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Avatar universal

No herx?

I started treatment 5 days ago, including antibiotics called minocin, samento, lumbrokinase, benicar and heavy metal detoxification. I have not noticed a change at all, no herx, no progression, no nothing. Is this normal?
12 Responses
Avatar universal
I have not taken any of the meds/supps you mention, so no personal experience to report on ... but I do know that everyone is different, so don't be surprised if you don't find anyone with your own reaction.  It also depends on what infection(s) you have.  The mix of bugz, your personal immune system, and which meds/supps is a lot of variables to account for.

Also, there's no quick cure.  It's not like an earache where you start feeling better in a couple of days, and even Herxes aren't predictable in anyone.  I never felt noticeably worse on meds, just vague episodes of illness along the lines of what I had experienced pre-medication.  This may change as you go along, so hang in there!
867582 tn?1311627397
Maybe the heavy metal detox you are undergoing is helping reduce the potential for herx, but from what I have read, when mercury is removed from the body, taken away from the Lyme bacteria, they hate it and should cause symptoms for sure.  

Also, I have read that undergoing antibiotics without a herx might mean it's not Lyme. That's one way some LLMDs confirm or eliminate Lyme diagnosis - they give you a trial of antibiotics and then if no herx, it's likely not Lyme.   I have been on Samento (Cat's claw) and it gave me a major herx.  I can't tolerate it.  Just five drops of Samento put me in bed for 3 days!!

Lets examine your current meds:  Hmmm,  lumbrokinase is a proteolytic enzyme, rather than an antibiotic.  It helps prevent coagulation (a real problem in Lyme disease) so lumbrokinase shouldn't cause a herx.  

Benicar also is not an antibiotic.  It is an antihypertensive medication to lower high blood pressure.  I know that Benicar is used when you are following the Marshall protocol of vitamin D avoidance to eliminate Lyme (often in the final stage to finally eradicate the Lyme altogether).  Don't think it should cause a herx.

Sooo, only 2 of your 4 medications are antibiotics:  Minocin, which is a protein synthesis inhibitor, and Samento which is a natural antibiotic (cat's claw).  It could be your doses are too low or that you have lots of Lyme in cyst form (which neither of your current antibiotics attack). Your Samento is likely from Nutramedix so it is T.O.A. free, as it should be.  Maybe you could increase your dose of Samento gradually, with your LLMD's consent, and see if that brings on a herx?  The full dose of Samento I was ordered was a gradually increasing dose up to 15 drops two to three times alone daily on an empty stomach, but of course, I only made it up to 5 drops one time.  I also think you need to shake the Samento before dosing it.  Please review the instructions to make sure you're taking it right.  Also, the batch of Samento might be ineffective for some reason.  You might try a different bottle of Samento.  

Another thing that could allow you to not herx is if you have already been on your other antibiotic, minocin, previously.  Sometimes there is a tolerance built up.  Antibiotics unfamiliar to your body would be more likely to cause a herx reaction.

Have you had any lab tests from IgenIX?  Were Lyme bands seen?

It might be too soon to give up on Lyme, but if other antibiotics at strong dosages don't cause herxing, you might have your answer.

Hope this helps you.

Good luck to you!

WAF




867582 tn?1311627397
Coincidentally, a Lymie just sent me a referral to a website discussing the synergy between antibiotics and non-antibiotics.  Your current antibiotic, Minocine, is mentioned (as minocycline).  

You can read about it at:  http://www.highlighthealth.com/research/synergy-between-antibiotics-and-nonantibiotic-drugs/

That site is certified by HONcode for trustworthy health information.

WAF
1464587 tn?1307491605
Hello everybody,
I took 2 months of doxycycline in november and december and my symptoms got so intense and the herxing was tremendous almost everyday.. and got even worse the heavier I took the meds. It got so intense and I wasn't getting better I decided to go off them and try natural. Medicine only for 5 months.... things had gotten worse and now I have started azithromyacin for 2 or 3 weeks..... my conditon is getting worse but with no herxing..... what could this mean?
Avatar universal
Hi

Docs will sometimes have patients back off on the dose of meds if the herxes are too intense, to avoid overwhelming your body with the die-off of the bacteria.  Did your doc recommmend that to you?  I would not try to guesstimate how much antibiotic to take, but would work with the doc to determine that, because if you take the meds at a dose too low to kill the bugs, you can create antibiotic-resistant infections, and that's double trouble.

