Aa
melatonin as an antifibrotic
I don't know when I first read of Melatonin's benefits to the liver.
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
It was about when HR was explaining liver funtions that I went reading and discovered that the reason HCV people didn't sleep well was due to not enough HGH from the pituitary and not enough melatonin from the liver whih leads to poor sleep, tongue swelling and sleep apneas.
Anyway I was already on HGH and added melatonin to my regime.
However, here' another study suggesting that melatonin is an antioxidant and reduced fibrosis and several key oxidative markers in rats. Ergo it should help us as well.....with more than just sleep.
apologies if someone already posted this study, I've not been around much lately.
http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/15/1452.asp
GD---chorkle...can't I be goofy too once in a while...I think as a fungi you oughta think salads more often!!!
Robo, thanks for the article, I've been trying to plough through last weeks conference but there's so much it's hard take it all in...
at least we can be thankful that research is going forward in this regard.
that will probably never solve the viral problem though.
what I don't get...is why not put us on alinia, other anti virals, protease inhibitors, anti fibrotics etc etc. The answer docs have given me is "they don't want to end up with more resistant strains"....ok, makes sense, better a few million die now than a billion later......... but if that's the case, then why are HIV patients on a 20 drug cocktail of similar products??
I mean, if they aren't worried about AIDs taking a turn for the worse, then it hardly makes sense to deny some maintainence level treatment to hcv patients, until a cure can be found. Just saying..the logic of treating one retrovirus to stop it's progression and not the other seems discriminatory.
mb
Robo, thanks for the article, I've been trying to plough through last weeks conference but there's so much it's hard take it all in...
at least we can be thankful that research is going forward in this regard.
that will probably never solve the viral problem though.
what I don't get...is why not put us on alinia, other anti virals, protease inhibitors, anti fibrotics etc etc. The answer docs have given me is "they don't want to end up with more resistant strains"....ok, makes sense, better a few million die now than a billion later......... but if that's the case, then why are HIV patients on a 20 drug cocktail of similar products??
I mean, if they aren't worried about AIDs taking a turn for the worse, then it hardly makes sense to deny some maintainence level treatment to hcv patients, until a cure can be found. Just saying..the logic of treating one retrovirus to stop it's progression and not the other seems discriminatory.
mb
I've read similar posts/articles regarding the benefit of Melatonin.
Perhaps treating the underlying viral infection as well as revitalizing the liver is a more well-rounded approach to treatment. Other antifibrotic traetments i've read about are Vitamin D, ACE inhibitors (Losartan) and others.
Here is a link to a lecture given at AASLD covering antifibrotic therapy. It's a little long but you can skip through as needed.
http://74.43.177.57/courses/2008/pg/wells/player.html
Best,
Robo
Perhaps treating the underlying viral infection as well as revitalizing the liver is a more well-rounded approach to treatment. Other antifibrotic traetments i've read about are Vitamin D, ACE inhibitors (Losartan) and others.
Here is a link to a lecture given at AASLD covering antifibrotic therapy. It's a little long but you can skip through as needed.
http://74.43.177.57/courses/2008/pg/wells/player.html
Best,
Robo
I dont go out hunting for mushrooms in the forests or on the streets and i dont grow them either and i dont get them overseas,A company called New Chapter produces certified organic safe products from USA.If you dont like mushroom extracts,ive herad the somple white button shroom is just as good ...now go toss your salad
"come on over and toss my salad "
Uhhhh..... I googled your suggestion to see what I might be getting myself into. I trust you'll understand if I take a pass, for now anyways?
You goofy dude you...only a really fun-gi like you woulda thought of that one....
come on over and toss my salad daddy-0!!!
rocker...shrooms behave much like weeds in an organic garden...not sure you'll beleive this but with my own eyes I've seen it countless times...you plant a vegetable, and it's idenitcal wild cousin will show up in the bed. Hard to tell the weed from the veggie...don't know why this happens, but it does..
same with fungi..you could have a poisonous shroom growing with it's harmless cousin, the fungal roots can travel miles undergound and come up anywhere...and unless someone is really well trained a poisonous one could be growing right in the midst of it's harmless neighbors....and you could not tell the difference.
