Aa
pharma vs holistic hep c treatment
Along comes this HVC after hitching a ride for about 25/30 years. Read lots on the net about past and present pharma and natural herbal therapys,side effects and degrees of success on both sides. Without being derogatory, I'll call'em the Suits and the Hippies.
The Suits have some very convincing momentum in the battle against HVC for us but at a cost, both financial and side effect prone with varying success. The Hippies seem to be gaining (by my observation from the failure of the Suits) some momentum with less costs, little to no side effects with claims of degrees of success. Both are advancing in their knowledge and help so I must add I praise them all for effort.
Non are going to disappear tomorrow, nor am I but here's my question finally. Has anyone given any particular, less invasive and side effect prone Hippy strategy to return to (full health HVC wise) or is this more often used as a last resort (as I seem to gleen) after the Suits have had their chance but left you less than satified with their end result.
(If they would only get their collective knowledgeable heads together for all our benefits.)
Theewoodman
The Suits have some very convincing momentum in the battle against HVC for us but at a cost, both financial and side effect prone with varying success. The Hippies seem to be gaining (by my observation from the failure of the Suits) some momentum with less costs, little to no side effects with claims of degrees of success. Both are advancing in their knowledge and help so I must add I praise them all for effort.
Non are going to disappear tomorrow, nor am I but here's my question finally. Has anyone given any particular, less invasive and side effect prone Hippy strategy to return to (full health HVC wise) or is this more often used as a last resort (as I seem to gleen) after the Suits have had their chance but left you less than satified with their end result.
(If they would only get their collective knowledgeable heads together for all our benefits.)
Theewoodman
I don't see where anybody referred to treatment as a magic pill. I question some of the statistics you quote. But I would never try to keep you out of the discussion. I think you should go ahead and state your opinions, even if I think your posts are not helpful, even when I think you are wrong. Even if I think a person is destructive, opinionated or closed minded, I think there is room here for everyones views. I'm not threatened by someone disagreeing with me. Who is to say who cares and who doesn't care. Even if I don't find all the discussion helpful I bet there is someone out there who does.
Everyone should take part in the discussion. Who is to say what is worthwhile? Its so subjective.
Everyone should take part in the discussion. Who is to say what is worthwhile? Its so subjective.
Of course everyone should take part in a discussion ... if they have something worthwhile supportive & focused on the subject to share ... a matter of interpretation of what is worthwhile or focused ....
The reality is this ... for G-1-4 ... apx. 50% on SOC Tx achieve SVR ... What about the other 50% ?? ... there is added hope with the new drugs , however , as far as the clinical trials show .... for G2-3 the new meds will not help ....
Those drugs will still leave apx. 40% of G1 Tx experienced patients unable to achieve SVR , and carry a big risk for those folks ... after Tx of carrying a mutated virus ...
They are not a Magic Pill ... as some here contend .. I do wish they were ....
When the posts of some are Always Negative and many times Insulting to those who have tried SOC and Cannot clear the virus .... or to those choosing to wait for further developments in Tx options .... looking for liver support information .....
It disturbs my sense of humanity & compassion ..
By the way , I was surprised to receive 3 very nice PM's in the last few days from folks who are in that very unfortunate position ... Thanking me for trying to help support their unique position ....
And I know as a fact that there are many more MH members who are put off by these Always Negative , Ill worded, non supportive members .....
Not 1 or 2 members here , but many complain using PM's ....
You would not know that ....... I will not share those as it would not be respectful to those who wrote them or to this site ... believe it or don't ... up to you ..
I hope this helps you to understand why I think posters that are , non supportive, not focused on the subject , and ,many who's data bases even on the subject of SOC Tx are out dated ...
Only bring more stress and add aggression on the very worthwhile quest for information from the unfortunate 50% G1&4 , 20-30 % G2&3 HCV infected who do not respond to SOC .. or someone who just wants to wait for future Tx options and is trying to find a way to Help support their liver until that time .............
Those folks , in my opinion , should keep their destructive , out dated and very opinionated closed minded comments to themselves ..... unfortunately i think that would be as hard for them as clearing HCV ..
Let the other members here who do care, try to Help those who need it .....
Since you asked .....
To:all
This is a much more recent article....
