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Avatar universal

Sudden onset of skin wrinkling and sagging in arms

Hi all. New to this. I am a 44 year old woman who is physically fit (gym 5 days a week) and eats pretty well.

Approx 5 weeks ago I developed veins showing on both hands. They have not gone away and infact they are bulging most times, and I can "feel them". They have increased and I can see some starting to climb up my forearm now. Before this, my veins barely ever showed.

Approx 2 weeks ago, I developed wrinkling (crepe paper look) on my forearms (near connection of elbow) and on my upper arms. My arms have gone from 44 years old to looking like those of a 60 year old woman.

Approx 5 days ago my skin started sagging and I have now developed that "flap" by my triceps. My arms have always been my pride and joy..I work so hard at them, and they have been so tone,..now they look flabby and sagging with wrinkles.
I am in a panic. Have a doctors appointment for Friday.

Yes, I am fair, Yes, I have been sunburnt many times over the years. My mother had wrinkles also, but to have this come on so very sudden, I don't know what to think.

As far as periomenopause, it sounds like this shouldn't happen so suddenly and usually the elasticity is after menopause. I don't have any symptoms yet, except for my period being early once in a while.

I am 44 years old, and have gone, in 2 weeks, from having 44 year old skin to skin of a 60 year old. Could someone please help? I'm very distressed.
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Avatar universal
im sorry i dont have an answer for you but i thought i was nutz cuz this happened to me it seemed like ovrnite ): literally. but i never workd out for my tummy and arm toneness i was lucky and yes they were my pride!! now theyre my embarassment. how can this happn so quickly. i thought mine was double whammy of being in late 40s n recently diagnosed with anemia. i used to b energizer bunny but with this i can barely make my bed.)):  i hope you get answers that may help me as well. im miserable )):
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2 Comments
Not sure about your arms as I have the same problem. Unless you lost a lot of weight. It may be estrogen loss.I pile on the cream but it doesn't help much. I was thinking of seeing a dermatologist. But I wonder if your energy issues are low thyroid. You might want to get that checked . It happened to me in my early 50's and happens in mid life. So get your TSH level done and see if it is off. Also check for anemia.
hope you feel better soon.
mkh9
Sick O' Yesterday, I rechecked your post and saw your were anemic. So did you get your iron level tested and complete blood count (CBC)? What else? Did you have your ferritin or folate, B12 done? If it is iron deficiiency I would be glad to talk to you about that. I have had it in the past. I still take some iron for the rest of my life but less of it. Low iron can be due to diet issues, bleeding maybe due to fibroids or hemorroids etc or sometimes medications can alter your iron intake or also even malaborbtion of food in the intestines. So it would be good if you could find the reason. But if it is iron then did the doctor tell you how much to take a day? If so you should take that for about 3 months and re-test the iron and CBC etc. It takes about 3-6 months to feel better. But you will feel better. I know it is exhausting.
mkh9
Avatar universal
*UPDATE:

Best arm workout I've found for "Sagging/Crepey" arms! Copy and Paste url address below:

https://youtu.be/dzWc0JTsPhg
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Avatar universal
*UPDATE:

I ended up trying the "Neocell Beauty Infusion" and my blood pressure shot up like crazy. I tried it for two days with the same results. I'm guessing it's due to the Hyaluronic Acid thickening the blood stream elevating blood pressure, which was enough for me to notice with a pressure headache and weakness/tired. I have Hypertension with a family history of it, along with two  members passing away from it. So returning this product today.

I'll continue with the Unflavored Gelatin and see how that goes.
Helpful - 1
Avatar universal
Our hormones control our entire body, brain activity, heart beat, skin rejuvenation, etc., and with he slow down hormones we're basically breaking down.

What I've done to keep facial wrinkles at bay is use a "Buff Puff" sponge (you can get them @ 99cent Store), with a cleanser from @ Target called No7 Beautiful Skin Age Defence Cleanser (with is infused with citrus). This helps brighten your face washing off old dull dead skin, but also stimulates your face to readily turn over new skin. I also use a great moisturizer which is a personal choice. I've done this for years and has taken years off my face.

For my body I use brushing technique, as well as us a kitchen sponge (with one side spongy and the other side with a soft scrubber) and I scrub my skin until it's a bit pink to stimulate the skin and blood flow.

