Aa
REACTION TO ANTIBIOCTICS?
hello,
first of all, i have sirossis of the liver, chf, adema, varisies of the throat, high bp,and a very prononced hernia. i just got out of the hospital about two weeks ago, i was being treated for a VERY bad infection in my right leg from a cut. the put me on antioctics via iv for eight days, plus various other meds, and them switched me to oral antibioctics two days before i was discharged from the hospital. these antibiotics seemed to make me very ill to the stomach, and i was and still am very week, and my stomach is still not right, and i get direrea often now, and had it all the time while on the meds.the antibiotics i was taking are, CIPROFLOXACIN (750mg) and AUGMENTIN (875 mg). i took two of each a day, for 14 days.my question is, is this a normal dosage for a severe infection, and i took this dosage for a total of 24 days. am i still feeling ill because of the meds and infection? is this normal? my leg is doing fine tho!...bob
first of all, i have sirossis of the liver, chf, adema, varisies of the throat, high bp,and a very prononced hernia. i just got out of the hospital about two weeks ago, i was being treated for a VERY bad infection in my right leg from a cut. the put me on antioctics via iv for eight days, plus various other meds, and them switched me to oral antibioctics two days before i was discharged from the hospital. these antibiotics seemed to make me very ill to the stomach, and i was and still am very week, and my stomach is still not right, and i get direrea often now, and had it all the time while on the meds.the antibiotics i was taking are, CIPROFLOXACIN (750mg) and AUGMENTIN (875 mg). i took two of each a day, for 14 days.my question is, is this a normal dosage for a severe infection, and i took this dosage for a total of 24 days. am i still feeling ill because of the meds and infection? is this normal? my leg is doing fine tho!...bob
red,
yes, they did find the bug. i dont know the name. they tried giving me certain antibiotics first, probably meds that wouldnt effect my liver too much, but they wouldnt touch the bug, and my white cell count was growing. so the doctor told me they had to use the big guns i guess, and it worked, but threw my body into next year! my white cell count was almost 25,000, by the time the antibiotics started to work. is 25,000 very high? all the doctor said to me is it was a serious infection, and my fluid retention, and liver probs didnt help matters. oh, they increased my lasix also. i normally take 160mg a day, they up'd it quite abit, but didnt say how much!...bob
yes, they did find the bug. i dont know the name. they tried giving me certain antibiotics first, probably meds that wouldnt effect my liver too much, but they wouldnt touch the bug, and my white cell count was growing. so the doctor told me they had to use the big guns i guess, and it worked, but threw my body into next year! my white cell count was almost 25,000, by the time the antibiotics started to work. is 25,000 very high? all the doctor said to me is it was a serious infection, and my fluid retention, and liver probs didnt help matters. oh, they increased my lasix also. i normally take 160mg a day, they up'd it quite abit, but didnt say how much!...bob
You posted a study that shows morphine is more dangerous than tramadol--in rats. Not just that, but they were over-dosed rats at that. Is this the best you can do to support your notion that tramadol causes liver damage ?
The lowest human dose (100mg) administered to a 1lb rat is equivalent to dosing a 160 lb person with 750 mg of tramadol. That's over 7 X higher than the lowest dose in humans. In fact, no clinical benefit is shown beyond 300 mg per day in humans.
HUMANS. What happens in a rat is not a reliable predictor of similar effects in humans, especially when the rats are od'ed on tramadol and morhine in this study you posted. And it is wrong to use data from an animal study and make no mention of this leaving the reader to assume they were done in humans trials.
You said:
"My research into tramadol came about because my enzymes were 5 times above normal and returned to normal when I discontinued its use.
Again, my GP said it was safe for the liver..again, the research shows it hastens fibrosis.
Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana."
Here's the truth: There are no studies showing tramadol causing fibrosis in humans. There is nothing to indicate that tramadol interferes with liver function any more than putting together an arts and crafts project with cement glue and enamel paint.
