Aa
SOCIALIZED MEDICINE, will it help or hurt research
weigh in if you want to!! I think we'd set the clock back 50 years, but that's just me.
Isms kill the most of all. Down with ideologies!! Nothing is particularly clear-cut in this world, and I can't think of any -ism that acknowledges its own uncertainty. That to me is the biggest problem.
The politicians on both sides of the aisle are the real bums on the dole! Greed kills, but Socialism kills more! And that isn't revisionist history.
you bet...i know i am preaching to the wrong choir..but when the problem is latd at the feet of 'guys w/ shovels' ..my umbrage kicks in...the greedheads that have run this country,the wallstreet wastrels are the real bums on the dole.
"A People's History of the United States" by Howard Zinn - one of the best, corrective pictures of our country's history I've ever read. At my niece's high school, a fancy-schmancy private boarding school BTW, this book was part of the curriculum for AP US History. Thanks for the reference.
O.K. i gotta respond,but with this caveat:let's take it too the othr side......You never answered my questions;responded to my comments and quotes...merely went off on a RANT........read AMERICAN HISTORY..!!!!! we are the country,the nation that others looked to for guidance at becoming an Egalitarian society-in the past..you know,being free,equal, fair,compassionate and taking care of our own...This Nation and it's wealth are the compounded results of natural resources and generations of labor..and i for one am not happy or proud to see the present state of affairs...i urge you to do a little reading about the American labor movement and the real history of this country(try howard zinn) if your heart doesn't swell with PRIDE and you are not moved to tears by the twisted path we have taken...at that point,i will v strongly agree to dissagree and 'say no more'......
Socialized delivery of medical care, as in Europe, does not eliminate privately or publicly owned pharmaceutical companies. Schering and Roche etc. will probably do better under a national health plan than they do today because there will be more customers for their products.
Also, triage is used everywhere and trumps position in lines. The gunshot wound always takes precedence over indigestion. To think otherwise is just totally disingenuous.
Also, triage is used everywhere and trumps position in lines. The gunshot wound always takes precedence over indigestion. To think otherwise is just totally disingenuous.
other side....agreed. That would also go for discussions other political or religion polemics.
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"Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
February 3, 2005
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
Bankruptcy Bill
• Senate Passes MBNA's Bankruptcy Bill
• Congress Ready to Tighten Bankruptcy Law
• Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.
Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most."
(visit the link for the rest of the article.-Willy)
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I think that many people feel that the system is becoming increasingly broken if the people in the above article find themselves in bankruptcy.
I sometimes see arguments that seem based more on fear than on reason. In spite of the fact that there are other socialized medical systems in place (yes, none are perfect) an appeal is made to scare us; "Yes, but if we change the current system it will be EVEN WORSE. We must go in a certain direction or else all hell will break loose." Seems like we got into a Mid East conflict with that same logic......or Viet Nam before that. : )
It's all Rhetoric with a captital R. People end up becoming so involved in defending a position that they don't answer other threads that ARE about HCV (this one ain't)....and isn't that why people come to a Hepatitis forum? There are plenty of political forums out there......
Willy
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"Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
February 3, 2005
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
Bankruptcy Bill
• Senate Passes MBNA's Bankruptcy Bill
• Congress Ready to Tighten Bankruptcy Law
• Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.
Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most."
(visit the link for the rest of the article.-Willy)
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I think that many people feel that the system is becoming increasingly broken if the people in the above article find themselves in bankruptcy.
I sometimes see arguments that seem based more on fear than on reason. In spite of the fact that there are other socialized medical systems in place (yes, none are perfect) an appeal is made to scare us; "Yes, but if we change the current system it will be EVEN WORSE. We must go in a certain direction or else all hell will break loose." Seems like we got into a Mid East conflict with that same logic......or Viet Nam before that. : )
It's all Rhetoric with a captital R. People end up becoming so involved in defending a position that they don't answer other threads that ARE about HCV (this one ain't)....and isn't that why people come to a Hepatitis forum? There are plenty of political forums out there......
Willy
finale'
who here knows who founded and wrote the first socialist doctrines?
who knows what USSR stands for?
hint, starts with a K
hint, 3rd word is socialist
who here knows who founded and wrote the first socialist doctrines?
who knows what USSR stands for?
hint, starts with a K
hint, 3rd word is socialist
can't answer everybody, too tired.
but to end the night, eventually socializm and population growth and rising costs will mean busier more over crowded "public" hospitals. Period.