I farmed near to a man with a vast knowledge of mushrooms so am somewhat familiar with them thanks to him. Even though most mushrooms are harmless there are quite a few that do cause mild disturbances (and are liver toxic) and of course there are a few that are fatal. I'm simply not of a mind to let anyone else cap these suckers up for me, because it only takes a little of the wrong thing to do serious damage. (we had four people's liver fail here in the NW a few years ago from one dish with wild mushrooms in it.) You want to eat local mushrooms buy them fresh and go to town, but to buy things grown or gathered overseas, with no assurance of quality control...that may put a cramp in your fun-guy status. I'm trying to keep the fun-gal going so I shall abstain from most fungi to enjoy funguys for longer!!
mb
come on over and toss my salad daddy-0!!!
rocker...shrooms behave much like weeds in an organic garden...not sure you'll beleive this but with my own eyes I've seen it countless times...you plant a vegetable, and it's idenitcal wild cousin will show up in the bed. Hard to tell the weed from the veggie...don't know why this happens, but it does..
same with fungi..you could have a poisonous shroom growing with it's harmless cousin, the fungal roots can travel miles undergound and come up anywhere...and unless someone is really well trained a poisonous one could be growing right in the midst of it's harmless neighbors....and you could not tell the difference.
I farmed near to a man with a vast knowledge of mushrooms so am somewhat familiar with them thanks to him. Even though most mushrooms are harmless there are quite a few that do cause mild disturbances (and are liver toxic) and of course there are a few that are fatal. I'm simply not of a mind to let anyone else cap these suckers up for me, because it only takes a little of the wrong thing to do serious damage. (we had four people's liver fail here in the NW a few years ago from one dish with wild mushrooms in it.) You want to eat local mushrooms buy them fresh and go to town, but to buy things grown or gathered overseas, with no assurance of quality control...that may put a cramp in your fun-guy status. I'm trying to keep the fun-gal going so I shall abstain from most fungi to enjoy funguys for longer!!
mb
"Kind of like what happens if you have too many word docs open at the same time, or explorer windows, eventually it slows down the system to a crawl, right?"
"Does this mean you dont eat mushrooms?..."
Nahh... I think the message here is not to date more than 2 or 3 gals at a time.... but you can share a mushroom salad with one, mushroom quiche with another, and show the third you're a real fun guy...
"Does this mean you dont eat mushrooms?..."
Nahh... I think the message here is not to date more than 2 or 3 gals at a time.... but you can share a mushroom salad with one, mushroom quiche with another, and show the third you're a real fun guy...
Matt,
the main issue with MEL was back when it was being synthesized as plain old tryptophan, and we ended up with one bad batch from the japanese which put a lot of people off of it. The way it is synthesize now is more safe and stable, and if you stick with a good supplier you'll be fine. Her's where quality control and testing can make a difference.
It's true you can get it from some foods, but not in sufficient amounts, especially in late stage liver disease. Remember in late stages you'll be walking around with the liver of a ten year old, or a 7 year old, and on down...and still carrying your big adult body with all it's requirements.
At this stage you'd be better off to use the MEL tablets because rest is crucial to fighting this disease and your liver cannot process all it's food correctly nor can in conjugate enough into the usable form (Mel6) even if the pineal is sending enough Mel down to the liver, because it still has to be processed into the usable form before it works and absent enough liver cells, and P450 cytochromes to process etc, that will not happen.
The issue is two fold really, 1. every drug or herb used, food too for that matter, you take in uses up cytochromes, the iron rich proteins responsible for enzymatic changes to compounds entering the system. 2. How best to balance the intake to match the system requirements.
If the system is compromised you have less available bandwidth so to speak.
