Aa
Hep C and cholesterol levels
Diagnosed in 1997 (exposed circa 1984), 49 yo female. Have refused liver biopsy and all drug treatments. Have done extensive dietary/lifestyle changes over the past 12 years. Perform extremely intense physical exercise 4 to 5 times per week, eat organic according to the healthy diet principles of Weston A Price Foundation. Recent blood test show AST 55, ALT 79, total cholesterol 229 (LDL 110, HDL 111, TRI 42). Dr. concerned the high HDL could be related to a "nuerotoxic effect". I don't understand; I feel great--should I be concerned?
Please have a biopsy. I felt great and was strong as an ox until last summer when I started bruising and itching and was dancing up against liver failure. Hepatitis C is that insidious. You think that your internal organs will give you a hint if things are going south, like hurting, but they don't. It's just a horrible surprise.
Liver failure is usually the only indication that most get. When you read about what dying of liver failure is like, there could not be a worse way to die except maybe emphysema. Don't make assumptions. Get proactive. No nasty side effect is as bad as death.
Liver failure is usually the only indication that most get. When you read about what dying of liver failure is like, there could not be a worse way to die except maybe emphysema. Don't make assumptions. Get proactive. No nasty side effect is as bad as death.
"Dr. concerned the high HDL could be related to a "nuerotoxic effect". I don't understand; I feel great--should I be concerned?"
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Does your doctor suspect a particular neurotoxin? Are you aware of having been exposed to a neurotoxin?
jd
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Does your doctor suspect a particular neurotoxin? Are you aware of having been exposed to a neurotoxin?
jd
I am cautious in many respects, not certain that I am "right" or by any means have all the answers just certain that Dr. Allopathic is wrong.
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I don't know if you're really as cautious as you think you are and I don't know anything about Dr Allopathic. I have a couple of friends who have gone the herbal route but they chose it after having a liver biopsy. Maybe you can get by with just a fibrosure test at least that would be better than going about your life thinking that all is fine only to find out that your ALT has climbed a wall and is trying it's damnest to fight off the HepC. That's what's happening, I hope you do something about it. good luck
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I don't know if you're really as cautious as you think you are and I don't know anything about Dr Allopathic. I have a couple of friends who have gone the herbal route but they chose it after having a liver biopsy. Maybe you can get by with just a fibrosure test at least that would be better than going about your life thinking that all is fine only to find out that your ALT has climbed a wall and is trying it's damnest to fight off the HepC. That's what's happening, I hope you do something about it. good luck
The study is a little confusing. If you read the whole thing it says genotype plays no role in progression of the disease and then goes on to say most will get cirrhosis at about age 65 EXCEPT women who get the disease before age 37 AND are genotype non-1. They won't get cirrhosis until age 89 on average. A definite contradiction.
Also the 20-30% getting cirrhosis is right in the study. "Although several prospective studies have reprorted low rates of liver complications after Hepatitis C infection, it is generally agreed that progrssion of liver disease in 20%-30% of patients can lead to compensated and eventually decompensated cirrhosis or heptaocellularcarcinoma or both"
I don't believe there are ANY studies and the CDC still maintains that the number of deaths out of every 100 with Hepatitis C is about 5-10. Even if they are off by 30%, the statement most will die with Hep C and not from it is most likely true. Also they estimate 10,000 deaths per year from Hep C now and it will triple in the next few years. There are supposedly 4,000,000 with the disease. If 30,000 die each year(which hasn't happened yet) it would take 150 years for everyone with Hep c to pass from it!!!
It's a terrible disease and I have a loved one with it, but it isn't killing most with it and hopefully with all the new drugs coming especially the combinations WITHOUT interferon, like the promising INFORM-1 trial that works across ALL genotypes, Hepatitis c in the next 5 years will be very controllable.
Also the 20-30% getting cirrhosis is right in the study. "Although several prospective studies have reprorted low rates of liver complications after Hepatitis C infection, it is generally agreed that progrssion of liver disease in 20%-30% of patients can lead to compensated and eventually decompensated cirrhosis or heptaocellularcarcinoma or both"
I don't believe there are ANY studies and the CDC still maintains that the number of deaths out of every 100 with Hepatitis C is about 5-10. Even if they are off by 30%, the statement most will die with Hep C and not from it is most likely true. Also they estimate 10,000 deaths per year from Hep C now and it will triple in the next few years. There are supposedly 4,000,000 with the disease. If 30,000 die each year(which hasn't happened yet) it would take 150 years for everyone with Hep c to pass from it!!!
