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206807 tn?1331936184

To Canadian and Former Canadian members


I don’t want this to turn into a political debate. HCV Is a Health Issue that goes hand in hand with Health Care. There would be no logical reason for this thread to be deleted unless it is abused.
I would just like to hear from our Canadian members a truthful opinion about their Health Care System. Please include both Pros and Cons. I would also like to know the truth about how long it takes to see a Dr., get test/results, approval for treatment, time waiting in the lobby for emergency room visits, etc.
I don’t care to hear any conspiracy theories, only reality.
Since I keep hearing about a Health Care System compared to Canada’s, I would love to hear “from the Horses Mouth” about what we may be getting into.
So far we hear about how Great it is going to be from the one’s that are pushing for Reform and Horror Stories from the one’s against it. I would appreciate if only Canadian or former Canadian members respond. If other members use this thread for an opportunity to vent, the chances are, it will be deleted. Thank you for you honesty in advance.

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338734 tn?1377160168
I knew I was stirring the pot with my comment, but I wasn't being facetious (I'll trust your spelling, because I don't know!) and I was certainly not implying that Canadians are stupid. Au contraire! I just wanted to get your thoughts on the subject as a respected intellect and as a real Canadian.

This is a very difficult issue dealing with our humane desires and our practical limitations. RGlass is correct about the lack of control of our borders. I wonder what would happen with govt funded healthcare system and its limitations. In Canada you say that people who are in the country illegally are deported. In the US, it is official policy not to even try to do this other than when illegals are apprehended in serious criminal activity. There is an official "don't ask, don't tell" policy for the most part concerning residency status.

I have noticed that many countries with active government support of helathcare, etc. also have strictly enforced immigration policies, as seems sensible. Just try to live in Switzerland, or most any european country, without documentaton. I get the feeling it just doesn't happen.

It seems that people in the US want it both ways. They want the government to be the nanny providing for all needs, but they don't want the sensible discipline that needs to come with that.

I just hope the politicians quit playing this issue as a political football and get serious about what is best for the US.
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Avatar universal
Ladybug...not so amazing.  I'm pretty opinionated and when someone says "what do you think about .... " my response is alot like "how much time do you have?" :)  I'd like to hear about other systems also - don't we have some members from Britain and isn't Marcia from a publicly-funded system in Denmark and Zazza / Comeagain in Sweden?

R Glass - no rejoicing in the fact that I'm a better speller than you, it is what it is. ;->  A story - my grandmother I grew up with thought she'd give me a comeuppance and for some bewildering reason one evening, decided to have a spelling bee pitting my aunt and me against each other, my aunt being 4 years older than me.  I clearly won, bringing the spelling bee to an abrupt end.  Suppose it didn't occur to my grandmother that me hiding out in the basement reading books all the time to avoid getting whacked around would leave me with a helluvalot of words swimming around in my head....anyway....thanks for the link to your Plan.  I haven't explored it too far just yet however it's a tab in my browser just waiting for me to find a window of time for it.

willing:  "It would seem that even with Canada's entirely public system there remain  opportunities for supplementing the gov. -provided baseline with insurance."   I'm not sure I'd call it opportunities here - no opportunity whatsoever until they figure out how to do it without compromising the holy grail of equal access for all.  I support that premise to a great degree - sure wish all the money that's been poured into studying a solution would actually come up with one.



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206807 tn?1331936184
I would love to hear from them to.
The only reasons  that I specifically asked for Canadian’s is because Canada is what “The Plan” has been mostly compared to and I was trying to keep the heated political debate down to a minimum .
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146021 tn?1237204887
You are amazing, thanks for all  the time and detail you've given this thread. Thanks to everyone for not turning it into a heated name-calling debate that gets deleted.

Rglass: Have you thought about healthcare in Europe and Japan compared to our system? I know that Canada is our only neighbor to compare too, obviously, but I'd love to hear from some one other than Canada who is in a not-for-profit healthcare system.

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Avatar universal
iatw: thanks for the link. Scott Atlas makes valid, well-documented points (and what is the UK not/doing to achieve a frightening  604 % higher prostrate cancer mortality rate !?).

