its wrong if you ask me to circumcise a child... i got done at birth, is it not my right to make the decision myself?????
how can anyone have the right to mess with a persons body without permission...
anyone agree or disagree?
ps does anyone know if you can restore your forskin, or has anyone tried it?
as mentioned have no issue with circumcision, just have an issue that the decision is made by parents, they have no right to alter a baby without the baby's permission. even for religous purposes, what if that baby wants to be another religion??
i just don't understand why the hell anyone would go butcher a baby (unless for medical reasons of course)
thanks for the sites though, i have looked into many things, i can't afford anything right now, don't even have a job as i can't work due to a hernia how fun!!!!
No, it seems weird to me too... my ambivalence is mostly due to my not having been circ.d. But you'd be surprised, perhaps, with the American attitude towards it. You hear in movies & stuff, for instance, the movie "Hostel," a pretty stupid but entertaining horror movie about some American kids who go on a trip to Europe looking to get laid. They meet up with this dude from Iceland, and there is a scene where they're all in a sauna and Mr Iceland takes off his towel, and one of the Americans say, "No, I'm AMERICAN, unlike him, I was circumcized at birth... for reasons of hygiene." It is a very common attitude down there, and I think something like more than 50% of Americans are circumcized... in porn movies, too, everyone is circumcized...
hi guys i agree it should be a personal or medical option really . it is not even any more hygenic as long as its cleaned well either way ,and to be fair porn stars only bother because they think it looks bigger ! we dont circ here unless necassary but i do know people who had it done for phimosis and curvature . but as a religous option i think it should be left to the child if they choose to . x x
I'm circumcised and quite honestly I would love to give the doctor who did it a piece of my mind. The only plus I've seen is you last longer but quite honestly after a couple of hours your just doing technique, your partner has done whatever she's going to do and drying up...
From what I think it's barbaric and horrible to due to a person and I think it's a way to maim, brutalize and symbolically take the virginity and innocence of young boys. The religious argument doesn't evev hold for Jewish circomcision because originally they just took the tip of the foreskin!
Hmm... this is interesting to hear these opinions. As I said, I have only ever heard good things about circumcision, and have often been made to feel weird and bad (when I was younger) among people who were circumcized. Most of the males in my family were circumcized, too, and I almost was when I was about 10, put kicked up such a fuss at the though of them cutting me that they backed off.
No good complaing about being being cut, when is gone its gone.
Yep I lost my foreskin at birth, not much I can do about it now.
Like most people that have been cut I wish I had not have been.
Like most that have had sores and smelly stuff under the forskin they wish they had have been.
Its like I have a big one or I have a small one debate, we got what we got. just be happy we got something.
i've got a better question for you all: WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH? its not like having/not having your foreskin is going to seriously alter your ability to have sex, cause descrimination or inhibit you from living a normal life. i mean, i'm circumsized, and its not barbaric at all. its not like they drag it out, and try to inflict as much suffering as they possibly can!
the foreskin has no major purpose to the body, so why villainize people who have it removed, when it has no major benefits in the first place?! its like the appendix! if what you're all saying is true, then u have to outlaw the removal of the appendix, even if it starts to rupture!
and in case u've got any questions on the American perspective of things, you can feel free to ask me; i'm one afterall, and i'd be happy to enlighten you on why we Americans do the crazy things we do.
If you havent got a foreskin you dont miss it, seems there are thousands of young African male babies getting circumcised in an effort to reduce HIV, they have found out that men that have not been circumcised are more prone to recieving the HIV virus.
Only slightly more prone. Those are also people in a country with a scarcity of water, limited birth control (prophylactic use), and the belief that having sex with a virgin cures you of STD's. In other words you are quoting the exception, not the norm.
I absolutely agree with you. I usually get shot down on the child related forums for voicing my opinion that a baby boy is to be protected from all this butchering until he can make his own decision. There is a whole history behind why circumcision is so common still in North America. It goes back to the Victorian ages when it was to prevent early masturbation and since that has not been a good argument anymore this century, hygienic reasons, possible phimosis and possible cervial cancer of the partner were all dug up as medical b.s. indications. It`s a huge money maker, those circumcisions. But even the Association of Pediatrics has revised their earlier statements and advises against ROUTINE circumcision. So the main reason it is still happening here is that parents are uneducated and doctors rather perform some surgery than not. I am always appalled when mothers still think that circumcision is an automatic procedure after their boy is born, like getting a hair cut or something harmless. Or if dads demand their baby sons should look like them. Ouch. Madness. Anyway, there is a group called nocirc - we can't advertise here - so just add the www and the .com. Check them out - I am in contact with one of their founders once in a while. They are UK based. And they provide lots of information and contacts, even regarding restoration of foreskin. When someone goes through foreskin restoration, the main thing is usually that he wants the nerves and the feeling back in that area. Whether it can be done depends on how much was removed during circumcision. I`m not a guy but I heard that the saddest part of circumcision is that the man loses a lot of sensation as there are so many nerve endings. Of course if it is all done in infancy, men would never know the difference. So go ahead and look up that website.