It's a terrible disease and I have a loved one with it, but it isn't killing most with it and hopefully with all the new drugs coming especially the combinations WITHOUT interferon, like the promising INFORM-1 trial that works across ALL genotypes, Hepatitis c in the next 5 years will be very controllable.
Hi Agatha, yes, I saw a news story today about a new treatment for Hep C going through clinical trials. I think it was in yahoo news. Here it is:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090429/hl_hsn/newtreatmentcombobetteragainsthepatitisc
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090429/hl_hsn/newtreatmentcombobetteragainsthepatitisc
Hey guys I was watching the news today and They said that the drug teleprivir , is that how it is spelled, will be out for everyone next year and that it is working very well in the trials. I was surprised to actually see it on the news. Just thought i would let everyone know. Don't know if this is widely known.
Its obvious you have questions on your mind about your condition, from the title of your post
"Hep C and cholesterol levels"
Seriously, why not find out. You don't have to do agree to treatment to get liver tests.
At least get a fibrosure blood test, It will give you an idea of your stage of liver disease. Or maybe see a real Hepatologist, just for a consult to see where you stand ? Exactly what harm could this cause.
Maybe your liver is perfectly normal with no damage, and you can go on just like you have. Don't tell me your not wondering about what is really going on in your liver, or causing your high liver enzymes and cholesterol. And you liver enzymes, yes they are high. Not like mine were, in the hundreds, but high none the less, and diffidently out of range on any test scale.
If your reasoning about exercise causing high enzymes was true, than mine would be off the charts. I spend hours in the gym every day, and my enzymes test beginning of the month were in the teens, again. My enzymes have been like that for months now, since I cleared the virus. I was in the military, and know all about your tough work outs. There is no more room on the bar for any more weighs on my leg press. I bench 10sets with 4 big plates. I could go on, but this thread is about you. You get the idea, your enzymes are not normal. This means you have ongoing liver damage. It however does not tell you the amount of damage your liver has sustained.
Many here are doing a wait and watch approach with little to no liver damage. Some are even waiting with stage 3. This is OK, however to you must be diligent on the 'watch' part, And you totally dropped the ball here.
Or is the real reason,
you are scared to death, of finding out your true state of health ?
Don't feel alone, all of us have been there, at least at one point.
I truly wish you the best of luck,
apache
"Hep C and cholesterol levels"
Seriously, why not find out. You don't have to do agree to treatment to get liver tests.
At least get a fibrosure blood test, It will give you an idea of your stage of liver disease. Or maybe see a real Hepatologist, just for a consult to see where you stand ? Exactly what harm could this cause.
Maybe your liver is perfectly normal with no damage, and you can go on just like you have. Don't tell me your not wondering about what is really going on in your liver, or causing your high liver enzymes and cholesterol. And you liver enzymes, yes they are high. Not like mine were, in the hundreds, but high none the less, and diffidently out of range on any test scale.
If your reasoning about exercise causing high enzymes was true, than mine would be off the charts. I spend hours in the gym every day, and my enzymes test beginning of the month were in the teens, again. My enzymes have been like that for months now, since I cleared the virus. I was in the military, and know all about your tough work outs. There is no more room on the bar for any more weighs on my leg press. I bench 10sets with 4 big plates. I could go on, but this thread is about you. You get the idea, your enzymes are not normal. This means you have ongoing liver damage. It however does not tell you the amount of damage your liver has sustained.
Many here are doing a wait and watch approach with little to no liver damage. Some are even waiting with stage 3. This is OK, however to you must be diligent on the 'watch' part, And you totally dropped the ball here.
Or is the real reason,
you are scared to death, of finding out your true state of health ?
Don't feel alone, all of us have been there, at least at one point.
I truly wish you the best of luck,
apache
Where do you get "20-30% or 1/3" out this study ?
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If accidently put the study into a dryer for too long or too hot a setting then you can come out with 20-30%. I consider myself a careful person but it happened to a favorite T-shirt once.
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If accidently put the study into a dryer for too long or too hot a setting then you can come out with 20-30%. I consider myself a careful person but it happened to a favorite T-shirt once.
I hope you guys are wrong, and we can help her, help herself.
Quote from PB111:
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I did go on the website. This study basically says 20-30%; I've seen ones that say 5-10%, they may very well be older studies. So, I assume approximately 1/3 would be a group consensus?
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Huh ??? Are we reading the same study ???
...admit it, you still haven't read the study. Or do you just understand Zen ?
Or is it, you flat out don't buy it, and think whoever is telling you
"most die with hep c not from hep" is the Zen gospel, and since it sounds cool, it must be true.
Where do you get "20-30% or 1/3" out this study ?
