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1028452 tn?1537452084

Do It Anyway

People are often unreasonable, illogical and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you
of selfish, ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some
false friends and some true enemies;
Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you;
Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will
forget tomorrow,
Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have, and
it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you've got ... anyway.

You see, in the final analysis, it is
between you and God,
It never was between you and them anyway..
84 Responses
1028452 tn?1537452084
Dear Gate
As long as God is there no matter what people think, you should do what you truely blieve it is right thing to do
1028452 tn?1537452084
No ofcourse we don't ( talking about the nature of God ( the creature of the nature itself ) won't take us to what we really need to know.
I personaly prefer to stay and walk in a logical path.
662085 tn?1331349160
*looks up
OMG god always with the drama


Well hope to see some more good stuff from you soon
1028452 tn?1537452084
Dear Gate
Look up my profile ( by clicking on my name )
Check on "smile" "medhelp social" "inspiring stories" and ..... communities there
I am sure you will find some goodies there
Catch you soon
Avatar universal
Hey there Mr. Rainbow,
I'm glad I looked in here because I just spotted my name mentioned in caps. Geepers, creepers, are you yelling at me?
Number one, you are off in things you say. And why quote what a "man" said - the Rabbi you mentioned? Quote the Word of God, not people.
People that lean on what other people say when discussing the bible prove to me what they are trying to prove is not in the bible or if it is, they have no idea how to find it on their own which would mean they are not searching for truth but instead just quoting people who have some title such as "Great Rabbi, or Great Evangelist." I am not interested in what Great Evangelists say nor am I interested in what Great Rabbis say unless they take it directly from the Word of God and not what 'they think' sounds good or sounds true. I can post what some Great Rabbis say too - in how they found Jesus.

Yes you are right as far as God is spirit. It says that in the NT too.

"God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and truth." John 4:24  

But Jesus is part of the God-head, so God did put on flesh.  I think you know that is what Christians do believe, so do you want me to NOT believe that?
And when I say "Christians," I mean both Jew AND Gentile who follow Jesus. As you probably know Christos is the Greek word for "anointed one," so Christian can be either a Jew or gentile who follow the "anointed one." But most Jews today believe you are not a Jew if you follow Jesus. Well nothing could be further from the truth. Ow, that shoe hit me Ike.

You sounded mad and Dazon likes things to be quiet up here, so rather than go any further with what I believe and more of why I KNOW the ACLU is ruining this country - I invite you to come to the Biblical Forum and then we can discuss things if you want...

And I don't want to get into whether or not this country is a Christian country on Dazons forum but like I said, you can join the Biblical Forum if you wish.

If we can discuss things without throwing things rocks at one another ( and I can behave) come on down and contribute whatever you want to discuss.

I am wondering if you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are in fact the Word of God because I would rather have you quote what God says than what a Rabbi says.

And the stuff you mentioned about satan and Christianity - you are dead wrong and its amazing how you think you could tell me what the devil is about when the crux of Christianity is that Jesus defeated the devil at Calvary.

You don't sound, Uhmmm, very tolerant do you? Hmmm

AND that is usually the case of what happens when "tolerant people" meet up with me for some reason. Should I be offended? No not at all. I am used to liberals who tolerate everyone but Christians - meet them everyday in my neck of the woods - same woods you live in btw. Hey! Lets have lunch and discuss religion and politics. -  just teasing you. :)

So now you can come back and yell, and do that all caps thing....but if you do, my answer will be posted in the BBA forum out of respect for Dazons forum.
bye, bye.

hey Cloudwindgate - hope all is well;)
662085 tn?1331349160
Things are good a little lonely lol :D I'm going to make some tea :D
Avatar universal
Hey Cloud, :)  loneliness can happen even if you have a zillion people around you. Sometimes its because you need that special someone to be with you to fill the void that they can only fill. Go out and find her! :) lol

Yeah I just had tea too. Today I have a little bit of the flu or something so tea makes me feel better..
1028452 tn?1537452084
What you need is a hot steam of Okaliptus leafs
Avatar universal
Thanks rahim. I just looked it up. It seems to be Eucalyptus from what I just read.
I remember as kids mothers would use Vicks Vaporub which is probably made from the same type of stuff, yeah I think its from eucalyptus, but of course the natural stuff that you mentioned would be much better using hot steam like you said...