Your comments about marijuana, opiods, and alcohol also do not point out the extreme dosages and chronic use in those studies. Abuse, not casual use of these substances can cause documented harm. Whereas casual use of alcohol or marijauna have never been shown to create irreversible liver damage when used occasionally .
You said:
"Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana."
Again misleading as the inference you make leaves out the mention of the extremly high doses used, using animals in some studies and not testing in humans , along with the the length of the dosing used in these studies.
You said: "even though tramadol does not cause as mush damage as some opiods, theres mounting evidence that the cellular changes it creates aren't that different from those alcohol and such do."
All this means above is that the abuse of drugs and alcohol affect the liver with similar biophysical and chemcial changes when those substances are abused over a period of time.
If there are no studies that demonstrate a negative affect on fibrosis progression as a result of its use then those statements shouldn't be brought up unless the methodology of the study is disclosed.
Mr Liver
The lowest human dose (100mg) administered to a 1lb rat is equivalent to dosing a 160 lb person with 750 mg of tramadol. That's over 7 X higher than the lowest dose in humans. In fact, no clinical benefit is shown beyond 300 mg per day in humans.
HUMANS. What happens in a rat is not a reliable predictor of similar effects in humans, especially when the rats are od'ed on tramadol and morhine in this study you posted. And it is wrong to use data from an animal study and make no mention of this leaving the reader to assume they were done in humans trials.
You said:
"My research into tramadol came about because my enzymes were 5 times above normal and returned to normal when I discontinued its use.
Again, my GP said it was safe for the liver..again, the research shows it hastens fibrosis.
Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana."
Here's the truth: There are no studies showing tramadol causing fibrosis in humans. There is nothing to indicate that tramadol interferes with liver function any more than putting together an arts and crafts project with cement glue and enamel paint.
Your comments about marijuana, opiods, and alcohol also do not point out the extreme dosages and chronic use in those studies. Abuse, not casual use of these substances can cause documented harm. Whereas casual use of alcohol or marijauna have never been shown to create irreversible liver damage when used occasionally .
You said:
"Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana."
Again misleading as the inference you make leaves out the mention of the extremly high doses used, using animals in some studies and not testing in humans , along with the the length of the dosing used in these studies.
You said: "even though tramadol does not cause as mush damage as some opiods, theres mounting evidence that the cellular changes it creates aren't that different from those alcohol and such do."
All this means above is that the abuse of drugs and alcohol affect the liver with similar biophysical and chemcial changes when those substances are abused over a period of time.
If there are no studies that demonstrate a negative affect on fibrosis progression as a result of its use then those statements shouldn't be brought up unless the methodology of the study is disclosed.
Mr Liver
properly prescribed may lessen the risk, but for instance in my case I was "properly prescribed 400 mg a day, enough to double my enzymes and cause seuzures.
even though tramadol does not cause as mush damage as some opiods, theres mounting evidence that the cellular changes it creates aren't that different from those alcohol and such do.
just look in pub med for any medication and the term liver damage or enymes and buches of studies suggest damage is being done.
here's but one of the many..
Liver and kidney toxicity in chronic use of opioids: an experimental long term treatment model.Atici S, Cinel I, Cinel L, Doruk N, Eskandari G, Oral U.