I just have to add this one for fun: There`s a movie named "Fargo". In it two young females, the ex-cheerleader type, are questioned by police whether they can give a description of two suspects they hooked up with in a motel room. One girl says: "One looked like... and the other one was kind of funny looking." Police woman: "What do you mean by that?" Girl: "Kinda funny, you know. He wasn`t circumcized." Yep, madness is everywhere....
That Fargo example is a another perfect example of the American attitude towards circumcision, note how the police detective says, "Anything else funny looking about him? I mean apart from being uncircumcized." Very funny flick, too, I just saw it a few nights ago again. Yeah? Oh, gosh yeah...
but whats all the hostitlity towards it about? (1) it doesn't make a major difference whether you have your foreskin or not (2) any so-called "researched" links between circumcision and cancer or AIDs is a bunch of bologna, and (3) parents are usually the ones who make the decision, so why is it their fault? my father had me circumsized so i looked the same as him, and there were no odd questions that had to be answered until i was of the right age. that seems like a legitimate reasons, for me
Well, I personally am ambivalent, as stated above; Blueeyedboy and SeriousSam, on the other hand, seem to have issues with it: they both claim to have lost sensitivity, and wish they had it back. Both seem to be pretty passionately against it as a common practice.
for starters anyone who says that the forskin holds no use, then why the hell are we born with it, if its a harmless piece of skin then why chop it off.
as mentioned like apendix, it was actually used during the dark ages when we ate meat raw, it provided an enzime to break the food down, as we now cook our meat its no longer used and can get blocked and infected hence requiring an operation, but do we chop babies open at birth to cut it out?? i think not, that would be un-required surgery, and what about our tonsils, why not chop them out too, and our ears, ok so ears are great and used as a kind of radar for sounds but like the forskin its a useless bit of skin if we only lose a bit of sensativity in our penis or sound in our hearing.
you say why worry about it, i am not worried about it there is nothing i can do, i just feel violated that my rights as a human have been tampered with, if its a situation that is out of my controll or i get myself into then its my own fault, but to go doing things like that to babies before they even know whats going on is wrong.
as for hygene, if someone has a smelly crusty or disgusting penis, try washing it....
as for the reduction of HIV in povery countries, yes it is proven that circumcision is helpfull for the reduction of STD's, but as mentioned before these are poor countries with no birth controll, if we as humans in semi welll off countries can not controll our own sex drive and the spread of disease then maybe we should not be allowed to have sex.....
circumcision is great for those that love it and agree with it, as mentioned before i have no issues if it was for medical purposes or if you decide to have it done.
i don't belive that enough people get their penis's checked enough for tight forskin etc etc, i was always under the impression that boys of 13/14 always got checked who were not cut, would make more sense to educate them to look after themselves wouldn't it......
that way people could be normal and not have their bodies tampered with without their permission....
This circumcision debate has been going on for years, its like a dog chasing its tail.
Even in my own family there have been heated arguments about it, my brother has his forskin and I dont, I could not care less if he had his big brainless head covered with foreskin, might make an improvement to his whiskery face.
The way I see it if it was good enough for JC to be circumcised its good enough for me. I see no point whatsoever to complain about loosing a foreskin. I lost mine 64 years ago, I sure dont miss it now, as a matter of fact I had to get circumcised, I could not pee out of my penis, rather than drown in my own urine I have my Mum and Dad to thank for me being able to take a pee.
I think some folks just like to have something to complain about, the bottom of the barrel is being scraped out when the only thing to complain about is your penis.
Actually the operation "JC" would have had was less invasive since it would have required taking less foreskin. Plus JC was a Nazarene and many of the beliefs the held were considered heretical so he he may not even have been circumcised,
i feel the same as newdude, i'm indifferent to circumcised or not. i do see quite a couple points bring brought up though, that show why this is a big deal. first, the movie examples just show yet another way the Hollywood distorts the truth and makes people who feel bad about themselves because they may not be the "same as everyone else" which is garbage.
second, i think because of the amout of information out there today on the internet and whatnot, we get a lot of conflicting stuff, that confuses us until we can't decide for ourselves, and then we just go along with another group who feel the same way, and try to fit in.
but i really never gave this a lot of thought. in fact, i wasn't even aware that it was a hot topic of discussion in world. mostly cuz talking about one's genitals is kinduv taboo here, and not as open in other parts of the world, i suppose.
but to give some related info on the foreskin restoration topic, it is possible. since this discussion started, i've read up on it, and it appears that they reopen the circumcized region, and then pull the collapsed foreskin back up until it, quote, "resembles the original foreskin." im not sure if that means it only looks the same, and doesn't function, but im sure it can't be one or the other.