Next time I go to a health food store I will ask them about it. Thanks again..
1028452 tn?1537452084
here is a tip ( I had to omit some of the article because it was too large to send )
Cold & Flu Busters: The Natural Approach
Inhale steam for fifteen minutes three times daily in acute stage, when the ... to arrest the beginning of a cold and flu and other benefits are detoxification of ... intrigued by the elderberry's reputation as a cure for colds and flu, ... American Indians used the leaves and flowers in antiseptic wash for skin ...

There are many theories as how people get a cold & flu as there are treatments. When our immune systems are compromised it is a challenge to fight these dreadful illnesses.

Interesting enough human beings are able to go to the moon, but are unable managing and preventing this disease or can we? Colds cause clogged and runny noses, sore throats and often dry cough. Flu symptoms are much more severe and will cause high fever and chills, a feeling of exhaustion and the whole body may ache. This includes headaches, backaches and sore muscles. Flu viruses are stronger, more infectious and more harmful than colds. Isn't it ironic that many allopathic doctors still treat it with antibiotics which will have no effect and even create more health problems by decreasing the healing power of your immune system!

But whichever one you may be plagued with, there are numerous alternative herbal remedies to PREVENT and manage them. One of the most important consideration is to strengthen and supporting the immune system starting in early September of each year. Here are suggestions which will give you an overview what you can do and what is available without harmful negative side effects.


You probably are familiar with the quote..."You are what you eat" and let's add on ..what you drink. Unfortunately many eat processed "junk-food" (read the book from Eric Schlosser "America - Fast Food Nation"), loaded with chemical additives and especially MSG (Monosodiumglutamate, a neurotoxin, creating brain damage and other health hazards). A healthy diet with lost of raw certified organic vegetables and fruit grown without chemical fertilizers, herbicide and pesticide spraying, irradiation, carrots, parsley, celery, watercress, garlic, fermented products like sauerkraut, kefir, yoghurt, unrefined flaxseed and hemp oil are excellent sources for omega 3 and 6 essential fatty acids. And don't forget our grandmother's secret recipe - chicken noodle soup! Citrus fruits containing Vitamin A and C are very important too.

Herbal teas should play a major role what you drink regularly such as yerba mate, roibosh, Japanese green tea, elderflower, linden flower with 2 drops of lemon balm oil, thyme, rosehip, yarrow , st.john's wort, peppermint, spearmint, lemon balm, sage tea just to name a few since most herbal teas are helpful fighting cold & flu.

Another effective method is using inhalation (hot water and add a few drops of eucalyptus, chamomile, thyme oil, put a towel over your head and inhale). It helps loosen mucus, heals the throat, nasal passages and bronchial tubes. Horsetail inhalations reduce swelling of mucous membranes. Onion or nasturtium inhalations disinfect, ginkgo biloba leaf kills bacteria and heals the cells of the damaged mucous membranes almost immediately. Inhale steam for fifteen minutes three times daily in acute stage, when the condition is improving, inhale steam in the evening before retiring for a week or so to help heal the bronchial passages. To help alleviate and disinfect dry air passages, add 10 drops of tea tree oil to a bowl of hot water or vaporizer and leave it in the bedroom overnight. (not recommended for children).
Vitamin C and Vitamin A (avoid during pregnancy) play an important part to fight cold & flu.

Most Important

Washing your hands often is the key to practise preventing or spreading cold and flu viruses!!

Scientific Proof

Finally, there is solid scientific evidence to back up the folklore, thanks to Israeli researcher Dr. Maeleine Mumcuoglu, Ph.D. of the Hadassah-Hebrew University Medical Center. In 1980 Dr. Mumcuoglu, intrigued by the elderberry's reputation as a cure for colds and flu, did her thesis on the antiviral effect of elderberry. She patented a procedure to isolate the potent disease fighting compounds form elderberry, then tested the extract (Sambucol) on patients of the flu outbreak at a Kibbutz Aza in Israel and this was the testing result:

American Indians used the leaves and flowers in antiseptic wash for skin diseases, and the berries to dye their hair black and dye the strands of grass they use in their basket designs. Others have used the tea of the leaves as a diaphoretic, the inner bark as a cathartic, the flowers simmered in oil for preventing sunburn, and steeped in water as a compress for a headache. The flowers contain a oil that is used in perfume and cosmetics. Elderflower water can be used as a wash for dry skin or as a cooling wash for the eyes. According to an ancient recipe, washing your face with elderflower water in the morning and at night, and leaving it there to dry, will remove freckles and morphew (hardened skin). American Indians used the leaves also for pain relief and to promote the healing of injuries. Don't you agree, that the healing power of this eldertree/bush is incredible and fascinating and can bring relief to so many health problems.