Department of Anesthesiology and Reanimation, Mersin University, School of Medicine, Mersin, Turkey. ***@****
In this study, histopathological and biochemical changes due to chronic usage of morphine or tramadol in liver and kidney were assessed in rats. Thirty male Wistar rats (180-220 g) were included and divided into three groups. Normal saline (1 ml) was given intraperitoneally as placebo in the control group (n = 10). Morphine group (n = 10) received morphine intraperitoneally at a dose of 4, 8, 10 mg/kg/day in the first, second and the third ten days of the study, respectively. Tramadol group (n = 10), received the drug intraperitoneally at doses of 20, 40 and 80 mg/kg/day in the first, second and the third ten days of the study, respectively. Aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), creatinin, blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and malondialdehyde (MDA) levels were measured in the serum. Liver and kidney specimens were evaluated by light microscopy. Serum ALT, AST, LDH, BUN and creatinin levels were significantly higher in morphine group compared to the control group. Serum LDH, BUN and creatinin levels were significantly increased in the morphine group compared to the tramadol group. The mean MDA level was significantly higher in morphine group compared to the tramadol and control groups (P < 0.05). Light microscopy revealed severe centrolobular congestion and focal necrosis in the liver of morphine and tramadol groups, but perivenular necrosis was present only in the morphine group. The main histopathologic finding was vacuolization in tubular cells in morphine and tramadol groups. Our findings pointed out the risk of increased lipid peroxidation, hepatic and renal damage due to long term use of opioids, especially morphine. Although opioids are reported to be effective in pain management, their toxic effects should be kept in mind during chronic usage.
end
note some of the damage is due to the sick liver to begin with, so we are in a catch 22 until our livers return to normal.
even though tramadol does not cause as mush damage as some opiods, theres mounting evidence that the cellular changes it creates aren't that different from those alcohol and such do.
just look in pub med for any medication and the term liver damage or enymes and buches of studies suggest damage is being done.
here's but one of the many..
Liver and kidney toxicity in chronic use of opioids: an experimental long term treatment model.Atici S, Cinel I, Cinel L, Doruk N, Eskandari G, Oral U.
Department of Anesthesiology and Reanimation, Mersin University, School of Medicine, Mersin, Turkey. ***@****
In this study, histopathological and biochemical changes due to chronic usage of morphine or tramadol in liver and kidney were assessed in rats. Thirty male Wistar rats (180-220 g) were included and divided into three groups. Normal saline (1 ml) was given intraperitoneally as placebo in the control group (n = 10). Morphine group (n = 10) received morphine intraperitoneally at a dose of 4, 8, 10 mg/kg/day in the first, second and the third ten days of the study, respectively. Tramadol group (n = 10), received the drug intraperitoneally at doses of 20, 40 and 80 mg/kg/day in the first, second and the third ten days of the study, respectively. Aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), creatinin, blood urea nitrogen (BUN) and malondialdehyde (MDA) levels were measured in the serum. Liver and kidney specimens were evaluated by light microscopy. Serum ALT, AST, LDH, BUN and creatinin levels were significantly higher in morphine group compared to the control group. Serum LDH, BUN and creatinin levels were significantly increased in the morphine group compared to the tramadol group. The mean MDA level was significantly higher in morphine group compared to the tramadol and control groups (P < 0.05). Light microscopy revealed severe centrolobular congestion and focal necrosis in the liver of morphine and tramadol groups, but perivenular necrosis was present only in the morphine group. The main histopathologic finding was vacuolization in tubular cells in morphine and tramadol groups. Our findings pointed out the risk of increased lipid peroxidation, hepatic and renal damage due to long term use of opioids, especially morphine. Although opioids are reported to be effective in pain management, their toxic effects should be kept in mind during chronic usage.
end
note some of the damage is due to the sick liver to begin with, so we are in a catch 22 until our livers return to normal.
Did you say you had decompensated cirrosis? But any way you did the right thing. Any infection of the legs should be treated aggressively. and they did. Most likely you will have other infections in the legs. You should probably if possible keep a back up supply to use. I have a similiar problem and I know if I don't treat it early it will get worse.Did they culture the bug?
