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Interesting info on lyme and painkillers
I was talking to my doc the other day about pain and mentioned that I try to take painkillers only when desperate, as I feel my liver is already bombarded with abx and other drugs and at least that is one thing I can try to limit.
He said no no no, you should always take anti-inflamamtories when you feel pain. The reason is that, getting the imflammation under control helps the tissue to heal faster and allows the immune system to be far effective, which means you will heal much faster if you use anti inflammatories (NSAIDS)
I took his advice, used painkillers for three days and lo and behold, I have a drastic improvement in my arthritic knees. (which had been bothering me for months).
So I throw this advice out there to anyone else who is bravely trying to restrict painkiller use . It's not actually the best thing to do.
He said no no no, you should always take anti-inflamamtories when you feel pain. The reason is that, getting the imflammation under control helps the tissue to heal faster and allows the immune system to be far effective, which means you will heal much faster if you use anti inflammatories (NSAIDS)
I took his advice, used painkillers for three days and lo and behold, I have a drastic improvement in my arthritic knees. (which had been bothering me for months).
So I throw this advice out there to anyone else who is bravely trying to restrict painkiller use . It's not actually the best thing to do.
"About opiates: the docs aren't afraid of us getting hooked as much as they are about getting their licenses pulled."
Oh, don't get me started. (oops, you already did!) I have so much to say about that------ but for now I'll just slowly simmer!
Oh, don't get me started. (oops, you already did!) I have so much to say about that------ but for now I'll just slowly simmer!
Vicodin contains acetaminophen.
Acetaminophen= Tylenol ----- paracetamol is the name in Europe.
Oddly enough (except for the obvious concern about addiction) the Black Box warning on Vicodin's package insert is:
"IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION
BOXED WARNING
Hepatotoxicity: Acetaminophen has been associated with cases of acute liver failure, at times resulting in liver transplant and death. Most of the cases of liver injury are associated with the use of acepaminophen at doses that exceed 4000 mg. per day and often involve more than one acetaminophen-containing product."
But someone taking Vicodin carefully and legally and just for pain won't get liver problems unless they combine it with other product containing acet. I doubt that the person abusing Vicodin goes in much for reading ingredient labels or package inserts. :(
Acetaminophen= Tylenol ----- paracetamol is the name in Europe.
Oddly enough (except for the obvious concern about addiction) the Black Box warning on Vicodin's package insert is:
"IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION
BOXED WARNING
Hepatotoxicity: Acetaminophen has been associated with cases of acute liver failure, at times resulting in liver transplant and death. Most of the cases of liver injury are associated with the use of acepaminophen at doses that exceed 4000 mg. per day and often involve more than one acetaminophen-containing product."
But someone taking Vicodin carefully and legally and just for pain won't get liver problems unless they combine it with other product containing acet. I doubt that the person abusing Vicodin goes in much for reading ingredient labels or package inserts. :(
My new motto: 'I don't need no stinkin' PDR -- I got Rico on speed dial" :)
Clearly Lyme's not affecting your brain! I've been thinking that for quite a while....
I don't take anything but Tylenol, and very little of that and not very often. Ugh. You're right, their marketing campaign was very effective.
Clearly Lyme's not affecting your brain! I've been thinking that for quite a while....
I don't take anything but Tylenol, and very little of that and not very often. Ugh. You're right, their marketing campaign was very effective.
Advil is Ibuprofin and Aleve is Naproxen.
I believe paracetamol is acetominophen, which is Tylenol here. I rarely take it anymore either because it's so hard on the liver. Hundreds of people here in the US unknowingly destroy their livers (or their child's liver) with it because they believe the ads about how "safe" it is. Well, it's safe in the given doses, but toxic in higher doses or with alcohol.
I believe paracetamol is acetominophen, which is Tylenol here. I rarely take it anymore either because it's so hard on the liver. Hundreds of people here in the US unknowingly destroy their livers (or their child's liver) with it because they believe the ads about how "safe" it is. Well, it's safe in the given doses, but toxic in higher doses or with alcohol.
I'm not sure what's in advil or aleve as we don't have those in Europe.
The drug my doc discourages is paracetamol as it is very harmful to the liver.
The one he told me would be best was novalgina, (metamizole) which he said is gentle on the stomach and liver.
Unfortunately I got stomach ache from it!!!! what irony! So I guess I have some kind of intolerance, and I resorted to doctor's second choice, which is ibuprofen.