If you follow the natural way that Mother Earth provides us as suggested in my article, you will do no harm to your body and strengthen your immune system. I am soon 70 years old and followed these rules all my life from childhood on and therefore rarely suffered from a cold and flu and can't even remember when it hit me last time. These natural herbal remedies have been part of my health regime for as long as I can remember. You do not have to dread the cold and flu season, just be prepared to support your bodies healing power with these natural herbal cold & flu busters.

"For every disease we know, MOTHER EARTH provides a herbs to grow!"

Words of Wisdom

"When we open up our consciousness and dwell in the beauties of Nature, we allow healing to enter our lives."

Dr. Bernard Jensen , DC, Ph.D. (1908 - 2001)


Herbs & Things, Jeanne Rose

The Green Pharmacy & The Green Pharmacy Herbal Handbook, James A. Duke, PH.D.

Herbal Antibiotics, Stephen Harrod Buhner

The Herb Book, John Lust

Indian Herbalogy of North America, Alma R. Hutchens

Strengthen Your Immune System, Reader's Digest, Canada

See also the second part of this article.

This information is offered for its educational value only and should not be used in the diagnose, treatment, or prevention of disease. Any attempt to diagnose and treat illness should come under the direction of your health care practitioner.

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Avatar universal
Thanks rahim - good info, appreciate it:)
1398919 tn?1293845204
Sorry about the caps - I was writing on my notebook, and the caplock gets stuck ON sometimes, and I fail to notice. I wasn't shouting at you. Well, maybe ranting a little (g)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Jews and Christians have radically different world views.
We CAN agree that that there is one G*d, Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Maimonides based is 13 Principles on Scripture, as well as on our rather extensive Commentary and interpretive literature on the subject, The Talmud. Jesus is thought to be quoted in there, by the way, but not as a major player in the debates. Mostly because the major debates took place two generations before his birth, and so by the time he was alive, anything added to it was commentary on commentary. Or even a third layer. It wasn't redacted until the 3rd Century CE.

Remember, Jesus wasn't a Christian - he was a practicing Jew who engaged in the spirited form of debate .which still is our way of understanding what exactly G*d meant by obscure Hebrew words. There are a few words in the Torah - the Five Books of Moses, that are ONLY used there, and never became part of the daily language.. Often when you are studying the Hebrew Scriptures in English, you are studying the English translation of a Latin Translation of a Greek Translation of the Hebrew. Sort of like that old child's came "telephone". Some Hebrew words have NO equivalent in Greek, making the entire thing quite clumsy. And like I said, WE'RE not sure what some of the HEBREW meant - our scholars are still debating it 5000 years after the Revelation at Sinai.

By the time he was born, Hebrew was a religious language, no longer used on a daily basis. Jesus spoke Aramaic (a related language to Hebrew) and Greek. Perhaps some Latin to speak to the Roman soldiers, and tax collectors, but almost every Roman spoke Greek. The Talmud was actually written in Aramaic, except for the direct Scriptural quotes, which are in Hebrew.

Try researching what the Hebrew for "abomination" was and what it meant when Jesus was alive. You'd be surprised.

Avatar universal
That's okay, I rant too:)

Yes we will have to agree to disagree. And yes we both agree there is one God.

As far as the language stuff - even if we put the New Testament off to the side and just examined the Hebrew Scriptures and looked at all the prophecies of the Messiah, no one but Jesus has fulfilled those that have already been fulfilled.

I would be curious what you think of Isaiah 53. Some that don't believe Jesus is Messiah say it refers to Isreal, but I don't see that at all.

As far as abomination, you are probably referring to when Jesus was telling people their sins were forgiven and the Pharacees felt he made himself equal to God, so to them yes that would be an abomination.