Chris (aka Red)
Chris (aka Red)
hi,
well im usually very tolerant when it comes to drugs or alcohol, most of the reason for my bad liver, i could drink, drink, and drink.... and still function fairly well, but me liver was taking a pounding! i dont mind a med that will ease the pain and help me sleep, but for some reason, the tramadol just wiped me out! oh well, dont need it now, havent in weeks so, its ok...bob
well im usually very tolerant when it comes to drugs or alcohol, most of the reason for my bad liver, i could drink, drink, and drink.... and still function fairly well, but me liver was taking a pounding! i dont mind a med that will ease the pain and help me sleep, but for some reason, the tramadol just wiped me out! oh well, dont need it now, havent in weeks so, its ok...bob
"the research shows it hastens fibrosis"
Can you cite me studies that show faster progression of liver fibrosis as a result of prescribed tramadol in humans ? I have never heard of this occurring when properly prescribed tramadol was taken---even for extended periods.
Mr Liver
Can you cite me studies that show faster progression of liver fibrosis as a result of prescribed tramadol in humans ? I have never heard of this occurring when properly prescribed tramadol was taken---even for extended periods.
Mr Liver
I'm grateful your leg is better...and just so you know, not suggesting you cut short your course on that, just that future wise you run things past the liver specialist.
My research into tramadol came about because my enzymes were 5 times above normal and returned to normal when I discontinued its use.
Again, my GP said it was safe for the liver..again, the research shows it hastens fibrosis.
Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana.
So, obviously if pain is acute, and ice, rest, heat, massagae or other physical therapies don't suffice then you have to allieviate with a pain killer. Just be aware that less is best, and the sooner it's none, the better it will be for your longer term liver survival.
mb
My research into tramadol came about because my enzymes were 5 times above normal and returned to normal when I discontinued its use.
Again, my GP said it was safe for the liver..again, the research shows it hastens fibrosis.
Many of the pain killers do change liver chemistry and weaken it in ways similar to the effects of alcohol or marijuana.
So, obviously if pain is acute, and ice, rest, heat, massagae or other physical therapies don't suffice then you have to allieviate with a pain killer. Just be aware that less is best, and the sooner it's none, the better it will be for your longer term liver survival.
mb
Tramadol is what they put me on - and it doesn't do ANYTHING but make the pain go away for me.
It doesn't give me head spins or nothing like that... WOW!
But I do realize different medicines affect different folks differently.
HUGS --- hope you feel much better SOON!
Meki
It doesn't give me head spins or nothing like that... WOW!
But I do realize different medicines affect different folks differently.
HUGS --- hope you feel much better SOON!
Meki
ty u all very much. my regular doctor (gp) said the only meds i should take for pain is tylenol!!! the docs in the hospital would NOT give me tylenol for pain, but instead gave my a pain killer named TRAMADOL, ever six hours as needed (50mg). they gave it to me around the clock for ten days, and it put me in la-la land! they gave me a script for another 30 days when i was discharged, but i have not used it, it makes me fel toooo screwed up! ive been going to the wound center for 3 weeks now for follow up, and the leg is doing great. they keep it wrapped from my toes to my knee with a medicated wrap, and then two layers of ace bandage, i go back this friday to have it removed and get measured for a stocking to wear, to help protect my leg and push access fluid up towards my upper torso, away from my calve and foot..bob
Pshaw... A pretty toe nail - of course.... Painted bright blue...
Hector - you're just amazing.
Hector - you're just amazing.
if you have a good hepatologist you will be well ahead of the game.
I've had to take 3 antibiotics since being diagnosed.
In each case the prescribing doctors said they were fine.
In the last case both my urologist AND my oby/gyn assured me the drug was fine even with liver disease.
I checked with my Hepatologist anyway...just to be safe....and he said NO WAY should I be on ANY Amount of that drug.
So for future reference, many doctors are only slightly aware of the way a compromised liver may react to an otherwise considered safe drug. Even taking tylenol can have serious reprocussion for us, serious enough that most should not be on it.
Even if in an ER, or emergency situation, I think I'd be tempted from now on to put a call into my liver doc, and force them to reach him before deciding.
Some of the new antibiotics are very exotic, and may work well under normal conditions...however....even one dose can prove fatal on a few of them.