BTW to clarify, yes it's for short term use and yes, my knees are arthritic because of the lyme - though it could be bartonella in there instead/as well.
I think what you said is right jackie - it's always a play off. Since I got results in 3 days I was happy and felt I had made the right choice.
The drug my doc discourages is paracetamol as it is very harmful to the liver.
The one he told me would be best was novalgina, (metamizole) which he said is gentle on the stomach and liver.
Unfortunately I got stomach ache from it!!!! what irony! So I guess I have some kind of intolerance, and I resorted to doctor's second choice, which is ibuprofen.
BTW to clarify, yes it's for short term use and yes, my knees are arthritic because of the lyme - though it could be bartonella in there instead/as well.
I think what you said is right jackie - it's always a play off. Since I got results in 3 days I was happy and felt I had made the right choice.
I stick with Tylenol ... ibuprofen gave me hives the first time I tried it, so never again. A stupid doc once asked me if the hives recurred the next time I took ibuprofen, and I explained in one-syllable words why that might have been not a good thing to do. Duh.
About opiates: the docs aren't afraid of us getting hooked as much as they are about getting their licenses pulled. I used to get disabling menstrual cramps ... nearly as bad as labor. And I have a high pain threshold and tolerance. So my gyn had for years and years prescribed tylenol w codeine, of which I took very small amounts for a couple of days each month with very good effect, since I am so sensitive to all meds.
Then at one regular check up, the doc told me (and apologized) that I would have to find another doc to prescribe the codeine, because the DEA was making the bureaucratic hoops and record keeping just to *prescribe* narcotics (i.e., not to keep it on premises) so awful that she decided it was too big an administrative burden.
Nice job, Feds. Regulate us into suffering.
About opiates: the docs aren't afraid of us getting hooked as much as they are about getting their licenses pulled. I used to get disabling menstrual cramps ... nearly as bad as labor. And I have a high pain threshold and tolerance. So my gyn had for years and years prescribed tylenol w codeine, of which I took very small amounts for a couple of days each month with very good effect, since I am so sensitive to all meds.
Then at one regular check up, the doc told me (and apologized) that I would have to find another doc to prescribe the codeine, because the DEA was making the bureaucratic hoops and record keeping just to *prescribe* narcotics (i.e., not to keep it on premises) so awful that she decided it was too big an administrative burden.
Nice job, Feds. Regulate us into suffering.
Excellent info.
Youvegot... I had a similar experience. I shunned pain meds as I thought they'd add a greater burden on my body than they would relieve. But there were times I was in a lot of pain, and my husband would hand me an Advil and tell me to take it. While I didn't take it often, it nearly always helped. I found that when I was in less pain, I wasn't so tense and stressed.
I hae taken it a lot more often in the last 6 months for the headaches I'm having while treating Babesia. I probably take it 2-3 times a week. It almost always helps, although it doesn't eliminate them.
I don't remember why, but my GP strongly suggested Advil over Aleve. I believe some LLMDs have really discouraged the use of opiates. My LLMD won't prescribe them, in part to avoid addiction. Early in my treatment I took Vicodin about 3 or 4 times when I was desperately hurting in my liver or my ribs. I havent' used it in over a year, though.
Youvegot... I had a similar experience. I shunned pain meds as I thought they'd add a greater burden on my body than they would relieve. But there were times I was in a lot of pain, and my husband would hand me an Advil and tell me to take it. While I didn't take it often, it nearly always helped. I found that when I was in less pain, I wasn't so tense and stressed.
I hae taken it a lot more often in the last 6 months for the headaches I'm having while treating Babesia. I probably take it 2-3 times a week. It almost always helps, although it doesn't eliminate them.
I don't remember why, but my GP strongly suggested Advil over Aleve. I believe some LLMDs have really discouraged the use of opiates. My LLMD won't prescribe them, in part to avoid addiction. Early in my treatment I took Vicodin about 3 or 4 times when I was desperately hurting in my liver or my ribs. I havent' used it in over a year, though.
@Jackie---- I just love it when you talk like that!!! LOL
Seriously----- 'trade-offs' seem to be the name of the game when it comes to medications.
Seriously----- 'trade-offs' seem to be the name of the game when it comes to medications.
