Aa
circumcision is barbaric
its wrong if you ask me to circumcise a child... i got done at birth, is it not my right to make the decision myself?????
how can anyone have the right to mess with a persons body without permission...
anyone agree or disagree?
ps does anyone know if you can restore your forskin, or has anyone tried it?
how can anyone have the right to mess with a persons body without permission...
anyone agree or disagree?
ps does anyone know if you can restore your forskin, or has anyone tried it?
The Majority of people that complain state not to BAN it altogether but to ban it happening to PEOPLE that are not able to give "informed consent" The baby can not give it so it should NOT be done FOR ANY reason untill the actual child is 18 (in my area) of consent .... then he wants to cut it off so be it that way for us guys that were MUTILATED wouldnt have to go through this TORCHER just cause i cant remember it doesnt mean i dont SUFFER the conseqences .... let me give u anastesia u wont remember a thing but what ever happens during that time you will have to suffer with .... THE PARENTS dont have PROPERTY they have a child a gift and if it was my "religion" to circumcise my daughter you would all have a fit ! BUT that would interfere with my "religious" choice. leave you sons penis alone STOP telling men that feel Mutliated or raped etc to just deal with it...... you need to deal with it that men can actually have and express feelings ..... YOU DEAL WITH IT .....
Scarily I just got approved through work to get my education paid for the rest of the way (tuition at least) to be a psychologist.
sam, you're absolutely right. we Americans do make TONS of excuses for things, and you're points do sway me to your side. i don't regret being circumcised, but i do feel that i'll leave my future son uncircumcised so that he may choose when the time is right for him. which when stated like that, does seem like the type of thing a good father would do. thats not to say that i hold any anger towards my father (or anyone's who had it done), cuz he (they) weren't aware of all the sides, and thought it was best for me (us). and i do agree, religion and tradition are two HUGE fantasies, (plus i'm not much of a supporter of either) and anyone who is a firm believer in either is probably just stubborn/dilluded. and i apologize for my vulgar tongue-lashing i gave earlier. that was classless. sry.
I really wish they made children state their ages. It is like that young girl on the relationships forum. I would die if my sixteen year old wrote on there about what she did
I also think children should be restricted to certain topics. Kids do not need to be reading "adult" conversations.
I also think children should be restricted to certain topics. Kids do not need to be reading "adult" conversations.
Actually when you get into college you'll find you can'y use National Geographic as a source for the very reason that I stated.
I am sorry that you feel that I ran over you, however in America we perform this operation on millions of children and then make excuses for why we do it. And actually if at any time you had mentioned you were just a kid I probably would have toned the discussion down somewhat and been gentler on you. I would of course have still had the same view.
Basically the two reasons given to do circumcision seem to be fantasy (religion) and tradition (dad was mangled too).
These do not seem to be good reasons to do surgery on a child anymore than knocking a child out.
I am sorry that you feel that I ran over you, however in America we perform this operation on millions of children and then make excuses for why we do it. And actually if at any time you had mentioned you were just a kid I probably would have toned the discussion down somewhat and been gentler on you. I would of course have still had the same view.
Basically the two reasons given to do circumcision seem to be fantasy (religion) and tradition (dad was mangled too).
These do not seem to be good reasons to do surgery on a child anymore than knocking a child out.
SeriousSam? more like "Serious-An-*******"Sam sounds more correct. ur a smart ***, rude, pigheaded, militant person. who or what do u think you are? sam the omnipotent? i have no professional background, im sixteen ******* years old. im no psychological doctor, i have no PHD or MD, i'm not an fluent medical science journal reader, i'm only basing my perspective on my own experiences and what i've read, which i'm sure is exactly what you're doing yourself. i'm not saying i'm correct on any of my statements at all. hell, for all i know i could be completely out of my league with this discussion, but u're making me feel like a total *** for challenging your postion, which is not exactly the most polite thing to do. you seem like an educated, fairly reasonable person, so i'm wondering why you are proverbially ripping my perspective to shreds. i may have gotten snippy with you, but what u just did was like taking a shotgun to my face. i only wish you could have been a little less harsh, and not been so offensive in the way you brushed my opinion aside like a mere nuisance to you. i respect your position, but you've shown none of that in return to mine.
