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Low Dose Immunotherapy

Anyone heard of low dose immunotherapy for treating lyme and co-infections? Specialty Natural Medicine in WA state offers this treatment for lyme. A detailed description is on their website. It's supposed to divert your immune system away from the bacteria. The thinking is that your body's immune response to the bacteria is what is causing your symptoms and that it is fighting a losing battle. It's a new treatment they say it has great success. It's pretty much the opposite of how we have been fighting the disease. However, I'm leary of essentially turning off my immune system towards the bacteria. Anyone try this with success?
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Avatar universal
You say, "I know people who did IV antibiotics and then relapsed years later."  

Or ... your friends were re-infected in another year, just as one can get a cold this year and get another one again in a future year.  Or ... your friends' infections were not entirely eradicated the first time around and then were resurgent.

If your theory is correct, then ALL infections -- colds, measles, mumps, strep throat, you name it -- should be eradicated by doing 'terrain' work.  Sorry, it just doesn't work in my view.

In the Middle Ages, you could do 'terrain work' around your castle, but that doesn't kill off the invaders -- it only slows them down.
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Avatar universal
My doctor told me when I started seeing him three years ago that I could not eradicate the infections. I believe him because I know people who did IV antibiotics and then relapsed years later. They can now say they are doing well because of lots of "terrain" work. I have been doing "terrain" work too, and I am trying to  improve my body's response to the infections. I have been improving overall and am about to start LDI for viruses.       I think we need to think more about the soil (us) than the seed (infections).
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Avatar universal
Sorry for the typo, that quote should be credited to specialtynaturalmediciNe.

It also seems to me that the LDI approach is another entry into the Lyme debate arena, falling mostly on the CDC side of the medical chasm, where Lyme isn't really a disease.  

I don't mind at all sharing the treatment space with different approaches, but I also don't believe that the disease I have is caused by my body's "inappropriate" reaction to an infection.  My joints hurt because my connective tissue is being destroyed; and yes, inflammation makes the pain worse.  But, if the DNA of the infecting bacteria can be found in my blood, then the bugger exists.  For Lyme, I don't credit my cells with inventing this particular foe to combat!
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Avatar universal
Well said.  
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Avatar universal
Bearing in mind that I do not have unlimited time to spend on this and therefore it is not an exhaustive search, I have searched and read every website I can find on LDI and Lyme.  Most of them are, quite honestly, advertisements.  I can find no scientific test results.

This seems to be as good a summary as any, from specialtynaturalmedicie, and I quote these paragraphs in full:
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"LDI for Lyme disease offers an extremely effective, nontoxic, safe, inexpensive, and user-friendly means of treating this condition. This is revolutionary in a very powerful sense. This therapy constitutes a tremendous breakthrough for some of our sickest patients, and represents a paradigm shift in the way we treat the problem.

The change in thinking involves switching from an “infection” model of Lyme disease to an “autoimmune disease” model.

Through the use of LDI in this context, we are stopping the immune system from making auto antibodies against the tissues of the body and causing chronic Lyme symptoms."
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SadWombat, your explanation makes more sense, but it is not what I'm finding the practitioners are publishing.  They are indicating that they entice the immune system to ratchet down its response in order to reduce inflammation, so it seems to me that the policemen are being directed to leave the Bb alone, not to destroy it.  Engaging it would create inflammation and one of the stated purposes of LDI is to eliminate inflammation, and do it very quickly.  

When inflammation is eliminated, it would make the person feel much better, but I return to my previous question of what are the long term effects of treating spirochete colonies that way?  There is no data on long term effects of treating a bacterial infection as an autoimmune reaction (LDI approach to treating Lyme simply hasn't been around very long).

I hope for the sake of the people pursuing it that LDI does provide long term relief, and a symbiotic relationship between a human host and Bb is possible.  Personally, although I will do further research on LDI and I will read with interest about people's LDI experiences, I will continue to pursue the eradication of the Lyme bacteria from my body.
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1763947 tn?1334055319
I was considering doing that but I can't be positive that the bugs will be killed.
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Avatar universal
Interesting discussion here ...

is there any reliable test data available that confirms whether the treatments in question (1) kill the bacteria or (2) only suppresses the invaders.

In LymeWorld and its long-standing controversy over whether Lyme is eradicated or merely suppressed, I would again opt for eradication rather than suppression, and how the treatment(s) truly act is of critical importance.