It looks like there may be a tradeoff: suppression of the immune system at some level, balanced by symptom relief.
from the National Institutes of Health:
"Ibuprofen and other widely used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs inhibit antibody production in human cells"
Simona Bancos,1 Matthew P. Bernard,1 David J. Topham,2 and Richard P. Phipps1,*
Published in final edited form as: Cell Immunol. 2009; 258(1): 18–28.
Published online 2009 April 5. doi: 10.1016/j.cellimm.2009.03.007
"The widely used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) function mainly through inhibition of cyclooxygenases 1 and 2 (Cox-1 and Cox-2). Unlike Cox-1, Cox-2 is considered an inducible and pro-inflammatory enzyme. We previously reported that Cox-2 is upregulated in activated human B lymphocytes and using Cox-2 selective inhibitors that Cox-2 is required for optimal antibody synthesis. It is not known whether commonly used non-prescription and non-Cox-2 selective drugs also influence antibody synthesis.
"Herein, we tested a variety of Cox-1/Cox-2 non-selective NSAIDs, namely ibuprofen, tylenol, aspirin and naproxen and report that they blunt IgM and IgG synthesis in stimulated human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC). Ibuprofen had its most profound effects in inhibiting human PBMCs and purified B lymphocyte IgM and IgG synthesis when administered in the first few days after activation. As shown by viability assays, ibuprofen did not kill B cells.
===> "The implications of this research are that the use of widely available NSAIDs after infection or vaccination may lower host defense. This may be especially true for the elderly who respond poorly to vaccines and heavily use NSAIDs."
www. ncbi. nlm. nih. gov / pmc / articles / PMC2693360 /
from the National Institutes of Health:
"Ibuprofen and other widely used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs inhibit antibody production in human cells"
Simona Bancos,1 Matthew P. Bernard,1 David J. Topham,2 and Richard P. Phipps1,*
Published in final edited form as: Cell Immunol. 2009; 258(1): 18–28.
Published online 2009 April 5. doi: 10.1016/j.cellimm.2009.03.007
"The widely used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) function mainly through inhibition of cyclooxygenases 1 and 2 (Cox-1 and Cox-2). Unlike Cox-1, Cox-2 is considered an inducible and pro-inflammatory enzyme. We previously reported that Cox-2 is upregulated in activated human B lymphocytes and using Cox-2 selective inhibitors that Cox-2 is required for optimal antibody synthesis. It is not known whether commonly used non-prescription and non-Cox-2 selective drugs also influence antibody synthesis.
"Herein, we tested a variety of Cox-1/Cox-2 non-selective NSAIDs, namely ibuprofen, tylenol, aspirin and naproxen and report that they blunt IgM and IgG synthesis in stimulated human peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMC). Ibuprofen had its most profound effects in inhibiting human PBMCs and purified B lymphocyte IgM and IgG synthesis when administered in the first few days after activation. As shown by viability assays, ibuprofen did not kill B cells.
===> "The implications of this research are that the use of widely available NSAIDs after infection or vaccination may lower host defense. This may be especially true for the elderly who respond poorly to vaccines and heavily use NSAIDs."
www. ncbi. nlm. nih. gov / pmc / articles / PMC2693360 /
I hope that your doctor told you it's for 'short term use' only. And just what is 'short term'? LOL Fuzzy wording. I know that there are people who have been on them for MANY years and they're still living. (Not that I'm recommending them.)
But they do have a long term effect on the kidneys---- but then so do many drugs.
Wondering why your knees are arthritic? Because of Lyme? Will you need to stay on the NSAID 'forever'? Or until you have Lyme under control?
Pre-emptive use of pain killers is common before an operation. They get a loading dose in your body before you even get to the O.R.
My doc said once said that keeping an even amount of a pain med in the body is the best way to alleviate pain. IOW---- don't wait until the previous dose has worn off completely---- head it off at the pass.
But they do have a long term effect on the kidneys---- but then so do many drugs.
Wondering why your knees are arthritic? Because of Lyme? Will you need to stay on the NSAID 'forever'? Or until you have Lyme under control?
Pre-emptive use of pain killers is common before an operation. They get a loading dose in your body before you even get to the O.R.
My doc said once said that keeping an even amount of a pain med in the body is the best way to alleviate pain. IOW---- don't wait until the previous dose has worn off completely---- head it off at the pass.
I can't take them either ... I'm allergic to NSAIDs. So it happens, but it's good to know it can work. Glad you got some relief, Youve!
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