However, the flip side to those rosy stats about the current state of US health care is evident in the  recent stories about physician charity groups tending to the uninsured in LA and elsewhere eg
http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/ci_13038443

I'm personally pretty far out on the left edge of the spectrum but commentary like Atlas' seems very informative/helpful (here's another recent piece he wrote against the public option:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/19/public-option-health-insurance-opinions-contributors-health-care.html
)
These decisions involve difficult tradeoffs without obvious solutions. Though I don't agree with Atlas he seems to be genuinely interested in a solution, unlike the Palin/McCaughey "the Dems are out to get your granny" comedy routine. What I'm not even close to understanding is (1) the  the incredibly deeply rooted suspicion of gov. (isn't gov. no more or less than the  us in US) and (2) the trust in for-profit marketplace as a distributor of care.

trish: thanks for the additional information. It would seem that even with Canada's entirely public system there remain  opportunities for supplementing the gov. -provided baseline with insurance. All this has been on my mind lately as I recently had an experience not unlike Willy's above. I was driving my daughter cross-country; she has a few weeks between completing grad school and starting training as a vet. A couple of weeks ago she was badly bitten by a dog, probably valuable on-the-job training for her chosen field (HCV patients get pretty cranky but at least we don't bite). Though she explicitly told the Dr she was penicillin intolerant he prescribed a  strong amoxycillin-based antibiotic and a few hours later she was in the ER. Another Dr. prescribed a different antibiotic and all was well. However, while driving cross-country the symptoms returned, violently, leading to another ER visit in the middle of the night. Fortunately she figured out that with the packing confusion she had mistakenly taken  one of the amoxycillin antibiotics. These were promptly tossed and again she recovered. However the 2nd ER intervention occurred during the brief  window she is uninsured. Though we don't have the bill yet, I expect something between 1500/2000..another small caution of what happens when you slip through the gaps in our current insurance-based system.
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Avatar universal
Health care for everyone in the USA like in Canada will not make the big insurance compaies very happy,there make more cash on the 2 tier systems.
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206807 tn?1331936184
Trish, Good Luck. If you can find a legitimate copy of “The Plan” please let me know. As I see it, there is no “Plan” and they just want us to trust them.


http://www.ehow.com/how_5306796_copy-health-care-reform-bill.html

“A Senate version of the bill was passed out of the Health, Education, Labor, & Pension Committee in July, but as of mid-August, the bill has not been assigned a number or its text published. The Senate website's active legislation list currently links those searching for the health care reform bill to the House of Representatives ' HR 3200. This will be updated when the Senate information is available.”



“(And I'm not being facetious. :)”
I know you rejoice in the fact you are a better speller than me. Admit it.
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Avatar universal
Do i see that 4 letter word again..govt?...dont you all see its again about greed and money,there is enff cash to help every person on the blue chunk of rock floating in space,but its just a few hoarding all the mulla....greed is evils brother
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Avatar universal
Why wouldn't health care simply continue to be available to legal Americans only?  I don't see an issue with that.  Is something other than that on the table?  If you carded legal citizens for healthcare the way we do here, wouldn't that take care of it for the MOST part?

Do you have a link to what's being proposed for your system?  I'd be intrigued to read it.

(And I'm not being facetious. :)

I'd like to see you go slow too and be careful.  I can't for the life of me imagine rushing into something that's going to be as difficult to administer and as costly to support as a national healthcare plan with the size of your population, the number of States you have and the current state of your economy.  This is far too important to be a political feather in someone's cap.  Would be nice if partisan politics could be set aside and people work together on this but that would be WAY too optimistic, I suppose, eh?
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206807 tn?1331936184
“If you think we're that idiotic, give it a shot and see how far you get. We've decided, overall, that to be entitled to ANYTHING in Canada, you need to be here legally.”

I was being fecisous (I still can’t spell that damned word). The Illegal Immigrant situation is one of our main concerns when it comes to Health Care Reform. We basically have no borders and our government puts forth little to no effort to do anything about it. They put no money into our system but our government seems more than happy to look the other way as they drain it. People are getting fed up with it. Until it is made clear, Free Health Care is for Legal Americans only; I don’t think it is going to pass. There are several other issues with “the plan” that should get worked out before it is voted on but this is one of the big one’s. My take is, patch them up enough to them back across the border. Wife and kids here, no problem, pack them up to. Our country is broke and we can no longer afford to try to take care of everybody else.
I see a lot of Pros & Cons with Canada’s system. I don’t understand why we have to jump into this so quickly. Many others and I would like a complete plan. We have a very corrupt and sometimes incompetent government. I don’t think we are asking for much. Slow down, put together a plan that the Pros and Cons have been worked through, and we will probably go for it. With the past history, only a fool would just trust them.
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Avatar universal
"But how does Canada's system handle people from other countries while they are in Canada? The treatment of illegal residents in the U.S. seems to be a relevant and controversial issue."

