Lyme coinfection - chlamydia pneumoniae

[lizzy1958614]

Hi Have just sent blood to Germany for Lyme testing. The elispot was negative but the immunblot was borderline. I did test positive for 2 coinfections - ehrichlia and chalamydia pneumoniae. Have read up on both of them and am worried that it says the cp is contagious. I have not had a chest infection or similar in the last 5 years. Would i still be contagious.

Many thanks

[lizzy1958614]

Thank you will take a look.

[cave76]

I just remembered you're in the UK----- and Tom Griers articles and Cure Unknown were written mostly about the problems in the U.S.

But----- I'd still recommend them. The situation is almost the same except for different lab test names, denialism, NHS vs private insurance.

[cave76]

"I am finding the more I read the more confused I get !"

I understand completely! Until you read (and read and read) more confusion seem to reign. (I'm not talking about reading the forums.)

For easy reading start with any article by Tom Grier.
Have you read Cure Unknown?

[mkh9]

The one thing that was asked is can PCR pick up dead and live bacteria or can it distinguish between the two. Yes PCR can pick up both live and dead bacteria but no it cannot distinguish between the two. What are you confused about? Perhaps I one of us can explain. Do you know how long it will take before you get your results?  Usually it shouldn't take more than a day except there was time lost in sending the sample.
mkh9

[lizzy1958614]

Thank you for your explanation.

I am finding the more I read the more confused I get !

[cave76]

", I dont know the difference in PCA and PCR??"

Yikes!!! I mis-keyed! I meant PCR ----- it's not  'your ignorance'--- it's my brain/fingers mis-firing.

So BCA didn't test for PCR for Borellia (doctor didn't order it I guess) However, as I described before, if you get a negative that doesn't mean a darned thing. A positive is a positive but the chances of a positive might be 50/50, maybe less since Borellia doesn't like to live in the blood stream.

It might be worth the chance though, if it doesn't cost you anything AND if your doctor will order it. And as long as your doctor and you understand a negative doesn't mean anything definitive.

Your test results show you are negative for the Elispot LTT.

Because I'm never satisfied that a test is "always" one way or the other I started reading about the LTT. Casting aside the accounts from labs or clinics that use the LTT I looked further.

At least on paper said this:
"A Borrelia-LTT test that has become negative is not evidence, however, that a Borrelia infection has been cured"

The entire paper is here:
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/toneuj/articles/V006/SI0078TONEUJ/104TONEUJ.pdf

And a very well known LLMD in the U.S. doesn't find it all that promising---- but that's just his opinion, although he probably did a lot of research first.

I remain skeptical about any test being 'true' and that includes your IgM and IgG tests. I've seen them bounce around from almost day to day.

Sorry to sound negative----- but...........

[lizzy1958614]

Hi and thank you for your comments.

Yes it was the BCA in Augsburg.

I am going to show my ignorance here, I dont know the difference in PCA and PCR??

My results were
Borrelia Elispot LTT negative

Borrelia blot IgG antibodies negative
Borrelia blot IgM antibodies borderline + bands OspC bg (+)

Chlam pneu IgG antibodies Elisa +1.6
Chlalm pneu IgA Elisa 2.5
Chlam pneu Elispott Ltt + 21
Ehrlichia Elispot Ltt +4

Reading up on the clam pneu it is ghastly to get rid of. Years of antibiotics. What I cant get my head round is that it seems to be a bacteria which most of the population is exposed to. So if you go eradicate it after many years of antibiotics then you can get reinfected! Am just so worried I am contagious.

[cave76]

Can you tell us which lab in Germany you sent your blood work to?

Was it BCA in Ausberg? They have a pretty good rep. I also notice that they will do a PCR test on your blood if requested......... I wonder, do you know if your doctor requested one?

[cave76]

If a PCR test comes back positive------ it means the DNA of a particular bacteria is found in the sample. (I'm not sure if it can distinguish between a dead bacteria or a live one.) So it's pretty much a slam dunk as a positive.


If a PCR test comes back negative----- all you know is that particular sample (blood, spinal fluid, tissue) did NOT show any evidence. The next PCA test might. So a negative isn't proof that the person doesn't have that bacteria in their blood/whatever.

[mkh9]

Lizzy1958614,
What test did you sent the blood sample to Germany for? PCR should resolve the difference in the Elispot and Westernblot. The Elispot is a sensitive test but not specific because it uses an antibody for detection and it can cross react with a lot of things. the Western blot can be as sensitive and specific as the PCR but the problem is often times the immune system is too low or also not in sync with when they test the sample so it can come up falsely negative. The PCR detects actual bacteria in the sample. This is not dependent on your immune status and so it will pick up any bacteria in the blood, or other sample sent. It is about 96% sensitive and more specific. The one that the people on this site recommend at the lab IgeneX is more sensitive because they can detect even <1 organism due to the method they use. Of course no one method is 100% but it is pretty good compared to a lot of the other reference labs in the U.S., for Lyme detection. I don't know what method Germany uses but hopefully you will get a good answer and start the correct treatment if you haven't yet started.
take care,
mkh9

[lizzy1958614]

Thank you for all the replies. I sent blood to Germany via DHL. Fairly easy to organise. Unfortunately there are very few LLD in the UK. Its a case of self help.The German lab is well respected.

[cave76]

Lizzy is from the UK, if her (?) profile is correct. But I guess she (?) can still get tested by IGenex.  However, Igenex probably can't test for most European strains.

Igenex performs a free PCR test on all Western Blot tests.

C. pneumoniae ----- as mkh9 said. And you'd have a twofer. :) You're positive for two diseases that can be treated with the same drug-------if the test can be trusted then treatment should proceed, in my opinion. That's how I'd go.

Of course your doctor would have to agree, but I see no reason for him not to.

[mkh9]

Sounds like you need to have further testing with PCR for your Lyme confirmation. I hope you are seeing a lyme literate doctor or ( LLMD) who can direct you to a good PCR test. I believe the PCR test is called IgeneX. But regarding the Chlamydia pneumoniae part of the question. What kind of test did you have done for the C. pneumo? Was this recently? You can be a carrier of C. pneumo and still be able to transmit the organism and not have symptoms.  It is transmitted from person to person and you may not feel sick.  It is complicated answer. For most people they will fight the organism off and not get sick anyway. But they are finding that C. pneumo can cause a lot of  problems other than atypical pneumonia or "walking pneumonia" although these are rare. Some examples are arthritis and that they like to attach themselves to your arteries, and so forth. If you are going to get treated with Doxycycline for Ehrlichia it should be good for treatment of Chlamydia pneumonia anyway. Hope this helped.

[shadow3680]

my guess is no

[nazzyb]

I cantent about your qs but how did you send the blood im curious