please, don't call NGM a "popularism" type magazine, when i think a person such as yourself with an appreciation of knowledge would enjoy some of information that it contains. not ONCE did i say that religious practices are okay as long as they're my own. if so, i'd like you to show me exactly where i stated those exact words. but my source of information was wikipedia.org, which i admit is known for its proneness to vandalism, so i can't say for sure how accurate the information in it is. if you wish to see for yourself look up the article on circumcision, cuz it basically outlines everything from this thread. but im curious, r u urself a doctor?
please, don't call NGM a "popularism" type magazine, when i think a person such as yourself with an appreciation of knowledge would enjoy some of information that it contains. not ONCE did i say that religious practices are okay as long as they're my own. if so, i'd like you to show me exactly where i stated those exact words. but my source of information was wikipedia.org, which i admit is known for its proneness to vandalism, so i can't say for sure how accurate the information in it is. if you wish to see for yourself look up the article on circumcision, cuz it basically outlines everything from this thread. but im curious, r u urself a doctor?
My husband is Asian and is not circumscised. I like it so much better. He also has more sensation because of the fact he is intact. I think it is barbaric too. If I had a son, I would never have it done.
Regarding female circumcision? Check labiaplasty, the results for circumcision I believe are about the same so far as fatalities.
However any stats regarding female circumcision would be inaccurate because the stats you are quoting;
One do not have a listed source.
Two were performed by non-physicians.
Three are largely illegal in the US.
BTW: On the amnesia? Double check and I think you will find where the children have more active and varied experiences and interactions with adults that their is a correlation between having more intelligent children with earlier ACCESSIBLE memories.
The Memories still exist either in the conscious or subconscious but they still exist.
Might I suggest you concentrate more on the writings in the Lancet, AMA, AMPA, or other reputable scientific journals rather the popularism type magazines?
Hmmm So religious practices are OK so long as they are your own? Just wondering.
BTW What is your work/education background?
However any stats regarding female circumcision would be inaccurate because the stats you are quoting;
One do not have a listed source.
Two were performed by non-physicians.
Three are largely illegal in the US.
BTW: On the amnesia? Double check and I think you will find where the children have more active and varied experiences and interactions with adults that their is a correlation between having more intelligent children with earlier ACCESSIBLE memories.
The Memories still exist either in the conscious or subconscious but they still exist.
Might I suggest you concentrate more on the writings in the Lancet, AMA, AMPA, or other reputable scientific journals rather the popularism type magazines?
Hmmm So religious practices are OK so long as they are your own? Just wondering.
BTW What is your work/education background?
Memory dumping in the context that you are using does not mean that memories are not regulated to the subconcious where they still do damage. And I would be more impressed had you quoted a professional journal.
See the following articles:
"Nightmares in children: Influencing factors"
"Investigative Interviews of Children: A Review of Psychological Research and Implications for Police Practices"
"Self-Reported Amnesia for Abuse in Adults Molested as Children’"
or
" Childhood amnesia in children and adolescents: Their earliest memories"
Investigations of childhood amnesia have almost exclusively focused on the earliest memories of adults. Here we investigate the earliest memories of children of 6–19 years old. Parents confirmed the memory events and dated the memories. There were surprisingly few developmental differences between the earliest memories of children. Although 6–9-year-olds recalled earlier events than did older children, there were no differences between older age groups. Memories from all age groups were similar in structure, social orientation, and the nature of the recalled event. However, memories of older children were more likely to involve negative affect. There were also few gender differences, although girls were more likely to recall traumatic or transitional events while boys were more likely to recall play events. Overall, results deepen the paradox of early memory: 6–9-year-olds have verbally accessible memories from very early childhood that then seem to disappear as they get older.
See the following articles:
"Nightmares in children: Influencing factors"
"Investigative Interviews of Children: A Review of Psychological Research and Implications for Police Practices"
"Self-Reported Amnesia for Abuse in Adults Molested as Children’"
or
" Childhood amnesia in children and adolescents: Their earliest memories"
Investigations of childhood amnesia have almost exclusively focused on the earliest memories of adults. Here we investigate the earliest memories of children of 6–19 years old. Parents confirmed the memory events and dated the memories. There were surprisingly few developmental differences between the earliest memories of children. Although 6–9-year-olds recalled earlier events than did older children, there were no differences between older age groups. Memories from all age groups were similar in structure, social orientation, and the nature of the recalled event. However, memories of older children were more likely to involve negative affect. There were also few gender differences, although girls were more likely to recall traumatic or transitional events while boys were more likely to recall play events. Overall, results deepen the paradox of early memory: 6–9-year-olds have verbally accessible memories from very early childhood that then seem to disappear as they get older.
