Aa
Has anyone used these antibiotics?
If anyone has used the following antibiotics, please let us know what happened? I don’t expect it to heal patm, even though it has a small chance of succeeding, but it would provide important information.
1. Ampicillin
2. Chloramphenicol
3. Trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole
4. Amoxicillin
5. Ciprofloxacin
6. Vancomycin
7. Fidaxomicin
I’ve seen posts of at least two people in the past who claimed they were cured with metronidazole but then it returned months later. This may infer it’s a Gram-positive bacterial strain or strains. I’ve used metronidazole with almost the same outcome.
Saccharomyces boulardii (Sb) has been used in the medical world with other antibiotics against various bacterial strains with great success. I’ve use Amoxicillin with negative and worsening results on PATM but when combined with Sb, the result was unbelievably positive. Saccharomyces boulardii is known to secrete proteases (antitoxins) that counter some bacterial toxins. They can also bind to other strains inhibiting them from binding to gut wall. They’ve been shown to also decrease gut permeability. This may describe why Sb is so successful when used with other antibiotics. I presume when used on triple therapy with other antibiotics it would be even better.
Regardless, I don’t suggest anyone to try all sorts of antibiotics now with Sb because it doesn’t heal PATM permanently and will only cause resistance to those antibiotics. However, if anyone has used some of them before I would like to know what you’ve observed.
1. Ampicillin
2. Chloramphenicol
3. Trimethoprim-sulfamethoxazole
4. Amoxicillin
5. Ciprofloxacin
6. Vancomycin
7. Fidaxomicin
I’ve seen posts of at least two people in the past who claimed they were cured with metronidazole but then it returned months later. This may infer it’s a Gram-positive bacterial strain or strains. I’ve used metronidazole with almost the same outcome.
Saccharomyces boulardii (Sb) has been used in the medical world with other antibiotics against various bacterial strains with great success. I’ve use Amoxicillin with negative and worsening results on PATM but when combined with Sb, the result was unbelievably positive. Saccharomyces boulardii is known to secrete proteases (antitoxins) that counter some bacterial toxins. They can also bind to other strains inhibiting them from binding to gut wall. They’ve been shown to also decrease gut permeability. This may describe why Sb is so successful when used with other antibiotics. I presume when used on triple therapy with other antibiotics it would be even better.
Regardless, I don’t suggest anyone to try all sorts of antibiotics now with Sb because it doesn’t heal PATM permanently and will only cause resistance to those antibiotics. However, if anyone has used some of them before I would like to know what you’ve observed.
I've tried rifaximin and erythromycin. The erythromycin helped with my bad breath, and I think both of the antibiotics helped with my digestion (i.e., I now have at least one bowel movement per day whereas I used to go once every two days or so). I also took a lot of probiotics and inulin before, during, and after the antibiotics. Unfortunately, PATM is definitely still there (although it might be a little less).
I wanted to try neomycin (and/or metronidazole) since they're supposedly effective against bacteria that reduce choline to trimethylamine (and hence are recommended for TMAU), but I can't get neomycin in Germany, and my gastro doesn't like me trying too many antibiotics.
I've also begun consuming cold-pressed grapeseed and olive oils for the DMB (3,3-Dimethyl-1-butanol), which also supposedly reduces the breakdown of choline in the gut. Not much effect so far, though.
I wanted to try neomycin (and/or metronidazole) since they're supposedly effective against bacteria that reduce choline to trimethylamine (and hence are recommended for TMAU), but I can't get neomycin in Germany, and my gastro doesn't like me trying too many antibiotics.
I've also begun consuming cold-pressed grapeseed and olive oils for the DMB (3,3-Dimethyl-1-butanol), which also supposedly reduces the breakdown of choline in the gut. Not much effect so far, though.
2 Comments
@PATMsufferer
Thanks @PATMsufferer, this is very important information. I think these are broad spectrum antibiotics but I’m not sure. I’ll look it up after this. Thank you. Cold-pressed olive oil is a very healthy option. It’s probably the best source of healthy lipid.