No, not all plastic surgery is done in Private quarters, if a person has anything that could mean a complication, they get a regular OR room.
Personally, I don't want my about to burst gallbladder pushed back because 3 plastics took longer than usual, so that whole system needs to change. Electives need to be handled differently and not given the same status as sick people. Sorry, but that has to change.
Also, where do people go overseas for this "better care". I have friends who travel all of whom have horror stories of European supposedly state of the art care. they can't wait to get state side.
Yes there are drug companies abroad as well...we aren't alone in discoveries. Check out the R and D, and patent protections they have as well. One area that can't be socialized in the true sense of the word is that one.
It would spell disaster. You cannot villianize the drug companies for all the ills in health care. It's scapegoatism and far too simplistic.
but to end the night, eventually socializm and population growth and rising costs will mean busier more over crowded "public" hospitals. Period.
No, not all plastic surgery is done in Private quarters, if a person has anything that could mean a complication, they get a regular OR room.
Personally, I don't want my about to burst gallbladder pushed back because 3 plastics took longer than usual, so that whole system needs to change. Electives need to be handled differently and not given the same status as sick people. Sorry, but that has to change.
Also, where do people go overseas for this "better care". I have friends who travel all of whom have horror stories of European supposedly state of the art care. they can't wait to get state side.
Yes there are drug companies abroad as well...we aren't alone in discoveries. Check out the R and D, and patent protections they have as well. One area that can't be socialized in the true sense of the word is that one.
It would spell disaster. You cannot villianize the drug companies for all the ills in health care. It's scapegoatism and far too simplistic.
I have excellent health care NOW and have for almost 2 of the last 20 years, before that I suffered under insured, no insurance, even had to go on state health care during cancer....every step of the way, even now.....I've had to fight for every scap....and had had to fight like a dog so often I mail myself monthly Advantage just to be safe!
the system is flawed, read my responses instead of just assuming you know how I think,
the question was...to socialize or not.......answer: sounds good BUT< but it won't be "all fixed" by socializing. It will be fixed by holding HMO's DOCS, DRug companies, AND our government accountable. By we as consumers demanding a return to sanity. Even by using our legal system when necessary. What better cause!! (and no I'm not a lawyer).
I'm sorry about your friend........been there.
It's unfortunate, but you have to be proactive yourself or have someone fight for you because there is SO MUCH entrenched apathy and stagnation. things in motion tend to stay in motion, well thing lump is stuck.
I lay here writing, prossibly dying, because of ineptitude, denied tests and procedures....
why would you presume someone clueless because they differ in approaches to fix things???
SO< still, I'm telling you socializing is not the answer. I agree your friend needed to be moved up, thank God a liver came in. If you follow the models in Europe and elsewhere, someone far less critical could have gotten that liver not because they were a better match, but because of where they were in the line.
The way it is now people who are too sick to fight still have to, or have someone doing it, or resign themselves to neglect which will deapen exponetially with socializm.....because the docs who should be pro active are too stapped, too busy, too regulated to "only spend 20 minutes with you" and few really advocate for their patients as a result. Only the rich can pay extra for a doc who will do this. AND they do. don't think our politicians wait in line either....they never will!!!!!!!!!!
No lines there.
But if you think socializing it will solve this, respectfully, you are wrong. You are assuming that the system will continue to improve if you remove all reward, all profit, and further regulate how much can be done and for whom. It's like asking farmers to plant corn, and telling them in advance the crop will fail!!
as flawed as our system is, socialing it will dehumanize it even more. Government workers are the least efficient of all classes of people. and the most jaded. I watched a road crew fill a hole on my road last month. It took six workers, who stood for an hour before the truck came, and took another hour when they got the asphalt. On hole, one wheel barrow full. 6 guys, 2 hours. Lazy, jaded, overrewarded bureaucrats. We need MORE of these????
At some point, like the Dutch we will find ourselves legislating to pay docs as much as clerks, and to euthanize the old people.anything to balance the budgets so everyone will get their raise and the elite can have their private non line system. Is that what we want? Hmmm...Hitler used that second idea...too much trouble those old people, line em up and pop!!!
I guess you have more faith in human nature than I do. I see the systems flaws as fixable when you take away the perks docs get from drug companies, and the kick backs from HMO's for denying care. Jail a few of them!!!!! But if you take it to government management you will bog it down to the point that you'll chaos in the ranks and little to no research etc.
