Aa
No more meds but what happens w/ the pain....
It's been a while since I said anything, I was in pretty bad shape and went to the hospital two weeks ago. My doctor then puts me on Roxycodone but they are impossible to find and so expensive to buy. I was on them for a while but then went back to the percocet 10 mg. As you know that I always took more than I had to because I was in such pain and I was taking like 10 pills a day cause I would take them in two.
I went to a function on Saturday and (the funny thing was that on the day before I was praying for guidance) I saw this older disoriented lady wearing a patch. I don't want to be on meds for the rest of my life, I think I've been pretty open about that too.... so I flushed my pills on Saturday night and tried to do the cold turkey thing, I couldn't do it. I felt so bad for my three year old because she was trying to talk to me and I didn't have the energy to even reply. I went to the doctor this morning and he gave me suboxone. I feel o.k now, but I am really scared, what about my back pain, so I ask for your prayers....
Thanks Guys!!!
I went to a function on Saturday and (the funny thing was that on the day before I was praying for guidance) I saw this older disoriented lady wearing a patch. I don't want to be on meds for the rest of my life, I think I've been pretty open about that too.... so I flushed my pills on Saturday night and tried to do the cold turkey thing, I couldn't do it. I felt so bad for my three year old because she was trying to talk to me and I didn't have the energy to even reply. I went to the doctor this morning and he gave me suboxone. I feel o.k now, but I am really scared, what about my back pain, so I ask for your prayers....
Thanks Guys!!!
hi i hope you understand that you will go through with draw if you try to do it your self please have your doctor help you with the detox .it will take a little time to be free of all meds its a slow prossess and if you want to get off let the doctor decress your meds .but if your in pain then you have no choise but to stay on the meds untill you heal.dont rush things you will be ok
Thank you Jaybay,
You explained everything just right. I didn't know this was a long lasting medication because I was able to cut it in half. I will not get myself off the meds and I will talk to my doctor about it. I was under the impression that I could whean myself off just how you would from the other short acting meds. I did tell my doctor I wanted off all the meds but he wants me to use it, like you said, for pain management.
I am scared of going through w/d... I was on all kinds of different pain meds for over three years. It was a rollercoaster ride and I have done everything else, the chiro, therapy, I've gone to four different doctors to get different opinions with my MRIs. I get the same, I will have to learn to live with it. That's fine, but again, I don't want to be on any kind of pain meds because of all the stories you hear. Not only that, but I am paying out of pocket.
Thank you so much as this really set me straight...
For the time being, I will stay on these meds and hopefully I will be able to get off everything...
I'm just scared of it all...
You explained everything just right. I didn't know this was a long lasting medication because I was able to cut it in half. I will not get myself off the meds and I will talk to my doctor about it. I was under the impression that I could whean myself off just how you would from the other short acting meds. I did tell my doctor I wanted off all the meds but he wants me to use it, like you said, for pain management.
I am scared of going through w/d... I was on all kinds of different pain meds for over three years. It was a rollercoaster ride and I have done everything else, the chiro, therapy, I've gone to four different doctors to get different opinions with my MRIs. I get the same, I will have to learn to live with it. That's fine, but again, I don't want to be on any kind of pain meds because of all the stories you hear. Not only that, but I am paying out of pocket.
Thank you so much as this really set me straight...
For the time being, I will stay on these meds and hopefully I will be able to get off everything...
I'm just scared of it all...
Gotcha. But did you talk to your doc about getting off all narcotics at some point or he thinking you will use the Suboxone for pain control?
The "half life" is the length of time it takes for half of a drug dose to break down. Of course, it's a bit more complicated than that, but I'm not a chemist. LOL! The half-life of short-acting meds like vicodin and percocet is only a few hours, which is why they wear off so quickly.
Long-acting drugs like methadone and suboxone have a comparatively long half-life, which is why you don't get the big rollercoaster ride of chasing pain spikes like you do with short-acting meds. The downside of meds like methadone and suboxone is that the longer the half-life, the longer and more severe the withdrawal symptoms will be. A taper plan for Suboxone or mehtadone is necessarily much longer than a taper plan for vicodin or percocet. It's just the chemical nature of the drugs.
As vicki stated above, the job that Suboxone was created for is to stop cravings for a short time so the patient will stop harming himself by abusing his drug of choice. With cravings under control, it gives a patient time to begin the necessary mental work and lifestyle changes so that relapse is less likely when the taper is complete.
