female "full release" by male massage therapist

[lonnie736]

why is it cheating to get a sexually arousing massage? the two people don't have a relationship, are not involved, and may never see each other again. if a woman gets the "full release" treatment, is that cheating? men would say no, women would say yes. women goto these parlors in new york city and other cities and have men provide them "happy endings." i would argue there's nothing wrong with this and that a husband wouldn't mind if his wife went to one of these establishments either.

[mandamoo32]

Just noticed but you have this posted alot. In many different forums and such.... are you looking for a double standard or are you role reversing cause your old lady is mad at you for getting a full release at a massage you got or..... Really what is the need for asking strangers online the definition of cheating? That should already be established between you and your partner.

[TTinKKerBBell]

This is all entirely TOO philosophical - NOT in reality what we are REALLY dealing with when we're dealing with one another!!  This has become quite silly, actually.  Don't know about the rest of You but I'm done with this topic.

[Ashelen]

Sorry to come late to this, I've been super busy. I just had to laugh that the OP keeps saying how "superficial" and "surface" the topic is....and how clearly, it must be a gender divide causing a rift on the issue.

Well, let's get real. If you want to talk about something intimate in a relationship being superficial..let's go out on a limb. EVERYTHING is superficial. We're all just a compilation of atoms.and everything we see and feel are a result of wavelengths and "sensations" that are really just "superficial" reactions to everything else. I mean aren't we, technically, just atomical facades? A bunch of little dots put together to make a superficial creature with superficial feelings and superficial interactions?

yea...so...unless you want to completely demean our existence, you have to realize that superficial or not, we attribute our own importance to certain acts and feelings as human beings. and the fact that "TECHNICALLY" if you break it down, it's all about procreation and it's "simply" the "superficial" act of touch bringing release....doesn't make it any less wrong, because we have attributed the concept of wrongness to it. And we've done it over generations. Cheating has been acceptable on and off during periods of time in the past, but the reason monogamy WORKS is because it provides A) the safest method of sexual interaction between two people B) security and C) genetic stability. Therefore, society has obliged by creating a stigma around cheating...,.and as a result, we all have built feelings and emotions around the stigma that tell us "wow, I was just cheated on and it HURTS because it's WRONG...."(and if you can't accept the emotional reaction you can dig even deeper and see that beyond that, A)my partner has increased my risk of HIV and STDs, B)the person I trust has betrayed my trust and now I feel less secure and C) on a basic level, your children now have genetic incompatibilities outside of your own family, which on a microscopic level isn't bad (i.e. half brother and half sister aren't LIKELY to ever have to mate, but in an evolutionary sense...this limits the base for breeding) ...so regardless of that it should or should not be an issue....it IS an issue.

I don't make a lot of sense right now, I've just taken a huge dose of Dayquil and I've slept about 4 hours in the last 3 days, but I'm TRYING to say that..superficial or not, any act that causes a person in a relationship to break their partner's trust by engaging in any sort of outside relationship (intimate, emotional, physical (however brief)), is cheating and no matter how superficial it "technically" is...it's still wrong, and it still hurts. so yes. "happy endings" are cheating. yes, it's wrong. Some people are OK with that, and that's absolutely fine doesn't bother me one bit...but I am not, and when I asked my husband neither was he. And he wasn't just lying either, trust me my husband will stick his foot in his mouth without thinking about it lol but this time he gave a genuine shudder of disgust and revulsion.

[teko]

So, I am curious to know what you consider to be a committment between two people. Is it not when two people have chosen each other for their lifetime partner. And what is the role of that lifetime partner. And if getting off is simply getting off and not offending anyone in the process then what makes us different than animals? And what makes having a partner make sense? In other words, why would we committ to anyone if we did not think it wrong to simply go thru life seeking sexual pleasure anywhere we can find it? Believers in the word of god believe that if you look upon a woman with lust, then you have already committed adultry in your heart........ To one that thinks there is no god and this is as good as it gets and when yer dead, yer dead and no consequences of your behavior, then anything goes and who cares what anyone else thinks or gets hurt as a result. Not too long ago, the biblical view was the norm. Geesh! In the last 20-30 years, things sure have changed.

What these questions do to me is make me wonder what separates us from animals? Or are we really any different at all? Points to ponder....

[RockRose]

lonnie,  I can't understand much of what you were trying to say in your last post.

Bottom line is,  I think you're the same person who continues to come here and post the exact same thing.