Maybe your doc has put you on azithromycin, so that's good that you've had the conversation with him/her.  Not everyone herxes a lot or on every med, but the first question is:  are you taking only "zith"?  My LLMD treated with zith plus Flagyl, which acts to break the cysts the bacteria hide in, and then the zith kills them.

Were you tested for other infections as well?  If so, which ones and with what results, and what did your doc say?
1464587 tn?1307491605
Hey jackie,

I did answer you on wonkos post My recent LLMD appt......
So please take a peek at that also the other test he is doing are, bartonella, babesiosis, ehrilcosis, anoplasmosis, lyme pcr, coxiella burneti, rickettsia profile, p rheumatiod pcr, cocci titers and h pylori titers.
I also wrote down my western blot results on wonkos post as well.
Avatar universal
I'm on minocycline 50mg once every other day, lumrokinase 1 twice a day. Benicar 1 three times a day and the heavy metal detox, which is alot. I take 4 chlorella tablets 3 times a day with each meal, then 12 chlorella tablets 30 minutes before I go to bed. Then 30 minutes after that I put 10 drops of Cilantro in 4oz of water and drink that before I go to bed.Also I'm doing 6 drops of samento under my tongue twice a day. But I am experiencing no herx. I have had a positive ELISA Lyme test, followed by both bands 41 on igm and igg that are positive, those test were not done by my LLMD. But once I went to my LLMD he said he considered those test results positive. Also he tested my CD57 NK cells and the range is supposed to be between 60-360 and mine was 24. So my LLMD said I didn't have to get the igenex test, and that he would just treat me. So I started the above treatment. I have to say that you guys are kind of scaring me because you all have experienced a herx and I haven't. Please someone help me!

WeakandFalling----I read the link you posted but quite didn't understand it. What did it say about minocycline?

--Thank you!

Sent from my iPhone
Avatar universal
I'm not medically trained and don't have the background to figure out what the treatment you are having is based on or pointed at, but to my reading, band 41 is NOT specific to Lyme, but also includes all other bacteria that a spiral-shaped.  So it COULD be Lyme, but could be other things instead.  

The CD57/natural killer cells are said by LLMDs to be a specific indicator of Lyme disease, so that would seem to argue in favor of you having Lyme.  

That said, Lyme is a clinical diagnosis, based on history and symptoms, so your doc may well be right; he's the doc, I'm not.  

I never got serious Herxes, just vaguely feeling worse than other times, not very noticeable.  I'd suggest you express your concerns to your doc -- that's the best course of action imo.

867582 tn?1311627397
I want to correct some things I said in my earlier post to you.  

I was wrong about Benicar. Yes, it is used in the Marshall approach to beating Lyme, but it also can be used just as a treatment for Lyme because it enhances the effects of antibiotics and other Lyme treatment, such as using a rife machine, as it decreases inflammation.

I was also quite wrong about Benicar's not causing a herx reaction.  Yes, it can cause a herx which, in some, can be quite severe.

One thing you could try to see if you have a herx reaction (if you are still not herxing on your current medication regimen) would be a "rife machine."  Rife machines will produce herx reactions in people who have Lyme.  Find someone in your local Lyme community who has a "Doug Coil" rife.  The "Doug Coil" rife machine is quite powerful and it should produce a herx in you if you do have Lyme.  Just don't use the "Doug Coil" too long.  My doctor suggested only 5 to 10 seconds for the first time and then wait to see what happens.  Be prepared with things you can use to help control any herxes you might have later.  Don't use the machine again for a couple of weeks.  Good luck to you!

WAF
Avatar universal
Hi,
I talked to my LLMD and he says not everyone has a herx. I have been feeling extra fatigued. But I am not sure if that's w herx. Maybe just caused by Lyme. But he said a herx is not something I should want or look for, and it's perfectly normal not to have a herx. Also, my dose of abx is really low. Only 50 mg of minocycline every other day. Thank you for your comments everyone.
Avatar universal
I don't know about minocycline, never took it, but herxes can be anything from zero to feeling out of sorts to feeling really bad -- it's different in everyone.  The only common thing in Lyme is that it hits everyone differently.  Hang in there!
Avatar universal
Thank you Jackie :)
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