it again.

one thing we must remember is that post graduate peer world recognition involves getting published. it is extremely important after your doctorate to become a published author in your field, that is all my daughter talks about, taking time after her doctorate to work with "published" researchers and to finally get some publishings herself.

how do you accomplish that? cointroversial and "spooky" to consider subject matter to gain an edge over competing researchers.

long term svr rates do not seem to back up the "could relapse" theory, so i am not going to consider it until better proof is presented. does it affect us at some other level?  what doesn't? processed flours and sugars, smog, indoor pollutants. etc. I refused To worry about sub clinical factors on all possible harmful substances, around and within me, the stress is going to cause more harm than a snickers bar or few strands of negative RNA, in my opinion.
persistent hcv antibodies as proof that it still might be replicating? what about my measles positive titer? is measles still around? should i add that to my worries?

i am not saying that hcv persistence is not possible, anything in life is.
is it worth constantly worrying and thinking about it? only if you need the stress to feel alive. to me, it is not worth it,
it is not a pressing matter in my life.
be well, all

[Dirac]

This is just pain. I am not even going to read it.

[MichaelT]

Sharp as ever. Spot on!

[scruffy]

SVR or not SVR I will not let hcv rule my life and I hate to see SVR'S fretting about "possible" residual virus. Whether we do or do not have hcv life is frikking short. Live it now. Frank

[OkieJim]

Hey now,
I'm SVR and loving life again. I have a new look on how I'm treating my body. My LFT's are normal so my body is still able to clean itself up. Come on guys. We did and have TX today. I agree I'd hate to pass HCV on to anyone but I've really not heard any new information saying it is happening. I don't come here much anymore because I am SVR and life is too short to worry about bad possibilities. My DR. sez I'm healthy and I feel good so there.

Love Peace and Happiness

[Bartt]

Amen to that brother!

[mikesimon]

"Cure" would be a wonderful thing but I don't think that for most of us it's the critical issue. For me, anyway, the real issues are: 1) how do I feel? 2)what is the risk that my liver function will deteriorate? 3)what is the risk that I may infect another? The fact that the virus may be detectable upon intense examination doesn't fill me with elation but neither does it fill me with despair. I think more in terms of control insofar as this virus is concerned. Like so many things in life control really is the key. They say an alcoholic is never cured but if the disease is controlled the negative ramifications are eliminated. Diabetes is a terrible disease that cannot be cured (perhaps some would say that islet or pancreas transplant is a cure but that's not really true either) but with tight glucose control the long term consequences can be greatly reduced. So I am okay with SVR at this point and I believe that for the vast majority of us this constitutes the solution to a very serious disease. That's not to say I don't appreciate the information or that I would choose to ignore the latest information even if it appears somewhat negative. I just view it with a jaundiced eye - if you know what I mean. Mike

[DRAGON SLAYER]

Hi DD & thank you for the info. I must say that there's nothing "disgusting or anxiety provoking" about attaining SVR. If we sit & dwell about all the possible definitions of "SVR" we'll die of another disease or of old age first. Pls enjoy your hard earned SVR....since true for NOW it's the best you can achieve.
Leave the future for the GODS to handle.
If you test negative for HCV RNA it's just as easy to say:
"I'm free of this virus instead of I'm a carrier of this dreadful disease". So let us enjoy our new found freedom & be positive in our views especially when medical science is still out on this verdict.
Good luck all,
Ben

[Bartt]

Although this disease has been around for hundreds of years and we now have some lines of defense to fight the disease, it is all still very theoretical. This article is theoretical. I think we need to look at the facts. I completed the treatment successfully 3.5 years ago. I drink on the weekends and have a healthy lifestyle. I was just tested two weeks ago and am still SVR with ALT & AST 19 & 21 respectively. Results speak for themselves. Perhaps our immune systems keep it at bay after treatment. Perhaps the antibody is present but active virus not. There are many perhaps but little facts other than what we see as far as results. Eventually, there will be a test to determine microscopic levels of virus. Then the medical arena can comfortably say the virus is gone. I can tell you I'm not worrying about it.

Regards,
Barry

[DoubleDose]

Just as long as that peaceful coexistence does NOT include little buggers quietly monkeying with our internal bio-mechanisms.  The question then becomes:  How dormant is dormant.  And if you leave sleeping dogs lie, will you develop fleas in your brain?

All joking aside, my real concern, is what is our immune system and central nervous system doing as a direct result of this 'sub-clinical' virus.  Is it sub-clinical' ONLY because researchers have to use more powerful tools to realize that it is still there?  Does that mean that it is 'disengaged???  or that it is totally benign???  

And why do we tend to have so many post-tx symptoms, long term, in spite of becoming SVR....or the current/passe term: having eradicated the virus?  OOPS.  Maybe now:  Minimized?
Downsized???   Miniaturized???  Anaesthetized???

And now do we wonder why the antibodies to HCV seem to never fade away after eradica...oops  after SV..er...oops....after getting an ongoing undetectable result using existing standard PCR testing.  

DoubleDose, in miniature

[Califia]

At least the study was described as "elegant."   As a long term aesthete, I take some consolation in that.

But you know, why shouldn't Our Favorite Virus behave like all the others that tend to hang around in a state of semi-dormancy, like EBV or CMV?   We just might have to reconcile ourselves to some level of polite coexistence.