It then becomes more advantageous to find out which drugs can interact and or overwhelm the system. For instance too many drugs on one cytochrome may cause an overload. Kind of like what happens if you have too many word docs open at the same time, or explorer windows, eventually it slows down the system to a crawl, right? well the same is true of your liver,,,too many things on one cytochrome can lead to allergic reaction, on another cytochrome it causes liver cancer, free radical to form, if you overwhelm it. We got into this somewhat on my P450 thread...if you'd care to read it, I can provide more references for those interested but it's pretty darn complex and not for everybody. Wish sometimes I could do it the simple way and just "take this cause it's good for ya"...but I've learned the hard way and seen others suffer from that enough to have to do it the other way now.
mb
the main issue with MEL was back when it was being synthesized as plain old tryptophan, and we ended up with one bad batch from the japanese which put a lot of people off of it. The way it is synthesize now is more safe and stable, and if you stick with a good supplier you'll be fine. Her's where quality control and testing can make a difference.
It's true you can get it from some foods, but not in sufficient amounts, especially in late stage liver disease. Remember in late stages you'll be walking around with the liver of a ten year old, or a 7 year old, and on down...and still carrying your big adult body with all it's requirements.
At this stage you'd be better off to use the MEL tablets because rest is crucial to fighting this disease and your liver cannot process all it's food correctly nor can in conjugate enough into the usable form (Mel6) even if the pineal is sending enough Mel down to the liver, because it still has to be processed into the usable form before it works and absent enough liver cells, and P450 cytochromes to process etc, that will not happen.
The issue is two fold really, 1. every drug or herb used, food too for that matter, you take in uses up cytochromes, the iron rich proteins responsible for enzymatic changes to compounds entering the system. 2. How best to balance the intake to match the system requirements.
If the system is compromised you have less available bandwidth so to speak.
It then becomes more advantageous to find out which drugs can interact and or overwhelm the system. For instance too many drugs on one cytochrome may cause an overload. Kind of like what happens if you have too many word docs open at the same time, or explorer windows, eventually it slows down the system to a crawl, right? well the same is true of your liver,,,too many things on one cytochrome can lead to allergic reaction, on another cytochrome it causes liver cancer, free radical to form, if you overwhelm it. We got into this somewhat on my P450 thread...if you'd care to read it, I can provide more references for those interested but it's pretty darn complex and not for everybody. Wish sometimes I could do it the simple way and just "take this cause it's good for ya"...but I've learned the hard way and seen others suffer from that enough to have to do it the other way now.
mb
Rocker, yes, I am adding things slowly, but I feel like I have to plow through a host of research before doing so. Otherwise I may be solving for one issue and creating another.
Mainly my issue is that we must look at ALL the facts...for instance some herbs lower cholesterol, not good if ours is already low as liver people sometime arethen too, some things, such as capsaisin (pepper) can irritate the bowel causing leaky gut, it works as an antiinflammatory BECAUSE it causes inflammation, and ergo a stronger response TO the inflammation in theory produces a stronger antiinflammatory response, however this can backfire with a compromised liver.
Both the liver and the gut may be unable to handle such a drastic compound.
Same with mushroom therapy, it counter intuitive. Some mushrooms create an immune response (some go so far as to shut down the liver permanently). My issue is why risk that the body will muster when you know the liver is limping along at best.
Years ago a doc gave me this analogy for my anaphylaxic incidents... and it's a good one. Say you have a bath tub...and you turn on one spiget to fill the tub. The tub fills slowly, and doesn't overflo.....but turn on ten or 20 spigets, and the tub overflo's pronto. Same with drug, herbs and the liver. All foods, all herbs, all drinks are also drugs of a sort...they all deliver molecules, some very powerful. The trick is to pick the molecules that will do the least harm, and overwhelming while simultaneously trying to improve immune response and lessen cell death and inflammation.
And with the oils you must watch for rancidity.
I've had conversations with Life Extension site about this and would trust them over most providers due to their storage practices and their high turnover, but with oils getting the cheapest source may mean more rancidity issues which is death to a bad liver.
So as I said before, run things through the pub med and Mayo clinic filters and don't just assume what works on a stage one liver will work the same on a stage 4 liver.