These techniques have seriously helped through the years, HOWEVER, now I'm 61 and see the crepe and sag overnight. I've taken my new vitamin regime as mentioned above and I already slightly see a difference!

Food plays a major part in aging as well. Eat Non GMO and Organic as much as you can. Take Non GMO vitamins. Stop Smoking and Drinking (dehydrates). You MUST take "complex" amino acids to help build muscle and tone skin. Also, coconut creams and oils is "drying" for your skin. Stay out of the sun as much as you can, or use a good sun screen and cover up. Drink lots of water during the day so you don't have too many potty runs at night.

*If you're having night sweats, "can't sleep/insomnia" , rapid heart palpitations, mood swings or sudden depression, minor loss of memory ( any or all )  you may be on your way to menopause.

At one point I felt I was having a heart attack because of rapid heart beats! My doctor told me hormones control our heart rythm and she put me on a Beta Blocker for a while. I've taken them for a few years now and just got off of them with no problems whats so ever.

Bleeding/spotting once in a great while is normal. Your vaginal walls are shedding cells. But always check with your doctor if this occurs can sometimes be something else. You'll want to make sure.

I found Black Cohosh to be amazing during PMS and Menopause to help hormone balance. But you can take too much as it has a natural hormone which can cause cancer (no true verdict on test studies yet), all I know is it helped me feel better.

Check your vitamin D and B12 levels as well for over all health.

*Topical hormones are NOT good because they don't properly dissolve into your body. They have an accumulation effect and that's what causes cancer.

Since my memory is minor I've noticed with I take a herbal type hormone it gets better so I'll have to do more research on it.

I'LL BE DAMNED IF I DON'T GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT. It's a lot of work and can be painful with the pinching, scrubbing, etc...but I've noticed a difference. I'll be back and let you know how the new vitamin regime is going....:)

Helpful - 1
Avatar universal
Hi, so happy to have come across this site....:D

There are many things that have contributed to rapid aging. GMO food products, fluoride laced water, chemtrails (rain producing chemicals sprayed from airplanes, etc.), AND MENOPAUSE DOESN'T HELP ANY...GRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I'm 61 and now having crepey skin and slight droopy/sagging arms effects. Yuck.  

~With lots of research this is the new regime I'm putting myself on below.~

1. Unflavored Gelatin = works wonders for tone of skin and muscles.

2. "Complex" Amino Acids = loss of muscle mass and skin tone due to normal aging. Also, amazing for energy gain. (already noticed the difference in my energy).

3. Non GMO multi vitamin for women.

4. Chelated Cal-Mag (women our age at least 1,200. mg daily) Good for bones and thinning skin.

5. Two tablespoons of Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

6. I do drink coffee but will be cutting back. I already eat as much organic as I can (Ralphs market organic is not pricey) I already eat lots of greens and protein.

NOTE: If I don't see any effects in 3 months I will add MSM and a product called Beauty Infusion which is a powdered mixture of Hyaluronic Acid, Biotin, Alpha Lipoic Acid Hdrolyzed NeoCell Collagen, mixed with other minerals, and start drinking Whole Fat Milk.

I do want to check into this oil swishing?

I'll check back and let you now how my skin is doing!





