Aa
Red spots...
Hi I was wondering if anyone has experienced any red spots that look like red beauty marks. They are not raised or sore or anything. I noticed them on my stomach and chest and maybe a few on my back. They are small like penmark sized little red dots. I read that sometimes this is a sign of liver damage...help. I am not on meds yet. I am waiting to see specialist on wed the 10th for the first time to see what we are going to do.
female
3a vl 450,000.
Thank you
female
3a vl 450,000.
Thank you
I have the red spots on my eye lids and they just showed up overnight.I read wehre it may be a form of liver damage but isn't that caused by drinking alot? I don't drink very often and I am not on meds. Over the past few months I have been getting the small red dots on my face just under my eyes and on my high cheek bone underneath my eye. But this morning when I woke up, I was shocked to se them covering my eye lids with a few spider viens going somewhere in there. What is causing this? I mean if this happened overnight, what is to be expected in the near future? My husband and I are trying to get pregnant, I got sick yesterday after eating my lunch and I took a pregnancy test but it came out negative. I have alot of stress at this time, maybe that is the cause of it. HELP ME PLEASE!
Ina ask me............what do you think?............. Think me? you know me better then that, hurts to even try.
Then..........just shake your head............ People do that to you to? i've never quite figured why people do that to me. I just shake back and go on.
Then..........just shake your head............ People do that to you to? i've never quite figured why people do that to me. I just shake back and go on.
tn: thanks for the corrections; Castillo, et '04 is pretty explicit "HCV RNA of negative polarity was found in the liver of 48 (84.2%) of these 57 patients with occult HCV infection."
Their discussion of laboratory techniques highlights the difficulties involved in measuring such minutes amounts of protein and RNA. When the first persistent RNA papers surfaced in '04 I thought there was a good chance they would be thrown out as spurious laboratory misreadings (scientists love to pop each other's balloons) However, this has not happened. The fact that they have been corroborated by Mayo clinic researchers (Radkowski) also carries some weight.
Of course, the question of how infectious/functional/threatening the remaining virus may be remains open. And yes, your qualification on SVR seems more accurate, though I'm doubtful that any residual virus is either a significant health threat or responsive to treatment.
ina: your points about breakthrough are puzzling indeed; per standard protocol, both you and ldvbygod should have dropped out and given up. Of course your tx was anything but standard. I hope those who find they *have* to continue tx against improbable odds because of advanced disease are encouraged by your results!
cuteus: I'm not sure there are answers to many of the questions you raise. And yes, the labels persistent/occult don't seem to be used very consistently. However, the details of each paper usually spell out whether they're talking about RNA in (a) those who have never treated, have no antibodies and no serum RNA vs (b) post-SVRs who have antibodies but no serum RNA.
Their discussion of laboratory techniques highlights the difficulties involved in measuring such minutes amounts of protein and RNA. When the first persistent RNA papers surfaced in '04 I thought there was a good chance they would be thrown out as spurious laboratory misreadings (scientists love to pop each other's balloons) However, this has not happened. The fact that they have been corroborated by Mayo clinic researchers (Radkowski) also carries some weight.
Of course, the question of how infectious/functional/threatening the remaining virus may be remains open. And yes, your qualification on SVR seems more accurate, though I'm doubtful that any residual virus is either a significant health threat or responsive to treatment.
ina: your points about breakthrough are puzzling indeed; per standard protocol, both you and ldvbygod should have dropped out and given up. Of course your tx was anything but standard. I hope those who find they *have* to continue tx against improbable odds because of advanced disease are encouraged by your results!
cuteus: I'm not sure there are answers to many of the questions you raise. And yes, the labels persistent/occult don't seem to be used very consistently. However, the details of each paper usually spell out whether they're talking about RNA in (a) those who have never treated, have no antibodies and no serum RNA vs (b) post-SVRs who have antibodies but no serum RNA.
Hi gal, you sound busy? So i guess thats a good thing. I'm doing ok, working hard at keeping this forum out of the gutter. But got my work cut out for me...Take care now ya hear
you said.........I think the olive oil did the trick, virgin kind.