The idea should be to do things fully informed, not just taking the word of some vitamin saleman's research. Take into account your stage of disease also...sometimes every possible helper is not wisdom just because you can overwhelm the system.
also realize this, many herbs can interfere with the Rx's we are on.
One really needs to do their homework here. Google your drugs with the herbs you plan on adding and see what comes up. Also google your conditions with the herbs.
Herbs are DRUGS too..just in less refine forms.
Example: a guy last week takes vinegar and baking soda, he has liver disease...what's wrong with that picture? Just because some health food site said do it doesn't make it wisdom. STUDY...or pay a price.
Honestly, I think some people do more research on their phone or their car than they do before adding a drug or herb to their regime. This is just wrong...you can't always undo bad health choices so a little caution is in order here, big time.
Not saying this is your MO...just hoping a few folks think about it.
I'm definitely not against all natural remedies, quite the opposite...I could quote Adel Davis and Durk Parson and Sandy Shaw before you were born and have hardbound first editions of all their works....but that does not mean we shouldn't follow the science and make darn sure it is sound. Over time many supplements have been proven to be unabsorbable, or to imbalance the system is not given in concert with their normally occuring cousins (ex: cal/mag/vitA/vitD) right proportion nessesary for absorption) so once must be vigilant to be knowing what works and what does not.
I cut my teeth on learning about all that stuff but am having to revisit the science since mine has grown rusty.
mb
Mainly my issue is that we must look at ALL the facts...for instance some herbs lower cholesterol, not good if ours is already low as liver people sometime arethen too, some things, such as capsaisin (pepper) can irritate the bowel causing leaky gut, it works as an antiinflammatory BECAUSE it causes inflammation, and ergo a stronger response TO the inflammation in theory produces a stronger antiinflammatory response, however this can backfire with a compromised liver.
Both the liver and the gut may be unable to handle such a drastic compound.
Same with mushroom therapy, it counter intuitive. Some mushrooms create an immune response (some go so far as to shut down the liver permanently). My issue is why risk that the body will muster when you know the liver is limping along at best.
Years ago a doc gave me this analogy for my anaphylaxic incidents... and it's a good one. Say you have a bath tub...and you turn on one spiget to fill the tub. The tub fills slowly, and doesn't overflo.....but turn on ten or 20 spigets, and the tub overflo's pronto. Same with drug, herbs and the liver. All foods, all herbs, all drinks are also drugs of a sort...they all deliver molecules, some very powerful. The trick is to pick the molecules that will do the least harm, and overwhelming while simultaneously trying to improve immune response and lessen cell death and inflammation.
And with the oils you must watch for rancidity.
I've had conversations with Life Extension site about this and would trust them over most providers due to their storage practices and their high turnover, but with oils getting the cheapest source may mean more rancidity issues which is death to a bad liver.
So as I said before, run things through the pub med and Mayo clinic filters and don't just assume what works on a stage one liver will work the same on a stage 4 liver.
The idea should be to do things fully informed, not just taking the word of some vitamin saleman's research. Take into account your stage of disease also...sometimes every possible helper is not wisdom just because you can overwhelm the system.
also realize this, many herbs can interfere with the Rx's we are on.
One really needs to do their homework here. Google your drugs with the herbs you plan on adding and see what comes up. Also google your conditions with the herbs.
Herbs are DRUGS too..just in less refine forms.
Example: a guy last week takes vinegar and baking soda, he has liver disease...what's wrong with that picture? Just because some health food site said do it doesn't make it wisdom. STUDY...or pay a price.
Honestly, I think some people do more research on their phone or their car than they do before adding a drug or herb to their regime. This is just wrong...you can't always undo bad health choices so a little caution is in order here, big time.
Not saying this is your MO...just hoping a few folks think about it.
I'm definitely not against all natural remedies, quite the opposite...I could quote Adel Davis and Durk Parson and Sandy Shaw before you were born and have hardbound first editions of all their works....but that does not mean we shouldn't follow the science and make darn sure it is sound. Over time many supplements have been proven to be unabsorbable, or to imbalance the system is not given in concert with their normally occuring cousins (ex: cal/mag/vitA/vitD) right proportion nessesary for absorption) so once must be vigilant to be knowing what works and what does not.