Oxymatrine is a substance found in sophora roots. In a comparison of oxymatrine versus vitamins in one study, nearly half of 43 patients had reduced their viral load to non-detectable levels, compared to only one patient taking vitamins, researchers at the University of Shanghai in China reported.17
However, while liver enzyme levels were higher in the treatment group after two months of treatment, they were generally the same between both groups after 3 months, the researchers reported.
In the end, Coon and Frist "identified several promising complementary therapies", but definitive conclusions couldn't be drawn because of questionable designs of the studies they had researched.
"More research is warranted to establish the role of these and other therapies in the treatment of hepatitis C," they wrote.
View Older Articles Back to Top www.natap.org
This is a much more recent article....
Oxymatrine is a substance found in sophora roots. In a comparison of oxymatrine versus vitamins in one study, nearly half of 43 patients had reduced their viral load to non-detectable levels, compared to only one patient taking vitamins, researchers at the University of Shanghai in China reported.17
However, while liver enzyme levels were higher in the treatment group after two months of treatment, they were generally the same between both groups after 3 months, the researchers reported.
In the end, Coon and Frist "identified several promising complementary therapies", but definitive conclusions couldn't be drawn because of questionable designs of the studies they had researched.
"More research is warranted to establish the role of these and other therapies in the treatment of hepatitis C," they wrote.
View Older Articles Back to Top www.natap.org
freenikita, perhaps some of the information in this article is what you have encountered.
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/hepcstrat.htm
If you can get all the way through this article - long but lots of information and a good read - I found that it's written in a very balanced way and definitely food for thought. There are a number of studies cited here with their results and finally concluding in the hope that further clinical trials will eventually be conducted to provide the necessary proof to establish an accurate level of efficacy. The article is older (1998) however I found it balanced, comprehensive, interesting and cites a number of references.
Examples of statements:
"MONITORING TREATMENT OUTCOMES
The concept of cure in a case of an infectious disease, like hepatitis C, includes the complete elimination of the virus from the body, not just limitation of its action (remission). For this concept to be applied, one requires the modern knowledge of, and testing for, viral particles, something that has become common place only during the past few years. The PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test for hepatitis C viral RNA is, therefore, the current standard for measuring the status of the disease, and the determination method of a true cure. The test measures the "viral load," or the quantity of virus in the bloodstream. In someone who is cured, the viral load should be undetectable (technically, one cannot measure tiny amounts of virus, so one can only say below the limit of detection) and then continue to remain undetectable in the absence of any virus suppressing therapies for several years. At this time, it is not known whether hepatitis C can be cured according to this strict standard, partly because there hasn't been enough time (since testing was developed) to determine whether any treatment has a long-term successful result."
"CHINESE MEDICAL ANALYSIS OF HEPATITIS C
Physicians in China were alerted to hepatitis C mainly through the international medical literature. Due to the lesser availability of funds for testing compared to the situation for American and European doctors, Chinese physicians primarily investigate hepatitis C and its treatment in patients who are notably symptomatic for the disease and are seeking relief of symptoms. By contrast, many tens of thousands of Americans with asymptomatic disease may seek treatment simply because the virus showed up after routine examination indicated mildly elevated liver enzymes. Because Chinese doctors mainly deal with symptomatic patients and because testing of these patients is also limited, the analysis of symptoms and the alleviation of symptoms are a primary concern. For traditional doctors, the fact that the virus now involved is "C" rather than "B" has little significance in relation to treatment. Rather, the important factors are the symptom manifestation and the fact, known from modern science, that a virus is involved."
"REPORTS OF EFFECTIVE THERAPY FOR HEPATITIS C
The medical reporting of treatments for hepatitis C in China has a number of flaws. Sometimes, the therapies (the herbal formulas) are not specified or only partially specified. Other times, the outcomes of treatment are unclear. Therefore, one should interpret the reports with some care."
"Oxymatrine was selected for study because it had previously been shown to inhibit viruses (including hepatitis B), enhance cellular immune functions, and reduce liver fibrosis. Sophora subprostrata has been an ingredient in many hepatitis B formulas (given orally in decoction form). Sophora-root-extract injection has been used experimentally and clinically for a variety of disorders at least since 1976. Usual dosages are 200-400 mg per day, though up to 800 mg is given by injection in two divided doses. The tablet of sophora extract has also been administered; an example of the dosage used is 1.5 grams each time (presumably about 20% alkaloids, thus 450 mg), three times daily.