ADJUNCT: whoever said medicare can't negotiate for cheaper drugs is misimformed. they can and do, big time.
what they can't do is force a company to GIVE away something still under patent.
the system is flawed, read my responses instead of just assuming you know how I think,
the question was...to socialize or not.......answer: sounds good BUT< but it won't be "all fixed" by socializing. It will be fixed by holding HMO's DOCS, DRug companies, AND our government accountable. By we as consumers demanding a return to sanity. Even by using our legal system when necessary. What better cause!! (and no I'm not a lawyer).
I'm sorry about your friend........been there.
It's unfortunate, but you have to be proactive yourself or have someone fight for you because there is SO MUCH entrenched apathy and stagnation. things in motion tend to stay in motion, well thing lump is stuck.
I lay here writing, prossibly dying, because of ineptitude, denied tests and procedures....
why would you presume someone clueless because they differ in approaches to fix things???
SO< still, I'm telling you socializing is not the answer. I agree your friend needed to be moved up, thank God a liver came in. If you follow the models in Europe and elsewhere, someone far less critical could have gotten that liver not because they were a better match, but because of where they were in the line.
The way it is now people who are too sick to fight still have to, or have someone doing it, or resign themselves to neglect which will deapen exponetially with socializm.....because the docs who should be pro active are too stapped, too busy, too regulated to "only spend 20 minutes with you" and few really advocate for their patients as a result. Only the rich can pay extra for a doc who will do this. AND they do. don't think our politicians wait in line either....they never will!!!!!!!!!!
No lines there.
But if you think socializing it will solve this, respectfully, you are wrong. You are assuming that the system will continue to improve if you remove all reward, all profit, and further regulate how much can be done and for whom. It's like asking farmers to plant corn, and telling them in advance the crop will fail!!
as flawed as our system is, socialing it will dehumanize it even more. Government workers are the least efficient of all classes of people. and the most jaded. I watched a road crew fill a hole on my road last month. It took six workers, who stood for an hour before the truck came, and took another hour when they got the asphalt. On hole, one wheel barrow full. 6 guys, 2 hours. Lazy, jaded, overrewarded bureaucrats. We need MORE of these????
At some point, like the Dutch we will find ourselves legislating to pay docs as much as clerks, and to euthanize the old people.anything to balance the budgets so everyone will get their raise and the elite can have their private non line system. Is that what we want? Hmmm...Hitler used that second idea...too much trouble those old people, line em up and pop!!!
I guess you have more faith in human nature than I do. I see the systems flaws as fixable when you take away the perks docs get from drug companies, and the kick backs from HMO's for denying care. Jail a few of them!!!!! But if you take it to government management you will bog it down to the point that you'll chaos in the ranks and little to no research etc.
ADJUNCT: whoever said medicare can't negotiate for cheaper drugs is misimformed. they can and do, big time.
what they can't do is force a company to GIVE away something still under patent.
good points all. I've seen some footage on clinics in Russia, Cuba recently (not the one Castro wants you to see) and even England, more flawed than you can imagine. We have a gravy train by comparison. Yes HMO's are flawed. So are doctors, so are patients. the idea of managed care is a debatable one because A. the management tries to weed out over eager docs and patients, and B. without them you have mass abuses by both groups and PARTICULARLY blatant in the medicare areana where it's government supposedly supervising who get's what test. If medicare has found trillions in abuses, how does that speak to THEIR management skills or the idea that things will get better if they take over the whole system???
Besides which....I have family on medicare...and the old adage, oh but your on medicare, so that's not available is something I've heard for 20 years while caring for a now 85 year old.
the idea to cut back on basics....like giving her an MRI, or my HMO refusing to give me one after going through a windshield?????? Neither of these groups are GOOD at management.
the real truth is sometime you use the word "legal" because it's the only way to awaken the slumbering bored and too infrequently held accountable professionals (loosely pros).
the real truth is the system is only as good as the people in it. Our morals have taken a nose dive. Now it shows up in more corruption in every arena. No moral backbone, no excellence in service.
and yes, I object too to the excess corruption, only excess to us seems new, why; because a million isn't what it once was. read up on the corruption in NY or chicagos governments and companies 70 years ago, you'll see there's nothing new under the sun.
I want the fake loan guys in JAIL, not white collar jail either, and hopefully they will be, more have gone lately than ever before. still a drop.