I cut my teeth on learning about all that stuff but am having to revisit the science since mine has grown rusty.
mb
You can also get small amounts of Melatonin naturally from things like Apples, Ginger Root, Rice, Tomatoes, Bananas, Pineapples, Oranges, Strawberries, Kiwi, Spinach, etc.
The synthetic version contained in pill form has some side-effects. Whereas the plant-based version does not.
The synthetic version contained in pill form has some side-effects. Whereas the plant-based version does not.
I guess you are taking other superfoods as weel?...have you checked out medicinal mushrooms and other stuff...im betting you have...how bout LDN?
Update on the melatonin connections. I've upped my dose to 2 mg. and plan to go to 3 soon.
this has allowed me to correct my clock reversal (sleeping days not nights) which is a common problem in late stage liver disease caused by the liver not conjugating as well as well as a slowed secrection from most of the endocrine system.
I have no halved my sleep meds, and am able to fall asleep within 30 minutes, unlike before the mel, when even on 12. mg Ambien CR I would still be up all night.
So this is really working for me. It also aides inflammation, and here's a good article about how it is VERY preventative for both
preventing LIVER CANCER,
and recovering from SURGERIES.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248566/
mb
this has allowed me to correct my clock reversal (sleeping days not nights) which is a common problem in late stage liver disease caused by the liver not conjugating as well as well as a slowed secrection from most of the endocrine system.
I have no halved my sleep meds, and am able to fall asleep within 30 minutes, unlike before the mel, when even on 12. mg Ambien CR I would still be up all night.
So this is really working for me. It also aides inflammation, and here's a good article about how it is VERY preventative for both
preventing LIVER CANCER,
and recovering from SURGERIES.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248566/
mb
sorry, I get my wbc and platlets mixed up sometimes...not sure why. If I start mistaking my HGH for TSH or hgb for hematotit take me to the woodshed by all means!! But seriously, I shouldn't read when I'm tired as too often it proves my undoing.
at least it helps his platelets, lets look at the bright side. But neupo remains safe, oh darn.
As to the melatonin however, I remember when this was first discovered..at that time the less refined L-tryptophan was in use. (Until Japan gave us one bad batch and the FDA banned it.
But the research was done long ago, and so Goofy you are right and wrong simultaneously there.
The Pineal makes it true, but so does the intestines, eyeballs skin and more, but they make MEL in a nonuasable form, and it has to be conjugated in the liver before it gets used, as do many hormones. \
MEL is converted to 6-HMEL and further a sulfate is added..then it does it's number and is expelled by the kidneys.
There are a whole lot of hormones that strictly speaking originate in the pineal or pituitary but are really reliant on the liver's metabolic effects before they have any actual effects on the body.
Ergo in essense unless the liver "makes" it...conjugates it into a usable form by adding the appropriate isotopes, then it's no go. So the liver really does make the final product.
Because with liver disease the ability to conjugate, to convert hormonal chemical signals into usable products, is diminished I think the idea of supplementation of known essentials such as Sam-e, melatonin, even cholesterol in some cases, makes a lot of sense.
I did check out some studies on P450 and how melatonin is broken down,( I do that for all my meds and vitamins now)...which were interesting but not something everyone will appreciate. It was encouaging to see that melatonin has been classified as a freeradical scavenger...although the mehanisms are not well undestood..my keyboard is fried, 2 keys are going bye bye.. orry..
mb
at least it helps his platelets, lets look at the bright side. But neupo remains safe, oh darn.
As to the melatonin however, I remember when this was first discovered..at that time the less refined L-tryptophan was in use. (Until Japan gave us one bad batch and the FDA banned it.
But the research was done long ago, and so Goofy you are right and wrong simultaneously there.