and ur one to talk Sam? personally, i don't think this topic even deserves such a heated debate. it should be completely up to the people to decide, and that's that. no banning, no laws, no regrets. totally a personal, family decision.
and u really think that snake handling isn't still around? i'm not sure which "thuggee cult" ur pointing to, but i'm sue i would agree w/ u on that instance. Rastafarianism is a ridiculous excuse for the consumption of pot, and thus its not a "real" religion. multiple wives in Islam is still common practice in regions of the Middle East, and the Mormon tradition was stamped out when a government run by conservative Christians with completely different morals decided to put an end to its "nonconformity." female circumcision often leads to death, thus it is deemed something harmful, thus its prohibition. male circumcision rarely results in deaths, with 1 death in every 1,000,000 procedures, often because it was performed by someone not licensed to perform it (stated by wikipedia.org who has an interesting article outlining just about everything stated so far in this discussion). as for all of the above, the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights states the state has "no right to prohibit the free exercise of a religion,” and a clause later states, “unless the religion’s doctrine conflicts with secular law;” hence, no Rastafarianism and no polygamy.
and the brain DOES dump information. i just read it in National Geographic, who i'm SURE does extensive background checks on its information before its publication. if u want to follow it up, look at the November 2007 issue, page 43, in the heading titled "Forgetting." and i quote, "most people have no memory of experiences before the age of three or four, a phenomenon know as 'childhood amnesia,' perhaps because the brain is not fully developed yet." (my original estimate of 7 or so was off, sorry) hence why we can’t remember our early childhoods.
and i apologize to TrialandError for my insolence earlier. her comment was perceived as stating my parents were uneducated and unempathetic in their decision -- which is definitely not the case. i do however, believe that there are a ton of very good arguments for both sides, a lot of conflicting/hazy data that can support and discredit both sides at once out there, and a deadlock for each side’s case. i think this one has to be left up to the people, cuz there is no solution that will appease both sides without upsetting the other.
but i feel people who get this upset over it need to calm down a little, and not get so worked up over it. just get the procedure done, and take it smoothly, not forming angry protests against it and trying to force others into making the same decision as they do, cuz thats unfair to the other side. i think everybody should keep it a personal-family issue, and not make such a public display out it. i just hate it when people are angry over each others' beliefs... it makes me feel uncomfortable, lol
and u really think that snake handling isn't still around? i'm not sure which "thuggee cult" ur pointing to, but i'm sue i would agree w/ u on that instance. Rastafarianism is a ridiculous excuse for the consumption of pot, and thus its not a "real" religion. multiple wives in Islam is still common practice in regions of the Middle East, and the Mormon tradition was stamped out when a government run by conservative Christians with completely different morals decided to put an end to its "nonconformity." female circumcision often leads to death, thus it is deemed something harmful, thus its prohibition. male circumcision rarely results in deaths, with 1 death in every 1,000,000 procedures, often because it was performed by someone not licensed to perform it (stated by wikipedia.org who has an interesting article outlining just about everything stated so far in this discussion). as for all of the above, the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights states the state has "no right to prohibit the free exercise of a religion,” and a clause later states, “unless the religion’s doctrine conflicts with secular law;” hence, no Rastafarianism and no polygamy.
and the brain DOES dump information. i just read it in National Geographic, who i'm SURE does extensive background checks on its information before its publication. if u want to follow it up, look at the November 2007 issue, page 43, in the heading titled "Forgetting." and i quote, "most people have no memory of experiences before the age of three or four, a phenomenon know as 'childhood amnesia,' perhaps because the brain is not fully developed yet." (my original estimate of 7 or so was off, sorry) hence why we can’t remember our early childhoods.
and i apologize to TrialandError for my insolence earlier. her comment was perceived as stating my parents were uneducated and unempathetic in their decision -- which is definitely not the case. i do however, believe that there are a ton of very good arguments for both sides, a lot of conflicting/hazy data that can support and discredit both sides at once out there, and a deadlock for each side’s case. i think this one has to be left up to the people, cuz there is no solution that will appease both sides without upsetting the other.
but i feel people who get this upset over it need to calm down a little, and not get so worked up over it. just get the procedure done, and take it smoothly, not forming angry protests against it and trying to force others into making the same decision as they do, cuz thats unfair to the other side. i think everybody should keep it a personal-family issue, and not make such a public display out it. i just hate it when people are angry over each others' beliefs... it makes me feel uncomfortable, lol
No, I`m sure if neither you or your parents regret anything, all is well and they made just the right decision. My focus is not on circumcision that already occured but to encourage future parents to become aware of all the options, implications and historical, religious or medical background of circumcision instead of just following traditions.