Btw, I think it’s better not to use all the different kind of antibiotics until we know what we are looking at. Some of us whom have used a lot of these antibiotics have built resistance. It’s ineffective against us now. Your gastroenterologist is right, it’s no use trying them all if we have no idea what we’re supposed to kill. If you need it later it’s not effective anymore because you’ve used it. Hopefully in the near future, we’ll have a more precise target to concentrate on.
Thanks @PATMsufferer, this is very important information. I think these are broad spectrum antibiotics but I’m not sure. I’ll look it up after this. Thank you. Cold-pressed olive oil is a very healthy option. It’s probably the best source of healthy lipid.
Btw, I think it’s better not to use all the different kind of antibiotics until we know what we are looking at. Some of us whom have used a lot of these antibiotics have built resistance. It’s ineffective against us now. Your gastroenterologist is right, it’s no use trying them all if we have no idea what we’re supposed to kill. If you need it later it’s not effective anymore because you’ve used it. Hopefully in the near future, we’ll have a more precise target to concentrate on.
@PATMsufferer
Yes, I've found they're broad spectrum antibiotics. Once again thank you.
Yes, I've found they're broad spectrum antibiotics. Once again thank you.
I took cipro for a week or 2 thinking it would help at the onset of this when people where just sniffling around me.
Shortly after taking the antibiotics, people start coughing and making all sorts of foul noises lol.
I'm almost certain this is a gut Biome issue, likely linked to gut permeability. Taking an antibiotic which kills both the good and bad microbes (there are a lot more GOOD ones) might be the worst thing one of us can do.
Shortly after taking the antibiotics, people start coughing and making all sorts of foul noises lol.
I'm almost certain this is a gut Biome issue, likely linked to gut permeability. Taking an antibiotic which kills both the good and bad microbes (there are a lot more GOOD ones) might be the worst thing one of us can do.
15 Comments
@TAPAKAH
Thanks @TAPAKAH. Ciprofloxacin is used a lot in medicine against the typhoid bacterium, Salmonella typhi and other types of Gram-negative bacteria. So it would appear it killed all other competing microbes in your gut but not very effective on whatever strains is causing PATM. Salmonella tyhi is a Gram-negative bacterium. It’s interesting because we know from our collected data that when some sufferers who’s never taken Metronidazole took it for the first time, PATM diminishes really low or disappear for a while. Metronidazole is effective against Gram-positive bacterial species only. We’ve confirmed something today. We have greater confidence to say that whatever bacterial species are causing PATM, is Gram-positive. That’s good news as they’re easier to get rid of because of its single membrane layer. Gram-negative alternatively has a double layer membrane. To destroy bacteria, drug engineers target proteins on the surface member of the bacterium in order to break into the cell and deliver the poisonous drug. This is easily done on Gram-positive bacteria. It’s not so easy on dual membrane bacterium because while your designed drug can get pass the first membrane, it won’t necessary get pass the second membrane, so it’s harder to design drugs to kill dual-membrane bacteria.
This suggests, before I do a FMT, I should go on a triple thereby Gram-positive antibiotic for at least 4 days.
Thanks @TAPAKAH. Ciprofloxacin is used a lot in medicine against the typhoid bacterium, Salmonella typhi and other types of Gram-negative bacteria. So it would appear it killed all other competing microbes in your gut but not very effective on whatever strains is causing PATM. Salmonella tyhi is a Gram-negative bacterium. It’s interesting because we know from our collected data that when some sufferers who’s never taken Metronidazole took it for the first time, PATM diminishes really low or disappear for a while. Metronidazole is effective against Gram-positive bacterial species only. We’ve confirmed something today. We have greater confidence to say that whatever bacterial species are causing PATM, is Gram-positive. That’s good news as they’re easier to get rid of because of its single membrane layer. Gram-negative alternatively has a double layer membrane. To destroy bacteria, drug engineers target proteins on the surface member of the bacterium in order to break into the cell and deliver the poisonous drug. This is easily done on Gram-positive bacteria. It’s not so easy on dual membrane bacterium because while your designed drug can get pass the first membrane, it won’t necessary get pass the second membrane, so it’s harder to design drugs to kill dual-membrane bacteria.