The Pineal makes it true, but so does the intestines, eyeballs skin and more, but they make MEL in a nonuasable form, and it has to be conjugated in the liver before it gets used, as do many hormones. \
MEL is converted to 6-HMEL and further a sulfate is added..then it does it's number and is expelled by the kidneys.
There are a whole lot of hormones that strictly speaking originate in the pineal or pituitary but are really reliant on the liver's metabolic effects before they have any actual effects on the body.
Ergo in essense unless the liver "makes" it...conjugates it into a usable form by adding the appropriate isotopes, then it's no go. So the liver really does make the final product.
Because with liver disease the ability to conjugate, to convert hormonal chemical signals into usable products, is diminished I think the idea of supplementation of known essentials such as Sam-e, melatonin, even cholesterol in some cases, makes a lot of sense.
I did check out some studies on P450 and how melatonin is broken down,( I do that for all my meds and vitamins now)...which were interesting but not something everyone will appreciate. It was encouaging to see that melatonin has been classified as a freeradical scavenger...although the mehanisms are not well undestood..my keyboard is fried, 2 keys are going bye bye.. orry..
mb
Merry: To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Me: I believe melatonin is primarily produced by the pineal gland and cleared by the liver.
-------------------------------
Merry: Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
Me: That seems like an awfully long ergo-jump to me... platelet counts are notorious for floating up and down throughout tx. Actually a whole string of jumps as neccessary to connect melatonin to REM to HGH to increased platelet production.
---------------------------------------
Merry: You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
Me: Huh?
--------------------------------------
Still, given that melatonin is generally regarded as safe (GRAS) and has demonstrated ability to mitigate fibrosis leading to cirrhosis (albeit in rats) , a little bit seems like a reasonable approach to me....
Me: I believe melatonin is primarily produced by the pineal gland and cleared by the liver.
-------------------------------
Merry: Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
Me: That seems like an awfully long ergo-jump to me... platelet counts are notorious for floating up and down throughout tx. Actually a whole string of jumps as neccessary to connect melatonin to REM to HGH to increased platelet production.
---------------------------------------
Merry: You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
Me: Huh?
--------------------------------------
Still, given that melatonin is generally regarded as safe (GRAS) and has demonstrated ability to mitigate fibrosis leading to cirrhosis (albeit in rats) , a little bit seems like a reasonable approach to me....
Joe's white count and neutophil percent has remained low. Only his platelets went up. Joe has needed lots of procrit for hgb but so far has avoided needing Neupogen. His ANC went down to 167.5 a week ago and the Dr. had him repeat his cbc to see if it was a fluke because it dropped abnormally fast after being low but stable all year long on tx. Sure enopugh they were right. We repeated the blood work and everything came back better this time so still no Neupogen needed. Joe had a staff infection and was taking Bactrim for it when the 1st cbc was run so maybe that had caused the sudden change. His hemoglobin had gone from 8.6 up to 9.5 in that week which was also interesting. 9.5 is really, really good for Joe. On may 27th it was 7.2 and he had to have a blood tranfusion.September of 2008 was the last time Joe has been up to 9.5! He has been on treatment since June 1st 2008. I don't know what caused the increase but he feels a lot better right now and I'm just saying thank you prayers.
Ev
Ev
I was not born under a rock. I know why rats are used in science. My point is that just because melatonin helped with fibrosis in rats, does not mean it will help in humans. And I stand by that. there have been too many meds that looked good in rats, but ended up hurting humans. If I remember correctly BILN was one of them. Melatonin for sleep is allowed by my gastro also. Melatonin for sleep aid is not a new thing.
thank you for running that by your Hepatologist-it bolsters my confidence in my new one.
Jenny
the reason rats are used so much in lab experimentation is because their responses are the closest biologically of all the small animals. We could use apes, the closest to us genetically, but it is very spendy and we would have no where near the info doing it that way.
However of all the critters that are cheap and plentiful rat metabolism is closest to our own. Not an exact match mind you....they do clear some drugs faster or slower than we do, depending on the drug. But rats are invaluable to see if a substance is harming or helping organs, or helping one at the expense of another. Part of the reasoning behind higher dosing is to also assess the toxicology, or what if anything happens with too much of a substance.