The reason Suboxone stops cravings is because it IS a narcotic. There are two ingredients in Suboxone. Buprenorphine (brand name Subutex) is a synthentic, long-acting narcotic. It is a partial agonist opiod which means it doesn't quite "fit" the opiate receptors in the brain as well as most other opiates, but it fits well enough to serve the same function. The other active ingredient is naloxone, which functions as something like a gate keeper at the opiate receptors. If you take a narcotic while taking Suboxone, it will actually cause you to go into withdrawal. Picture it as a battle over the opiate receptors in your brain. Nobody gets a seat at the receptor site so you go into withdrawal.
The official literature for Subutex and Suboxone states that withdrawal should be milder because it is a partial opiate agonist. The reality is quite different. Read some of the Suboxone detox stories over on the Substance Abuse forum and you'll find a whole lot of shocked people. Many of those folks say that Sub is more difficult to stop using than heroin or methadone. Some people who are prescribed Suboxone for pain management aren't even aware that it's a narcotic and get a nasty surprise if they decide to stop taking it.
Suboxone was created as a detox tool for addicts. It was studied and FDA approved for short-term (21 day) use. Since doctors are now using it for either long-term maintenance or long-term pain management. Without double-blind studies, that makes its use for those purposes "off label" use. It's perfectly legal and happens with all kinds of medications, but I'm never entirely comfortable taking something with off-label status. Call me paranoid and crazy, but that's my personal opinion.
Hope I haven't confused you any more than I already have. Suboxone can be a huge help for people going through detox, but that's when it is used as prescribed with a doctor's supervision and support.
I really admire your determination, but again, I don't think it's a good idea to detox without your doctor's knowledge and assistance. There is no way to tell how bad your withdrawal will be or when it will begin. It's going to be one of those wait and see situations, so be prepared to feel sick one way or another until you're done.
The "half life" is the length of time it takes for half of a drug dose to break down. Of course, it's a bit more complicated than that, but I'm not a chemist. LOL! The half-life of short-acting meds like vicodin and percocet is only a few hours, which is why they wear off so quickly.
Long-acting drugs like methadone and suboxone have a comparatively long half-life, which is why you don't get the big rollercoaster ride of chasing pain spikes like you do with short-acting meds. The downside of meds like methadone and suboxone is that the longer the half-life, the longer and more severe the withdrawal symptoms will be. A taper plan for Suboxone or mehtadone is necessarily much longer than a taper plan for vicodin or percocet. It's just the chemical nature of the drugs.
As vicki stated above, the job that Suboxone was created for is to stop cravings for a short time so the patient will stop harming himself by abusing his drug of choice. With cravings under control, it gives a patient time to begin the necessary mental work and lifestyle changes so that relapse is less likely when the taper is complete.
The reason Suboxone stops cravings is because it IS a narcotic. There are two ingredients in Suboxone. Buprenorphine (brand name Subutex) is a synthentic, long-acting narcotic. It is a partial agonist opiod which means it doesn't quite "fit" the opiate receptors in the brain as well as most other opiates, but it fits well enough to serve the same function. The other active ingredient is naloxone, which functions as something like a gate keeper at the opiate receptors. If you take a narcotic while taking Suboxone, it will actually cause you to go into withdrawal. Picture it as a battle over the opiate receptors in your brain. Nobody gets a seat at the receptor site so you go into withdrawal.
The official literature for Subutex and Suboxone states that withdrawal should be milder because it is a partial opiate agonist. The reality is quite different. Read some of the Suboxone detox stories over on the Substance Abuse forum and you'll find a whole lot of shocked people. Many of those folks say that Sub is more difficult to stop using than heroin or methadone. Some people who are prescribed Suboxone for pain management aren't even aware that it's a narcotic and get a nasty surprise if they decide to stop taking it.
Suboxone was created as a detox tool for addicts. It was studied and FDA approved for short-term (21 day) use. Since doctors are now using it for either long-term maintenance or long-term pain management. Without double-blind studies, that makes its use for those purposes "off label" use. It's perfectly legal and happens with all kinds of medications, but I'm never entirely comfortable taking something with off-label status. Call me paranoid and crazy, but that's my personal opinion.
Hope I haven't confused you any more than I already have. Suboxone can be a huge help for people going through detox, but that's when it is used as prescribed with a doctor's supervision and support.