Oxymatrine injections are not an option for treatment outside China, as this would require medical application of an unapproved drug. However, oxymatrine is available for oral administration. The Institute for Traditional Medicine has begun clinical use of oral oxymatrine in tablet form (sophora root extract, 20% oxymatrine, 2% matrine, 1 gram per tablet; three tablets per day for 600 mg oral oxymatrine) as an herbal supplement, not a drug therapy."
"SUMMARY OF CHINESE WORK
It has been said that Chinese medical journals only publish positive results. In the case of hepatitis C treatments, that appears to be the case thus far. However, it is clear that the positive results claimed are within the realm of possibility: viral inhibition measured by PCR tests shows results that are comparable to Western medical treatment, and tests showing antibody conversion or liver enzyme normalization are consistent with reports for hepatitis B that have been emerging from the Orient (mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan) for several years."
"Until more clinical work with hepatitis C and Chinese herbs is carried out in the United States, it may be difficult to convince medical practitioners and patients to try this method. Because the herbs are non-toxic, some patients may wish to utilize this therapy in place of, or in addition to, treatment by interferon. It is reasonable to begin collecting information from such patients to provide case histories in an effort to eventually develop a well-designed clinical trial."
Trish
http://www.itmonline.org/arts/hepcstrat.htm
If you can get all the way through this article - long but lots of information and a good read - I found that it's written in a very balanced way and definitely food for thought. There are a number of studies cited here with their results and finally concluding in the hope that further clinical trials will eventually be conducted to provide the necessary proof to establish an accurate level of efficacy. The article is older (1998) however I found it balanced, comprehensive, interesting and cites a number of references.
Examples of statements:
"MONITORING TREATMENT OUTCOMES
The concept of cure in a case of an infectious disease, like hepatitis C, includes the complete elimination of the virus from the body, not just limitation of its action (remission). For this concept to be applied, one requires the modern knowledge of, and testing for, viral particles, something that has become common place only during the past few years. The PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test for hepatitis C viral RNA is, therefore, the current standard for measuring the status of the disease, and the determination method of a true cure. The test measures the "viral load," or the quantity of virus in the bloodstream. In someone who is cured, the viral load should be undetectable (technically, one cannot measure tiny amounts of virus, so one can only say below the limit of detection) and then continue to remain undetectable in the absence of any virus suppressing therapies for several years. At this time, it is not known whether hepatitis C can be cured according to this strict standard, partly because there hasn't been enough time (since testing was developed) to determine whether any treatment has a long-term successful result."
"CHINESE MEDICAL ANALYSIS OF HEPATITIS C
Physicians in China were alerted to hepatitis C mainly through the international medical literature. Due to the lesser availability of funds for testing compared to the situation for American and European doctors, Chinese physicians primarily investigate hepatitis C and its treatment in patients who are notably symptomatic for the disease and are seeking relief of symptoms. By contrast, many tens of thousands of Americans with asymptomatic disease may seek treatment simply because the virus showed up after routine examination indicated mildly elevated liver enzymes. Because Chinese doctors mainly deal with symptomatic patients and because testing of these patients is also limited, the analysis of symptoms and the alleviation of symptoms are a primary concern. For traditional doctors, the fact that the virus now involved is "C" rather than "B" has little significance in relation to treatment. Rather, the important factors are the symptom manifestation and the fact, known from modern science, that a virus is involved."
"REPORTS OF EFFECTIVE THERAPY FOR HEPATITIS C
The medical reporting of treatments for hepatitis C in China has a number of flaws. Sometimes, the therapies (the herbal formulas) are not specified or only partially specified. Other times, the outcomes of treatment are unclear. Therefore, one should interpret the reports with some care."
"Oxymatrine was selected for study because it had previously been shown to inhibit viruses (including hepatitis B), enhance cellular immune functions, and reduce liver fibrosis. Sophora subprostrata has been an ingredient in many hepatitis B formulas (given orally in decoction form). Sophora-root-extract injection has been used experimentally and clinically for a variety of disorders at least since 1976. Usual dosages are 200-400 mg per day, though up to 800 mg is given by injection in two divided doses. The tablet of sophora extract has also been administered; an example of the dosage used is 1.5 grams each time (presumably about 20% alkaloids, thus 450 mg), three times daily.