If you look up the education that "Saul" - the 'Apostle Pau'l had, its quite impressive - he studied under a well known Rabbi, killed Christians, yet once his conversion, he was totally sold out for Jesus and God used him mightily as it was he who wrote most of the New Testament, divinely inspired I believe though......Paul called himself the Hebrew of Hebrews.
God always chooses those who others never would, so only He can get the glory.

But I will say this Ike, though we both disagree on things at least we both are studying rather than just going along with things for the sake of just 'going along.'

Have a good week:)
Avatar universal
:)  That doesn't look like it came out right - "killing Christians" wasn't meant to look like part of Pauls education.:) Just was trying to convey he had a zeal for God in his studies and life and stood up for what he believed was right( which would be to stop Christianity) until he had the encounter on the road to Damascus, then he switched gears.  It is quite a story to read in the NT. Imagine how people felt having this guy come to preach when they knew him as a person who was persecuting Christians. But they soon found out he was sincere in now following the teachings of Jesus.
1398919 tn?1293845204
I meant the word translated as "abomination" in Leviticus.

You know: like eating shell fish is an "abomination"; wearing wool and linen mixed is an "abomination";like breeding your slave girl with an animal to produce offspring is an "abomination" and seething a lamb in its mother's milk is an "abomination".

Avatar universal
Ohhh, okeee. So before I start, and just to make sure I am not misinterpreting any point you are trying to make > make your point in black and white..

So how are you connecting abomination to Jesus. I want to hear it, not hints, but hear it.  I've heard it all before, but this might be a new one. Don't be shy now, ut ah. Come on.

And yes I am familiar with abominations in Leviticus - I've read them "all."

And Isaiah 53? No comment?
1398919 tn?1293845204
I am not connecting "abomination" with Jesus. I have nothing at all to say about him, since I am Jewish. For the same reason, I have nothing to say about Buddah, or Zorathusa. or any other Teacher. It would be presumptuous of me.

I keep trying to explain to you that we have totally different concepts of the Universe due to our religions. Therefore I have no comment to make about Isaiah to you, since we see his prophecies in different ways. We don't even read them the same in English. You read a mistranslation, and then make assumptions from that.

And what I have clearly been telling you to do is find out WHAT the HEBREW word for ABOMINATION means. What do ALL those things have in common?  (And they're in Exodus,  too)

Toe'vah (the best I can render the Hebrew word in the roman alphabet) means "ritually impure", a concept very important to the LAW centered Judaism. A ritually impure person could not come within the encampment in the desert, or withing the walls of a city.

Since we are not FAITH based, but LAW based, we see the world in terms of obeying the 613 Commandments in the Torah (actually, quite a few are moot, since they are Commandments about building the Tabernacle in the dessert, or the Temple sacrifices, suspended since it's destruction by the Romans in 70 CE.)

We simply do not have the concepts in common to hold a conversation on this topic.
Avatar universal
LOL, you are too much,,,,yeah sure I read a mistranslation, Come on Ike, that is a bit much.
What about the many Rabbis who know the original language who now follow Jesus?
Are you aware there are many Rabbi's that follow Jesus? I knew one right from where you live in Brooklyn -  Rabbi Sam Stern. He has probably passed by now, he was old last time I had seen him and that had to be 15 years or so....But you can find his testimony I am sure on the Internet somewhere.

But anyway,  you said I follow Faith based and you follow the law. I just want to clarify something,,,, its GRACE - God's grace. Faith yes, but in God's Grace.
The Jewish law is not something that is wrong in a Christians eyes, but the Law was put in place just to show that NO ONE could keep all the laws. Really think about it - who could keep all those laws. They are in place to show us that we do need a Savior.

And so Jesus came to fulfill the law...

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

But anyhow, as you know nobody can keep all the laws, so we need Gods Grace, which was Jesus - Gods gift > Salvation. That is Jesus's name > Yeshua ( salvation)

But anyhow, I'll quite bothering you Ike. :)  You don't have to reply back.