If congress wasn't so busy trying to malign everyone GB appointed, and maybe got back to their JOB, making laws, maybe 5 times more would be going.
you have to ask though, what kind of idiot takes out an interest only loan, or doesn't understand a deal to good to be true or even the concept of prime, or variable rates, or even basic economics. At some point, all good will and charity aside, I'd have to say,
look, I'm sorry you bought snake oil, I'm sorry you all had to have a house that was twice as big as what your means could really afford. I still think, it's not our place to bail them out. Let them take what equity or lumps they must, and for God sakes do not deregulate the banks like they now suggest. Greed is inherent in human beings. Brokers. lawyers you name it....suddenly we think bankers will be an exception? right!!
what I don't get, and this is me being stupid maybe, but they can hold and trace and freeze whole countries assets and have. Why is the Enron B. sitting on billions? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to say, you get caught, you go to jail AND we hunt down your wife and children's trust funds??
If an enron employee has zip in retirement, and some brats somewhere are sucking on their life's work...and can't be touched because Ken was good at spreading the wealth around, how is that fair?
there would be a lot less corruption if men knew that they couldn't hide it anywhere, and that their family as well would be ruined.
nut back to the new loan debaucle, if my kids spends to much on a car, he'll learn when he tries to trade up and can't cause he to high into it....if he forgets to put oil in it, it blows up. Do I buy him a new one, or let him buy a junker and learn a lesson? I let him buy the junker!! It's buyer beware!!!
Unfortunately, many parent abducated their responsibility to teach their kids basic economic, leaving it to an ever degrading public education system. We are now seeing the effects of this.
How many kids know today that 6 percent doubles their homes cost or more even?
socializing house payments is maybe what we ought to call it. Hey, I live in a 50's ranch, but I don't mind paying for your 3 story granite lined gullibility?? Actually I used to be a socialist. Now I see it as communism just bumped over one land group or two. We won't call it that, but there's darn little difference.
I like the guy who said it cost's me an extra 3.50 per hour per employee now. Try triple that if we socialize and bail out for another ten years. there's only so long we can borrow as a nation before reaching insolvency. there's only so much benefit you can pay per employee before you can't feed your own...small business is the biggest piece of our county pie, they get it, No one else seems to understand that today.
Servicing the debt, debt Loads, PE ratios, remember that stuff...well don't explain it to me, write your congressman and explain it to him, I'm expecting we'll try repackaging the same old tired promises and deliver no belt tightening in this decade either, regardless of who's elected. it's not in most nature's anymore to connect the dots!!
Unfortunate because I'm expecting a melt down of this bloated ice cube before any other.
Besides which....I have family on medicare...and the old adage, oh but your on medicare, so that's not available is something I've heard for 20 years while caring for a now 85 year old.
the idea to cut back on basics....like giving her an MRI, or my HMO refusing to give me one after going through a windshield?????? Neither of these groups are GOOD at management.
the real truth is sometime you use the word "legal" because it's the only way to awaken the slumbering bored and too infrequently held accountable professionals (loosely pros).
the real truth is the system is only as good as the people in it. Our morals have taken a nose dive. Now it shows up in more corruption in every arena. No moral backbone, no excellence in service.
and yes, I object too to the excess corruption, only excess to us seems new, why; because a million isn't what it once was. read up on the corruption in NY or chicagos governments and companies 70 years ago, you'll see there's nothing new under the sun.
I want the fake loan guys in JAIL, not white collar jail either, and hopefully they will be, more have gone lately than ever before. still a drop.
If congress wasn't so busy trying to malign everyone GB appointed, and maybe got back to their JOB, making laws, maybe 5 times more would be going.
you have to ask though, what kind of idiot takes out an interest only loan, or doesn't understand a deal to good to be true or even the concept of prime, or variable rates, or even basic economics. At some point, all good will and charity aside, I'd have to say,
look, I'm sorry you bought snake oil, I'm sorry you all had to have a house that was twice as big as what your means could really afford. I still think, it's not our place to bail them out. Let them take what equity or lumps they must, and for God sakes do not deregulate the banks like they now suggest. Greed is inherent in human beings. Brokers. lawyers you name it....suddenly we think bankers will be an exception? right!!
what I don't get, and this is me being stupid maybe, but they can hold and trace and freeze whole countries assets and have. Why is the Enron B. sitting on billions? I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to say, you get caught, you go to jail AND we hunt down your wife and children's trust funds??