I really admire your determination, but again, I don't think it's a good idea to detox without your doctor's knowledge and assistance. There is no way to tell how bad your withdrawal will be or when it will begin. It's going to be one of those wait and see situations, so be prepared to feel sick one way or another until you're done.
I don't take anything other than what he gives me, so I don't take any percocets or any other pain meds, He knows everything I take. Even when I was taking more than prescribed. I've always been honest with my doctor no matter what....
Jaybay, not to sound ignorant, but what do you mean when you say
" It's got an incredibly long half-life, which makes it terribly difficult to stop using"
Also, do you guys think I will be ok if I do the 1/2 in the am and in the evening, will I still have bad WD....
thanks
Lett
Jaybay, not to sound ignorant, but what do you mean when you say
" It's got an incredibly long half-life, which makes it terribly difficult to stop using"
Also, do you guys think I will be ok if I do the 1/2 in the am and in the evening, will I still have bad WD....
thanks
Lett
I'm a bit confused, so please set me straight if I've got your situation wrong. The way I see it, you:
A. Want off all narcotics;
B. Still need some form of non-narcotic pain management;
C. You saw your doctor after you tried to cold turkey the roxicodone/ Percocet and he gave you suboxone;
D. You saw your doctor again and he wants you to stay on the Suboxone for pain management.
Did you tell him you want off all narcotics and have no intention of continuing the Suboxone (which IS a synthetic narcotic by the way)? That was your opportunity to work out both a realistic taper plan and explore other ways to manage your pain, so why did you not do that? This is where I'm getting confused.
I think you may be setting yourself up for failure by setting such a fast detox goal. I'm not familiar enough with your situation to know how long you've been on opiate therapy, but I assume it's been at least several months? That's plenty of time for your body to go through withdrawal when you quit cold turkey. The same rules apply with Suboxone, only worse because it stays in your system and remains effective so much longer than Percocet. Don't even think about cold turkeying with Suboxone.
There is no way to completely avoid withdrawal symptoms no matter how humane the taper plan may be. Your pain WILL get worse, and parts of your body will be in pain that never hurt before. That WILL go away with time, but there is no way of telling how long it will take. Could be a couple weeks, could be a few months. Most people need temporary supportive care in the form of meds for withdrawal-related anxiety, depression, high blood pressure, nausea/vomiting, muscle cramps and insomnia to successfully detox. That's where your doctor can be your ally.
Since the Suboxone has such a long half-life and you appear to be determined to do this alone, wait until you start feeling withdrawal symptoms before you take your next dose. Make a note of how many hours it took for the symptoms to begin. Stay on that dose timing until you no longer notice withdrawal. That might take a few days. Then either lower the dose or stretch out the time between doses, and wait to stabilize again. You have to give your body time to get used to each dose and timing change, and your body will buck in complaint with each change. Like I said before, there is no way to completely avoid withdrawal.
You don't have to do this alone, and I don't think you should. Read some of the stories on the Substance Abuse forum. Most home detox plans fail miserably. It's not a matter of willpower or lack of character. It's a medical issue requiring professional assistance to ensure success and to keep you healthy.
I sure hope I haven't misread your intent, so please set me straight if I did! :-)
A. Want off all narcotics;
B. Still need some form of non-narcotic pain management;
C. You saw your doctor after you tried to cold turkey the roxicodone/ Percocet and he gave you suboxone;
D. You saw your doctor again and he wants you to stay on the Suboxone for pain management.
Did you tell him you want off all narcotics and have no intention of continuing the Suboxone (which IS a synthetic narcotic by the way)? That was your opportunity to work out both a realistic taper plan and explore other ways to manage your pain, so why did you not do that? This is where I'm getting confused.
I think you may be setting yourself up for failure by setting such a fast detox goal. I'm not familiar enough with your situation to know how long you've been on opiate therapy, but I assume it's been at least several months? That's plenty of time for your body to go through withdrawal when you quit cold turkey. The same rules apply with Suboxone, only worse because it stays in your system and remains effective so much longer than Percocet. Don't even think about cold turkeying with Suboxone.