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1 Comments
I have and continue to do all these things except for the full fat milk. Instead of the gelatin, I use marine collagen. I used gelatin and it made my migraines worse. While I am taking all these things (for almost 12 years now), my arms had a little wrinkle party.
Avatar universal
Wow! I love how similar all our experiences are sometimes. I made the mistake of looking at my legs while doing downward dog today and holy cow! My skin over my knees is hideous, and I also notice that my inner thighs are getting lumpy, it's not cellulite per se, I don't know how to describe it, it's just lumps.
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Avatar universal
The common denominator seems to be women who spend time outdoors and get sprayed with bio insecticides for mosquito control.  I was sprayed in Santa Monica, California in approx. April 2008.   I was gardening in my back yard at 6:30 a.m. and a small plane passed overhead and sprayed me with some type of vitreous pesticide.  Where it hit my scalp I began losing hair over the next few weeks.  I made the mistake of touching the fluid on my scalp and then scratching 3 out of 7 new mosquito bites I happened to have.  The 3 areas I scratched later developed huge deep skin infections.  In 2008 I easily passed for twenty years younger than I was.  After getting infected my body began itching and developed psoriasis and my skin became like crepe.  Some of the crepe like skin has reversed.  That's not natural aging.  I spent $30,000 on cures as my HMO claimed I had a mental problem, not a physical problem.  My cat who was sprayed at the same time I was suffered a horrible death of crazy itching.  We itched together until she died (I've had poison oak and this relentless itching was so much worse).  I used Bactrim, Ivermectin (in chemotherapy doses on a daily basis for three years) before the itching began abating.  I lost a lot of hair permanently and my hair turned grey.  I eventually discovered that the pesticide gave me Morgellons (the things I found under my magnifying glass that were emerging from my skin were similar to pictures I found on the Internet).  Radio frequency treatment (light thermage) helped kill the bugs in the skin of my legs and stopped the itching.  I also found that bloodletting at the areas of skin lesions helped my body eject the bugs and eggs.  I've noticed some people in their 20's living near the beach in S. Calif. like I do have aged dramatically in just a couple of years.
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Avatar universal
Same here. I am 52,live in California, 5'4, and weigh112.  not only did my arms and legs turn into an 80 year old bbut my butt!!!  That was always my proud part, now it has 4 to 5 layers going down bottom of my cheeks!  So embarrassing.
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Avatar universal
I have seriously wrinkly skin on my arms and thighs. This happened pretty quickly and I like many of you am going around in long sleeves and slacks or yoga pants.  To the person who posted get a pair of weights and get over it (I paraphrase). To others who understand the problem and mentioned weight gain.  Weights will not do the job if one has sever loss of skin elasticity.  There are  also those of us who are limited by osteoarthritis in the use of weights. Also, for me anyway, weight gain has not helped. Well meaning people told me that I was too thin. I have gained 12 pounds and not an ounce has gone to my arms.To the opinionated person who said quit wanting to be a cute young thing forever: You have not a clue as to what is in our minds; I guarantee that it has nothing to do with being a cute young thing.