=============================================================
****Conclusion: Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection.****
=============================================================
Quote from PB111:
=============================================================
I did go on the website. This study basically says 20-30%; I've seen ones that say 5-10%, they may very well be older studies. So, I assume approximately 1/3 would be a group consensus?
=============================================================
Huh ??? Are we reading the same study ???
...admit it, you still haven't read the study. Or do you just understand Zen ?
Or is it, you flat out don't buy it, and think whoever is telling you
"most die with hep c not from hep" is the Zen gospel, and since it sounds cool, it must be true.
Where do you get "20-30% or 1/3" out this study ?
=============================================================
****Conclusion: Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection.****
=============================================================
why waste your time replying to this person. she has her mind made up and that is it. please let this thread go away. just say a prayer for her and move on
PJ: This study basically says 20-30%; I've seen ones that say 5-10%, they may very well be older studies. So, I assume approximately 1/3 would be a group consensus?
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No. The study says "Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection."
Since when does "most" equal 1/3?
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No. The study says "Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection."
Since when does "most" equal 1/3?
"And if you don't believe that, then you too are ignorant"
Regardless of your foolish decision we all wish you all the luck in the world.
Just remember big pharma had nothing to do with the stage of my disease however they did save my life when sticking my head in the sand would not.
Someday, when you need them - you will be very glad indeed that they exist.
See you then.
Goodbye.
Regardless of your foolish decision we all wish you all the luck in the world.
Just remember big pharma had nothing to do with the stage of my disease however they did save my life when sticking my head in the sand would not.
Someday, when you need them - you will be very glad indeed that they exist.
See you then.
Goodbye.
I've been busy working. Anyway, thanks for copy/paste the study. I did go on the website. This study basically says 20-30%; I've seen ones that say 5-10%, they may very well be older studies. So, I assume approximately 1/3 would be a group consensus? This one, as well as any study or "source of statistics" may possibly be biased. WebMD, eMedicine, medscape; they've all been affected by Big Pharma's politics and money. And if you don't believe that, then you too are ignorant. My doctor is not a "natoropath" but an Integrative Physician which means he practices both conventional and alternative medicine.
I came here with a question about cholesterol. My intent was not to stir up a t storm or impose my personal beliefs on anyone. You all have been very helpful; I thank you for the information you have provided and I respect your decisions and opinions. I wish you all the best in health and success in defeating this virus.
I find we are of very differing viewpoints, on a different wavelength so to speak so I will no longer be posting. We are all in the same boat and the best path to success has not been ascertained as of yet; let's just wish each other the best of luck, no matter which path one chooses.
Goodbye and good luck.
I came here with a question about cholesterol. My intent was not to stir up a t storm or impose my personal beliefs on anyone. You all have been very helpful; I thank you for the information you have provided and I respect your decisions and opinions. I wish you all the best in health and success in defeating this virus.
I find we are of very differing viewpoints, on a different wavelength so to speak so I will no longer be posting. We are all in the same boat and the best path to success has not been ascertained as of yet; let's just wish each other the best of luck, no matter which path one chooses.
Goodbye and good luck.
quote from Jim:
In the Zen tradition of Buddhism there is a story of a smart and eager university professor who comes to an old Zen master for teachings. The Zen master offers him tea and upon the man's acceptance he pours the tea into the cup until it overflows. As the professor politely expresses his dismay at the overflowing cup, the Zen master keeps on pouring.
"A mind that is already full cannot take in anything new," the master explains. "Like this cup, you are full of opinions and preconceptions." In order to find happiness, he teaches his disciple, he must first empty his cup.
---------------
You came here asking for help, yet you are full of older opinions and preconceptions.
In other words, forget the outdated info for a minute and read the d*mn study :) Then make up your mind. No one is telling you to treat, we're just telling you to get your facts straight.
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Very good post Jim, it deserved a copy and paste.
Pb111, why didn't you even read the study ?
You think it was because you did not want to know, or that you already thought you knew and weren't going to change your mind no matter what.
Well here is the first part of the study... note the conclusion, I stared it for you.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554637
=============================================================
Background: Age at infection is known to be associated with disease progression rate in hepatitis C virus (HCV) infected patients. The aim of this study was to assess when cirrhosis is expected to occur according to host and viral factors.
Methods: Fibrosis progression was studied in 247 naive HCV patients using multiple regression analysis. The expected age at cirrhosis was calculated for each patient.
Results: Progression rate was 0.13, 0.14, 0.27, and 0.36 U of fibrosis/year for patients with age at infection ≤19, 20–24, 25–36 and ≥37 years, respectively. Age at infection above 37 years was independently associated with fast progression (rate>0.13; P=0.001). Body mass index >25 kg/m2 and alanine aminotransferase>3 × ULN are also possibly associated with faster progression. Based on progression rates, the expected age at cirrhosis is 65.4, 64.6, 64.8 and 69.4 years for age at infection ≤19, 20–24, 25–36, ≥37 years, respectively.