Well, you're mentioning two things in one sentence here. People visiting from other countries?  I don't know.  I've had no exposure to that.  I can imagine there must be some sort of provision for that but I can imagine it has to be restricted or we'd be flooded with people visiting relatives and then going for healthcare services.  We're a humane country but we're not stupid.  So I don't know where that sits, Brent.  Because we're humane doesn't mean we don't approach this practically as well.

As for illegal immigrants, if it's known they're illegal they get shipped out. If we don't know and we think they're citizens or legally here, they get the same care as anyone else who's legally here so I don't understand your question.  The controversial issue with regards to illegal immigrants in this country is that our controls are not strict enough to prevent illegal immigrants from getting in.  It has nothing to do with healthcare.  As I said, there's that whole carding system.  If you are an illegal immigrant and you have a healthcare card, you've gotten it through illegal means and you'll end up getting free healthcare until you get caught, not because our healthcare system allows it.


"I don't know if we should be idealistic about providing health care as a human right or if we need to be more practical. If we take the practical route, should we ration care, and if so based on what criteria?"

Care is rationed here so it seems we're taking some sort of practical approach to providing healthcare even though we've decided that it's something that should be extended to everyone who is in this country legally.  Just because we have decided that healthcare is to be extended to everyone legally here doesn't mean we're being idiots about it.  As I said to you, everyone has to have a healthcard, there are specific things that are covered and beyond that, if it's not considered a necessity, it's not covered.  So it's like the government is the one insurance company in this country.  There isn't anything about it that indicates that we just blindly hand out healthcare like candy.  

We've decided, in this country, what basic entitlements everyone should have.  For some people, that's precious little.  If you're not working, you're entitled to welfare if you have no other  means of income and yet, you can be denied welfare if you abuse the system.  Then the social network kicks in - the homeless shelters, the food distribution groups, etc.  We have homeless people like everyone else.  But healthcare - well, if you're legally here and you're homeless and you have your health card, you can be treated by a doctor here.  If some idiot like the guy I used to work with decides that kicking a homeless guy around and throwing pennies at him qualifies as entertainment, that homeless fellow is still entitled to see a doctor for his injuries and the same doctor as the rich guy's son who kicked him around. I'm really not sure how they'd work that out at the hospital if some homeless guy arrived there with no ID and injured.  I'm sure we have some kind of provision for that rather than simply allowing someone to die.  I just don't know what it is.  I don't have all the answers to that. I think the police here make some effort to get to know the regulars and get some sense of who they are. But I really don't know how that works.  Now I'll have to find a nurse or something and figure that out or ask the next time I end up in emerg or at my family doctor's office.  

The current big debate here and among the medical community as well is whether we allow private care into the system and in what ways.  The healthcare system has gone on the principle of equal access to all legal citizens and the question will be how to introduce private care and maintain that equal access.  There are those who think that's not possible, that it will immediately create a two-tiered system where those who can afford it will get better care.  Well, we already have that system as those who can afford it go outside the country and pay for it and maintaining the system as it is means to continue with the inefficiencies in the system that bring with it the long waiting times, etc.  If it can be demonstrated that private care can be introduced in such a way as to maintain the foundational philosophy of equal access to all, but it hasn't been done yet.  Under current debate though for sure.

"He does bring up a good point. If Health Care is a Human Right and Illegal Immigrants are human, the answer to our health care problem could be to flood Canada’s border."

If you think we're that idiotic, give it a shot and see how far you get. We've decided, overall, that to be entitled to ANYTHING in Canada, you need to be here legally.

If you think some people are not entitled to health care, you have a right to that opinion.  In my country, we've decided that everyone who is here legally has the right to equal access to healthcare.  If you want something different for your country, then you have the right to that opinion.  I have the right to mine.  

Good luck to your country with sorting this all out.

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206807 tn?1331936184
He does bring up a good point. If Health Care is a Human Right and Illegal Immigrants are human, the answer to our health care problem could be to flood Canada’s border.
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338734 tn?1377160168
But how does Canada's system handle people from other countries while they are in Canada? The treatment of illegal residents in the U.S. seems to be a relevant and controversial issue. If care is a human right, then do we restrict the definition of human to just our citizens? How do Canada and other countries handle this issue? If I am in Canada and I am in urgent need of medical care, would I receive it?

