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Judges look favorably on Obama gun reporting rule
(Reuters) - A federal appeals court signaled on Wednesday it was prepared to uphold a regulation designed to detect the sale of semi-automatic rifles to Mexican drug cartels, one of the few gun control measures put forward so far by the Obama administration.
Gun retailers and manufacturers, including a trade group based in Newtown, Connecticut, scene of the December 14 school massacre, say the rule is burdensome and violates federal law.
It requires stores in the four U.S. states bordering Mexico to send a notice to federal law enforcement whenever someone buys two or more of rifles during any five-day period.
The measure applies only to high-caliber, semi-automatic rifles that can use a detachable magazine.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which regulates gun sales, adopted the rule in 2011 amid rising cartel violence and at the urging of gun control groups for President Barack Obama to act.
Thousands of firearms are thought to cross the border illegally into Mexico each year, and semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines are a favorite of drug traffickers, the ATF said in a report last year.
Mexican authorities recovered more than 68,000 U.S.-sourced guns from 2007 to 2011, the ATF said.
The rule applies to retailers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas who, perhaps without realizing it, could be sources for those firearms.
Gun stores "have to create a new system to keep track of that," Richard Gardiner, a lawyer for retailers Foothills Firearms LLC and J&G Sales Ltd, told the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.
Federal law does not allow law enforcement to require that system, he said, calling it burdensome because store workers do not always know which of the guns they sell are covered.
COURT DOUBTS BURDEN
The court's three judges, though, repeatedly doubted whether the rule creates much additional work.
"I don't remember the record containing any evidence of confusion," said Judge Harry Edwards.
ATF has a special phone number for retailers to call if they have questions, such as whether the rule covers a particular rifle, but few people have called, government lawyer Michael Raab told the court.
"Any dealer worth his salt" should know whether most guns he sells fit the criteria, Raab said, echoing the wording of a lower court judge.
Gardiner responded that evidence of the rule's burden is unnecessary because it is a government overreach.
The court is expected to decide within the next few months.
Gun rights advocates have also argued that the ATF measure could lead to a federal database of guns, which they fear would infringe on their rights. Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have tried to cut off money to enforce the regulation.
The National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade group for gunmakers and a plaintiff in the lawsuit, is based in Newtown, where gunman Adam Lanza killed his mother, 20 children and six school employees before shooting himself in one of the worst U.S. school shootings.
Lower court judges in Texas and Washington have upheld the ATF rule, which is an example of steps Obama can take outside the proposed gun control laws he is expected to send to Congress this month.
The case is National Shooting Sports Foundation Inc, et al, v. B. Todd Jones, U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, No. 12-5009.
SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/09/us-usa-guns-court-idUSBRE90811Q20130109
Gun retailers and manufacturers, including a trade group based in Newtown, Connecticut, scene of the December 14 school massacre, say the rule is burdensome and violates federal law.
It requires stores in the four U.S. states bordering Mexico to send a notice to federal law enforcement whenever someone buys two or more of rifles during any five-day period.
The measure applies only to high-caliber, semi-automatic rifles that can use a detachable magazine.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), which regulates gun sales, adopted the rule in 2011 amid rising cartel violence and at the urging of gun control groups for President Barack Obama to act.
Thousands of firearms are thought to cross the border illegally into Mexico each year, and semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines are a favorite of drug traffickers, the ATF said in a report last year.
Mexican authorities recovered more than 68,000 U.S.-sourced guns from 2007 to 2011, the ATF said.
The rule applies to retailers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas who, perhaps without realizing it, could be sources for those firearms.
Gun stores "have to create a new system to keep track of that," Richard Gardiner, a lawyer for retailers Foothills Firearms LLC and J&G Sales Ltd, told the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit.
Federal law does not allow law enforcement to require that system, he said, calling it burdensome because store workers do not always know which of the guns they sell are covered.
COURT DOUBTS BURDEN
The court's three judges, though, repeatedly doubted whether the rule creates much additional work.
"I don't remember the record containing any evidence of confusion," said Judge Harry Edwards.
ATF has a special phone number for retailers to call if they have questions, such as whether the rule covers a particular rifle, but few people have called, government lawyer Michael Raab told the court.