The argument of cutting a child so that they look more like their father doesn't carry a whole lot of weight does it?
I mean if we are going to do that why not come up with pediatric hair dye and plastic surgery! Hell we could just make a whole generation of Elvises and Brittney Spears! Or better yet let's just rescind the laws prohibiting cloning research laws
dude, that so-called "argument," was my father's decision for me, and its a perfectly logical one. and if ur gonna try to discredit this one with one of your crazy unrelated topics, i'd like to request some items to appear in that explanation: UFOs, Big Foot, crop circles, and mermaids, please.
plus, circumcision isn't some plot or conspiracy to make all the people of the world the same. now u've convinced me you feel a little TOO strongly about this, cuz its starting to blur ur logical reasoning skills. ALSO, you can't outlaw it, because that in itself would be against the rights of the people. a person/group/family can alter their bodies for religious or cultural purposes, and the law cannot infringe upon that right. if a father wants his child to be the same as him, he as the right as the parent to make that decision because until the son reaches the LEGAL AGE, he cannot make the decision for himself, he needs a parent or guardian. so if you want someone to place the blame on -- as sad as i am to say this -- blame your father, cuz more often than not, it was his decision.
That`s exactly the point. If it is the father`s or the mother`s right to make that decision, they better become more educated and empathetic. At least educated about options to make informed decisions.
I just thought of a very personal example, kind of odd to write about on the men`s forum - but anyway. My own mother feels that the whole period, pregnancy and childbearing cycle in a female`s life is nothing but a burden, so since my mid-twenties she keeps suggesting I should get a hysterectomy - removal of uterus - for no other reason than to stop periods or avoid future cancer. None of this has ever been a burden to me, the uterus is a rather pleasurable organ. Were hysterectomies something done during infancy, my mother would have been the first one to jump on that band wagon. And it would have given my life a twist and a shade that I would deeply regret.
In a similar way circumcision requires more thought than just a haircut, see my comments above.
I'm sorry for anyone who was cut and regrets it, maybe it will change for the future generations... as tlh777 said, the movement to ban circ. is growing in Europe and elsewhere.
But this thread is bloody hilarious... I just can't help laughing at some of the comments... not to belittle the seriousness of the issue being discussed, but these threads have a funny way of snowballing into hilarity.
mr room i use to sleep in was haunted i think, i use to see faces and outlines of bodies all the time, even had a black lady lying on the bed next to me once....this sounds stupid but its what i saw, not sure if i hellucinate in my sleep or not, but i use to turn the lights on and they would go but then turn them off again and they would still be there......
still not right to circumcise kids hehehehe, there is no logical reason for it, no one can defend it to be right, of course as mentioned unless its for medical reasons, and i don't care if the parent has the say or not, if a parent wanted to cut a kids legs off is it allowed????
funny topic you may say but its something that really gets to me bad, so disappointed that i have been cut. i know you say get over it but hey its a deformity i have to live with due to a stupid decision by my parents...
i also believe i can remeber being circumcised as a baby
i have never mentioned that to anyone but i do remember it, i have no idea how old i was but i remember it.....
and was embarresed when my mum took my nappy off to show her friend my penis...i was in my pram...
and they say babies don't remember..maybe we just block out the pain of what we had to go through...
The pain is actually greater they say for a new born to be circumcised than it is for an adult, particularly as in an infant they are LESS likely to use an anasthetic, That having been said why can't they outlaw it until the age of consent? Isn't that what they do with female circumcision in all of its horrid variations?
the exact reason they do it during infancy is so that the child DOESN'T remember it. something happens to our memories that dumps everything from a certain point (like around 5-7) back to birth, so in fact the child never remembers the event, and that's that.
as for the age of consent, i already told u, you cannot prohibit people from doing something that is part of their culture/religion because it impresses on their rights (the Aboriginals circumstances were banned because they were a little brash, unlike modern technology goes). thus, until the child reaches the age of consent, its up to the parents to decide, because by law, they are allowed to make that decision for you. as for that whole incredulous leg-removal comment, u'd have to have one effin derranged parent to want their leg removed. i myself not being a lawyer, i cannot tell you all the bylaws, loopholes, circumstances and clauses in the system that determine that outcome. i'm also quite sure a doctor can refuse to perform such a task when they can see nothing is wrong with the child's leg, and may recommend them to counciling or report them to child protective services.
and what do u mean, trailanderror? parent's aren't educated? r u saying that my parents' decision wasn't educated? that it was foolish and pure folly? cuz ur insulting my parents -- on purpose, or not -- and that i won't stand for.