Lyme bacteria are related closely to the bacteria that cause syphilis (so I read) and have not seen that view challenged.  Why not kill off a Lyme infection just as one would with syphilis?  
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Avatar universal
I just had my first LDI injection back on the 23rd (7 days ago). Pain levels aren't great, but fatigue has noticeably diminished.

From what I understood the injection doesn't suppress the immune system but directs it. It's basically a Lyme antigen. (It has been years since my basic pathology course, I could be remembering this wrong, but...) Antigens show your immune system what bacteria/virus/mold/etc. should be killed. It's my understanding that it isn't suppressing the immune system just telling it what to destroy in your body. If you're having autoimmune responses this helps your body to stop hitting itself.

I guess a good analogy would be that if your immune response were police officers then antigens would be the arrest warrants detailing who the bad guys are.
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Avatar universal
I live in NY just above the Bronx and would like to find a doc who does LDI....or a naturopath who would work with Dr. Vincent.  I think finding the correct starting dose is critical and would prefer a doc who is know kinesiology (well) and could assist with this. I'm calling Dr. Ty's office tomorrow to see if they have names of docs he has trained but I wanted to send this out to others to see what they know.  I can't get a consult with Dr. Ty until January 26th!
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Avatar universal
I have done some reading and research, and you have nailed the central issue:  LDI does not do anything to treat the bacterial infection; rather, it "adjusts" the immune system so the immune system no longer reacts to the bacteria and therefore many of the symptoms may (or possibly may not) go away.  It has great potential to make people feel better, but it does not do anything to get rid of any of the bacteria.

So, the patient may feel better with lessened symptoms, but the bacteria have been given a free pass as the immune system no longer reacts to them.  They will continue to do damage to the body, although the patient will have no symptoms, or at least milder symptoms.

I understand the concept of taking LDI as used for ramping down allergic reactions (which are overreaction of the immune system to the allergens) and applying it to Lyme symptoms.  However, the definition of successful treatment of Lyme with LDI then transforms to become the elimination of symptoms instead of the elimination of the bacterial infection.

Seems it ultimately boils down to the question of whether one just wants the symptoms gone, or whether one wants the bacteria gone?  With LDI the symptoms can be gone but the bacteria continues to drill away and colonize the body.  It will be interesting long term to see if the LDI treatments stand up to time; even with no symptoms, the spirochetes will continue to damage the body so at some point will the continuing damage finally overcome the immune symptom suppression and will the symptoms return with more force?  Or will the immune system stay asleep and the patient remains symptom-free and feeling good but the body continues to get sicker and sicker from the on-going bacterial infection?  Time will tell.

Personally, knowing the bits I know about Lyme spirochetes and co-infections, I want the bacteria eliminated from my body.  As the bacteria are being killed, my symptoms are getting much better (even with the herxing!), so I am hopeful that when the bacteria are gone the symptoms will also be gone.  I believe in addressing the cause, not masking the symptoms.
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1763947 tn?1334055319
I listened to part of a lecture given by Ty Vincent. I understand the concept but even if my immune was much stronger I don't understand how it kills the lyme and co's already hiding all over my body.
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Avatar universal
My thought after reading your posts is that although this may be a new application of LDI, it does not seem to be a cutting edge treatment to eliminate Bb.  It could, however, be an effective way to reduce the symptoms in people who, for whatever reason, cannot eradicate the bacteria.  

Since Bb is not one of the bacteria that is part of the body's normal ecosystem, I personally do not want to settle for eliminating the symptoms; I want to get rid of the invader.  If for some reason I can't oust it, then (and only then) I would settle for alleviating the symptoms.

Allergies can be an overactive auto-immune response; a bacterial infection is not. This bacteria is not a symbiotic parasite or an idle hitchhiker, it's an active invader, hiding behind its shape-changing and biofilm protection to drill its way deeper into varied tissues, bones, and nervous system.  Bb has evolved to evade the immune system of whatever host it's in; it changes the protein composition of its surface depending on what type of critter (humans included) will be its next host, so as to increase its survival by better avoiding detection by the immune system of the host.

True that some people are infected with Bb and have not progressed from infection to disease.  Then again, Typhoid Mary never got the disease, but she certainly was host to the virus!

The CDC would officially like everyone to believe that chronic Lyme is nothing more than the immune system failing to recognize the bacteria is gone.  That could be true if the bacteria was, in fact, gone.  But for many of us, the bacteria is not gone; it's hiding where our immune system cannot find it.  In a nutshell, this is the Great Lyme Divide in current medicine.  The LLMDs believe the bacteria is not gone; it's hiding and camouflaged.  So they treat it that way.