"Any dealer worth his salt" should know whether most guns he sells fit the criteria, Raab said, echoing the wording of a lower court judge.
Gardiner responded that evidence of the rule's burden is unnecessary because it is a government overreach.
The court is expected to decide within the next few months.
Gun rights advocates have also argued that the ATF measure could lead to a federal database of guns, which they fear would infringe on their rights. Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives have tried to cut off money to enforce the regulation.
The National Shooting Sports Foundation, a trade group for gunmakers and a plaintiff in the lawsuit, is based in Newtown, where gunman Adam Lanza killed his mother, 20 children and six school employees before shooting himself in one of the worst U.S. school shootings.
Lower court judges in Texas and Washington have upheld the ATF rule, which is an example of steps Obama can take outside the proposed gun control laws he is expected to send to Congress this month.
The case is National Shooting Sports Foundation Inc, et al, v. B. Todd Jones, U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, No. 12-5009.
SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/09/us-usa-guns-court-idUSBRE90811Q20130109
I'm not sure how you feel about the whole health care debate, but I honestly do wonder if that doesn't play into this issue. If you look at the countries with that just don't experience this type of massacre (at least not to the extent that the US is right now), one of the things we have in common is very easy health care access. I know Britain has a high crime rate, but not like this. Other countries I've heard compared are Canada and Australia. Yes, we all have gun control, but we also have health care for all. Look at Sweden. My understanding is guns are very commonplace there - as far as I know gun control doesn't exist. They don't have this problem...and they also have a Nationalized Health Care plan. I say this because part of that is access to Mental Health Care. Last year I walked in on a suicide. My client had taken his life and it was pretty horrible. I will fully admit I had a bit of a breakdown - it hit me super super hard. I left and went straight to the nearest Emergency Room as I was having a pretty serious panic attack. I was seem immediately, given meds to help me through the immediate crisis and instantly referred into a Dr. that specializes in Post Traumatic Stress. The reaction was immediate and that is exactly what I needed at that moment.
What if that had happened to me in the US and I was not insured? Post Traumatic Stress is pretty serious stuff if left untreated.
Anyway, I'm not trying to begin a new debate, but I do wonder if this isn't part of the issue? I do agree that someone determined to kill will kill regardless of the method used. And I truly think the only way gun control comes into play as the answer is if you can find away to round up every gun in existence and get rid of them. Not possible I don't think (although I would be ok with that...if they didn't exist at all that would be a good thing in my opinion). Not tooo realistic though.
What if that had happened to me in the US and I was not insured? Post Traumatic Stress is pretty serious stuff if left untreated.
Anyway, I'm not trying to begin a new debate, but I do wonder if this isn't part of the issue? I do agree that someone determined to kill will kill regardless of the method used. And I truly think the only way gun control comes into play as the answer is if you can find away to round up every gun in existence and get rid of them. Not possible I don't think (although I would be ok with that...if they didn't exist at all that would be a good thing in my opinion). Not tooo realistic though.
It is exactly that simple, but you cannot get people to wrap their minds around that. To them, just trying to remove the guns is a wonderful thing, and the next thing you know they'll be bitching about "where did the money go" instead of funding research into mental illness.
Speculation as to why its happening... mental illness obviously plays a part and for some of these sick bastards, they really think they can upstage the last guy and become more famous (or infamous) if you will. I do not know why they won't just kill themselves.... thousands do it annually, only a very small fraction resort to something like this. I also think in a round about way the the media plays into this. Between the media aggrandizing this and these people not wanting to "seem weak" and get help, they want to die like the coolest bad guy in the movies or on video games. For some people, I honestly believe that movies and games are their "relief" and they somehow think they identify with fictional characters. (I'm no professional, mind you.)
Why is it happening so much in the US right now? Well, again the media. Things similar to this are happening elsewhere. We are finding mass graves full of people in Mexico, but the media dumbs it down by saying that it was "useless druggies" and a rival cartel took them out. I think this happens in eastern europe, but we don't get that coverage. (Mike would be crying right now, but here comes some anecdotal evidence....) I know guy from Bosnia who downplays the violence here.