If an enron employee has zip in retirement, and some brats somewhere are sucking on their life's work...and can't be touched because Ken was good at spreading the wealth around, how is that fair?
there would be a lot less corruption if men knew that they couldn't hide it anywhere, and that their family as well would be ruined.
nut back to the new loan debaucle, if my kids spends to much on a car, he'll learn when he tries to trade up and can't cause he to high into it....if he forgets to put oil in it, it blows up. Do I buy him a new one, or let him buy a junker and learn a lesson? I let him buy the junker!! It's buyer beware!!!
Unfortunately, many parent abducated their responsibility to teach their kids basic economic, leaving it to an ever degrading public education system. We are now seeing the effects of this.
How many kids know today that 6 percent doubles their homes cost or more even?
socializing house payments is maybe what we ought to call it. Hey, I live in a 50's ranch, but I don't mind paying for your 3 story granite lined gullibility?? Actually I used to be a socialist. Now I see it as communism just bumped over one land group or two. We won't call it that, but there's darn little difference.
I like the guy who said it cost's me an extra 3.50 per hour per employee now. Try triple that if we socialize and bail out for another ten years. there's only so long we can borrow as a nation before reaching insolvency. there's only so much benefit you can pay per employee before you can't feed your own...small business is the biggest piece of our county pie, they get it, No one else seems to understand that today.
Servicing the debt, debt Loads, PE ratios, remember that stuff...well don't explain it to me, write your congressman and explain it to him, I'm expecting we'll try repackaging the same old tired promises and deliver no belt tightening in this decade either, regardless of who's elected. it's not in most nature's anymore to connect the dots!!
Unfortunate because I'm expecting a melt down of this bloated ice cube before any other.
hmo's, lobbyist, endless conversations...lots of troubles there...medicare is more flawed.
the average person on medicare paid for 3 years coverage and gets 20 yrs with our "flawed" medicine in this country affording them ans extra 10-20 years we hadn't expected or planned for.
Medicare is broke, you and three or 4 other boys now pay for each senior, each month. Nothing is being laid aside for you but IOU'S.
rather than rectify this by cutting off the rich, certain income levels have NO business on medicare, they lay **** after **** on the middle class.....sure, Medicare D works, NOT.
we are so busy giving millions of illegal aliens who pay no taxes medicine, that we've decided every gramma needs to pay 5 grand more. Yup, that what my grannie pays more now.
the poorest get a free ride, the illegals get a free ride, the unemployed get cut off, and the grannies with a 20K income, cause they did save their skekels so as not to be a burden on their children, get stiffed for an extra 5 grand. Make sense of that one if you are.
It's called the donut hole through which half our elderly now jump. I see the problem as 2 fold, one, people don't take advantage of cobra, 2. companies have ways around providing or offering benefits. that has to stop. 3. there has to be a bill sent to mexico that they have to pay for the billions in services we now provide. you get sick, you sneak up here you get well. what incentive does Vincente have to stop corruption OR build decent hospitals when we are willing to do all the heavy lifting??
I got an idea, you cook dinner every night, and just before you sit down to eat it, I'll come over and remove a third of it.....same idea. How long before you say, wait a minute here, I worked for that, my kids are hungry, go get your own dinner, and YOU work for it. I don't see this an an immigration issue, it's an issue of coming in, ordering a big dinner with no intention of paying the tab. In most restaurants that's called robbery.......not charity. Charity is a whole other matter. People that come lefally, apply for citizenship are afforded the same rights and priveledges that come with being a tax payer......this is different.
the average person on medicare paid for 3 years coverage and gets 20 yrs with our "flawed" medicine in this country affording them ans extra 10-20 years we hadn't expected or planned for.
Medicare is broke, you and three or 4 other boys now pay for each senior, each month. Nothing is being laid aside for you but IOU'S.
rather than rectify this by cutting off the rich, certain income levels have NO business on medicare, they lay **** after **** on the middle class.....sure, Medicare D works, NOT.
we are so busy giving millions of illegal aliens who pay no taxes medicine, that we've decided every gramma needs to pay 5 grand more. Yup, that what my grannie pays more now.
the poorest get a free ride, the illegals get a free ride, the unemployed get cut off, and the grannies with a 20K income, cause they did save their skekels so as not to be a burden on their children, get stiffed for an extra 5 grand. Make sense of that one if you are.
It's called the donut hole through which half our elderly now jump. I see the problem as 2 fold, one, people don't take advantage of cobra, 2. companies have ways around providing or offering benefits. that has to stop. 3. there has to be a bill sent to mexico that they have to pay for the billions in services we now provide. you get sick, you sneak up here you get well. what incentive does Vincente have to stop corruption OR build decent hospitals when we are willing to do all the heavy lifting??