This suggests, before I do a FMT, I should go on a triple thereby Gram-positive antibiotic for at least 4 days.
@TAPAKAH
Look at the list of antibiotics and which type intended for. Some are broad spectrum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antibiotics
Vancomycin is a very strong Gram-positive antibiotic. It’s really hard to get. I believe whoever tries it will see PATM diminish greatly or disappear, perhaps there’ll be resistance or permanent cure forever if taken for 6 or more months. It’s hard to say because no one here has tried it. This is the antibiotic I would want to take before a FMT procedure. As a matter fact it’s exactly the drug they give out before FMT.
There’s actually a new version of Vancomycin now that kills bacteria with no resistance so far but researchers are guarding this very closely so looks like it won’t be available to us for another ten years. It’s a combination of 3 variants of the original vancomycin compound. Chemists just changed a few branches on the original compound itself and bacteria can’t adapt to 3 different compound attack at once without dying.
Look at the list of antibiotics and which type intended for. Some are broad spectrum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_antibiotics
Vancomycin is a very strong Gram-positive antibiotic. It’s really hard to get. I believe whoever tries it will see PATM diminish greatly or disappear, perhaps there’ll be resistance or permanent cure forever if taken for 6 or more months. It’s hard to say because no one here has tried it. This is the antibiotic I would want to take before a FMT procedure. As a matter fact it’s exactly the drug they give out before FMT.
There’s actually a new version of Vancomycin now that kills bacteria with no resistance so far but researchers are guarding this very closely so looks like it won’t be available to us for another ten years. It’s a combination of 3 variants of the original vancomycin compound. Chemists just changed a few branches on the original compound itself and bacteria can’t adapt to 3 different compound attack at once without dying.
@TAPAKAH
Suppose PATM is really caused by microbes and nothing else. If researchers knew exactly what that bacteria were responsible for PATM, developing a drug to kill it isn’t hard. It just requires money and time. But all we know now it’s one or more Gram-positive bacterial species living among the hundreds existing in the gut.
Suppose PATM is really caused by microbes and nothing else. If researchers knew exactly what that bacteria were responsible for PATM, developing a drug to kill it isn’t hard. It just requires money and time. But all we know now it’s one or more Gram-positive bacterial species living among the hundreds existing in the gut.
Talking about Metronidazole I have to say I was going to die when I took it 5 years ago.Maybe I'm allergic to Metronidazole-I had a really bad diarrhea,I vomitted and had a Disgusting abdominal pain.
@mindspace
Interesting! Did it help to decrease PATM symptoms once for you or not?
I agree, some people can be allergic to some medication…best thing to do is stop and avoid that medication forever. There’s an alternative they always give when people are allergic to metronidazole. It’s called Vancomycin but I haven’t tried it to know. Metronidazole is the first line of defense against CDI infection, the alternative is Vancomycin.
Anyway I can’t use metronidazole now. If I take it, it either does nothing or worsen my PATM. I’ve used it for so many years that probably all bacteria in my gut are immune to it.
Interesting! Did it help to decrease PATM symptoms once for you or not?
I agree, some people can be allergic to some medication…best thing to do is stop and avoid that medication forever. There’s an alternative they always give when people are allergic to metronidazole. It’s called Vancomycin but I haven’t tried it to know. Metronidazole is the first line of defense against CDI infection, the alternative is Vancomycin.
Anyway I can’t use metronidazole now. If I take it, it either does nothing or worsen my PATM. I’ve used it for so many years that probably all bacteria in my gut are immune to it.
I have to say there is no antibiotic that decrease my PATM symptoms.
@mindspace
Have you combined it with Sb? Also do you control your diet or just eat anything?
Have you combined it with Sb? Also do you control your diet or just eat anything?