Most of us don't agree with you.

It's your life.  You can choose to do whatever you want.

But I don't understand why you keep coming here and asking for opinions when you never get what you want to hear.

Do what you want.  But don't think you can convince anyone that what you're proposing is moral.

[TTinKKerBBell]

I think lonnie enjoys slinging 75cent words and listening to the rest of us opine

"cheat" is a simple 5 letter word - we all learn what it means in kindergarten - most of us don't need these philosophical and colorful words to figure out what is cheating.  Most Husbands and Wives see eye to eye on what is cheating and anything outside their "agreement" is cheating.  Simple

[specialmom]

El, I have to say that I agree with you.  I do not see looking at porn, masturbation or fanticizing about another person as cheating.  I also don't think it is cheating to receive sexual contact from a massage therapist if it is something that you and your significant other have agreed is alright to do.  What I was disagreeing with you on is that your examples were the same as what the OP suggested.  
Most relationships traditionally would find that to be crossing the line.  Male and female alike.  Making it a guy/girl thing in my mind does not really belong in the discussion either.  
One can give this an okay in their relationship and then it isn't cheating.  But I think many a partner would have a hard time selling the idea that they did not cheat if this happened when explaining it to their signficant other.  

[specialmom]

Here is my question Lonnie------------  do you work in a massage therapy office?  Or do you frequent one?  As in-------- do you give it or take it?  

I'm sorry if my husband had physical contact with another woman, it would be cheating in our marriage.  Intercourse is not the only thing that qualifies.  Regardless if it is a male or female.  My husband feels the same.

[Jaybay]

ROFL!  Women are more "non-physical" than men?  Son, you have a lot to learn...

[lonnie736]

what i love about this subject is that it points out the flaws in relationships, and the insecurities based upon purely "physical," "superficial," conditions--keep in mind, this is all touching one or another "physically," nothing "metaphysical" about it, thus all "lower pleasures," it's the higher pleasures we, as a species, are so famous for. yet humans get so bent out of shape about these lower pleasure issues (especially women, it appears, who are, arguably more "emotive," or "non-physical" than men--which poses a paradox. suddenly women are more motivated by physical occurances than men)...this behavior is all a byproduct of our need to procreate and yet we ascribe so much more, more internal "emotional" feelings, and can feel abandoned by--or cheated upon by--others when we violate an assumption that those procreative urges ought to be preserved for one person or another. very interesting. the common denominator is pleasure/nature/instinct, not distrust or abuse of a contract between two people. it's really never intended to hurt anyone yet the other one feels somehow wronged--I can't quite put a finger on why this is....seemingly, the only real instance of where the line justifiably should be drawn is re: true sexual intercourse, unless (as others have posited) predetermined openness has been agreed to between both parties. the rest is relative and should be considered with conditions unlike strict adherence to a rule, as in actual intercourse. just my thoughts. ;)

[el_em_en_oh]

The question is... did Uma wash HER hand immediately after shaking YOUR hand!

[brice1967]

On a side note completely concerning Uma Thurman.  When I was in the bar business... Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines (Olympic skier and wild woman) were hanging out in the club for a week or so.  A couple of nights after I met them both... the wife and I go to dinner in one of the towns nicest places.  As we walk in Uma Thurman and Grata Gaines both said "HI Brice"...... my wife looks at them then looked at me with a puzzled look.  She then said..."That's Uma Thurman!"  I then replied "Yup and her friend Greta".  

Apparently my wife was unfamiliar with "my kind of celebrity" and said.... "How does Uma Thurman and Greta Gaines know you?".  I just chuckled and said "This is me Baby".  LOL

P.S.  Uma shook my hand when I introduced myself.... didn't wash the thing for 2 weeks!

[el_em_en_oh]

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with what the OP said, or with the whole cheating/not-cheating thing... I just think it's an interesting discussion point.

Personally, I think that if you know in your heart, and "feel" that what you're doing is wrong (whether you're simply talking to a member of the opposite sex, or otherwise, or actually "doing the deed") then it's cheating.

You know in your heart when you're doing something wrong, so I think cheating comes in many forms. Personally I don't think that masturbating to porn is cheating, and neither does my wife. Neither of us thinks that fantasizing about others while we're together is cheating, so it's all good. Talking to members of the opposite sex is okay, as long as the conversations are within the bounds of we both know is right & wrong.

You know if you're cheating or not, plain & simple.