I got an idea, you cook dinner every night, and just before you sit down to eat it, I'll come over and remove a third of it.....same idea. How long before you say, wait a minute here, I worked for that, my kids are hungry, go get your own dinner, and YOU work for it. I don't see this an an immigration issue, it's an issue of coming in, ordering a big dinner with no intention of paying the tab. In most restaurants that's called robbery.......not charity. Charity is a whole other matter. People that come lefally, apply for citizenship are afforded the same rights and priveledges that come with being a tax payer......this is different.
Why make these kinds of leaps? What does having a socialized medical system have to do with taking down capitalism? Or living in Cuba? Or the USSR? With all it's problems, Medicare is a social program, anybody complaining about having Medicare? Should we put our old people on boats out to sea and set them afire, like the Vikings?
It's one social program among many, yet capitalism in America still thrives, virtually uncapped with very few controls....it helps out big Oil in so many ways, bless their hearts, so that Big Oil makes billions in profits, more then ever.....while the average joes are paying though the nose to fill up their tanks cause they aren't getting it anywhere else.....so do all the complaining you want on that front...
I've always been solvent, with good insurance, but I don't live in this country by myself. I won't live with that, "I got mine, screw you attitude". And excuse me, but I have heard of a lot of waiting in waiting rooms here, HMOs are famous for it.
If we would of had some kind of oversight on a flaming example of unbridled capitalism - the sub-prime loan disaster wouldn't have happened....these winner takes all companies wouldn't have been able to give loans to homeless people for God's sake, taking all that upfront money...now the govt will bail out these unethical top executives, while the middle class to poor people are being thrown out of their houses (because of mass foreclosures) at unprecedented rates....which might just drag us all into a mini-recession.
Don't worry, capitalism is alive and well in the U S of A. But the medical systems are going into free fall, we can't just "do nothing" as we have been doing, like I said.....if it continues on like this, at some point only the very well heeled will be able to even afford medical insurance. And OUR TAX DOLLARS, A LOT OF TAX DOLLARS will be paying for the people waiting in ERs, a supremely inefficient way to spend our tax dollars for medical care....I don't understand some of your points though, a Hollywood guy getting a face lift would be in a plastic surgeons office, a person getting a transplant is in a hospital, hopefully.
Unless we come to some decision to let people die where they stand (that will be nice and cheery)....Maybe we need people to fly en mass to other countries for their medical care (a phenomenon that is already beginning to happen) so demand will go down.... We have to implement some new ideas, because one thing is for certain and most agree with this, the present system is broken, or at least it's pretty dang ill.
I don't think the Canadian system is the best, but it does cover their citizens... my brother's family (who live in Toronto) are rather happy with it, there is triage there. Sure there are many sides to that story too.
like your points, yes advertising is up...reason, they only have 7 yrs to recoupe all cost or R & D (research and dvelopment)...after that, they have to pay for the equipment buildings chemists to make it etc etc. etc. Then at the end of 7 years they must share the info with the rest of the world.
ok so you work your butt off for 7 years, make some money, but then, then give it all away? Government says so. No more skate board for Willy Beamish!!! You likey??
It's a trade off dude, between capitalism and socialism really. The average drug that makes it to market costs over a billion dollars for the research, test, time and trial required...jumps through a hundred required FDA tests...in the end 1 in 100 are approved. you do the math.
People invest, not the government, in drugs i.e. companies that show promise. In the end, they make some profit, or lose some, not the taxpayers/government....so the company, well heck yeah they work hard to get awareness of their drugs out there in time to recoupe their loss, would't you?
Nobody tells Ford, or Gates, or Phil Knight they must give away their trade secrets every 7 years.
to me, this is as balanced as you can get without creating anarchy and utter discouragement. If you take away all chance at success or profit you will not get the best and brightest, in the real world, that just doen't happen. You ask a guy with 14 year education and kids to feed, how about you make 20K instead of 200....which way will he jump.....???????
and your chances of a cure now or in 3 years just took a nose dive into the idealist abyss of underinformed ignoramusville ala Lenin St.leftovers from the 60's.
hope that helps!
ok so you work your butt off for 7 years, make some money, but then, then give it all away? Government says so. No more skate board for Willy Beamish!!! You likey??