Where are you getting your information? Yes you can ban religious behaviors. Where are the snake handler's and the thuggee cults? Rastafarian pot smoking? Multiple wives (Islam, or Mormonism). Female circumcision of minors?
And the brain dumps information? Do you have any behavioral science background at all? look a little bit of stuff up on children and trauma.
BTW I am not sure what insults your imagining but you do realize your getting belligerent with people you don't know? kind of silly if you think about it. what are you going do to fill the forums verbal beatings?
And the brain dumps information? Do you have any behavioral science background at all? look a little bit of stuff up on children and trauma.
BTW I am not sure what insults your imagining but you do realize your getting belligerent with people you don't know? kind of silly if you think about it. what are you going do to fill the forums verbal beatings?
and what do u mean, trailanderror? parent's aren't educated? r u saying that my parents' decision wasn't educated? that it was foolish and pure folly? cuz ur insulting my parents -- on purpose, or not -- and that i won't stand for.
the exact reason they do it during infancy is so that the child DOESN'T remember it. something happens to our memories that dumps everything from a certain point (like around 5-7) back to birth, so in fact the child never remembers the event, and that's that.
as for the age of consent, i already told u, you cannot prohibit people from doing something that is part of their culture/religion because it impresses on their rights (the Aboriginals circumstances were banned because they were a little brash, unlike modern technology goes). thus, until the child reaches the age of consent, its up to the parents to decide, because by law, they are allowed to make that decision for you. as for that whole incredulous leg-removal comment, u'd have to have one effin derranged parent to want their leg removed. i myself not being a lawyer, i cannot tell you all the bylaws, loopholes, circumstances and clauses in the system that determine that outcome. i'm also quite sure a doctor can refuse to perform such a task when they can see nothing is wrong with the child's leg, and may recommend them to counciling or report them to child protective services.
as for the age of consent, i already told u, you cannot prohibit people from doing something that is part of their culture/religion because it impresses on their rights (the Aboriginals circumstances were banned because they were a little brash, unlike modern technology goes). thus, until the child reaches the age of consent, its up to the parents to decide, because by law, they are allowed to make that decision for you. as for that whole incredulous leg-removal comment, u'd have to have one effin derranged parent to want their leg removed. i myself not being a lawyer, i cannot tell you all the bylaws, loopholes, circumstances and clauses in the system that determine that outcome. i'm also quite sure a doctor can refuse to perform such a task when they can see nothing is wrong with the child's leg, and may recommend them to counciling or report them to child protective services.
Pain what Pain, our Australian Aboriginals circumcise their young boys by stretching the foreskin over a rock and giving it another whack with a sharpened rock, now thats what I call pain.
You would have to be a good shot or the poor person being circumcised may finish up with a very short penis.
Thankfully the practice has now been banned, to many penises starting to look like a Cobra snakes head.
You would have to be a good shot or the poor person being circumcised may finish up with a very short penis.
Thankfully the practice has now been banned, to many penises starting to look like a Cobra snakes head.
The pain is actually greater they say for a new born to be circumcised than it is for an adult, particularly as in an infant they are LESS likely to use an anasthetic, That having been said why can't they outlaw it until the age of consent? Isn't that what they do with female circumcision in all of its horrid variations?
mr room i use to sleep in was haunted i think, i use to see faces and outlines of bodies all the time, even had a black lady lying on the bed next to me once....this sounds stupid but its what i saw, not sure if i hellucinate in my sleep or not, but i use to turn the lights on and they would go but then turn them off again and they would still be there......
still not right to circumcise kids hehehehe, there is no logical reason for it, no one can defend it to be right, of course as mentioned unless its for medical reasons, and i don't care if the parent has the say or not, if a parent wanted to cut a kids legs off is it allowed????
funny topic you may say but its something that really gets to me bad, so disappointed that i have been cut. i know you say get over it but hey its a deformity i have to live with due to a stupid decision by my parents...
i also believe i can remeber being circumcised as a baby
i have never mentioned that to anyone but i do remember it, i have no idea how old i was but i remember it.....
and was embarresed when my mum took my nappy off to show her friend my penis...i was in my pram...