I'm grateful personally, that a whole lot of rats are given drugs before they reach Phase I human trials.
Obviously if someone is a kidney, or liver patient one has to carefully assess any food or drug one takes. With kidney dysfunction vitamin C, caffiene, protein and much much more must be curtailed. That does not mean however that we at risk taking any and every product. Both foods, herbs, and RX's all need scrutiny based on ones own state of health.
Certainly if your kidneys have limited clearance capacity then the dosing of many medications needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Frank,
I ran this by my Hepatologist as well, and he was fine with it.
It's good to at last see some doctors taking an active role in acknowledging that some non-drug company products have significant value. To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Evangeline,
the more I think about this the more
I'm really impressed with Joe's platelet changes.
It's very reasonable to assume the melatonin could achieve this since it allows for deeper sleep. The body doesn't release Growth hormone until one gets to stage 3, and primarily stage 4 sleep. Then the pituitary sends the signal to replace old cells, and make new blood. It only releases this for a few seconds each night, and minut amounts daytime.
If one doesn't get down into that short lived but very deep REM stage 4 sleep, then much less cell replacement goes on due to this design.
Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
If I was an unscrupulous drug company, (and some are while some are not)...but if I were one I'd be setting up fake websites to warn people away and tell them how dangerous melatonin is...after all, they are selling neupogen for several THOUSAND a month. If an over the counter product costing 10 bucks can do things just as well....then they really have trouble at their door.
mb
the reason rats are used so much in lab experimentation is because their responses are the closest biologically of all the small animals. We could use apes, the closest to us genetically, but it is very spendy and we would have no where near the info doing it that way.
However of all the critters that are cheap and plentiful rat metabolism is closest to our own. Not an exact match mind you....they do clear some drugs faster or slower than we do, depending on the drug. But rats are invaluable to see if a substance is harming or helping organs, or helping one at the expense of another. Part of the reasoning behind higher dosing is to also assess the toxicology, or what if anything happens with too much of a substance.
I'm grateful personally, that a whole lot of rats are given drugs before they reach Phase I human trials.
Obviously if someone is a kidney, or liver patient one has to carefully assess any food or drug one takes. With kidney dysfunction vitamin C, caffiene, protein and much much more must be curtailed. That does not mean however that we at risk taking any and every product. Both foods, herbs, and RX's all need scrutiny based on ones own state of health.
Certainly if your kidneys have limited clearance capacity then the dosing of many medications needs to be adjusted accordingly.
Frank,
I ran this by my Hepatologist as well, and he was fine with it.
It's good to at last see some doctors taking an active role in acknowledging that some non-drug company products have significant value. To use the exact substance the liver normally makes to help us sleep seems a vastly safer alternative than to use prescription sleep meds given all their contraindications and side effects.
Evangeline,
the more I think about this the more
I'm really impressed with Joe's platelet changes.
It's very reasonable to assume the melatonin could achieve this since it allows for deeper sleep. The body doesn't release Growth hormone until one gets to stage 3, and primarily stage 4 sleep. Then the pituitary sends the signal to replace old cells, and make new blood. It only releases this for a few seconds each night, and minut amounts daytime.
If one doesn't get down into that short lived but very deep REM stage 4 sleep, then much less cell replacement goes on due to this design.
Ergo the jump in platelets means his sleep was deeper so his pituitary output of Human Growth Hormone went up...hence more new blood was made.
You know, this stuff could give neupo a run for it's money, if medicine ever ferrets it out.