It's a trade off dude, between capitalism and socialism really. The average drug that makes it to market costs over a billion dollars for the research, test, time and trial required...jumps through a hundred required FDA tests...in the end 1 in 100 are approved. you do the math.
People invest, not the government, in drugs i.e. companies that show promise. In the end, they make some profit, or lose some, not the taxpayers/government....so the company, well heck yeah they work hard to get awareness of their drugs out there in time to recoupe their loss, would't you?
Nobody tells Ford, or Gates, or Phil Knight they must give away their trade secrets every 7 years.
to me, this is as balanced as you can get without creating anarchy and utter discouragement. If you take away all chance at success or profit you will not get the best and brightest, in the real world, that just doen't happen. You ask a guy with 14 year education and kids to feed, how about you make 20K instead of 200....which way will he jump.....???????
and your chances of a cure now or in 3 years just took a nose dive into the idealist abyss of underinformed ignoramusville ala Lenin St.leftovers from the 60's.
hope that helps!
o.k. just one more thing..our system at present takes superb care of those who can afford it...i am also insured and i am v glad that yu are too...but we presently have close to 50,000,000 uninsured citizens and they do not get superb care-how is this right?.....and as for the gov't running the program,heck they do a pretty decent job with medicare and the v.a. system use to be a great one...our gov't is fine, it's the dang politicians and lobbyists messing things up-IMHO
calling any of a variety of single payer systems 'socialized' medicine begs the question...bringing up cuba and the ussr is lowbrow fearmongering..our system could take the best ideas from many countrys-i will not list them all,but they include austrailia,japan,germany-and develop an inclusive model with low overhead,low administrative costs and become once again 'the best...cause right now our status is far from the best..our infant mortality rate falls somewhere around 140th in the world-not something to be proud of..we need to spend a great deal more on preventative alternatives-how can a "capitalist",for profit system care about that?..as for paychecks,the best figures put 2 or 3 million people employed just refusing or DENYING health care -surely there are more productive ways to earn a living...we will never agree about this issue,but the fact that the for profit industry can spend nearly half a billion dollars influencing(LOBBYING) this decision makes for a very corrupted debate...and by the way the drug companys now spend more money advertising then they do on research
1. sorry I put this thread on the wrong side.
2. I'm not rich. I have decent insurance for the first time in my life the last 2 years. AND I disagree with senators and congressmen cutting in line in front of everyone else.
HOWEVER, the canadian system sucks. If you have stage 1 Hep C, and I have stage 4, then I'm sorry but I should get to cut in line in front of you. that's called triage. In a war, the person whose jugular is spirting gets on the surgeons table and the man with a limp and a flesh wound waits a little longer as a result of it, he's not gonna die in lie like the other guy. In socialsm no such distinction is made.
THAT IS NUTS. nobody likes waiting rooms, I've waited months to see docs. But if its major, if you rush your comatose kid into emergency do you want the doc to finish seeing the constipated pizza eater or deal with your child?? It's not rocket science.
we need to give our system the ability to think and discern intelligently and not make hard fast rules that deprive some of life because the rules say they cannot discern. there's a difference between discerning, and discriminating.
If a hollywood guy gets a OR table for his 5th face lift and I have to wait for a transplant as a result that's discrimination. If I get a liver before you because I'm blown up like a blow fish and you just have fevers, that's discernment. It matters not where we were in line, let's allow our system the right to save as many as possible. Government buraucracy is the death nell to this reasoning.
2. I'm not rich. I have decent insurance for the first time in my life the last 2 years. AND I disagree with senators and congressmen cutting in line in front of everyone else.
HOWEVER, the canadian system sucks. If you have stage 1 Hep C, and I have stage 4, then I'm sorry but I should get to cut in line in front of you. that's called triage. In a war, the person whose jugular is spirting gets on the surgeons table and the man with a limp and a flesh wound waits a little longer as a result of it, he's not gonna die in lie like the other guy. In socialsm no such distinction is made.
THAT IS NUTS. nobody likes waiting rooms, I've waited months to see docs. But if its major, if you rush your comatose kid into emergency do you want the doc to finish seeing the constipated pizza eater or deal with your child?? It's not rocket science.
we need to give our system the ability to think and discern intelligently and not make hard fast rules that deprive some of life because the rules say they cannot discern. there's a difference between discerning, and discriminating.