Is that for real? Gonna go by that stuff by the gallon. Its called the virgin kind right? I know what my wife will be drinking. Think a quart a day will do it?
Is that for real? Gonna go by that stuff by the gallon. Its called the virgin kind right? I know what my wife will be drinking. Think a quart a day will do it?
First, David, thank you for clarifying what is tumbling in your head on the persistent hcv in SVRs, it helps to know.
Funny y0u should post the above article since I came accross it, discussed with the one that found no hcv in liver or PBMC and one other article, but of course, I went for the SVR one, for personal interest.
I am going to copy the post I wrote above the initial 'occult' thread, because it has a link to an immunology article, that I found both intriguing and hard to read, but I find the reading fascinating in many ways. I thought it might shed some light on how are system will be handling HCV post tx.
cuteus
05/05/2006
C2 continue to persistance issue? this seems to be an empty thread, so I will post here.
Willing; I agree with 98% of the last post in the thread below, pretty good summary.
tnguy; I definetely do not have the debating capabilities of the 'big' brains involved in this discussion, but I can throw in a few morsels.
When I glanced at the Pham abstract, with its limited information, it does seem to address mostly post tx subjects, but even though it stated "The findings show that HCV RNA was carried in the convalescent-phase sera and/or PBMC in all 16 individuals investigated." it added "Importantly, traces of the HCV RNA negative strand, suggesting progressing virus replication, were detected in the majority of mitogen-stimulated PBMC, including four samples collected 5 years after recovery. Sequencing of the HCV 5' untranslated region fragment revealed genotype 1b in four of nine individuals examined and genotypes 1a and 2a in three and two patients, respectively."
Does it mean that negative strands were not found in the other 7?
As for occult and persistance being only a matter of semantics, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't some of the subjects in the occult issue, only positive in the liver? meaning that no antibodies were ever created by their system? Does it not mean that for some reason, the virus settled in the liver and never went into the serum, thus avoiding detection by the immune system? or that the system never developed antibodies for some other reason? I know some had detectable antibodies with no VL, but others had a negative in both tests? In that case, their immune system never develop the cells to attack the virus, or the antibodies completely dissappeared from their blood, while the virus remained in hepatic tissue/pbmc?
I recently glanced at a this immunology study(http://www1.od.nih.gov/oir/demystifyingMed/Dm06/HepatitisC/Rehermann-Nascimbeni.pdf), quite technical for me, and it seems to indicate that there are different 'steps' taken by our systems in the acute and chronic stage. Then we read the studies that detail what cells are created while on tx as opposed to spontaneous clearance immune cells, and it seems that our own bodies might be making a distinction bt spotaneous clearance reaction and SVR by tx. Could it not be possible that one manner of eradication/suppression is more effective than the other, in the post tx period? If SVRs are showing negative strands, post tx(and it does not seem like all of them are), is their immune response actively suppressing or maybe still eradicating? That would not seem possible in those with the 'occult' virus, unless we know whether their blood was also tested for immune cell response. I don't know if this reasoning of mine is making sense, but even though it could be semantics difference in one aspect, it does not seem to be in some important others.
It would seem the ones with the occult virus, and no tx ever, would be more at risk for HCC and other complications, since their system is not addressing HCV presence as it is happening with SVRs, but it is all guessing until one of us goes for PCR testing in several of our organs/tissues.
I am not completely sold in HCV being gone from every tissue in all SVRs, but I do believe some do achieve the total eradication, though.
If any of you come accross recruiting of SVRs for search of persistent HCV, let me know. Like I said before, I am game for that one.
Would any one else enlist in a study biopsing extra hepatic tissue for HCV presence?
I might draw the line at brain bx, but not completely sure.
Funny y0u should post the above article since I came accross it, discussed with the one that found no hcv in liver or PBMC and one other article, but of course, I went for the SVR one, for personal interest.