I don't know if we should be idealistic about providing health care as a human right or if we need to be more practical. If we take the practical route, should we ration care, and if so based on what criteria?

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Avatar universal
" The link you provided indicated fees for say private hospital rooms or botox injections are standard - but apparently that's not the case for MRIs or patient-ordered PCRs. Is there a move towards widening or narrowing the fee-based part of the system? "

Think about it - botox and private hospital rooms are perks.  No government funded coverage for that, nor for non-essential surgery.  Facelifts and cosmetic surgery are not covered, for example. It has to be essential.  

You can't get an MRI without a doc's order.  You can't get a private MRI to speed things up.  You also can't get a patient-ordered PCR that the healthcare system doesn't cover or that would have been easy for me.  I could be wrong on that, however.  The Toronto hospital I went to when I was getting ready to enter regular SOC treatment indicated that their hands were tied on the types and number of tests they could order and that the ones at 4, 8, 12 and 24 were the best they could do and they were quals except for the 12 and perhaps the 24.  My family doc gave me a script for a PCR once a month though and I was about to test that theory.  I was talking to a fellow hepper on the weekend and he got his first PCR at 12 weeks.  He indicated that was standard in the treatment centre he goes to.  And this is a Geno 2 who has had a liver transplant.  Now that upsets me, particularly because he's being treated out of a hospital that does liver transplants.  I have to tell you, that would not have happened in the Toronto hospital I went to.  But I think I'm getting offtrack here (I have plans to do something about all this and I'm putting my steps in place - again, another topic.)

Anyway, my usual long answer to your short question is no, they aren't planning on adding essential services to the list of things we can pay for.  Some things we pay for aren't so non-essential such as an optometrist visit.  I pay $89 for that and not all of our work insurance plans cover that.  Mine happens to, my previous one didn't.  For the life of me, I don't understand why that's not covered.  You can't get glasses without it.  But it's not.  So maybe there's a move more in the other direction, to start being more discriminating about what is considered essential.  And that I see more of, because there are things that I think should be covered, such as treatment drugs for Geno 1's (within certain parameters of course) and they're not.  So again, I would say more of a move to cover less than to cover more.  

An interesting situation - an organization representing persons with autism lobbied the government hard for coverage for a particular kind of treatment or extra services for children with autism.  They were unsuccessful.  They would have to hope that their insurance saw that differently.  That's not necessarily a bad thing.  Just that if you want something covered by the government plan that's not, you will have alot of work on your hands.    So it becomes a big question on private care being against the law and how you fit private care into a public health care system.  A question I hope your country has answered better than we have.

Trish
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Avatar universal
Willing - I think the article you quote on if Canada's healthcare system needs fixing is reasonably accurate but a little rosy and Can-Do, the one you quote comes across as more dire than it is.  Both quote doctors as their resources.

The system is certainly in need of fixing but we would also never give it up.  There have been mistakes along the way that need to be corrected and it's an ongoing source of frustration for ME to see millions of dollars poured into trying to figure out how to fix the things that are broke and see very little change.  Perhaps that's the downside of a government-run healthcare system.  Change happens slowly and inefficiently.  Government decisions were made here that created this situation and I keep waiting for someone with guts and vision to correct the situation and it just ain't happening yet.

In the meantime, when I went to Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto to see my thyroid specialist, I had a conversation with the nurse who took my blood.  I had been reading the paper and didn't hear her call me, so she joked and asked me if there was anything interesting and coincidentally, I'd been reading an article about Obamacare.  (If that is a derogatory term, my apologies - it's just easier to say and something I read - if it's derogatory, please let me know and I'll stop using it)  So I mentioned that to her and we got in to a discussion.  She has relatives down in the U.S. and she talked about what trouble they have compared to us and we both agreed that while our system needs fixing, we'd both take this any day.  Witness the waiting room just in the blood clinic in that hospital.  Didn't matter who those people were or what walk of life.  We were all equal and none of us saw a bill.  We all had health issues and we were all being treated and none of us had to worry about how we were going to make that happen.