While it's an interesting theory and I will research it more when I have time, I am sticking with my LLMD who is working to kill the bacteria.  My problem is not that my immune system is overreacting, it is that I have been invaded by a very nasty spirochete.  I want the bacteria, not just some symptoms, gone!

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Avatar universal
You say:  "... you're too close-minded to explore this cutting edge treatment for chronic Lyme on a great site full of info/studies and successful results ..."

Calling me names does not prove your assertion that a YouTube "explain[s] this cutting edge treatment".

You also say, "Its [sic] not a new concept in that Dr. Shrader and others have been using LDA for allergies, and this similar concept is having great success in chronic Lyme patients."  Waiting for proof.

"Too many success stories to dismiss this LDI approach."  There is also some great swamp land ... errr, 'waterfront property' in Florida you should invest in.  Saying you have too much proof does not ... prove your point.

You say, "Many of us with the Bb disseminated spirochetes have an inappropriate immune system response."  Then you say that the very same immune system response is the problem, and Lyme disease has no part to play:  "It's the inflammation that our immune system's inappropriate response has, that causes the damage, not the spirochetes themselves."  Oh, like when the firemen drag you out of a burning building, it's the firemen's fault you got burned.  Uh, no.

You say, "There are many people walking around with Bb spirochetes and are ASYMPTOMATIC, but those who do become symptomatic after the acute phase, have inappropriate responses to the spirochetes."  So ... you are saying that because your immune system can at first keep an infection under control but then is overwhelmed by the infection, the immune system acted 'inappropriately'?  No, the Lyme bacteria are doing what they were designed to do:  make you ill.  

Instead of your concept, have you considered that the Lyme bacteria are simply winning the battle against the patient's immune system ...?  That is consistent with your next statement that "LDI [low-dose immunotherapy] re-establishes immune tolerance and allows Treg cells to 'tolerate' the spirochetes and co-infections. I personally think that long-term antibiotics are going to become a thing of the past for treating chronic Lyme."

Lyme bacteria can hide in cyst-like structures ('bio-films') in the human body, allowing the bacteria to evade the human immune system and to carry on making mischief.  A human's test results for Lyme can readily come back as 'negative' because the human immune system does not perceive the presence of Lyme bacteria:  if there are no bacteria, then there is no Lyme and there are no worries! ... Right?

Uh, no:  Lyme bacteria have the ability to hide themselves in biofilms:  slimy shields where the human immune system cannot find them.  And what the immune system cannot 'see', it cannot report or kill.  Therefore the standard Lyme tests (Western blot and ELISA) can come back as negative, while the patient (human, dog, cat, etc.) can have a true and accurate Lyme infection.
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Much of the current medical community still relies on the W.blot and ELISA tests, and the patient can have a serious case of Lyme disease, while the test result is ostensibly *negative*.  

Your comments above include these:  

-- "There are many people walking around with Bb spirochetes and are ASYMPTOMATIC,"  

-- "but those who do become symptomatic after the acute phase, have inappropriate responses to the spirochetes."  An 'inappropriate response'?  Who do you go scold for acting so inappropriately?  The patient?   Maybe ... the patient is ill!  Maybe the patient needs to be tested and treated properly!  What a concept.  There are plenty of people dragging around who feel lousy day in and day out, not knowing why they felt so lousy ... until they were finally tested for Lyme and its co-infections.  I was one of those, and I know others who had the same illness and eventual testing and treatment.  Lyme is not a psychological problem:  it is a bacterial infection.  

-- "LDI re-establishes immune tolerance and allows Treg cells to 'tolerate' the spirochetes and co-infections."

Would you react the same way if you had ... say, syphilis?  Lyme and syphilis are in the same bacterial 'family'.  The goal is to *kill* the bacteria, not to give them tea and cookies in the parlor.  Read up on syphilitic dementia if you think this is no big idea.  For a very long time in the 20th century and before, prisons held not only criminals, but also ill people who had syphilis, a bacterial infection.  One my 'tolerate' the symptoms of syphilis for a while, but without proper diagnosis and treatment, there is only trouble, illness and death to come.

-- "I personally think that long-term antibiotics are going to become a thing of the past for treating chronic Lyme."

See above.  And the one hour film, when I have the time to watch it, I'll get back to you.

