Research supported antifibrotics - do they exist?

[Hepatitis Researcher]

The problems of treatment failure for SOC/IFN nonresponders and the possibility of reducing future supercombo-SVRchances by introducing archived resistance mutations when using "Pseudomonotherapy" - (that is here defined as using  a single  antiviral agent that is not protected against resistance development by its combo with an IFN/riba component (IFN by definition in this scenario is not sufficiently effective in reducing viral replication so that all the burden to tame the adaptive quasispecies evolution falls on the antiviral)) together with the 61% and 65% SVR rates for the latest triple modality in Geno 1s, have raised concern and the awareness for the need for alternate/additional treatment modalities in many HCV patients and their health care providers. Waiting for future antiviral developments is one route frequently recommended, but for the patients  in current need, our repertoire of additional meaningful approaches needs to be carefully reevaluated. Using antifibrotics to halt fibrosis progression is one concept not proven in large trials but it might well be effective in many, because the mechanisms for fibrosis generation are not intrinsically linked to HCV persistence, but rather to secondary response mechanisms evoked in the chronically inflamed liver, with the stellate cell activation holding center stage in this scenario. The following is one of several possible add on modalities.

[coeric]

evangelin has not posted here for about 7 months, so you may not get a reply.  i just finished 48 weeks of triple and found this site invaluable.  a few years ago i met the doctor she was referring two - a brilliant and kind man.  a while back i looked at the heptech site and saw his name was listed as a consultant. i started to take the ppc 5 years ago and still take it.  at the time i was diagnosed with cirrhosis.  i dont know if it helped but i believe there was a small study that showed it helped with alcoholic cirrhosis.
eric

[pugdaddy]

Hi Evangelin -
I am a compensated cirrhotic - and am just beginning the HepTech supplements.  I was told that your husband (Joe?) benefitted greatly from them - can you briefly summmarize the experience?
And how is your husband doing?  Well, I hope!!
With all good wishes,
Pugdaddy

[thebadbambino]

You know what pisses me off. These doctors or acupuncturist seeing how deperperate you are and sell you crap that's not doing a damn thing. They all put the best ingrediants in there formuler but most of the time it's at such low dosages it will not help a newborn baby. Most of these substances doesn't even get absorbed by the body.  Just like milk thistle. Research how much gets absorbed.  Sho-sai-ko-to has some studies behind it and I'm sure they were poorly run but for a Doctor to say it works then never trust him. How the hell can he say that.

[Mari5116]

I found this post very hepful awhile ago, now seeing again.
In 10/2010 I was F1-F2 stage fibrosis and in 5/11 had progressed to F2- bridging with few speta.  I'm waiting to treat in the fall VL 21 mill+.  I had read this post a while back while reseaching antifibrotics in hopes of finding something that could effect some change prior to tx.  I already take Life Extension products and the PCC for quite awhile, live a healthy lifestyle, workout, swim, bike, do yoga eat healthy fresh food and stilll progressed. I do like sweets but in serious moderation.
I came across a clinical trial using sho-sai-ko-to and then another article from Sloan-kettering regarding the same.  I asked the doc during the clinical trial interview if he'd ever heard of it and he said, yes, it works.  I saw a local acupunturist and discussed the ingredients with him.  there are seven igredeients. He sold me something that he says has most of them in it.  I'm so afraid that it may be getting too late and time may run out for my little liver.  All this obsessing and sometimes it just all feels like a crap shoot.  
Sorry just in a mood.

[crossroadsec]

I was sold a bovine liver complex by an MD who practices natruopathy. I took 1/2 the bottle n then stopped when i began tx. My liver transplant Dr said as long as I was confident w the Dr n trusted his source, I could take it. It kind of scared me, but my cousin has known him for over 30 years and swore he used  high quality alternative meds. ESLD can make you leave no stone unturned
I LOVE this thread. I'm gonna shop....and get that coffee bean grinder out!  
Thanks for all this information!! Karen :)

[JoieTan]

Back to the top post,

PPC may not be recommended
for patients with chronic hepatitis B.