and they say babies don't remember..maybe we just block out the pain of what we had to go through...
still not right to circumcise kids hehehehe, there is no logical reason for it, no one can defend it to be right, of course as mentioned unless its for medical reasons, and i don't care if the parent has the say or not, if a parent wanted to cut a kids legs off is it allowed????
funny topic you may say but its something that really gets to me bad, so disappointed that i have been cut. i know you say get over it but hey its a deformity i have to live with due to a stupid decision by my parents...
i also believe i can remeber being circumcised as a baby
i have never mentioned that to anyone but i do remember it, i have no idea how old i was but i remember it.....
and was embarresed when my mum took my nappy off to show her friend my penis...i was in my pram...
and they say babies don't remember..maybe we just block out the pain of what we had to go through...
I once saw a UFO, by the way, but never expected anyone to believe me. This just a sidenote.
Of course, I was walking down the road at 4 in the morning after many hours of pot-smoking, but I saw what I saw...
Of course, I was walking down the road at 4 in the morning after many hours of pot-smoking, but I saw what I saw...
I'm sorry for anyone who was cut and regrets it, maybe it will change for the future generations... as tlh777 said, the movement to ban circ. is growing in Europe and elsewhere.
But this thread is bloody hilarious... I just can't help laughing at some of the comments... not to belittle the seriousness of the issue being discussed, but these threads have a funny way of snowballing into hilarity.
But this thread is bloody hilarious... I just can't help laughing at some of the comments... not to belittle the seriousness of the issue being discussed, but these threads have a funny way of snowballing into hilarity.
That`s exactly the point. If it is the father`s or the mother`s right to make that decision, they better become more educated and empathetic. At least educated about options to make informed decisions.
I just thought of a very personal example, kind of odd to write about on the men`s forum - but anyway. My own mother feels that the whole period, pregnancy and childbearing cycle in a female`s life is nothing but a burden, so since my mid-twenties she keeps suggesting I should get a hysterectomy - removal of uterus - for no other reason than to stop periods or avoid future cancer. None of this has ever been a burden to me, the uterus is a rather pleasurable organ. Were hysterectomies something done during infancy, my mother would have been the first one to jump on that band wagon. And it would have given my life a twist and a shade that I would deeply regret.
In a similar way circumcision requires more thought than just a haircut, see my comments above.
I just thought of a very personal example, kind of odd to write about on the men`s forum - but anyway. My own mother feels that the whole period, pregnancy and childbearing cycle in a female`s life is nothing but a burden, so since my mid-twenties she keeps suggesting I should get a hysterectomy - removal of uterus - for no other reason than to stop periods or avoid future cancer. None of this has ever been a burden to me, the uterus is a rather pleasurable organ. Were hysterectomies something done during infancy, my mother would have been the first one to jump on that band wagon. And it would have given my life a twist and a shade that I would deeply regret.
In a similar way circumcision requires more thought than just a haircut, see my comments above.
dude, that so-called "argument," was my father's decision for me, and its a perfectly logical one. and if ur gonna try to discredit this one with one of your crazy unrelated topics, i'd like to request some items to appear in that explanation: UFOs, Big Foot, crop circles, and mermaids, please.
plus, circumcision isn't some plot or conspiracy to make all the people of the world the same. now u've convinced me you feel a little TOO strongly about this, cuz its starting to blur ur logical reasoning skills. ALSO, you can't outlaw it, because that in itself would be against the rights of the people. a person/group/family can alter their bodies for religious or cultural purposes, and the law cannot infringe upon that right. if a father wants his child to be the same as him, he as the right as the parent to make that decision because until the son reaches the LEGAL AGE, he cannot make the decision for himself, he needs a parent or guardian. so if you want someone to place the blame on -- as sad as i am to say this -- blame your father, cuz more often than not, it was his decision.
plus, circumcision isn't some plot or conspiracy to make all the people of the world the same. now u've convinced me you feel a little TOO strongly about this, cuz its starting to blur ur logical reasoning skills. ALSO, you can't outlaw it, because that in itself would be against the rights of the people. a person/group/family can alter their bodies for religious or cultural purposes, and the law cannot infringe upon that right. if a father wants his child to be the same as him, he as the right as the parent to make that decision because until the son reaches the LEGAL AGE, he cannot make the decision for himself, he needs a parent or guardian. so if you want someone to place the blame on -- as sad as i am to say this -- blame your father, cuz more often than not, it was his decision.
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