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You say, "LDI re-establishes immune tolerance and allows Treg cells to  'tolerate' the spirochetes and co-infections."  Immune tolerance?  So ... you go the rest of your life with Lyme disease, and take the serious risk of infecting your family and sexual partners with diseases in the syphilis family?  Really??

You say:  "Dr. Shrader and others have been using LDA for allergies, and this similar concept is having great success in chronic Lyme patients."  Allergies and syphilis' cousin (Lyme) are not in the same class.  Allergies won't give you dementia or death or infect your children or others in your intimate life.

===
You say, "There are many people walking around with Bb spirochetes and are ASYMPTOMATIC" -- Yes, and you can say the same about people walking around with syphilis, which is in the same bacterial family as Lyme.

You say, "... but those who do become symptomatic after the acute phase, have inappropriate responses to the spirochetes."   Wait, wait, wait.  'Inappropriate' means licking your dinner plate at a fancy restaurant, not someone with a debilitating and potentially deadly disease.  This is not a question of etiquette:  it is a question of life and the quality of life, and sometimes it is also a question of death.

You say, "LDI re-establishes immune tolerance and allows Treg cells to  'tolerate' the spirochetes and co-infections. I personally think that long-term antibiotics are going to become a thing of the past for treating chronic Lyme."  Good luck with all that.  The aversion to medication for debilitating and potentially deadly illnesses could only be the response of those who have never watched a family member or a dear friend become demented and die from an illness that could have been treated and cured.
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Avatar universal
Ok, if you're too close-minded to explore this cutting edge treatment for chronic Lyme on a great site full of info/studies and successful results, at least google and view Dr Ty Vincent's Youtube videos which explain this cutting edge treatment. Its not a new concept in that Dr. Shrader and others have been using LDA for allergies, and this similar concept is having great success in chronic Lyme patients. Similar concept is used in C-difficile with great success also.Too many success stories to dismiss this LDI approach. Many of us with the Bb disseminated spirochetes have an inappropriate immune system response. It's the inflammation that our immune system's inappropriate response has, that causes the damage, not the spirochetes themselves. There are many people walking around with Bb spirochetes and are ASYMPTOMATIC, but those who do become symptomatic after the acute phase, have inappropriate responses to the spirochetes. LDI re-establishes immune tolerance and allows Treg cells to  "tolerate" the spirochetes and co-infections. I personally think that long-term antibiotics are going to become a thing of the past for treating chronic Lyme.
Another great video with further info and worth the 56 min. watch!
http://www.voiceamerica.com/episode/87271/low-dose-immunotherapy-a-new-healing-tool
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Avatar universal
Sorry, but Facebook is not where I would look for medical advice.
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Avatar universal
Further to the above, an article that I read today that alludes more to the inappropriate immune response that one has in the chronic phase of Lyme disease; the basis of LDI treatment:

"Or is the problem due to an abnormal immune response, triggering an autoimmune illness. One example is the development of meat allergies from certain tick bites."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2015/09/04/lyme-deaths-from-heart-inflammation-likely-worse-than-we-thought/

Anyway, LDI seems to be a brilliant approach esp for those who cannot take long-term antibiotics or have had no major improvement with long term herbals.
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Avatar universal
Jackie, for further info and answers to all of your questions do join the LDI For Lyme Facebook group. Peruse through the Files section of the group, read the threads and comments and look at the long list of LLMDs and LLNDs treating with this. Further, many of us in Canada are being treated by LLNDs and LLMDs (going to US for this) whose names are not even on that list yet, to give you an idea of numbers......not that you really need to be challenging about it, though I know that's your nature. ;)
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Avatar universal
Where to begin.

"We shut off the immune inflammatory reaction, and symptoms go away."  Uh, if you shut off your immune system activity, nothing will be killing the bacteria.  It's like telling the soldiers guarding the castle to go home, and then the enemy will peaceably pack up and go home too.  

It is always good to have a healthy immune system, but if the immune system is 'shut off', and if you're not treating with antibiotics, nothing will be killing the bacteria.  

How do you prove the assertion that 'most LLMDs and LLNDs are starting to use [this approach]' due to the high percentage of success reached with it'?  Define 'most' -- at least 50%, and maybe higher?  Where is this conclusion published, with proof?