And like I said, anytime you want to share your religious beliefs, do post something in the Biblical Analysis Forum. I do like to discuss religious things, but no one wants to talk to me, not even you!. LOL
1028452 tn?1537452084
Excuse me I did not wanted to jump into your informative discussion, but I feel a point needs to be clarified here
Question :
If Faith or/and Laws are all we need( according to religious teaching, regardless of the kindness of the religion ), and all we need to do is obey the law and have faith to be saved Then where the responsibilities, wisdom, self-determination and conscious of the mankind sits ?
Hint :
Don't we expect us to just follow the rules with faith ( from where that faith can come from ) and have hope to be saved, how about if we figured some of those laws and rules are back-warded and discriminative and therefore against the DIGNITY of human being.
1028452 tn?1537452084
It looks like this forum has broken records of the no. of comments........lol
1398919 tn?1293845204
As a social worker, it was interesting to study the history of providing for those which G*d Commands us in the Five Books of Moses to have compassion for and to provide for: widows, orphans, the sick and "the strangers within your gates".

This applies only to America and England, by the way. Our system of social work evolved from the English systems, just like our American laws did. We didn't study the history in other countries.

During times when the predominant Christian model was based on "faith with out works is dead" - in other word, that one had to do good deed to ensure a place in heaven - individuals contributed to religious groups to provide those services.

During times such as today, when the predominant Christian model is/was "The elect of the Saved" : in other word - there is a "limited number of seats in heaven", and if you belong to OUR church, and believe in OUR interpretation of Scriptures as opposed to the one given by the pastor across the river, only members of that Church were considered worthy of support, and often were made to work for it, anyway. Actually forms of slave labor, since all they got was substandard food, clothing and shelter. Think of Oliver Twist in the Poor-House. Dickens was NOT exaggerating by much. although he was a social reformer, he was describing a real institution which "good Christians" felt noble supporting. They actually used the terms "The deserving poor' and "the undeserving poor". "The Deserving Poor" are those widows with kids who the lady of the manor brings leftovers to in Victorian based movies.

Almost every 19th Century faith-based social service agency which continues to exist in the US today in some form today, even Catholic Hospitals and Child Care Agencies, get most of their operating funds from the government today.  Most of the people are convinced that all they have to do is contribute to "the right church", and their place in heaven is assured. So why bother doing good works anymore?

Sorry to add to the record - or am I doing a good thing?

After all, debate is the hallmark of a free Democracy.

We would not have been able to have a conversation like this in the Massachusets Bay Colony.
1028452 tn?1537452084
I know what are you talking about
I hope we all could find the right way of being saved and our heart gbe in the most clarified condition, at the moment our soul departing for it's destination .
Avatar universal
rahim, you make good, valid points and I know it can be very confusing to people when I write that we cannot earn a ticket to heaven and that it is not based on what we do, or "works" but it is based on what Jesus did - and that is He died for our sins.

So your question is a very good one because a person would then ask well what about personal responsibility, being good to people, kind etc. So one might ask how can a Christian say that it is all about Jesus and you only have to believe or have faith in Him. But heres the thing, when a person accepts Jesus and realizes that He died for them, that will bring change (or should ) in their life and because of that, they then do good works. Because they want to, Not because they have to.

"Faith without works is dead" was written to those who were already saved, not to the unsaved( in the book of James and James was Jesus's half brother).

So in essence what it is saying is 'now' that you are saved, do good things for others. Salvation comes first, then good works, not the opposite. A person whose life has been totally changed, such as a murderer, we see not only the power of God, but the love of God. I was reading on one of the other forums and people were making fun of those who are in jail who accept God. The people thought that looked fake. But heres the thing...many times we as people don't see our faults. We don't see we make mistakes or the sins in our life that we should give up,,,BUT the person who is caught in a crime, 'they' see how bad they are because they have lots of time to think about it, and thats when a person might wind up repenting because they see themselves for who they are.

But most of us haven't done anything that would put us behind bars, so we think we are just fine, yet sin is sin and we too need to repent and ask God for forgiveness. But first we have to recognize our sin. Today everything is accepted, so people think as long as they are not hurting anyone its okay. But the day will come when we all will see just what we were blind to or what we chose to be blind to. "If it feels good, do it" is not a verse in the bible.

What Ike posted above as far as working your way into heaven, doing good works, that is NOT anything that Jesus taught. One of the churches that has taught being good and doing good will buy you a ticket into heaven is the Catholic Church. It reminds me very much of what Jewish people believe as far as Mitzpah's.  But as I always ask Jewish people, where does it say in the Hebrew scripture that God said Mitzpahs will get you into heaven. Nope. The blood sacrifice is the only thing He accepted.