Oxymatrine injections are not an option for treatment outside China, as this would require medical application of an unapproved drug. However, oxymatrine is available for oral administration. The Institute for Traditional Medicine has begun clinical use of oral oxymatrine in tablet form (sophora root extract, 20% oxymatrine, 2% matrine, 1 gram per tablet; three tablets per day for 600 mg oral oxymatrine) as an herbal supplement, not a drug therapy."
"SUMMARY OF CHINESE WORK
It has been said that Chinese medical journals only publish positive results. In the case of hepatitis C treatments, that appears to be the case thus far. However, it is clear that the positive results claimed are within the realm of possibility: viral inhibition measured by PCR tests shows results that are comparable to Western medical treatment, and tests showing antibody conversion or liver enzyme normalization are consistent with reports for hepatitis B that have been emerging from the Orient (mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan) for several years."
"Until more clinical work with hepatitis C and Chinese herbs is carried out in the United States, it may be difficult to convince medical practitioners and patients to try this method. Because the herbs are non-toxic, some patients may wish to utilize this therapy in place of, or in addition to, treatment by interferon. It is reasonable to begin collecting information from such patients to provide case histories in an effort to eventually develop a well-designed clinical trial."
Trish
Here's another study to back up the first one.
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v99/n5/full/ajg2004164a.html
http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v99/n5/full/ajg2004164a.html
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Many people recover from treatment pretty well, some come out with what I call "souvenirs" that are permanent but manageable. For a certain segment of people, treatment has either been extremely difficult and harmful with more distressing outcomes OR it has simply failed. One fellow in my support group has tried treatment twice and it's failed and each time, he's come away from it with permanent health conditions. For him, treating a third time is a daunting proposition. It frankly pi$$es me off to no end that this is ignored by those who so fervently push treatment - these people need to be exploring alternatives to keep the impacts of existing Hep C under control. For that matter....it's also a matter of personal choice if someone reads about the side effects of interferon and ribavirin and decide that they want to avoid treatment until better options come along and see if they can live with their Hep C instead. That is THEIR choice, as long as it's an educated one. Their body, their life. They have NOT automatically sentenced themselves to death in that case if they are carefully watching and monitoring their health and are making use of alternatives to keep their fibrosis and their viral load in check. People say there is no usefulness to keeping viral load in check but that's not entirely known - what IS known is that treating with a lower viral load potentially offers more chance of success so if one is keeping options open and trying to create optimal conditions IF they do end up having to go into treatment. I would be looking to keep viral load down as a " can't hurt, might help" approach as there are new things being learned all the time about Hep C.
There is nothing CLINICALLY proven to cure Hep C other than the known drug therapy we have today. That is a fact. That does not mean that there are not other things out there that improve conditions for persons with Hep C - and potentially even improve them to the point where life expectancy and the quality of life and health prognosis is greatly enhanced for persons with Hep C. Perhaps if we explored these options more fully, it may be that CURE is not the only acceptable goal that persons with Hep C can entertain - nor should be allowed to entertain, when the current drugs are as difficult as they are with side effects that range from mild to debilitating from person to person and when the current rate of success with SOC drugs is still just under 50%. New and promising drugs on their way but still not a 100% panacea and accessibility to these drugs along with the new resistance issues to be addressed remain to unfold.
I have thyroid issues as one of my "souvenirs". I take daily medication. Easily manageable and controllable. Perhaps...just perhaps...we might find something that keeps Hep C in check enough to increase life expectancy and inhibit damage to the point where the number of liver transplants from Hep C is greatly decreased as well. That isn't going to happen if the only option people ever entertain or investigate is the current pharmaceutical treatment.
Surviving Hep C is the goal....cure is certainly a great way to achieve that. For some, that isn't going to happen and it would be nice if people can stop beating the treatment drum long enough to give a voice to those who need to discuss other options....and those who simply WANT to along the way to determining what is best for themselves in their own situation. If treatment ends up being the best option for a person, that will become clear to them and I'd rather have the freedom to explore all my options so that I can feel some comfort with the option I've settled on after all that, knowing why what I've chosen is best for ME.