What is the mechanism that causes 'one's immune system' to 'start to respond'?    
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Avatar universal
$600 sounds hefty. Our LLND charges her regular $75 office fee and then the LDI doses,( which become less and less often needed as one's immune system starts to respond), are $40 each. The most affordable treatment out there at present. Sorry to hear no one in Florida treats with this yet as most LLMDs and LLNDs are starting to use it due to the high percentage of success reached with it.
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Avatar universal
Someone posted this response from Dr. Vincent on LDI:

" The point is: You don't have to kill the bacteria. Killing off part of your microbial "ecosystem" like that is not possible on a permanent basis; and it is not necessary in order to be well. The real underlying cause of chronic Lyme symptoms is the inappropriate immune response against the bacteria. The bacteria themselves do not cause direct harm to anyone, and therefore do not have to be eradicated (luckily, since that's impossible"). This fact is evidenced by research that routinely shows these bacteria to be present within completely healthy, asymptomatic people (why are't THEY sick too, if this disease is a true "infection'). We shut off the immune inflammatory reaction, and symptoms go away. That has to be maintained with ongoing doses at the right dilution. The heart can be affected by this immune response in some people - like rheumatic fever can, which is triggered by Strep in the throat.
We do not want the reaction to get worse at first (similar to a Herx reaction-which can certainly occur if the dose given is too strong); so the process should be to start at a very weak dilution and work gradually stronger over time to find a dose that gives improvement without an initial flare. I do NOT suggest taking antibiotics or antimicrobial herbs at all, at any point - because that changes the antigenic load and makes it very hard to find the right LDI dose. Plus, it's pointless. I hope that helps."
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Avatar universal
Use Dr. Google to read up more about it Jackie. Also, watch Dr. Ty Vincent's videos on LDI to answer your questions. :)
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Avatar universal
PS  bottom line:  the old-line Lyme docs do not understand the ability of Lyme bacteria to hide in biofilms that are not disturbed by doxycyline, which was the first antibiotic used again Lyme.

If taken VERY early in a Lyme infection, I understand that doxy CAN kill all the Lyme, because early on, the Lyme bacteria have not yet created and inhabited biofilms where the human immune system cannot penetrate.

When docs treat a Lyme patient with 'doxy only', then (1) the treatment generally fails and (2) the continuing symptoms the patient has are the result of continuing infections of still-living-and-reproducing Lyme bacteria.  When this failure rate was noticed a few years ago, the clueless docs pivoted to a new story:  'You're cured of Lyme, but your immune system doesn't know it it, so you are continuing to have all the symptoms of Lyme!  Good luck!'

That way lies misery, imo.  
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Avatar universal
To my understanding, 'auto-immunity' is when the body attacks itself instead of attacking (for example) bacterial invaders.  Multiple sclerosis and lupus are auto-immune diseases, to name two.

  -- National Institutes of Health:  "Your body's immune system protects you from disease and infection. But if you have an autoimmune disease, your immune system attacks healthy cells in your body by mistake. Autoimmune diseases can affect many parts of the body. No one is sure what causes autoimmune diseases."

  -- Wikipedia:  "Autoimmune diseases arise from an abnormal immune response of the body against substances and tissues normally present in the body (autoimmunity)."

  -- Healthline [dot] com:  "An autoimmune disease develops when your immune system, which defends your body against disease, decides your healthy cells are foreign. As a result, your immune system attacks healthy cells. Depending on the type, an autoimmune disease can affect one or many different types of body tissue."

Separately, from what I read, Lyme bacteria are not easily reached and killed by the human immune system because the bacteria create and hide in slimy shields called 'biofilms', where the immune system cannot reach the bacteria to kill them.  The medications given to Lyme patients are generally of two kinds:  first, one drug to break through the biofilms where the Lyme bacteria are hiding, and then another drug to then kill the bacteria.

That is why doxycycline is often ineffective in an established Lyme infection:  the Lyme bacteria are hiding in the biofilms, where the immune system cannot reach -- hence the need for biofilm-busters so the antibiotics can get to the Lyme bacteria and kill them.

This understanding of how Lyme shields itself from the human immune system (thus requiring antibiotics to break through) is the basis of LLMD approaches to eradicate Lyme in patients.  
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Avatar universal
Lymes in fact is a autoimmune disorder it floods the lymphatic system and forms cystic pockets of nasty drilling spirochetes. These spirochetes when matured also form husks that biochemically resemble regular cellular tissue. Most treatments are worthless as they fail to address these issues. You can boost your immune system but if it cant reach the problem whats the point.
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