Where are you getting your information? Yes you can ban religious behaviors. Where are the snake handler's and the thuggee cults? Rastafarian pot smoking? Multiple wives (Islam, or Mormonism). Female circumcision of minors?
And the brain dumps information? Do you have any behavioral science background at all? look a little bit of stuff up on children and trauma.
BTW I am not sure what insults your imagining but you do realize your getting belligerent with people you don't know? kind of silly if you think about it. what are you going do to fill the forums verbal beatings?
No, I`m sure if neither you or your parents regret anything, all is well and they made just the right decision. My focus is not on circumcision that already occured but to encourage future parents to become aware of all the options, implications and historical, religious or medical background of circumcision instead of just following traditions.
and ur one to talk Sam? personally, i don't think this topic even deserves such a heated debate. it should be completely up to the people to decide, and that's that. no banning, no laws, no regrets. totally a personal, family decision.
and u really think that snake handling isn't still around? i'm not sure which "thuggee cult" ur pointing to, but i'm sue i would agree w/ u on that instance. Rastafarianism is a ridiculous excuse for the consumption of pot, and thus its not a "real" religion. multiple wives in Islam is still common practice in regions of the Middle East, and the Mormon tradition was stamped out when a government run by conservative Christians with completely different morals decided to put an end to its "nonconformity." female circumcision often leads to death, thus it is deemed something harmful, thus its prohibition. male circumcision rarely results in deaths, with 1 death in every 1,000,000 procedures, often because it was performed by someone not licensed to perform it (stated by wikipedia.org who has an interesting article outlining just about everything stated so far in this discussion). as for all of the above, the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights states the state has "no right to prohibit the free exercise of a religion,” and a clause later states, “unless the religion’s doctrine conflicts with secular law;” hence, no Rastafarianism and no polygamy.
and the brain DOES dump information. i just read it in National Geographic, who i'm SURE does extensive background checks on its information before its publication. if u want to follow it up, look at the November 2007 issue, page 43, in the heading titled "Forgetting." and i quote, "most people have no memory of experiences before the age of three or four, a phenomenon know as 'childhood amnesia,' perhaps because the brain is not fully developed yet." (my original estimate of 7 or so was off, sorry) hence why we can’t remember our early childhoods.
and i apologize to TrialandError for my insolence earlier. her comment was perceived as stating my parents were uneducated and unempathetic in their decision -- which is definitely not the case. i do however, believe that there are a ton of very good arguments for both sides, a lot of conflicting/hazy data that can support and discredit both sides at once out there, and a deadlock for each side’s case. i think this one has to be left up to the people, cuz there is no solution that will appease both sides without upsetting the other.
but i feel people who get this upset over it need to calm down a little, and not get so worked up over it. just get the procedure done, and take it smoothly, not forming angry protests against it and trying to force others into making the same decision as they do, cuz thats unfair to the other side. i think everybody should keep it a personal-family issue, and not make such a public display out it. i just hate it when people are angry over each others' beliefs... it makes me feel uncomfortable, lol
Memory dumping in the context that you are using does not mean that memories are not regulated to the subconcious where they still do damage. And I would be more impressed had you quoted a professional journal.
See the following articles:
"Nightmares in children: Influencing factors"
"Investigative Interviews of Children: A Review of Psychological Research and Implications for Police Practices"
"Self-Reported Amnesia for Abuse in Adults Molested as Children’"
" Childhood amnesia in children and adolescents: Their earliest memories"
Investigations of childhood amnesia have almost exclusively focused on the earliest memories of adults. Here we investigate the earliest memories of children of 6–19 years old. Parents confirmed the memory events and dated the memories. There were surprisingly few developmental differences between the earliest memories of children. Although 6–9-year-olds recalled earlier events than did older children, there were no differences between older age groups. Memories from all age groups were similar in structure, social orientation, and the nature of the recalled event. However, memories of older children were more likely to involve negative affect. There were also few gender differences, although girls were more likely to recall traumatic or transitional events while boys were more likely to recall play events. Overall, results deepen the paradox of early memory: 6–9-year-olds have verbally accessible memories from very early childhood that then seem to disappear as they get older.