[specialmom]

El, I often agree with you but I think you are making a big stretch to go from watching porn and masterbating to going to an establishment and having the woman cause you to "release" as the poster says.  Not sure how you are trying to make those into similar things-----------  apples and oranges and very different.  

If your wife went for a massage and the man included sexual gratification into the massage, you would think this was the same as your wife masterbating alone?  The man "touching" her????  The man possibly being aroused himself doing it?  

I don't get your correlation between these two things at all.  Another person touching my husband crosses a boundary.  But that is how we work our marriage.  If I was alright with it---------- then he wouldn't have to lie about it and it wouldn't be cheating.  But since I'm not alright with it, then it breaks the rules of our marriage.  He wouldn't be alright with it either.  It would definately be cheating in our marriage with the way we have things set up.

Rockrose, you are right.  We've had this post before.  And yeah, I want a massage therapist to work on my neck and my feet as I've got my husband for the parts in the middle.  Not interested in some stranger going "there".  

[RockRose]

This keeps coming up on this board,  periodically.  I can't tell if it's the same exact poster keeping asking this question.

I've never,  ever in my life heard of a woman going into a massage parlor and asking to be sexually touched.  Same reason there aren't any "women's clubs" that offer nude male dancing.  (There are men's clubs that occasionally have "lady's night" where women go with other women for a bachellorette party or some other lark,  once or twice in a lifetime.  There aren't businesses that cater full time to women watching nude men.  Fact is,  women don't want to do this).  Women also don't want to go in and pay for a shoulder and neck and feet massage and have some guy grope them.

And I fully believe that if there WAS such a woman who wanted that,  I'm sure her husband wouldn't think that was just fine.

[sweetpea03]

You have gone from physical cheating(a person having their hands on your spouse's genitals) to emotional cheating(fantasizing about someone else) which are 2 different things. Both can be harmful to a relationship and the boundaries of a couple's relationship should be discussed. Some may be ok with fantasizing about others, watching porn, etc, while others may not be. That is up to the couple. The strict definition of cheating, is not black and white for everyone as it would depend on what they are comfortable with.  

[el_em_en_oh]

By the same rational, if I fantasize about another woman while having intercourse with my wife, am I cheating?

If that's the case, then I'm skrewed, because Uma Thurman, Jennifer Anniston & I have had many a three-some in my head, while I've been in bed with my wife. And I dare say my wife has done the same thing with whomever is on her 'top-ten list'.

[el_em_en_oh]

Ergo, having an orgasm without the specific "consent"  (or 'okay') from your partner, is considered cheating, if I'm reading the above comments correctly. If my partner doesn't like me 'bringing myself off' or watching porn, for the same effect, then in essence, I'm a cheater.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

[brice1967]

I'd say watching porn and masturbating is not cheating if.... if your significant other does not object.  If the wife says she's against it and he does it it will obviously cause some waves but with all things considered.... the husband was by himself.

[el_em_en_oh]

So if a man watches porn, masturbates to orgasm, and his wife doesn't like the fact that he does this... is it considered cheating?

Not saying I agree or disagree, but it's an interesting topic.

[teko]

How is it not cheating? If there is nothing sacred between two people in a committed relationship, then why bother committing in the first place?  I stand by my original remarks.

Cheating is any action, with any person, place or thing that causes ill feelings and mistrust between two people who have formed a commitment to each other, period."

[AHP84]

Yeah, my husband would never in a million years be totally fine and carefree with the idea of another man touching me in any sexual way, whether it involved hands, genetalia, or toys or whatever.
And yes, I don't want any part of another woman touching my husband's privates, ever.

It all really comes down to what each individual couple has communicated to each other of the boundaries of their personal relationship. There is no standard "one size fits all"--it should be okay if it's this way vs. that way, because the situation is acted out in a certain fashion. Some couples may be okay with that, others (probably most) will not.

[brice1967]

From a jerk who knows all about cheating.... even talking inappropriately with the other person hundreds of miles away is cheating.  You wouldn't have a problem walking into a bar and seeing your significant other being manually brought to orgasm by another woman?  Wow..... that is an open relationship.

[TTinKKerBBell]

If You rob a bank of 5$ instead of 500$ or 5,000$ - have You robbed the bank?

have You broken the law??

are there consequences??  

If one wants a "superficial" orgasm one can go solo - what could be more "superficial" than that??  Once You've involved another person it is no longer "superficial"