If a hollywood guy gets a OR table for his 5th face lift and I have to wait for a transplant as a result that's discrimination. If I get a liver before you because I'm blown up like a blow fish and you just have fevers, that's discernment. It matters not where we were in line, let's allow our system the right to save as many as possible. Government buraucracy is the death nell to this reasoning.
wow, lots of ideas. I've been without insurance for several of the last 20 years so I've seen both sides of this.
bottom line, thank God we aren't going to third rate doctors in countries with no research, clinics full of flies and the latest discovery was how to keep aspirin dry! Our system is flawed, but needs fixing, NOT socializing, and thats already happening. Middlemen are being eliminated, they do their job or get sued easier than before, and the private system is improving in spite of tremendous strains on it right now.
some here know this, some what perfection...
we live in the real not the ideal world. A company has to build huge facilities, pay huge salaries for huge labor, docs and research, and at the end of the day make a profit to repay both the stock holders who lent their life savings to build the company, and have enough left over for research and development into the next life saving substance.
If utopia were possible, everyone would work for free to serve mankind, government would do a much more efficient job than the private sector, and cutting out all profits wouldn't slow down research one bit.
but does that world exist or could it ever? Who has come up with 90 percent of the worlds cures in the last 50 years. would that be USA or all the rest of the world combined. Answer USA.
All abuses aside, and we know there are many, capitalism works and it funds more research than any other system.
Folks are up in arms that the evil drug company gave away billions of drugs and formulas to third world nations. Are they complaining that when the company found a 60 percent cure they gave their 50 percent cure worth billion away to the impoverished? Complaining there are side effects as if the new things don't have sides or are not as or more risky? Complaining that the company sold drugs for a profit, and then pumped 10-20 percent back into more research? What exactly is their complaint. OH, I know, everybody got a pay check!!!
which of you does not want a pay check? Which of you does not want a return on your investment?
Idealism is the domain of the young, as you age, you begin to understand the real world, what works and what does not.
We can all want fairness, but sometimes fairness is letting the systems play themselves out until we see what works, and what does not. Who here wants to live in cuba or the "new" old USSR....
trade anyone? why not? It's where one canidate thinks we should go!!!!!
bottom line, thank God we aren't going to third rate doctors in countries with no research, clinics full of flies and the latest discovery was how to keep aspirin dry! Our system is flawed, but needs fixing, NOT socializing, and thats already happening. Middlemen are being eliminated, they do their job or get sued easier than before, and the private system is improving in spite of tremendous strains on it right now.
some here know this, some what perfection...
we live in the real not the ideal world. A company has to build huge facilities, pay huge salaries for huge labor, docs and research, and at the end of the day make a profit to repay both the stock holders who lent their life savings to build the company, and have enough left over for research and development into the next life saving substance.
If utopia were possible, everyone would work for free to serve mankind, government would do a much more efficient job than the private sector, and cutting out all profits wouldn't slow down research one bit.
but does that world exist or could it ever? Who has come up with 90 percent of the worlds cures in the last 50 years. would that be USA or all the rest of the world combined. Answer USA.
All abuses aside, and we know there are many, capitalism works and it funds more research than any other system.
Folks are up in arms that the evil drug company gave away billions of drugs and formulas to third world nations. Are they complaining that when the company found a 60 percent cure they gave their 50 percent cure worth billion away to the impoverished? Complaining there are side effects as if the new things don't have sides or are not as or more risky? Complaining that the company sold drugs for a profit, and then pumped 10-20 percent back into more research? What exactly is their complaint. OH, I know, everybody got a pay check!!!
which of you does not want a pay check? Which of you does not want a return on your investment?
Idealism is the domain of the young, as you age, you begin to understand the real world, what works and what does not.
We can all want fairness, but sometimes fairness is letting the systems play themselves out until we see what works, and what does not. Who here wants to live in cuba or the "new" old USSR....
trade anyone? why not? It's where one canidate thinks we should go!!!!!
my number for health insurance premiums was missing a couple of o's..should have read: 776,000,000,000-that's billions of dollars..sorry to get yr dander up mike..i wasn't trying to.
I just noticed that the above url comes from 1999, so that list is incomplete. By 2007, the number of innovations is way greater.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/mfaarchive/1990_1999/1999/8/focus%20on%20israel%20-%20innovations%20in%20medical%20technolog
Go to about 2/3 of the way down the page and you will see a list: "Examples of Medical Devices and Equipment Pioneered in Israel"
Go to about 2/3 of the way down the page and you will see a list: "Examples of Medical Devices and Equipment Pioneered in Israel"
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