As far as what you mentioned -finding the right way of being saved once this body of ours dies, I know I have found the way.
In all honesty, there is nothing in life that I have more assurance of then my Salvation.
And why? Because that is the only thing that doesn't depend on what I did or do.
I would have probably messed it up if it did. But because my Salvation depends on what Jesus has done, I have a blessed assurance that heaven is mine. Hot diggity dog!!!!!!! Ooops, I meant to say Glory, glory Hallelujah!  lol:)
1028452 tn?1537452084
I believe that you believe what you just mentioned, I respect that and I hope you enjoy your heaven but don't forget us in our hell ( give us a kind wave once in a while )
But it does not change the fact at all ,
I believe everybody on this earth has a responsibility of being human being and what they do really matters and nobody can not deceive himself ( if they do they can not deceive God ) and hide behind holy people unless they truly repentance in their heart.
Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her
Avatar universal
Oy Vey! :)  I give up!  Okay, listen you guys get ready to sing, shout and dance!!  I will now shake the dust from my shoes.
I have said enough and most times when I speak what I believe ( if not directly asked) it's because someone is misquoting my faith or someone who claims to be Christian is saying something is in the bible, when in fact its not.
And I don't mean that in a snippy way, but here is my point for the last time.  
Rahim I never said that people do not have a personal responsibility for their behavior, to treat people nice, to be kind etc.
We ALL have that responsibility and IF we treat people badly there are consequences, such as if someone is violent, they pay a penalty by going to jail or if someone is a trouble maker here on site, they get banned. So yes we have a responsibility for what we do - choices we make in life - I totally agree there and it doesn't matter what religion we are, we all abide under the same laws, here in America.

So kindness should be part of EVERYONES religion BUT, my point is "Kindness" will NEVER get someone a free pass to heaven. " Forgiveness" is the key to unlock the door.

And why forgiveness? Because WE ALL have to realize that NONE of us - no one, is spotless, we all have faults, so we need forgiveness to be cleansed of our sins before we can stand before a Holy God - because WE are NOT holy. Anyone that thinks they are spotless and without blame and goody goody, well what can I say about that - nothing because I can't convince anyone if they think they can become self righteous. I know I needed a Savior and needed forgiveness. But if I were to compare myself to others instead, I guess I am a good person and I can say the same about you, I can see you are a good person,,,,BUT if we compare ourselves to a Holy God, we might not look that good, so I need a Savior to stand in my place. Like a pinch hitter in baseball.

And yes,I do pray directly to God rahim and when I end the prayer, I end it "in Jesus name." He has given believers the use of His name, like power of Attorney.
But anyhow many people say they believe things and they have no idea why they believe what they believe except for the fact that they were born into that religion. I was born into Catholic Religion. I saw wrong teaching. I chose to search for truth. I found it.

Oh and I am very familiar with the story of Hagar.
But anyhow, you know I'll always like you no matter what. I'm actually harmless, just annoying to some or to many maybe.:)
I have a busy, busy weekend and gotta pack a bag for a short trip, for work but fun while working!
Hugs to you too rahim:)

1028452 tn?1537452084
Thanks Dear MO
If that works for you then it is good for you ( of-course nobody is spotless )
I believe everyone has to Be his/her own savior, He/She must carry his/her own cross and crucify his/her sins before God at all the time and every moments. If we were spotless, there was no need for God creating us, we are Human not an angel, Human is superior to an angel because angel has no choice but human does, our choices make our preciousness/worthlessness before God
So we deserve reward or punishment in our final destination.
I'll come back soon
1028452 tn?1537452084
Now think of the following points :

- Who have the greatest value before God ?
  We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )

Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough).  They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort  (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so,  She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son,  that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
1398919 tn?1293845204
I think it is expressed best in the Hebrew scriptures by Micha,

It has been told to you, Oh man
what is good
and what the Creator requires of you
Only to do good
love justice
and walk humbly with YOUR G*d.*

I was 12 when i first read that, and was impressed by the "your". A if the Prophet was saying that I got a chance to define my G*d, or at least my relationship with G*d from the many different ways which are described in the Hebrew Scriptures

I found that comforting at 12

and find it the same at 60.