I am going to copy the post I wrote above the initial 'occult' thread, because it has a link to an immunology article, that I found both intriguing and hard to read, but I find the reading fascinating in many ways. I thought it might shed some light on how are system will be handling HCV post tx.
cuteus
05/05/2006
C2 continue to persistance issue? this seems to be an empty thread, so I will post here.
Willing; I agree with 98% of the last post in the thread below, pretty good summary.
tnguy; I definetely do not have the debating capabilities of the 'big' brains involved in this discussion, but I can throw in a few morsels.
When I glanced at the Pham abstract, with its limited information, it does seem to address mostly post tx subjects, but even though it stated "The findings show that HCV RNA was carried in the convalescent-phase sera and/or PBMC in all 16 individuals investigated." it added "Importantly, traces of the HCV RNA negative strand, suggesting progressing virus replication, were detected in the majority of mitogen-stimulated PBMC, including four samples collected 5 years after recovery. Sequencing of the HCV 5' untranslated region fragment revealed genotype 1b in four of nine individuals examined and genotypes 1a and 2a in three and two patients, respectively."
Does it mean that negative strands were not found in the other 7?
As for occult and persistance being only a matter of semantics, correct me if I am wrong, but aren't some of the subjects in the occult issue, only positive in the liver? meaning that no antibodies were ever created by their system? Does it not mean that for some reason, the virus settled in the liver and never went into the serum, thus avoiding detection by the immune system? or that the system never developed antibodies for some other reason? I know some had detectable antibodies with no VL, but others had a negative in both tests? In that case, their immune system never develop the cells to attack the virus, or the antibodies completely dissappeared from their blood, while the virus remained in hepatic tissue/pbmc?
I recently glanced at a this immunology study(http://www1.od.nih.gov/oir/demystifyingMed/Dm06/HepatitisC/Rehermann-Nascimbeni.pdf), quite technical for me, and it seems to indicate that there are different 'steps' taken by our systems in the acute and chronic stage. Then we read the studies that detail what cells are created while on tx as opposed to spontaneous clearance immune cells, and it seems that our own bodies might be making a distinction bt spotaneous clearance reaction and SVR by tx. Could it not be possible that one manner of eradication/suppression is more effective than the other, in the post tx period? If SVRs are showing negative strands, post tx(and it does not seem like all of them are), is their immune response actively suppressing or maybe still eradicating? That would not seem possible in those with the 'occult' virus, unless we know whether their blood was also tested for immune cell response. I don't know if this reasoning of mine is making sense, but even though it could be semantics difference in one aspect, it does not seem to be in some important others.
It would seem the ones with the occult virus, and no tx ever, would be more at risk for HCC and other complications, since their system is not addressing HCV presence as it is happening with SVRs, but it is all guessing until one of us goes for PCR testing in several of our organs/tissues.
I am not completely sold in HCV being gone from every tissue in all SVRs, but I do believe some do achieve the total eradication, though.
If any of you come accross recruiting of SVRs for search of persistent HCV, let me know. Like I said before, I am game for that one.
Would any one else enlist in a study biopsing extra hepatic tissue for HCV presence?
I might draw the line at brain bx, but not completely sure.
Eisbein said: Getting ready for what might be coming my way :)
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OK, I'll make THIS my last comment since Forgot to thank you for the Olive oil tip -- sounds a lot cheaper than my Creme de Nuit :)
FWIW, I'm back on topical Elidel for a while and it seems to be doing a good job clearing up the face. Did you discuss Elidel with your doc or try it? That I'm happy to discuss.
======================================
Just to clarify from the last post...regarding the Sweedish study. No one here, to my knowledge (including Bill) was on a high dose riba regimen as studied by the Sweeds. The Sweeds used doses up to I believe 3,400 mg/day and that's where this whole riba saturation issue seems to come more into play. They also used a special blood test (HPLC) to monitor riba levels that is not available in this country other than maybe in a few research labs. Also, I don't think they had riba saturation data when their initial pilot study was published.