There is no way to completely avoid withdrawal symptoms no matter how humane the taper plan may be. Your pain WILL get worse, and parts of your body will be in pain that never hurt before. That WILL go away with time, but there is no way of telling how long it will take. Could be a couple weeks, could be a few months. Most people need temporary supportive care in the form of meds for withdrawal-related anxiety, depression, high blood pressure, nausea/vomiting, muscle cramps and insomnia to successfully detox. That's where your doctor can be your ally.
Since the Suboxone has such a long half-life and you appear to be determined to do this alone, wait until you start feeling withdrawal symptoms before you take your next dose. Make a note of how many hours it took for the symptoms to begin. Stay on that dose timing until you no longer notice withdrawal. That might take a few days. Then either lower the dose or stretch out the time between doses, and wait to stabilize again. You have to give your body time to get used to each dose and timing change, and your body will buck in complaint with each change. Like I said before, there is no way to completely avoid withdrawal.
You don't have to do this alone, and I don't think you should. Read some of the stories on the Substance Abuse forum. Most home detox plans fail miserably. It's not a matter of willpower or lack of character. It's a medical issue requiring professional assistance to ensure success and to keep you healthy.
I sure hope I haven't misread your intent, so please set me straight if I did! :-)
Please listen to all the good advice you have been given. First of all I work in the addiction field. Suboxone should only be used to get you off the tne narcotic, it's primary job is to block the opiate craves so to speak. now that you are not using heavily and can be properly evaluated I would find the best ortho doctor who specializes in backs, and get xrays and MRI and see again what in going on, then ask to be referred to a qualiffied pain specialist. I have RSD full body. I am right now in the process on a spinal stimulator trial to help with the pain in my right leg and. I refuse to take pain killers, because with RSD you just become hooked on the drug, the drug does not get rid of the pain. A good pain clinic has many options. Good luch to you and God Bless
WOW... this is so informative. The doctor did want me to stay on the suboxon. When he first prescribed it, it sounded as if we were only doing this temperarly, when I went back last Wednesday, I had a urine test, when I came back, he asked how was I feeling on it.
I do feel different, I still feel pain but somehow controled... I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. The pain this time around is sharp and tend to feel it more as the day dies down and I lay in bed. I do have to say that in the morning is so much easier to get out of bed. Anyhow, doctor said I could stay on it and people live their rest of their lives on it without a problem. He asked if the strength felt fine, I said yes, he then said to continue taking it three times a day and that in one 2mg pill under the tounge.
I take one in the morning (about 8)and half of one about 3 or 4pm.
I do feel it as it's wearing out cause my teeth clinge or I start getting tired and sleepy. Starting tomorrow I want to take half in the morning and half in the evening.
PLEASE, PLEASE, tell me what you think. I want to be off completely by the end of this week. But should I take half about 11 am so that my body doesn't get use to taking it first thing in the morning....
I hope I hear from you guys tonight... and thanks to everyone that has gotten me through all this
I do feel different, I still feel pain but somehow controled... I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain. The pain this time around is sharp and tend to feel it more as the day dies down and I lay in bed. I do have to say that in the morning is so much easier to get out of bed. Anyhow, doctor said I could stay on it and people live their rest of their lives on it without a problem. He asked if the strength felt fine, I said yes, he then said to continue taking it three times a day and that in one 2mg pill under the tounge.
I take one in the morning (about 8)and half of one about 3 or 4pm.
I do feel it as it's wearing out cause my teeth clinge or I start getting tired and sleepy. Starting tomorrow I want to take half in the morning and half in the evening.
PLEASE, PLEASE, tell me what you think. I want to be off completely by the end of this week. But should I take half about 11 am so that my body doesn't get use to taking it first thing in the morning....
I hope I hear from you guys tonight... and thanks to everyone that has gotten me through all this
It sounds to me, though, like you've never had a steady treatment of your pain. If you are treating it only with short-term pain meds, you are going up and down- taking 10 pills to try to get something, and then you get a huge crash and your only option is to take that huge dose again.
Have you visited a specialist to help you properly manage your pain? First you'd have to make a promise to yourself to take ONLY the amount prescribed, NO MORE. You could try long-acting pain meds that would give you more steady pain control, rather than trying to get instant relief and being met with such problems afterward.
Also, I suggest you study pseudo-addiction. The fact that there is so much pain involved for you means that your motivations are so much different. Pseudo-addiction is a well-known condition in which people with undertreated pain start to exhibit features of addiction. They are addicted to the freedom from pain that meds offer them and because the meds aren't freely offered, they show drug seeking behaviors. (doesn't sound very pathological, does it?)