****Conclusion: Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection.****
Thus, age itself seems even more important than age at infection for predicting the occurrence of liver cirrhosis. A specific active monitoring and therapeutic approach should be adopted in older patients to prevent progression to cirrhosis and its complications.
Introduction
Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection has been identified as the main reason for end stage liver disease, approaching 50% of liver transplantations performed in the US.[1] Although several prospective studies have reported low rates of liver complications[2–6] after HCV infection, it is generally agreed that progression of liver disease in 20–30% of patients can lead to compensated and eventually decompensated cirrhosis or hepatocellular carcinoma or both.[7, 8] However, two main issues remain to be clarified. Once a patient with HCV infection has been identified, the first question is to know whether this patient will progress to liver complications, mainly cirrhosis. If yes, the second issue is to know how fast he will progress taking into account identified factors possibly associated with the rate of progression.
Based on the assessment of the rate of fibrosis progression, the aim of the present study was to determine when cirrhosis is expected to occur with regard to host and viral factors.
============================================================
Or maybe I am wrong and you did read the study, and disagree with all the experts and there statistical data. Or you think they are all part of a big pharma conspiracy ?
apache empty his tea cup all over keyboard.
In the Zen tradition of Buddhism there is a story of a smart and eager university professor who comes to an old Zen master for teachings. The Zen master offers him tea and upon the man's acceptance he pours the tea into the cup until it overflows. As the professor politely expresses his dismay at the overflowing cup, the Zen master keeps on pouring.
"A mind that is already full cannot take in anything new," the master explains. "Like this cup, you are full of opinions and preconceptions." In order to find happiness, he teaches his disciple, he must first empty his cup.
---------------
You came here asking for help, yet you are full of older opinions and preconceptions.
In other words, forget the outdated info for a minute and read the d*mn study :) Then make up your mind. No one is telling you to treat, we're just telling you to get your facts straight.
==============================================================
Very good post Jim, it deserved a copy and paste.
Pb111, why didn't you even read the study ?
You think it was because you did not want to know, or that you already thought you knew and weren't going to change your mind no matter what.
Well here is the first part of the study... note the conclusion, I stared it for you.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/554637
=============================================================
Background: Age at infection is known to be associated with disease progression rate in hepatitis C virus (HCV) infected patients. The aim of this study was to assess when cirrhosis is expected to occur according to host and viral factors.
Methods: Fibrosis progression was studied in 247 naive HCV patients using multiple regression analysis. The expected age at cirrhosis was calculated for each patient.
Results: Progression rate was 0.13, 0.14, 0.27, and 0.36 U of fibrosis/year for patients with age at infection ≤19, 20–24, 25–36 and ≥37 years, respectively. Age at infection above 37 years was independently associated with fast progression (rate>0.13; P=0.001). Body mass index >25 kg/m2 and alanine aminotransferase>3 × ULN are also possibly associated with faster progression. Based on progression rates, the expected age at cirrhosis is 65.4, 64.6, 64.8 and 69.4 years for age at infection ≤19, 20–24, 25–36, ≥37 years, respectively.
****Conclusion: Most HCV patients, if untreated, are expected to develop cirrhosis at about 65 years, irrespective of the age at infection.****
Thus, age itself seems even more important than age at infection for predicting the occurrence of liver cirrhosis. A specific active monitoring and therapeutic approach should be adopted in older patients to prevent progression to cirrhosis and its complications.
Introduction
Hepatitis C virus (HCV) infection has been identified as the main reason for end stage liver disease, approaching 50% of liver transplantations performed in the US.[1] Although several prospective studies have reported low rates of liver complications[2–6] after HCV infection, it is generally agreed that progression of liver disease in 20–30% of patients can lead to compensated and eventually decompensated cirrhosis or hepatocellular carcinoma or both.[7, 8] However, two main issues remain to be clarified. Once a patient with HCV infection has been identified, the first question is to know whether this patient will progress to liver complications, mainly cirrhosis. If yes, the second issue is to know how fast he will progress taking into account identified factors possibly associated with the rate of progression.
Based on the assessment of the rate of fibrosis progression, the aim of the present study was to determine when cirrhosis is expected to occur with regard to host and viral factors.
============================================================
Or maybe I am wrong and you did read the study, and disagree with all the experts and there statistical data. Or you think they are all part of a big pharma conspiracy ?
apache empty his tea cup all over keyboard.