On a more positive note, I am going to try the suggestions about supplementing with magnesium and iodine.  Thank you for your suggestions.
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1 Comments
Well said. x
Avatar universal
"Exposed to a dessicant?" What / how? I have the same symptoms.
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Avatar universal
i am so glad i bumped into this amazing forum. Thank you for being so honest. Thank god i can now be honest with you girls
So not fair it's a general girlie problem. And like you girls, have noticed 'changes' in the inner tights and creepy flabby bingo wings even if I work out!
I am 43. Diagnosed approaching early menopause a couple of months ago, i freaked out. Stress i believe was the deterrent for this hiccup in my hormonal balance. It helped deep meditation and, surprise surprise, my addiction to extreme stuff is paying off!
Cold water. Just bathe every day if you can, in cold hopefully natural running water. Gets rid of the stress almost immediately. AND you will see a change in your skin. The colder the better.A half minute dip (not the head) breathing deeply, but starting gently with your body. Then increase. Tingly energy will flush through your body.
I sadly live in London but usually go back to my beloved Dolomites to bathe there.
People might think you are a nutter, so get ready. Keep the secret. :-)
and meditate.
I usually use extra virgin olive oil on my wet skin. not bad, too. I tried in the past different body creams as the water in London is crap. Nothing is better than olive oil. Not oily, not smelly.
Taking fish oils supplements and hyalunoic acid, and Alpha lipoic acid.
I hope this thread is still alive.
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Avatar universal
i am so glad i bumped into this amazing forum. Thank you for being so honest. Thank god i can now be honest with you girls
So not fair it's a general girlie problem. And like you girls, have noticed 'changes' in the inner tights and creepy flabby bingo wings even if I work out!
I am 43. Diagnosed approaching early menopause a couple of months ago, i freaked out. Stress i believe was the deterrent for this hiccup in my hormonal balance. It helped deep meditation and, surprise surprise, my addiction to extreme stuff is paying off!
Cold water. Just bathe every day if you can, in cold hopefully natural running water. Gets rid of the stress almost immediately. AND you will see a change in your skin. The colder the better.A half minute dip (not the head) breathing deeply, but starting gently with your body. Then increase. Tingly energy will flush through your body.
I sadly live in London but usually go back to my beloved Dolomites to bathe there.
People might think you are a nutter, so get ready. Keep the secret. :-)
and meditate.
I usually use extra virgin olive oil on my wet skin. not bad, too. I tried in the past different body creams as the water in London is crap. Nothing is better than olive oil. Not oily, not smelly.
Taking fish oils supplements and hyalunoic acid, and Alpha lipoic acid.
I hope this thread is still alive.
Helpful - 1
Avatar universal
You are so right! A year ago, April 3rd 2014, after going to this dentist/endo-specialist, I came out alright until about walking two blocks away after visit I got this sudden dry mouth incident and the effect of a rush, with the speed of light, from one side of my upper gums to the other side of the mouth. This was so intense I gasped for air and the first reaction was to rinse my mouth/thinking I've been exposed to ??? and drink water to be able to actually 'swallow'. This was just the start of a constant need to replenish of fluids/water, DEHYDRATED. By the end of June of same year, divorced, 'off' of the dating scene and happiest than ever been in my life, I encountered some stress while trying to meet a project deadline...soon after I got a bloody blister, in upper right hand palm, and a couple of small round blister between two my right hand fingers, all symptoms imaginable and THIS CREPE LOOKING SKIN ON MY HANDS AND ARMS. AWFUL LOOKING! I later notice my upper legs look like I was older more like a 70 or 80 years old woman, AS MY MUSCLE MASS HAD DECREASED ABOUT 30%. In my fifties I looked from behind like a 25 years old woman, which many a times I caught disappointment in men's faces when they took a second look at my face. Sorry, but my routine of going to the gym 4-5x/wk and 3x/wk yoga raw foodist/organic food/non-restaurant/non-processed eater/consumer and great genes and family history I'm sure contributed to. Being a dietitian/heatlh coach/personal trainer YOU THINK you can
have control of your health and health outcome. NO! This explains very well our being connected in more ways that we want to be. When you go to a professional 'seeking their help', you might get it or might not, because it all depends on what this professional has in plan for you. Yes you may be in one of a 'targeted group'. In my case I was candid enough to share with my dermatologist of 25+ years that I thought the endo/dentist exposed me to it. He turned on me becoming the lead support, followed by the pcps of the dentist, they called my rash, shingles. I became an observer of respected professionals faking ignorance, none of them were listening to my contribution/ suggestions. I got out of the insurance, went private and that's how I found out that I'd even been walking with Strep-throat for close to five months, and that was only the beginning... As a health coach I tried everything on earth I knew to fix the problem, but only the MDs can requests lab tests, I've known better on how to go around the system since then, though.
I think people need to be more aware of what's going on...

*I BELIEVE I WAS EXPOSED TO A DESICCANT THAT RESULTED IN MY DEHYDRATION, PROCEEDING TO LOSS OF MUSCLE AND CREPE SKIN APPEARANCE.

*I IMPROVED IT BY ABOUT 10% BY TAKING IN NATURAL COLLAGEN ON AN EMPTY STOMACH, INCREASING MY RESISTANCE TRAINING BY 10% AND CONTINUING MY EXERCISE ACTIVITIES RELIGIOUSLY AND LISTENING TO MY BODY. When I go for food shopping I only shop for what by body calls for...don't take a list with me...listen to your body, your body can help self repair.


GOOD LUCK TO ALL, AND PROTECT YOURSELVES BY EDUCATING YOURSELVES ON YOUR BODY, and your HEALTH. Besides take pharma-based/professional medicine ...with a grain of salt...!  