Hey @TAPAKAH, I know you know all this but I’ll just explain it for other readers as many misunderstand what fungi are. A mould or yeast is all within the fungi kingdom. Fungus is singular. The mushroom and microscopic yeast cells fall in the same category because of classification but they are very different in size. Gut fungi species, yeasts, candida and so on, are microscopic and cannot be seen with the naked eye. There’s no way for anyone to know what fungal or bacterial species exist by looking at a poop sample – a microscope is needed. A mushroom growing outside is different, it cannot survive in our gut because not only it’s too big but it has evolved to live in a different environment. I’ve seen people posts here implying such ideas. It’s not possible. For normal supersize mushroom to live in our stomach, it needs to evolve so much but it doesn’t matter because we’d die in the process. There’s been rare cases like this woman, on link below, swallowing a whole mushroom without hydrating it to expand beforehand and never chewing, and it somehow expanded in her stomach. Had she chewed it or hydrate it the mushroom wouldn’t have caused her the cramping and pain. One has to give way, either she lives and the mushroom dies or both will die because they didn’t evolve to live a symbiotic relationship. A mushroom was not meant to live in our gut just as a dog wasn’t meant to live there.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4345742/Grim-footage-shows-mushrooms-inside-woman-s-stomach.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-4345742/Grim-footage-shows-mushrooms-inside-woman-s-stomach.html
SB doesn't work for me.When I take it I have yeast smell-it's awfull.Candida have yeast smell-it works for people who have candida.What works for me-bifidobacteria and lactobacillus acidophilus,plantarum.
@mindspace
Thanks for the information. What does yeast smell like? Have you combined Sb with any kind of antibiotics before?
Thanks for the information. What does yeast smell like? Have you combined Sb with any kind of antibiotics before?
No.Only with bifido and lactobacteria.
dontgiveuphope this is from patm_observer she was cured last year.
OUR SYSTEM FRIENDS[UNKNOWN PARASITE] ARE NOW OUR ENEMIES.
1.WHAT IS WRONG WITH US ?
ans. Electromagnetic radiation exposure
2.WHY ARE THE UNKNOWN PARASITE IN OUR SMALL INTESTINE?
ans. They are highly good in removing the radiation from our body and converting it to a way our body can eliminate through our exhale breath.
3. What is hidden in our small intestine
Ans. Yeast and UNKNOWN PARASITE [they say our body clone them].
4. What are the chemicals release by these PARASITE?
ans. The chemical release is UNKNOWN, but are highly beneficial to our body.
5.WHAT ARE THE DOCTORS SAYING?
ANS.The body can remove them by itself if the radiation exposure is resolved.
6. What chemical[molecules] is coming from our breath?
ans. It's electromagnetic waves, it's travel in a speed of light. Which causes coughing, nose irritation, sneezing and difficult in breathiing.
OUR SYSTEM FRIENDS[UNKNOWN PARASITE] ARE NOW OUR ENEMIES.
1.WHAT IS WRONG WITH US ?
ans. Electromagnetic radiation exposure
2.WHY ARE THE UNKNOWN PARASITE IN OUR SMALL INTESTINE?
ans. They are highly good in removing the radiation from our body and converting it to a way our body can eliminate through our exhale breath.
3. What is hidden in our small intestine
Ans. Yeast and UNKNOWN PARASITE [they say our body clone them].
4. What are the chemicals release by these PARASITE?
ans. The chemical release is UNKNOWN, but are highly beneficial to our body.
5.WHAT ARE THE DOCTORS SAYING?
ANS.The body can remove them by itself if the radiation exposure is resolved.
6. What chemical[molecules] is coming from our breath?
ans. It's electromagnetic waves, it's travel in a speed of light. Which causes coughing, nose irritation, sneezing and difficult in breathiing.
@mindspace
Thanks for the information on probiotics.
Btw, yes, I’ve read her post. The claims are two extreme with no supporting evidence. This flies in the face of the what’s been discovered so far.
Electromagnetic radiation exposure doesn’t tell us anything or provide prediction. It’s just an idea with no supporting evidence.
For instance, radiation can only do one thing. It can mutate DNA material in cells. The next question is where is the mutation happening at? She didn’t even mention that because she doesn’t know. She has no background to understand that. How does she explain those that have no radiation exposure? It’s one thing to come up with an unbelievable idea and it’s another to find evidence to support it.