Having a biopsy is a responsible and smart decision.
I didn't know that until 2001. It wasn't on my radar screen and I regret that greatly, although in my case I was lucky. There's simply no other way to do a reality check.
I swear my family doctor did and still does think following LFT's is enough.
I didn't know that until 2001. It wasn't on my radar screen and I regret that greatly, although in my case I was lucky. There's simply no other way to do a reality check.
I swear my family doctor did and still does think following LFT's is enough.
PA: PJ's only forty-nine, you know. You and I had almost a decade on her when we decided to bite the bullet.
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Yup. But the big difference was that we had a biopsy report in front of us to make that decision, at least I did. First biopsy at age 20 in fact. Again, deciding when to "bite the bullet" and treat can be subjective. Not knowing the facts to base the decision on is stupid, IMO.
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Yup. But the big difference was that we had a biopsy report in front of us to make that decision, at least I did. First biopsy at age 20 in fact. Again, deciding when to "bite the bullet" and treat can be subjective. Not knowing the facts to base the decision on is stupid, IMO.
Sad but true copyman but it is a personal choice we can only offer the knowledge we have learned in here by reading and studying as new information comes out...then it is up to the person to take it from there.
Why only a year ago nobody realized the real value of RVR on SVR - look now how much that has changed the world of hep science.
Good luck PJ - nobody is trying to berate some of us have been here for many years and we just have seen too much to not know how oftentimes it goes. I hope you open your mind to the new information but it you don't perhaps someday you will come back and ask this time for the people experienced in transplant at least - there are plenty of them on here that are WELL under 65.
Why only a year ago nobody realized the real value of RVR on SVR - look now how much that has changed the world of hep science.
Good luck PJ - nobody is trying to berate some of us have been here for many years and we just have seen too much to not know how oftentimes it goes. I hope you open your mind to the new information but it you don't perhaps someday you will come back and ask this time for the people experienced in transplant at least - there are plenty of them on here that are WELL under 65.
Actually, given her age and sparse history presented, she will probably be OK for the next 10 years at least, but that's a "probably" and not anything close to a certainty. Why anyone would want to gamble with their life that way when there is a relatively risk-free test available (liver biopsy) is beyond me. If the biopsy shows little or no damage, then let her wait if she chooses. Don't think anyone has a problem with that. But if the biopsy shows she has cirrhosis or close to it, then my guess is that she will ditch her naturopath (or whatever) faster than I can look up the correct spelling of natoropath LOL and get treated properly.
-- Jim
-- Jim
PJ's only forty-nine, you know. You and I had almost a decade on her when we decided to bite the bullet.
Lots can change in the next few years that will influence her to look on tx more favorably, starting with your study post. And if she does have a biopsy and is in the hands of a hepatologist, wouldn't that be a very positive development?
I never knew anyone personally who died of end stage or who was left debilitated by SOC. Both those experiences must have marked her deeply.
If anyone is ignorant, it's me, who started treatment like it was a contest I wanted to win.
Lots can change in the next few years that will influence her to look on tx more favorably, starting with your study post. And if she does have a biopsy and is in the hands of a hepatologist, wouldn't that be a very positive development?
I never knew anyone personally who died of end stage or who was left debilitated by SOC. Both those experiences must have marked her deeply.
If anyone is ignorant, it's me, who started treatment like it was a contest I wanted to win.
I hope i'm wrong but this person will be back here some day asking about help with cirrhosis or liver cancer. If some people only knew how horrible a death from liver failure is. It is probably one of the worst ways of dying.
In the Zen tradition of Buddhism there is a story of a smart and eager university professor who comes to an old Zen master for teachings. The Zen master offers him tea and upon the man's acceptance he pours the tea into the cup until it overflows. As the professor politely expresses his dismay at the overflowing cup, the Zen master keeps on pouring.
"A mind that is already full cannot take in anything new," the master explains. "Like this cup, you are full of opinions and preconceptions." In order to find happiness, he teaches his disciple, he must first empty his cup.
---------------
You came here asking for help, yet you are full of older opinions and preconceptions.
In other words, forget the outdated info for a minute and read the d*mn study :) Then make up your mind. No one is telling you to treat, we're just telling you to get your facts straight.
"A mind that is already full cannot take in anything new," the master explains. "Like this cup, you are full of opinions and preconceptions." In order to find happiness, he teaches his disciple, he must first empty his cup.
---------------
You came here asking for help, yet you are full of older opinions and preconceptions.
In other words, forget the outdated info for a minute and read the d*mn study :) Then make up your mind. No one is telling you to treat, we're just telling you to get your facts straight.
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