With Love for all,
jean
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Avatar universal
This HAS to be a genetic issue. I am 51 years young, blonde hair, fair skin, blue eyes, of Scandinavian decent. My skin had always been dry and thin, but extreme wrinkling and sagging did literally occur over night this year. I always looked younger than my years, and still do if fully clothed. Oh, and people do notice! My niece wondered aloud why her mom (a year younger than I) looked so much younger due to my arm wrinkles. My mother-in-law, who is almost 80 and smoked most of her adult life, is 50 pounds over weight, and eats a high sodium/processed food diet has younger looking skin and less wrinkles on her arms and legs than I do. So, my life of moderate sun, non-smoking, eating organic / balanced diet, and keeping physically fit has given me the oldest looking arms and knees! Yet others I know who are in the sun more than I, smoke, and have unhealthy lifestyles still look amazing. One thing I will not do is give up on wearing shorts or sleeveless tops, even though I know my skin looks awful. It is bad enough going through menopause and being hot all the time – I don’t think I could handle having long sleeves and pants on during my hot flashes!  
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Avatar universal
Order and read the book "The solution to the danger of modern nutrition". by Hardick, Roberto, & Lerner. You will learn how to get your body back in balance so that it will be well enough nutritionally and metabolically to keep hormones and just overall function optimally healthy and in check... part of the book talks about toxicity in our foods, personal products, and environment which contribute to disease and looking old before our time. If you seriously change your nutrition, your skin will reflect your new informed good choices. ***************.com promotes these principles if you want help. Good luck. Also don't be embarrassed about checking on "beauty treatments" like fractionated laser treatments -- it helps regenerate new skins and collagen. Google that too. (I did my face 6 mo.s ago and it was subtle, but still helpful and noticeable in a good way to myself and a few others... Which is nice because they're not sure why, at 54, I still look so young for my age. :) Buuut, the crepiness in the folds of my elbows and the tops of my thighs came on fast in the last month or so. I'm determined thru maximized living and a little laser therapy to address the issue to stay as young as I can for as long as I can. You could also ask for a strong personally made topical peeling lotion from your cosmetic laser surgery doctor as well. Best if luck.
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Avatar universal
I am around your age and all of a sudden I have a sagging double chin and I never had.  And an extra hundred pounds that went on instantly felt like  

After tons and tons of bloodwork I found out it was my thyroid and it was also my hormones. It could be your hormones do not rule that out.   I feel like I’m looking at a different person when I look at myself. Thyroid and hormones are so incredibly influential on our bodies. It is actually kind of scary. I am now on like five different medications to try and get my body back and I feel so unhealthy taking all this medicine I don’t see only way they say I can get my body back and my face the way it used to be. Feel free to talk to me I understand what you were going through and it’s nice to know there’s someone that he’s going through it to too  that you can talk to
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Avatar universal
Update on my transformation.  I went to the doctor about 2 years ago and he asked how I was.  I pointed down to my body and said "Well, you can see how I am, I have transformed into this".  He said, "what's this".. I said "this", indicating, its not a woman, its somewhere in between an old woman AND and old man.  Flubby lower tummy, flabby crinkled arms, barely any hair (all crunchy and dry).  He said "I don't like how you are sounding"... and suggested an anti depressant and hormone replacement.  There doesn't appear to be any answers beyond this.  If you have any further insights please let me know.  I think its time to change my name to "Frank".
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2 Comments
This suggested wrinkling is due to hormone decline, I reversed and fixed my sudden onset wrinkling with natural progesterone cream and Estriol cream, bioidentical versions 10% strength available on the net. Could not believe how I looked at my withering arms one day and about 2 months later suddenly they were back to their plump self, fine lines around my mouth also disappeared. Roxy Dillon has a lot to say about this so I don't accept aging as I can see the results for myself from her methods as well as bio identical creams.
Where did you get the creams from? I have tried to find them, there are some progesterone but not Estriol. I am on the patch but maybe I need to up the dosage.  My skin keeps getting worse and I am having a meltdown over it.
Avatar universal
I would have to say menopause is creeping up on you real fast, I'm 60 years old & a year into menopause, yes waited until I was 60 but within a year my body has gone through hell & I don't look the same my arms have lost all muscle & replaced with wrinkles, I would have never believed it but you are in the menopause age range, hard fact to face, I was going to try to exercise but you sad you didn't have much luck I've always had good arms for a female but menopause has zapped it right from me, when I was 44 I looked 24 unbelievable what menopause did to me, if you find an answer please share, I'm at the point where I'm so disgusted & going outside in the warm weather wearing short sleeves is unreal, I feel people are staring at me saying wonder what is wrong with her, menopause was horrible worse than I thought, although I'm feeling better a year later my arms are still the same so I'm thinking I'll just have to live with it but I'm still very thankful I'm still able to get around, thought maybe my RA has something to do with it also, Good Luck
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1 Comments
i know this is years later but thank God other women go through this. Im 57 and in the last year my legs have MELTED and my upper arms! honestly my legs were always good, quite muscular and no cellulite and my arms have never worried me. All of a sudden I am an old woman. Im very depressed about it. Did you find any solution? i walk everywhere as i dont drive, at least 12,000 steps a day. what a waste.
Avatar universal
Wouldn't it be great if someone invented heat-shrink for the skin? All loose skin could be shrunk to fit around the muscle just like the plastic film on windows...the inventor would be a billionaire overnight...
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wydlynn, They do have some type of stockings that look shiny and make a 80 year olds legs look tight and young. I don't know what they are but they are see through and almost look natural if they weren't a bit shiny.
mkh9
Avatar universal
I wount be able to say anything about your skin but about the bulging veins I think it resulted from carrying objects that are too heavy or doing activities that are too strenuous. For corrections do mild exercises only.
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2 Comments
Well, I am a weight lifter (lift about 75 lbs (dead lift) and overhead press about 30 so far and farmers carry about two 22.5 lb weights. I can squat with about 70 lbs too with a bar on my back. I have had any problems with bulging veins. I weight about 125 lbs. I think it is a fallacy that lifting too much weight will cause vein problems especially if you train for it. I am 54. My husband and I got some loose skin right after we lost 20 lbs each over 6 months. We changed to a low fat vegan diet and since we are  not young our skin doesn't spring back  like it did when we were young. Others taht we talked to on the same diet had the same issues but they lost a lot more weight. So that is our story.
mkh9
Dr. Eric Berg says a low fat diet is pro-aging, we need saturated fats.
I don't skimp on the butter, myself.  Look pretty young for my age and I am older than most here.
But there are many pieces of the anti-aging puzzle!
Avatar universal
Has anyone has tried derma roller? Any success? If so how often to use?
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Avatar universal
ALSO...