------------------------------------
OK, I'll make THIS my last comment since Forgot to thank you for the Olive oil tip -- sounds a lot cheaper than my Creme de Nuit :)
FWIW, I'm back on topical Elidel for a while and it seems to be doing a good job clearing up the face. Did you discuss Elidel with your doc or try it? That I'm happy to discuss.
======================================
Just to clarify from the last post...regarding the Sweedish study. No one here, to my knowledge (including Bill) was on a high dose riba regimen as studied by the Sweeds. The Sweeds used doses up to I believe 3,400 mg/day and that's where this whole riba saturation issue seems to come more into play. They also used a special blood test (HPLC) to monitor riba levels that is not available in this country other than maybe in a few research labs. Also, I don't think they had riba saturation data when their initial pilot study was published.
Eisbein said: For example we all know, that you have great faith in the Swedish Lindhal study of 10, that dosed them all with 2000 mg Riba a day, but you neglected to post the study by the same Lindhal group, that talked about Riba saturation.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have mentioned the riba saturation issue several times and even suggested the alternative of dosing three times a day as in the Sweedish study. My understanding is that the saturation issue only comes into play for very high doses of riba and even in Sweeden they sometimes only dosed twice a day. In regard to normal dosing, saturation is less of an issue and I've been told the time of dosing is unimportant and have both passed tht along and adhered to it personally.
Bill, received his information from his own doctor not from me and I assumed whatever dosing schedule he was on got from his doctor. Further, the dose of ribavirin Bill took was not very high compared to the Sweedish study and I doubt very much if he would have lost any riba by dosing twice a day. I have also gone out of my way -- over and over again -- to say that the Sweedish study was a very small pilot study and that no one should follow my lead regarding ribavirin without doing a lot of research and talking to their doctor. My doctor was aware and approved of everything I did during treatmentI don't know how many times I mentioned I ended up in the ER from my initial high dose. .
I try and present both sides of the story whenever I can, and recently starting mentioning a new study that seems to contradictt the Sweedes regarding hemoglobin levels, even though the Sweede's version makes more sense to me. I wish others would try as hard to present the other side of the story on issues they seem to champion. I see LITTLE of that here.
As far as not mentioning my doctor's name, you are well aware why as I have discussed this before in answer to I believe the same question asked by you month's ago. But briefly -- I would only mention my doc's -- or any doc's name -- in the context of an article or study he published. For his privacy and other reasons I -- like many here -- would never mention my doctor's name in the context of a doctor to patient talk. And for my own personal reasons, I would not mention my doctor's name for my own privacy issues.
Ina, a lot of this is rehash of old stuff. I try my best here as hopefully most of us do and have always urged people to check multiple sources -- internet, studies, and doctors before making treatment decisions. If they dont have time for that, then they should go with what their doctor says. I have seem A LOT of misinformation posted here almost every day but I still find this place valuable. Again, anyone who doesn't cross check things they might use for treatment decisions is using the group incorrectly.
Forgive the long wind, but I want this to be my last comment on these matters.
-- Jim
-- Jim
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have mentioned the riba saturation issue several times and even suggested the alternative of dosing three times a day as in the Sweedish study. My understanding is that the saturation issue only comes into play for very high doses of riba and even in Sweeden they sometimes only dosed twice a day. In regard to normal dosing, saturation is less of an issue and I've been told the time of dosing is unimportant and have both passed tht along and adhered to it personally.
Bill, received his information from his own doctor not from me and I assumed whatever dosing schedule he was on got from his doctor. Further, the dose of ribavirin Bill took was not very high compared to the Sweedish study and I doubt very much if he would have lost any riba by dosing twice a day. I have also gone out of my way -- over and over again -- to say that the Sweedish study was a very small pilot study and that no one should follow my lead regarding ribavirin without doing a lot of research and talking to their doctor. My doctor was aware and approved of everything I did during treatmentI don't know how many times I mentioned I ended up in the ER from my initial high dose. .
I try and present both sides of the story whenever I can, and recently starting mentioning a new study that seems to contradictt the Sweedes regarding hemoglobin levels, even though the Sweede's version makes more sense to me. I wish others would try as hard to present the other side of the story on issues they seem to champion. I see LITTLE of that here.