Regarding female circumcision? Check labiaplasty, the results for circumcision I believe are about the same so far as fatalities.
However any stats regarding female circumcision would be inaccurate because the stats you are quoting;
One do not have a listed source.
Two were performed by non-physicians.
Three are largely illegal in the US.
BTW: On the amnesia? Double check and I think you will find where the children have more active and varied experiences and interactions with adults that their is a correlation between having more intelligent children with earlier ACCESSIBLE memories.
The Memories still exist either in the conscious or subconscious but they still exist.
Might I suggest you concentrate more on the writings in the Lancet, AMA, AMPA, or other reputable scientific journals rather the popularism type magazines?
Hmmm So religious practices are OK so long as they are your own? Just wondering.
My husband is Asian and is not circumscised. I like it so much better. He also has more sensation because of the fact he is intact. I think it is barbaric too. If I had a son, I would never have it done.
SeriousSam? more like "Serious-An-*******"Sam sounds more correct. ur a smart ***, rude, pigheaded, militant person. who or what do u think you are? sam the omnipotent? i have no professional background, im sixteen ******* years old. im no psychological doctor, i have no PHD or MD, i'm not an fluent medical science journal reader, i'm only basing my perspective on my own experiences and what i've read, which i'm sure is exactly what you're doing yourself. i'm not saying i'm correct on any of my statements at all. hell, for all i know i could be completely out of my league with this discussion, but u're making me feel like a total *** for challenging your postion, which is not exactly the most polite thing to do. you seem like an educated, fairly reasonable person, so i'm wondering why you are proverbially ripping my perspective to shreds. i may have gotten snippy with you, but what u just did was like taking a shotgun to my face. i only wish you could have been a little less harsh, and not been so offensive in the way you brushed my opinion aside like a mere nuisance to you. i respect your position, but you've shown none of that in return to mine.
please, don't call NGM a "popularism" type magazine, when i think a person such as yourself with an appreciation of knowledge would enjoy some of information that it contains. not ONCE did i say that religious practices are okay as long as they're my own. if so, i'd like you to show me exactly where i stated those exact words. but my source of information was wikipedia.org, which i admit is known for its proneness to vandalism, so i can't say for sure how accurate the information in it is. if you wish to see for yourself look up the article on circumcision, cuz it basically outlines everything from this thread. but im curious, r u urself a doctor?
Actually when you get into college you'll find you can'y use National Geographic as a source for the very reason that I stated.
I am sorry that you feel that I ran over you, however in America we perform this operation on millions of children and then make excuses for why we do it. And actually if at any time you had mentioned you were just a kid I probably would have toned the discussion down somewhat and been gentler on you. I would of course have still had the same view.
Basically the two reasons given to do circumcision seem to be fantasy (religion) and tradition (dad was mangled too).
These do not seem to be good reasons to do surgery on a child anymore than knocking a child out.
I really wish they made children state their ages. It is like that young girl on the relationships forum. I would die if my sixteen year old wrote on there about what she did
I also think children should be restricted to certain topics. Kids do not need to be reading "adult" conversations.
sam, you're absolutely right. we Americans do make TONS of excuses for things, and you're points do sway me to your side. i don't regret being circumcised, but i do feel that i'll leave my future son uncircumcised so that he may choose when the time is right for him. which when stated like that, does seem like the type of thing a good father would do. thats not to say that i hold any anger towards my father (or anyone's who had it done), cuz he (they) weren't aware of all the sides, and thought it was best for me (us). and i do agree, religion and tradition are two HUGE fantasies, (plus i'm not much of a supporter of either) and anyone who is a firm believer in either is probably just stubborn/dilluded. and i apologize for my vulgar tongue-lashing i gave earlier. that was classless. sry.
The Majority of people that complain state not to BAN it altogether but to ban it happening to PEOPLE that are not able to give "informed consent" The baby can not give it so it should NOT be done FOR ANY reason untill the actual child is 18 (in my area) of consent .... then he wants to cut it off so be it that way for us guys that were MUTILATED wouldnt have to go through this TORCHER just cause i cant remember it doesnt mean i dont SUFFER the conseqences .... let me give u anastesia u wont remember a thing but what ever happens during that time you will have to suffer with .... THE PARENTS dont have PROPERTY they have a child a gift and if it was my "religion" to circumcise my daughter you would all have a fit ! BUT that would interfere with my "religious" choice. leave you sons penis alone STOP telling men that feel Mutliated or raped etc to just deal with it...... you need to deal with it that men can actually have and express feelings ..... YOU DEAL WITH IT .....
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