If I was an unscrupulous drug company, (and some are while some are not)...but if I were one I'd be setting up fake websites to warn people away and tell them how dangerous melatonin is...after all, they are selling neupogen for several THOUSAND a month. If an over the counter product costing 10 bucks can do things just as well....then they really have trouble at their door.
mb
I just got off the phone with my hep-doc after reading the post about Melatonin yesterday
and he agrees it helps w sleep and can elevate platelets-in fact people who are on high levels of radiation and Chemo are benefitting . UT MD Anderson-one of the leading Cancer institutes in the nation is starting a study and he is a fellow there and asked me if I would like to talk to him about starting a low dose when I see him on the 21st because my platelets are low. I just love this Forum! Before I found it I was just spinning in the dark!
and he agrees it helps w sleep and can elevate platelets-in fact people who are on high levels of radiation and Chemo are benefitting . UT MD Anderson-one of the leading Cancer institutes in the nation is starting a study and he is a fellow there and asked me if I would like to talk to him about starting a low dose when I see him on the 21st because my platelets are low. I just love this Forum! Before I found it I was just spinning in the dark!
I wasn't aware of all the other benefits.
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Just because it seemed to have a benefit in rats, that does not translate to a benefit in people. You must be very careful with those assumptions. They can be dangerous, especially to liver or kidney patients.
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Just because it seemed to have a benefit in rats, that does not translate to a benefit in people. You must be very careful with those assumptions. They can be dangerous, especially to liver or kidney patients.
wow, thanks for that info...that's really a benefit to be sure!
So glad you two are hanging in there.
I'm not sure I'd worry about Joe not making his own. Taking breaks would make sense, if a persons liver were normal, but Joes liver is far from normal and so we know he will not be making enough on his own. So I'd suggest he stay on it...the platlet level alone should be making that very clear.
I think it would vary from person to person how much to take. For me, I get headaches when I take too much. Even when on no other sleep aides and way before diagnosis I had this problem with Melatonin, but that doesn't mean everyone will.
I wish HR were around to expound on this subject.
Maybe I can find out how much melatonin a normal liver makes eah day...then we can all adjust our by a formula based on our lower outputs depending on our stage...joke..
...like that'll ever happen....just me fantasizing about an ideal world giggle...
I'm really humbled by how wondefully you've been caring for Joe all these years,
you really are an inspiration, not to mention knowledgable
So glad you two are hanging in there.
I'm not sure I'd worry about Joe not making his own. Taking breaks would make sense, if a persons liver were normal, but Joes liver is far from normal and so we know he will not be making enough on his own. So I'd suggest he stay on it...the platlet level alone should be making that very clear.
I think it would vary from person to person how much to take. For me, I get headaches when I take too much. Even when on no other sleep aides and way before diagnosis I had this problem with Melatonin, but that doesn't mean everyone will.
I wish HR were around to expound on this subject.
Maybe I can find out how much melatonin a normal liver makes eah day...then we can all adjust our by a formula based on our lower outputs depending on our stage...joke..
...like that'll ever happen....just me fantasizing about an ideal world giggle...
I'm really humbled by how wondefully you've been caring for Joe all these years,
you really are an inspiration, not to mention knowledgable
Thanks for the info. Have used Melatonin for sleep since I started tx. 10mg.
I wasn't aware of all the other benefits.
Thanks again - Lynne
I have a bit to add to this topic. I started giving Joe high doses of melatonin a year or so ago to help his low platelets. I knew his platelets in the 40's were too low to to retreat and I had read on Life extension Foundation's website that some Doctors were using it in high doses to keep up platlets in their cancer patients. I started giving him 10 mg. with no obvious ill effects and his platlets did seem to rise a little. They were 63 when he started treating a year and 1 month ago and they remained in good shape until a couple of months after I had stopped giving him melatonin. His platlets didn't plunge, they just slowly sunk .At the end of May they were at 48 so I decided to get melatonin going again. It comes in 10 mg. tablets and this time I gave him 2 every night. He is exhausted and sleeps alot from the the tx drugs but didn't seem any worse after starting this regime. His platlets came back today at 83! This is the best Joe has had in a very long time. I can't remember exactly why I stopped giving them to him when I did. 20 mg. caused a bigger and faster rise than the 10 but 10 was probably enough so at some point here I will back him down to 10mg. and stay there until he stops treating. I think I read somewhere that it is a good idea to take breaks from using it so your body doesn't stop producing its own. I don't know if this is a valid concern or not.
Ev
Ev
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