As far as not mentioning my doctor's name, you are well aware why as I have discussed this before in answer to I believe the same question asked by you month's ago. But briefly -- I would only mention my doc's -- or any doc's name -- in the context of an article or study he published. For his privacy and other reasons I -- like many here -- would never mention my doctor's name in the context of a doctor to patient talk. And for my own personal reasons, I would not mention my doctor's name for my own privacy issues.
Ina, a lot of this is rehash of old stuff. I try my best here as hopefully most of us do and have always urged people to check multiple sources -- internet, studies, and doctors before making treatment decisions. If they dont have time for that, then they should go with what their doctor says. I have seem A LOT of misinformation posted here almost every day but I still find this place valuable. Again, anyone who doesn't cross check things they might use for treatment decisions is using the group incorrectly.
Forgive the long wind, but I want this to be my last comment on these matters.
-- Jim
-- Jim
Said: Then that will see me to the end of tx
AH does THAT SOUND WONDERFUL to say or what? If anything...that must be spurring you on...man oh man I can't believe you are almost done already!
This disease seems to go so slow but in reality wow...it's hard to believe it's almost up!
you are going to be FINE I just know it!
AH does THAT SOUND WONDERFUL to say or what? If anything...that must be spurring you on...man oh man I can't believe you are almost done already!
This disease seems to go so slow but in reality wow...it's hard to believe it's almost up!
you are going to be FINE I just know it!
Beagle:
Did you make a decision on whether to do the transfusion or not? How are the counts holding up? More importantly are you still feeling pretty good? Dale
Did you make a decision on whether to do the transfusion or not? How are the counts holding up? More importantly are you still feeling pretty good? Dale
I have those dots all over my stomach as well, I've had them for the 6 or 8 months. The only way they affected me was not to go into a hot spring ( didn't want to scare everyone out of the water )
I still get the fever off and on, and the sweating at night wears me down too.
What was your HGB 2 weeks ago?
BEAGLE
What was your HGB 2 weeks ago?
BEAGLE
On your keyboard: The llama feels the helpers are not playing enough and want the helpers to play more.
Thank you both for responding. Nice to meet you and thanks for welcoming me. They are def not spider like. They are pin point and red. I will just wait to see what the doctor says. Every little thing that pops up freaks me out..I think I am making myself crazy. Good luck to you both and talk to you soon. :)
Glad you have so much faith in me clearing. Did you see the thread above by brokerboy who relapsed and was a 2B? It doesn't make me feel to good to hear this. In the last couple of months I've seen a few 2's that didn't clear this bug and it has me a bit down. I hope I'm one of the few to clear this. How are you doing? Are you going to answer your e-mails this week end? LOL
BEAGLE
BEAGLE
My little red dots looks more like strawberry dots. They really don't resemble spider veins (like I have in my legs). They are pretty tiny, but I get them more on my upper back and upper abdomen.