So this one applicable to Hepatitis C only ?

[evangelin]

For those of you who weren't here to benefit from HR's posts, here is one of the many gems he left in the Medhelp archives.  It also shows you why it is difficult to give a cut and dried list of which supplements he said to take .  It came with very detailed and complex explanations in an attempt to help us navigate through that which had the potential of helping and that which did not.  PPC alone took a lot to explain . Anything with the name Polyenylphosphatidylcholine (PPC) was bound to be a little complex.  :>)  HR took a lot of painstaking time to explain why phosphatidylcholine nor choline were going to do the job of reversing fibrosis.  
This thread was really long and likely only the desperate will have the stamina to read all of it.  If you do, you will see that St. George posted quite a few times.  
I was in the desperate club when I spent days on end reading and studying to understand his posts.  
If you note my post above from 2007, it  shows me to be the same person as I am in 2011 except that Joe has one more TX failure under his belt.  Why would I not have great regard for him for the help he freely gave.  He was a "suit" and TX was first but he was a realist and understood the unmet need.

[mhudnall]

Just giving a bump to a very good previous discussion thread on the subject of PPC by HR and others. I think many will be interested, if they haven't already seen this thread.

BTW, the recommended product line, Hepatopro contains 30% ethanol; a fact that is not hidden, but also not well disclosed. At the time of this thread it was probably the best product out there. However, there is a new product line available now that contains no ethanol and is high quality. If anyone is interested send me a private message and I will tell you the source.

[KettyJohnson]

Thanks for a healthy and helpful discussion, you may also check this link for more information

http://allnutri.com/nattokinase.aspx

[CockSparrow]

mikesimon-I feel I am in rarefied company when I read your posts
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I feel like spending the next three days trying to figure out what was said.

Good way to learn though.
CS

[GoofyDad]

Thanks for that. Like a good bowl of spinach - it will take a while to digest. At the risk of oversimplification - it sounds to me that the take away is: NO enhancement is generally a good thing - unless the liver is obviously past the 'tipping point'.....

[St. George]

I didn't use Glisodin through my failed treatment but do you think it may have added some benefit to the battle?  Do you think SOD overall in any form(injectable) would have a certain synergy with interferon?

[St. George]

Wouldn't you agree that the small percentage of people who may develop a food sensitivity to it would be offset by the releif of symptoms many would attain from it, not to mention the protection it would afford the liver.  Have  you heard of Glisodin in your research?

[St. George]

here is a link explaining in depth the functions of glisodin Sod in the body and are backed by clinical studies.  Also, glisodin doesn't displace nitrous oxide as stated in my previous post, but rather modulates it.

http://www.glisodin.com/glisodin_monograph.php

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Glisodin is Superoxide Dismutase from Melons bound to a gliadin protein carrier. The Gliadin is a protein with multiple acidic Glutamic acid side chain molecules, that renders it undigestable in the stomach/upper intestines. This way the SOD is protected frorm digestion and a small amount of it is penetrating the intestinal wall possibly by some leaky gut phenomenon.

It is unfortunately burdened with the risk of developing a food allergy type of reaction to it.

[St. George]

Here is a link with info pertaining to nattokinase and its effect on fibrin.

http://www.raysahelian.com/nattokinase.html

[St. George]

oh ,and also a naturally occuring enzyme which may be purchased named nattokinase.  Read up on it.

[St. George]

I happened upon a substance about a year ago through my studies in chiropractic college when I was experiencing extreme liver inflamation from the disease.  It is a patented substance called Glisodin.  It is an enterically protected form of S.O.D (superoxide dismutase).  SOD is one of the   main antioxidants the body produces naturally along with glutathione.  SOD in the body displaces extra Nitric oxide and renders it harmless which in turn reduces inflamation.  The problem with SOD is that when taken  orally stomach acids neutralize it and make it usesless but that is where Glisodin comes in.  It has a clinically tested delivery system that in studies raised Glisodin levels in older humans to levels seen in young adults.  Up until Glisodi SOD was only useful when delivered  by sub q injection because it bypassed the perils of the stomach.  I received so much releif from my symptoms whithin days of taking this substance.   I beleive that this product could be useful as an anti fibrotic agent.