Not to scare you, but it's true.
One example: a common antifungal pill (for nail fungus) has only 2 pills that you take....and can, and does cause liver failure. Why it is still on the market is beyond me.
I mean, which would you rather have, a healthy liver or a pretty toenail?
It doesn't take much when it's the wrong molecule to really upset the apple cart when the liver isn't working well.
MB
I've had to take 3 antibiotics since being diagnosed.
In each case the prescribing doctors said they were fine.
In the last case both my urologist AND my oby/gyn assured me the drug was fine even with liver disease.
I checked with my Hepatologist anyway...just to be safe....and he said NO WAY should I be on ANY Amount of that drug.
So for future reference, many doctors are only slightly aware of the way a compromised liver may react to an otherwise considered safe drug. Even taking tylenol can have serious reprocussion for us, serious enough that most should not be on it.
Even if in an ER, or emergency situation, I think I'd be tempted from now on to put a call into my liver doc, and force them to reach him before deciding.
Some of the new antibiotics are very exotic, and may work well under normal conditions...however....even one dose can prove fatal on a few of them.
Not to scare you, but it's true.
One example: a common antifungal pill (for nail fungus) has only 2 pills that you take....and can, and does cause liver failure. Why it is still on the market is beyond me.
I mean, which would you rather have, a healthy liver or a pretty toenail?
It doesn't take much when it's the wrong molecule to really upset the apple cart when the liver isn't working well.
MB
Hope this may help...
If you continue to have diarrhea I would consult your doctor as prolonged diahhera can be potentially serious.
Have tried these? Flora Q 1 tab each day.
"Flora-Q is a gluten-free dietary supplement in capsule form that contains a unique blend of four probiotic strains – “friendly” bacteria that help maintain intestinal microbial balance".
I think they are about $40 for a months supply.
Both antibiotics can cause diarrhea.
Also note AUGMENTIN is bad for your liver.
CIPROFLOXACIN SIDE EFFECTS: The most frequent side effects of ciprofloxacin include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, rash, headache, and restlessness.
Many antibiotics, including ciprofloxacin, can alter the normal bacteria in the colon and encourage overgrowth of a bacterium responsible for the development of inflammation of the colon (pseudomembranous colitis). Patients who develop signs of pseudomembranous colitis after starting ciprofloxacin (diarrhea, fever, abdominal pain, and possibly shock) should contact their physician.
AUGMENTIN
SIDE EFFECTS: Diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting may occur during the first few days as your body adjusts to the medication. Take with food to minimize stomach upset. If any of these effects persist or worsen, contact your doctor or pharmacist promptly. Tell your doctor immediately if any of these highly unlikely but very serious side effects occur: easy bruising or bleeding, persistent sore throat or fever, dark urine, persistent nausea or vomiting, severe stomach/abdominal pain, yellowing eyes or skin. This medication may rarely cause a severe intestinal condition (pseudomembranous colitis) due to a resistant bacteria. This condition may occur weeks after treatment has stopped. Do not use anti-diarrhea products or narcotic pain medications if you have the following symptoms because these products may make them worse. Tell your doctor immediately if you develop: persistent diarrhea, severe abdominal or stomach pain/cramping, or blood/mucus in your stool.
Augmentin and other penicillin-like medicines are generally safe; however, anyone with liver, kidney, or blood disorders is at increased risk when using Augmentin. Alternative choices may be available to your doctor.
During mild cases of diarrhea, diluted fruit juices, soft drinks containing sugar, sports drinks such as Gatorade, and water can be used to prevent dehydration. Caffeine and lactose containing dairy products should be temporarily avoided since they can aggravate diarrhea. If there is no nausea and vomiting, solid foods should be continued. Foods that usually are well tolerated during a diarrheal illness include rice, cereal, bananas, potatoes, and lactose free products.
Best of luck.