If it’s a yeast or parasite, how does that explain the countless thorough health test that many of us have taken that shows no candida and parasite in our blood and stool? Parasites are easy to spot because they shouldn’t exist at all in our gut. Many here have pushed for doctors to look for Candida alibicans because it’s the yeast known for candida overgrowth and still nothing. According to health experts we don’t have them.
Besides, MeBO researchers would have easily distinguish out worms and parasites very easily because not only they are huge in size in comparison to microbes but shouldn’t exist in our gut so it sticks outs like a sore thumb in all kind of tests i.e. stool, blood and urine and so on.
On the other hand, a serious question comes to mind, why should our idea of a bacteria be any legitimate? There are many evidence to support this. First, this disease is very similar to other digestive diseases which are chronic also. Chronic in this aspect imply lasting and incurable. MeBO currently hasn’t been able to separate TMAU2 from PATM, which further proves their similarities. Just recently clinics have cured some of these incurable digestive diseases permanently with FMT. It’s a growing trend.
Notice that Fecal microbiota transplant can only work if it’s a microbial imbalance. This means, it’s an existing gut bacteria that have flourished in numbers because control species are absent of just too inadequate in numbers.
Many sufferers here have claimed being cured from taking certain antibiotics but PATM returned after a month or weeks afterwards. That indicates a microbe is at the heart of the problem.
Ok so why have doctors not been able to find this bacteria? There are many reasons. First, how do we know which bacteria is responsible for PATM in let’s say 1000-5000 species? They can’t. There must be a criterion to look for. For instance, in TMAU1, researchers know that patients stink. They isolate the stinking compound TMA from skin, breath, blood, urine samples… and trace it back to the faulty liver enzyme and gut bacteria producing it. The TMA compound was the criterion to look for.
We can’t do that with PATM because we have nothing to use and isolate out the one or more microbes responsible. We haven’t specifically found what is the actual PATM compound, therefore we have no way of knowing which of these gut bacteria, probably a normal gut microbe or group of microbes, are responsible for creating the environment for PATM to exist. If there were at most 50 strains, then probably someone would have found out already but there’s 1000 to 20000 gut microbial species. Looking for a strain or strains in that huge community, is really looking for a needle in the haystack. Researchers haven’t been able to name all gut microbial species because there’s just too many. They’ve only been able to study some of them over the years.
Appling FMT to normalize gut microbial balance is similar to when your computer is all messed up and instead of trying to find the millions of little errors and viruses, you just demand your technician to wipe it clean with a fresh install because you have no idea what the hell went wrong. There could have been a million mistakes but who cares, we just want to get it fixed.
Thanks for the information on probiotics.
Btw, yes, I’ve read her post. The claims are two extreme with no supporting evidence. This flies in the face of the what’s been discovered so far.
Electromagnetic radiation exposure doesn’t tell us anything or provide prediction. It’s just an idea with no supporting evidence.
For instance, radiation can only do one thing. It can mutate DNA material in cells. The next question is where is the mutation happening at? She didn’t even mention that because she doesn’t know. She has no background to understand that. How does she explain those that have no radiation exposure? It’s one thing to come up with an unbelievable idea and it’s another to find evidence to support it.
If it’s a yeast or parasite, how does that explain the countless thorough health test that many of us have taken that shows no candida and parasite in our blood and stool? Parasites are easy to spot because they shouldn’t exist at all in our gut. Many here have pushed for doctors to look for Candida alibicans because it’s the yeast known for candida overgrowth and still nothing. According to health experts we don’t have them.
Besides, MeBO researchers would have easily distinguish out worms and parasites very easily because not only they are huge in size in comparison to microbes but shouldn’t exist in our gut so it sticks outs like a sore thumb in all kind of tests i.e. stool, blood and urine and so on.