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Here is your analysis:

The sum of improved metabolic lifestyle,

decreased intestinal toxicity/inflammation on liver and systemwide

and the combo of the various components of the liver protective antinflammatory and stellate system activation (TGFbeta and NFkappaB expression reducing) reducing supplements

will often lead to improved endothelial function as a welcome "side effect".

Endothelial function is a summary term for the various reactions of the endothelium to the stimuli that in normal physiology make it respond to demands in regional blood flow and other situations, like a damage to the vascular bed.

Of particular interest is the relaxation of arterial-vascular tone - by relaxing the smooth muscle ring inside the arterial wall-  in response to increased peripheral demand like in the coronary system, the leg muscles when you run up a flight of stairs and -of particular interest to men with diabetes and hypertension-  in response to sexual stimulation.

All these functions are achieved by the healthy, non dysfunctional endothelial cells releasing Nitrous oxide -NO- through activation of the endogenous nitrous oxide synthetase, provided all the pathways and molecular machinery is intact.

In endothelial dysfunctions many of the complex subsystems at play here work at suboptimal levels, leaving the patient with a nonrelaxing artery, so the heart and muscles etc. do not get enough blood flow increase, resulting among other problems,  in the now so famous ( By TV commercials) ED. Hence the liver/lover connection/slip that I referred to.



The "seeming contradiction" that  you are referring to , Goofydad is the fact that in advanced cirrhosis there exists a complex syndrome called  "hyperdynamic circulation", which contributes to the portal hypertension by increasing the blood flow into the splanchnic ( gastroenteric=guts) circulation, delivering more blood to the liver (with a decreased capacity/increased resistance) ,  that makes the portal pressure even  higher. In this situation there is
an increased overall production of NO,
not locally but systemically present,
by the inducible nitrous oxide synthethase, that reduces the bodywide vascular resistance
( but not in the liver!)
and leads to blood pressure reduction, cardiac minutevolume /output overload
and overall volume overload
and also sodium retention in response to that, so as to compensatory  increase blood pressure/volume, by the renin/angiotensin system, ( this can lead to ascites and spontaneous peritonitis, all complications of advanced cirrhosis)
and often to renal vasoconstriction in response to the accumulation of blood in the splanchnic ( gut) vascular bed
which can lead to the lifethreatening  "hepatorenal syndrome".

In this situation extra arginine means even more systemwide , nonphysiological NO production with aggravation of the syndrome as described.

This has little to do with the improvement in local endothelial function and local NO production, a vital part of normal human physiology often impaired in persons with obesity, diabetes, fatty liver, hypertension and chronic inflammation.

I think this is the dichotomy that you were hinting at. Not so easy to clarify that, but I did it as simple as possible.

[GoofyDad]

Somewhere in this long thread - or a spin-off thread - HR made mention of the relationship between liver and lover. As I understand the comments, some of the suggested supplements are known to boost Niric Oxide. Can we talk about the implications, if any, of this NO boost and an underlying portal hypertension condition?

Here's an interesting link that suggests boosting NO would be a good thing....http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept37389/files/245390.html

And this one seems to contradict...http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2138722

HR, can you share more of your enlightened analaysis?

[scratchinghead]

The $44 prices include shipping and handling. So I bet we are about the same.
Heppy Thanksgiving!!!

[GoofyDad]

It' also available at The Vitamin Shoppe bricks-and-mortar stores - about $38.50..

[scratchinghead]

Thats the good stuff.

[scratchinghead]

I googled the stuff and just picked one of the links and it has 2 sources for LEF PPC for $44 or so.
http://www.shopping.com/xCC-co900-price_range_30_90-softgels