Hector
If you continue to have diarrhea I would consult your doctor as prolonged diahhera can be potentially serious.
Have tried these? Flora Q 1 tab each day.
"Flora-Q is a gluten-free dietary supplement in capsule form that contains a unique blend of four probiotic strains – “friendly” bacteria that help maintain intestinal microbial balance".
I think they are about $40 for a months supply.
Both antibiotics can cause diarrhea.
Also note AUGMENTIN is bad for your liver.
CIPROFLOXACIN SIDE EFFECTS: The most frequent side effects of ciprofloxacin include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, rash, headache, and restlessness.
Many antibiotics, including ciprofloxacin, can alter the normal bacteria in the colon and encourage overgrowth of a bacterium responsible for the development of inflammation of the colon (pseudomembranous colitis). Patients who develop signs of pseudomembranous colitis after starting ciprofloxacin (diarrhea, fever, abdominal pain, and possibly shock) should contact their physician.
AUGMENTIN
SIDE EFFECTS: Diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting may occur during the first few days as your body adjusts to the medication. Take with food to minimize stomach upset. If any of these effects persist or worsen, contact your doctor or pharmacist promptly. Tell your doctor immediately if any of these highly unlikely but very serious side effects occur: easy bruising or bleeding, persistent sore throat or fever, dark urine, persistent nausea or vomiting, severe stomach/abdominal pain, yellowing eyes or skin. This medication may rarely cause a severe intestinal condition (pseudomembranous colitis) due to a resistant bacteria. This condition may occur weeks after treatment has stopped. Do not use anti-diarrhea products or narcotic pain medications if you have the following symptoms because these products may make them worse. Tell your doctor immediately if you develop: persistent diarrhea, severe abdominal or stomach pain/cramping, or blood/mucus in your stool.
Augmentin and other penicillin-like medicines are generally safe; however, anyone with liver, kidney, or blood disorders is at increased risk when using Augmentin. Alternative choices may be available to your doctor.
During mild cases of diarrhea, diluted fruit juices, soft drinks containing sugar, sports drinks such as Gatorade, and water can be used to prevent dehydration. Caffeine and lactose containing dairy products should be temporarily avoided since they can aggravate diarrhea. If there is no nausea and vomiting, solid foods should be continued. Foods that usually are well tolerated during a diarrheal illness include rice, cereal, bananas, potatoes, and lactose free products.
Best of luck.
Hector
HECTORSF,
ty for the info. i just thought that 3250mg (both antibiotics combined), a day, for 24 days, is alittle tough on a body, even a good body! i look fwd to u sending me the info on the meds for the diahhera! the over the counter meds dont do much...hope ur well...bob
ty for the info. i just thought that 3250mg (both antibiotics combined), a day, for 24 days, is alittle tough on a body, even a good body! i look fwd to u sending me the info on the meds for the diahhera! the over the counter meds dont do much...hope ur well...bob
Sorry to hear you have decompensated cirrhosis. I'm glad they were able to stop the infection and your leg is okay. I have taken Cipro also. Yes they will make you sick to your stomach. Uh! Definitely will cause diahhera. It kills off the good bacteria in your digestive system as it is killing the infection. When I get home I can give you the name of an over the counter med my doctor suggested to ease the diahhera. Also being weak after a serious infection is to be expected. It takes awhile for your body to bounce back for anyone. For someone with cirrhosis even more so.
If you have cirrhosis you want to to use antibiotics to kill off and infection. It's the lesser of two evils.
I was taking 750 MG per week but as a preventative measure so I'm not really sure about dosage for an active infection.
Others here may know about dosage.
Rest up and take it easy.
Hector
If you have cirrhosis you want to to use antibiotics to kill off and infection. It's the lesser of two evils.
I was taking 750 MG per week but as a preventative measure so I'm not really sure about dosage for an active infection.
Others here may know about dosage.
Rest up and take it easy.
Hector
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