My hormone levels are all totally normal - not even close to menopause levels.
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Avatar universal
I should have said how much I weigh.  I was 138 and 5'7" before all the stress began, about 10 pounds over my usual weight.  I lost the first 10 using a fitness app to count calories and noticed nothing. I lost the next 10 due to stress and maybe 5 months after that loss started to notice the veins and the crepeiness. It did not happen right away.  I am now about 118.
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2 Comments
Sounds like a lot of us had a lot of weight loss when this happened. So that may be the cause of some of our weight loss. I know that is the cause of the saggy skin or chicken skin that some people on our diet plan have too that lost 20 lbs or more. Since my husband has it too it isn't just menopause in all cases. So I'm pretty sure that is the case in all of us that lost weight. I think that the skin takes time to bounce back but it can. I am actually trying to gain a few pounds back (not too many but few) just to see if it helps.
mkh9
Also, for those of you that might want to lift weights. I am trying to "bulk " out on my legs and see if that will help. LOL I would rather be muscular than have saggy skin.
mkh9
Avatar universal
Hi people. Add me to bandwagon. I am 48 and very fit.  I had some VERY stressful life events last fall, lost 20 pounds.  I still have period. Blond, thin, have sunned in youth. My arms and hands got crepey suddenly over a few months time. And veiny.  I get that my low body fat might cause veiny but why so sudden.

I am trying gelatin and dry brushing. It's really freaking me out.
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3 Comments
The common denominator is stress and hormones out of wack. count  me in too, Im 46 and noticed over the summer that my hands went from being pretty  to veiny and total loss of volume. That and meds seem to take thier toll. I was hopeing for a cure too but it *****, I just hope I can hold on to what I havefor a bit! My hormones are out of wack due to stress and I dont have a thyroid
I also have this problem only I am 40 now and have a premature menopause. Could hormones do this to your body. My hands have become wrinkly and all the volume is gone??? I cannot balance my hormones and dr. have no idea. I have hrt patches but it doesn't do a thing for my skin and most of my symptoms.
dvdm08 - Yes, loss of hormones can cause skin aging as well as aging of all tissues and organs. My female organs were needlessly removed at age 49 and I aged 10-15 years in just 4 months! And that's just the tip of the iceberg on the nightmare it's been.

Hormones have not improved the skin aging but they have helped most of my other symptoms. And they may be keeping the skin aging from worsening IDK. I only take estrogen.

I did not do well on the patch even at the highest dose. My symptoms were still horrendous despite what my doctor called a "therapeutic" blood level of estradiol. I think it was dropping too much when I was due to change it. Maybe a different delivery route would work better for you. Of course, if you have your uterus, you'll need to take a progestogen.
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