There is a lot we can do, but one things for sure. The Brady bill didn't do a thing. It was feel good legislation. (Don't know if you remember, but Brady was an aide of Reagans when that assassination attempt took place. It ended up being about semi automatic weapons and high capacity magazines.... the kicker is that Brady was shot with a .22 caliber revolver. That is something that the gun grabbers are apparently okay with.) Violent crime has been dropping in this country.
This event was horrible and you can't paint it in a different scene. But we have to do better rather than throwing money at things that have been proven not to work. (Liberals don't see it that way. They'd rather spend a billion dollars trying, rather than getting real about the situation..)
Speculation as to why its happening... mental illness obviously plays a part and for some of these sick bastards, they really think they can upstage the last guy and become more famous (or infamous) if you will. I do not know why they won't just kill themselves.... thousands do it annually, only a very small fraction resort to something like this. I also think in a round about way the the media plays into this. Between the media aggrandizing this and these people not wanting to "seem weak" and get help, they want to die like the coolest bad guy in the movies or on video games. For some people, I honestly believe that movies and games are their "relief" and they somehow think they identify with fictional characters. (I'm no professional, mind you.)
Why is it happening so much in the US right now? Well, again the media. Things similar to this are happening elsewhere. We are finding mass graves full of people in Mexico, but the media dumbs it down by saying that it was "useless druggies" and a rival cartel took them out. I think this happens in eastern europe, but we don't get that coverage. (Mike would be crying right now, but here comes some anecdotal evidence....) I know guy from Bosnia who downplays the violence here.
There is a lot we can do, but one things for sure. The Brady bill didn't do a thing. It was feel good legislation. (Don't know if you remember, but Brady was an aide of Reagans when that assassination attempt took place. It ended up being about semi automatic weapons and high capacity magazines.... the kicker is that Brady was shot with a .22 caliber revolver. That is something that the gun grabbers are apparently okay with.) Violent crime has been dropping in this country.
This event was horrible and you can't paint it in a different scene. But we have to do better rather than throwing money at things that have been proven not to work. (Liberals don't see it that way. They'd rather spend a billion dollars trying, rather than getting real about the situation..)
I still sort of feel like the big issue is being missed here (by here, I mean the gov't and this article, not the members of this group). Regardless of how people feel about gun control, nothing will truly end until they find a way to figure out what is happening in these mass killers heads when they do this. Is it a mental health issue? Is it some sort of a stressor that sets them over the edge? Guns exist, so someone determined to do something like this will - what is it that makes these guys do this? And why does it seem to be happening so frequently in the US right now? There must be something, no?
The problem with gun education is that so many of the anti gun agenda is simply fed up. They made their mind up and that is all there is to it. Instead of actually learning something about guns and instead of learning to read the facts posted by the CDC and FBI regarding gun crimes, they'd much rather run on emotion.
I took a basic hand gun course a long time back. The class consisted of a good mix of men and women and all age groups. 2 women in the class had never handled a gun and both were scared to death of them. By the end of the class (which was 4 nights long) one still remained anti gun, but softened her stance a bit. The other lady who had never held a gun and was completely anti gun ended up being a novice-competitive shooter.
These people have to be willing to accept a proper education and they aren't able to do that.
I took a basic hand gun course a long time back. The class consisted of a good mix of men and women and all age groups. 2 women in the class had never handled a gun and both were scared to death of them. By the end of the class (which was 4 nights long) one still remained anti gun, but softened her stance a bit. The other lady who had never held a gun and was completely anti gun ended up being a novice-competitive shooter.
These people have to be willing to accept a proper education and they aren't able to do that.
Thing is they dont care about the facts ..the countries they removed guns from like UK have a lot of crime now and the Countries like Switzerland who want citizens armed have no crime ..I hear Utah is going to arm its citizens and teach them to shoot
So this is going to be the kind of legislation we are up against, or should I say that is going to preoccupy our elected officials and appointed magistrates?
Oh my God..... This is the type of thing that stops a law abiding citizen from arming himself. Criminals, crack heads, gang bangers, nut jobs, etc. don't care about laws. They don't follow them any how.
I DONT understand the "want to do something" if it isn't going to be effective. We've tried this stuff before. As it turns out, violent crime in America as a whole is down until this past year.
http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
You've really got to look around for yourself but some of the numbers backing up what I am saying are mind numbing. We are one of the most populated countries in the world and our gun crimes are in some cases far less per capita than other countries.