On the other hand, a serious question comes to mind, why should our idea of a bacteria be any legitimate? There are many evidence to support this. First, this disease is very similar to other digestive diseases which are chronic also. Chronic in this aspect imply lasting and incurable. MeBO currently hasn’t been able to separate TMAU2 from PATM, which further proves their similarities. Just recently clinics have cured some of these incurable digestive diseases permanently with FMT. It’s a growing trend.
Notice that Fecal microbiota transplant can only work if it’s a microbial imbalance. This means, it’s an existing gut bacteria that have flourished in numbers because control species are absent of just too inadequate in numbers.
Many sufferers here have claimed being cured from taking certain antibiotics but PATM returned after a month or weeks afterwards. That indicates a microbe is at the heart of the problem.
Ok so why have doctors not been able to find this bacteria? There are many reasons. First, how do we know which bacteria is responsible for PATM in let’s say 1000-5000 species? They can’t. There must be a criterion to look for. For instance, in TMAU1, researchers know that patients stink. They isolate the stinking compound TMA from skin, breath, blood, urine samples… and trace it back to the faulty liver enzyme and gut bacteria producing it. The TMA compound was the criterion to look for.
We can’t do that with PATM because we have nothing to use and isolate out the one or more microbes responsible. We haven’t specifically found what is the actual PATM compound, therefore we have no way of knowing which of these gut bacteria, probably a normal gut microbe or group of microbes, are responsible for creating the environment for PATM to exist. If there were at most 50 strains, then probably someone would have found out already but there’s 1000 to 20000 gut microbial species. Looking for a strain or strains in that huge community, is really looking for a needle in the haystack. Researchers haven’t been able to name all gut microbial species because there’s just too many. They’ve only been able to study some of them over the years.
Appling FMT to normalize gut microbial balance is similar to when your computer is all messed up and instead of trying to find the millions of little errors and viruses, you just demand your technician to wipe it clean with a fresh install because you have no idea what the hell went wrong. There could have been a million mistakes but who cares, we just want to get it fixed.
@mindspace
What’s the compound causing the allergies on other people?
I believe it’s toxins – not just one because gut permeability would allow toxins from a variety of species. What kind of toxins get through will be determined by molecular mass size and permeability status of the gut. The liver will then remove what it can and the rest of the toxins will find its way to sweat glands and breath. Most will be urinated so drinking a lot water and sweating helps.
We know that the only way to isolate out compounds is to use chromatography and mass spectrometry but I don’t think it’s going to be easy because we aren’t looking for one compound. Normally this is one of the first things in finding a disease like this but I think this will be one of the last thing found.
Given our gut isn’t permeably exactly the same, it would mean we may have a slight difference in the variety of toxins. Just like there’s differences in net size, there are also differences in fish caught. That’s assumption. It might explain why some are so extreme while others are mild.
What’s the compound causing the allergies on other people?
I believe it’s toxins – not just one because gut permeability would allow toxins from a variety of species. What kind of toxins get through will be determined by molecular mass size and permeability status of the gut. The liver will then remove what it can and the rest of the toxins will find its way to sweat glands and breath. Most will be urinated so drinking a lot water and sweating helps.
We know that the only way to isolate out compounds is to use chromatography and mass spectrometry but I don’t think it’s going to be easy because we aren’t looking for one compound. Normally this is one of the first things in finding a disease like this but I think this will be one of the last thing found.
Given our gut isn’t permeably exactly the same, it would mean we may have a slight difference in the variety of toxins. Just like there’s differences in net size, there are also differences in fish caught. That’s assumption. It might explain why some are so extreme while others are mild.
If you look at MeBO permeability tests, different compounds with different masses are used.
I had to take penicillin for a tooth extraction along with zanax before my dental appointment. I noticed almost no PATM reactions at work while taking the pennicillin and zanax. I think this may be related to the nervous system because the without the zanax, I had bad reactions at work. Has anyone tried zanax or an anti-depressant? I hate to taking meds. I never take anything and eat and extremely healthy diet, exercise ect. but Im going to lose my job if I don't do something. I'm thinking of asking my doctor for a prescription for an antidepressant since I don't think she will give me one for Zanax(but it helped so much)
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