Susan
Susan
I just found an earlier paper by the same group - <a href="http://www.natap.org/2005/HCV/090505_20.htm">Occult hepatitis C virus infection in patients in whom the etiology of persistently abnormal results of liver-function tests is unknown</a>, though they weren't looking a SVR's here (it's the second study listed on the page):
<i>To our knowledge, only 2 studies have analyzed the presence of HCV RNA in liver samples from patients with chronic hepatitis in the absence of anti-HCV antibodies and of serum HCV RNA, with negative results [17, 18]. This discrepancy probably can be explained by differences in technical conditions. For example, Geller et al. [17] used paraffin-embedded liver sections, in which HCV RNA degradation may occur [19, 20], rather than properly frozen liver-biopsy specimens (such as those in the present study), in which such degradation does not occur [21]. Bresters et al. [18] used frozen liver-biopsy specimens, but they did not report the elapsed time between extraction and freezing of the specimen-a crucial period, because degradation of viral RNA can occur if this elapsed time is too long [21]. Supporting our findings is Verslype et al.'s [22] recent report of the presence of HCV envelope 2 protein in the liver of 6 patients negative for anti-HCV antibodies and for serum HCV RNA, whereas RT-PCR found only 1 patient to be positive for intrahepatic HCV RNA. As Verslype et al. note, this discrepancy may be explained, as previously had been reported [21], by either a low viral copy number or the degradation of HCV RNA during tissue handling. Thus, because the percentage of infected hepatocytes found in occult HCV infection (and, therefore, the total amount of HCV RNA) is much lower (mean
<i>To our knowledge, only 2 studies have analyzed the presence of HCV RNA in liver samples from patients with chronic hepatitis in the absence of anti-HCV antibodies and of serum HCV RNA, with negative results [17, 18]. This discrepancy probably can be explained by differences in technical conditions. For example, Geller et al. [17] used paraffin-embedded liver sections, in which HCV RNA degradation may occur [19, 20], rather than properly frozen liver-biopsy specimens (such as those in the present study), in which such degradation does not occur [21]. Bresters et al. [18] used frozen liver-biopsy specimens, but they did not report the elapsed time between extraction and freezing of the specimen-a crucial period, because degradation of viral RNA can occur if this elapsed time is too long [21]. Supporting our findings is Verslype et al.'s [22] recent report of the presence of HCV envelope 2 protein in the liver of 6 patients negative for anti-HCV antibodies and for serum HCV RNA, whereas RT-PCR found only 1 patient to be positive for intrahepatic HCV RNA. As Verslype et al. note, this discrepancy may be explained, as previously had been reported [21], by either a low viral copy number or the degradation of HCV RNA during tissue handling. Thus, because the percentage of infected hepatocytes found in occult HCV infection (and, therefore, the total amount of HCV RNA) is much lower (mean
K: my dag L is touchy and works when it wants
Looks like your N is getting a little anemic too!
AZ: when I was first diagnosed I drove myself crazy with every cough, itch, bowel movement
Uh-oh. When you stop obsessing about the bowels it's not a good sign. <small>wondering why they don't make mirrored toilet bowels... or at least clear glass would be cool.... and now that I think about it, why is the bathroom exhaust fan on the ceiling when the problem it's addressing is inside the bowel... questions to ponder...</small>
Looks like your N is getting a little anemic too!
AZ: when I was first diagnosed I drove myself crazy with every cough, itch, bowel movement
Uh-oh. When you stop obsessing about the bowels it's not a good sign. <small>wondering why they don't make mirrored toilet bowels... or at least clear glass would be cool.... and now that I think about it, why is the bathroom exhaust fan on the ceiling when the problem it's addressing is inside the bowel... questions to ponder...</small>
Yes, Mishelli, I have those tiny little red spots too but I cannot tell you what they are. I had a couple pre treatment, but more seem to pop up since I have been treating - mostly in the chest and stomache area. They don't seem to be a problem, and definitely are not spider like - just little pin points like you described. I don't have much liver damage (stage 1, grade 1) and am not sure if they are liver-related.
I am friole, 1a pretreatment 1.52 million IU/vL and will do shot #43 tonight. Don't think we have met, so welcome to the forum from me.
I am friole, 1a pretreatment 1.52 million IU/vL and will do shot #43 tonight. Don't think we have met, so welcome to the forum from me.
Well good then. I'm getting by but this fever is really starting to wear at me. Wake up all through the night sweating form it. Wife abandoned me for sanity in another room ha! I have my 24 week appointment with Hemo Tuesday so I hope all is going well. Not sure what he will be able to tell me since they haven't wanted blood in two weeks. I guess he will study my complexion ha! hang in there you're so close. Dale
I'm holding up fine, even with a HGB of 7.3 but will have the transfusion the beginning of next week. Then that will see me to the end of tx. How are you feeling? Hope better then the beginning of the week.
BEAGLE
BEAGLE
you mean you worried about your hooopdukes too? (hoopdukes = bowel movement) hahahahahaha....maybe you are just as crazy as me.
deb in az
deb in az
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