Do what you want with this completely ill thought chunk of legislation. All of the potential fights over this are going to be redundant. It seems that so many people claim to want the facts, and when presented with them, they'd rather run on their opinion. That is todays "realist".
Oh my God..... This is the type of thing that stops a law abiding citizen from arming himself. Criminals, crack heads, gang bangers, nut jobs, etc. don't care about laws. They don't follow them any how.
I DONT understand the "want to do something" if it isn't going to be effective. We've tried this stuff before. As it turns out, violent crime in America as a whole is down until this past year.
http://factcheck.org/2012/12/gun-rhetoric-vs-gun-facts/
You've really got to look around for yourself but some of the numbers backing up what I am saying are mind numbing. We are one of the most populated countries in the world and our gun crimes are in some cases far less per capita than other countries.
Do what you want with this completely ill thought chunk of legislation. All of the potential fights over this are going to be redundant. It seems that so many people claim to want the facts, and when presented with them, they'd rather run on their opinion. That is todays "realist".
Heard of Fast and Furious and Holder, guns were walked through by the feds
Ok, while in THEORY it would be GREAT to have a law where guns getting sent to Mexican drug cartels could be identified, but HOW in the heck do you do that exactly?
It requires stores in the four U.S. states bordering Mexico to send a notice to federal law enforcement whenever someone buys two or more of rifles during any five-day period.
Seems kind of silly. I'm sure drug lords have all kinds of ways to get guns...they just won't buy them from these states. They have connections way past the borders.
Gun rights advocates have also argued that the ATF measure could lead to a federal database of guns, which they fear would infringe on their rights.
A valid concern, IMO.
I TOTALLY get the need and want to "do something:", but in reality, NONE of this is going to prevent a mass shooting, or prevent bad guys from getting guns.
Truth of the matter is, it's VERY hard to enact gun control legislation without getting on that slippery slope toward a larger gun control effortm, and constitutional rights being violated.
It requires stores in the four U.S. states bordering Mexico to send a notice to federal law enforcement whenever someone buys two or more of rifles during any five-day period.
Seems kind of silly. I'm sure drug lords have all kinds of ways to get guns...they just won't buy them from these states. They have connections way past the borders.
Gun rights advocates have also argued that the ATF measure could lead to a federal database of guns, which they fear would infringe on their rights.
A valid concern, IMO.
I TOTALLY get the need and want to "do something:", but in reality, NONE of this is going to prevent a mass shooting, or prevent bad guys from getting guns.
Truth of the matter is, it's VERY hard to enact gun control legislation without getting on that slippery slope toward a larger gun control effortm, and constitutional rights being violated.
Is this a no-brainer, or did I miss something??? Seriously, does something SO incredibly obvious need to be regulated?
***
Dear Gun-Shop Owners,
Please don't sell guns to Mexican Drug-Cartels.
Yours truly,
Barack Obama
PS: Kindly don't sell guns to illegal aliens, psychotic-people, suicidal teenagers, infants, toddlers, or Nigerian internet-scamers either! Thanks a bunch. Smoochies;-) BO
PSS: Actually, don't sell guns to BROWN people. We don't really like "their kind" around here, and don't need them armed. And those guys with the towels on their heads, don't sell to them. Cool beans? Love ya! BO
PSSS: My muslim brothers are okay, so they get a pass. As long as they know the secret-handshake (turn over for instructions on how to give-receive the handshake), they're aces;-) HugsX0X0X0, BO
***
Dear Gun-Shop Owners,
Please don't sell guns to Mexican Drug-Cartels.
Yours truly,
Barack Obama
PS: Kindly don't sell guns to illegal aliens, psychotic-people, suicidal teenagers, infants, toddlers, or Nigerian internet-scamers either! Thanks a bunch. Smoochies;-) BO
PSS: Actually, don't sell guns to BROWN people. We don't really like "their kind" around here, and don't need them armed. And those guys with the towels on their heads, don't sell to them. Cool beans? Love ya! BO
PSSS: My muslim brothers are okay, so they get a pass. As long as they know the secret-handshake (turn over for instructions on how to give-receive the handshake), they're aces;-) HugsX0X0X0, BO
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