Your current healthcare discussion is big news in my papers here.
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Avatar universal
I have never been subjected to a drug test in all of my 48 years.  Not on any job.  I was on welfare top-up for a short period of time after my marriage ended and the child support quit coming in suddenly - feel compelled to say I replaced that with a couple of jobs from there forward and never went back even though I could have - and was never, I repeat, ever in my life subjected to drug testing.  In fact, I'm thinking that would be incredibly controversial here.  

They do draw the line here.  There are regulations around what procedures are covered, we have a doctor shortage and private health care is not allowed.  

Drawing the line at a drug addict not allowed to get healthcare?  Or an alcoholic?  While those people are contributing to the costs, where do you draw the line?  Obesity?  People who don't exercise enough?  People who exercise too much?  Ask people to undergo a diet test before you allow them access to healthcare?  

Think for a minute about all the ways you might have contributed to your own healthcare needs.  Would you want to be denied healthcare based on that?  The government promotes healthy living and all that and society demands it but to deny healthcare is an extreme measure.  Some things you hold your nose and do.  To deny welfare to able-bodied people who could work, that's something else but denying healthcare.   That one is a hard one for me to swallow.  Big topic.
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Avatar universal
Link was to long..........

http://tinyurl.com/lhfkyp
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Avatar universal
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
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206807 tn?1331936184
“I am assuming that Canada has at least some illegal residents in the country. How does Canada deal with that?”

Great question.


“Again, one of the things I appreciate most about my system in my country is that healthcare is a basic human RIGHT here and equal access regardless of income.”

In The USA most all us Tax Payers have to submit to Drug Testing to keep our jobs. But it is discrimination for Welfare Recipients to be forced to submit to Drug Testing. Keep in mind; it is our Tax Dollars that pays for their Welfare.

In Canada, is everyone subject (Welfare and Free Healthcare) to Drug Testing? As I said before, I am all for helping the needy but many others and me are sick and tired of supporting Human Parasites and I have little compassion for them.

I agree that it should be a basic human right and equal access regardless of income. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

Thanks again for your time and input to this Thread, R. Glass
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338734 tn?1377160168
Yes, the link in my comments above is the direct link to the NCPA website archive:

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649

The NPR report was interesting. But I must conclude that Canada's system is a little more than just socialized insurance. The idea of making one large pool to absorb individual risk is a good one in my opinion.

Brent
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Avatar universal
iatw: thanks for the link, but I couldn't find the March 24,09 paper you referenced on their site. Is there a direct link?

all: for those interested in comparisons with the Canadian system, here's a couple of recent npr news stories:

"Report: U.S. Health Care Costs Double Canada's"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1404971

and

"Does Canada's Health Care System Need Fixing?"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111721651
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Avatar universal
"I extrapolate from that comment, that a citizen from another country would not be eligible for benefits in a province of Canada. I am assuming that Canada has at least some illegal residents in the country. How does Canada deal with that?"

Everybody has a health card with your own unique health card # on it.  You have to show it every time you go somewhere for service unless they have your # on file because you've become a regular, such as at my family physician's office.  They have a sign up that says you have to show your health card every time you come but they never ask me for it because they know me.  

When I went to see my endocrinologist this past week for example, he sent me for a blood test and his office already had my healthcard # on file so they were able to simply pull it from their computer and put it on the form which I then take to the lab and they have my healthcard #.  If I was fresh, I'd have to show it.  I don't actually know what happens if you don't have a healthcard.  You really do have to show it everywhere or provide the # and they have ways of checking the number to see if it matches to you.  

If you were an illegal immigrant, maybe you might not be picked up by the system and you might be able to get a healthcard under false pretenses.  If you don't have one at all, I'm thinking that's a real problem here but I don't know how that works.  I just know it's a big deal if I don't have my healthcard.  

On top of that, the hospitals I go to, the bigger ones, they also have their own carding system and you have to show THEIR card when you go there.  That means not only do you have a healthcard on file with them but YOU are on file with them and they have all your information.  

It's not like you can just walk in off the street any old time and just present yourself and get treated.  

Does that answer your question at all?  
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338734 tn?1377160168
I sincerely hope this is not an abuse of this thread. I don't want to see a debate or any deletions, either.
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338734 tn?1377160168
We kind of accept it as axiomatic that the U.S. health care is "broken" and compares poorly to European and Candian care systems. I was surprised to see the data that appeared on the website for the National Center for Policy Analysis on March 24, 2009.

Here is the info/link for what it is worth.

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649
or  http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html
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