But really, the part that is going to be up to you is figuring out how to take only what is prescribed, and work with a doctor if they are willing to work with you. Because you need pain control, somehow, just some different way.
Have you visited a specialist to help you properly manage your pain? First you'd have to make a promise to yourself to take ONLY the amount prescribed, NO MORE. You could try long-acting pain meds that would give you more steady pain control, rather than trying to get instant relief and being met with such problems afterward.
Also, I suggest you study pseudo-addiction. The fact that there is so much pain involved for you means that your motivations are so much different. Pseudo-addiction is a well-known condition in which people with undertreated pain start to exhibit features of addiction. They are addicted to the freedom from pain that meds offer them and because the meds aren't freely offered, they show drug seeking behaviors. (doesn't sound very pathological, does it?)
But really, the part that is going to be up to you is figuring out how to take only what is prescribed, and work with a doctor if they are willing to work with you. Because you need pain control, somehow, just some different way.
Suboxone is also used for pain management, even though it's an off-label use. Is your doctor using it for a quick detox or is he planning on using it long-term? Suboxone was studied and FDA-approved for 21-day use. No studies yet exist to determine long-term effects of Suboxone use.
Do yourself a favor, and keep that Suboxone dose as low as humanly possible. It's got an incredibly long half-life, which makes it terribly difficult to stop using. You have to taper off very slowly. If you've taken it for even a few months it will take you twice that long to taper off. Suboxone IS a narcotic, so the usual withdrawal rules apply.
Pain docs love prescribing it because it contains an extra ingredient that (in layman's terms) blocks additional narcotics from filling in the opiate receptors in the brain. Take some extra percocet on top of the Suboxone and you'll find yourself in precipitated withdrawal. Some docs believe Suboxone can't be abused, and that just is not true. If an opiate naive person gets their hands on it, he will get high and possibly die of an overdose. It has a street value just like any other narcotic, so diversion is no more or less likely with Suboxone than any other opiate.
If you really want to stick to your guns and get off the narcotics, there are plenty of other things to try. There's the usual steroid injections, massage therapy, physical therapy, TENS units, and don't forget psychotherapy. A good pain shrink can help teach you relaxation and meditation techniques. No, you can't meditate your way out of pain, but you can meditate yourself to sleep to escape it. You also relax enough that your pain levels decrease without having to take a pill.
We live in an instant gratification world. We want something, and we want it now. Chronic pain doesn't bow to any therapy "right now." To a great extent, we have to find a way to simply live with it. I know that goes against the grain, and it took me many years to figure that out for myself, but life is a whole lot easier for me now that I've made room in my life for the pain. Can't say I enjoy it, but at least I'm not constantly fighting it and trying to maintain my old "normal" level of activity.
Do yourself a favor, and keep that Suboxone dose as low as humanly possible. It's got an incredibly long half-life, which makes it terribly difficult to stop using. You have to taper off very slowly. If you've taken it for even a few months it will take you twice that long to taper off. Suboxone IS a narcotic, so the usual withdrawal rules apply.
Pain docs love prescribing it because it contains an extra ingredient that (in layman's terms) blocks additional narcotics from filling in the opiate receptors in the brain. Take some extra percocet on top of the Suboxone and you'll find yourself in precipitated withdrawal. Some docs believe Suboxone can't be abused, and that just is not true. If an opiate naive person gets their hands on it, he will get high and possibly die of an overdose. It has a street value just like any other narcotic, so diversion is no more or less likely with Suboxone than any other opiate.
If you really want to stick to your guns and get off the narcotics, there are plenty of other things to try. There's the usual steroid injections, massage therapy, physical therapy, TENS units, and don't forget psychotherapy. A good pain shrink can help teach you relaxation and meditation techniques. No, you can't meditate your way out of pain, but you can meditate yourself to sleep to escape it. You also relax enough that your pain levels decrease without having to take a pill.
We live in an instant gratification world. We want something, and we want it now. Chronic pain doesn't bow to any therapy "right now." To a great extent, we have to find a way to simply live with it. I know that goes against the grain, and it took me many years to figure that out for myself, but life is a whole lot easier for me now that I've made room in my life for the pain. Can't say I enjoy it, but at least I'm not constantly fighting it and trying to maintain my old "normal" level of activity.
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