(* a somewhat loose translation, to fit my liberal egalitarian beliefs, but the YOUR is in there),
1028452 tn?1537452084
Right and
Making a partner(s) of G*d is not a fair deal at all and  won't forgive that.
Avatar universal
Hey Rahim great questions! And there are answers from scripture that I can give you.

But I will answer the question in the Biblical Forum as soon as I can get back on MH.

Just a little busy right now..

Talk to you again:)
1028452 tn?1537452084
Hello dear MO
I will be thankful if you answer based on you personal believes
Did you get the Hajar's message ?

Get some rest............lol
1398919 tn?1293845204
Rahim did not ask you for a prepackaged scriptural response, but your ow gut feeling about the story of Hagar, Abraham's concubine..

Or is that forbidden?

1028452 tn?1537452084
It looks to me you are a logical, reasonable and truthful person
1398919 tn?1293845204
All a product of my spiritual education - even the logic.

Reasoned debate was always an important part of Jewish learning, and it reached its height under the enlightened rule of Moslem rulers in Spain and the former Babylonian empire when it was absorbed into the Turkish Empire.  (It was a great center of Jewish learning)

Among Jews, debate has always been an art form, and the Talmud always recorded both the winning AND losing side of  the theological debates, just as the US Supreme Court publishes the minority opinion on most of their Decisions. Because it is important for future generations to understand HOW decisions were made, and perhaps to find where mistakes were made in the original arguments. Both groups realized that they were only fallible humans, doing their best to interpret the will of those that came earlier.

If you show the world your logical arguments, and they can point out the error in the logic, miscarriages of justice can be reversed.

Avatar universal

You said:"Rahim did not ask you for a prepackaged scriptural response, but your ow gut feeling about the story of Hagar, Abraham's concubine.. "

Or is that forbidden?

Well first off, what's with the "prepackaged scriptural response" comment?  
He did NOT ask me for my own gut feeling about the story of Hagar prior to that post... And so what's the prepackaged stuff?  
I do answer "with scripture" ( unedited too, not like some people) because my opinion doesn't count, but scripture does count.
And if I do throw in my opinion at all, I don't claim it to be scripture, as I have seen others on this site do.
People claiming things in the bible when they are no where to be found in the bible, OR people leaving things out so as not to offend themselves or others by what God says.
That's amazing to me. People changing the Word of God to suit themselves.

But anyhow,what Rahim did say was this:"Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "

So my answer was to explain why I believe what I believe. And so why did I write what I wrote? Obvious - Rahim didn't understand what or why I believe what I believe, otherwise he would not have asked me to "rely on God......"

And as far as Hagar, up until that point all he asked was "did you know Hagar, read about her." My answer was that I am very familiar with the story of Hagar.

So sometimes I wonder if people read what people actually post before they say things.

And anyhow, why would you think it would be forbidden to speak of Hagar?
I don't leave anything out of the bible - I believe the bible in it's entirety - Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament, so nothing is omitted when I read the bible and I will discuss anything in the bible if someone wants to, no problemo.  
But as I mentioned several times, the Biblical forum is probably the place to discuss it.... I will be more than happy to discuss Hagar with anyone who wants to discuss it and since rahim does, I will, because I would like to hear what a Muslims interpretation of the scripture is. I do like to discuss things and I can without personal attacks. And rahim is able to discuss things without personal attacks either.  When people have strong belief in what they believe they never have to give a mike tyson bite and instead they just say what they want to say and back it up WITH scripture.

And the other thing is this, you don't have to speak for rahim, he seems to be able to speak quite well for himself. And I am not being snippy, just stating a fact. But you were being snippy with your "prepackaged" comment. I still want to hear what that is about.
You're not very tolerant of Christians Ike.  Gee whiz.

Hey rahim , how's it going??:) Hope all is well with you.
I'll be back, I want to  post in the other forum though.

1398919 tn?1293845204
It is interesting that you took a simple statement of fact as a personal attack. It is not.

Since i have been on the SPIRITUALITY list, you have never expressed your own PERSONAL feelings or opinions. A simple fact.

You are the one who  seems to show a lack of tolerance towards the beliefs of others. Your constant need to throw Christian proof texts at us when we are discussing OUR feelings and opinions is offensive to non-Christians and to non-believers, and belies your earlier statement (in this very thread) that this forum is open to all faiths.

It apparently is only open to all faiths who are willing to listen to YOUR version of "the Truth".

I am very tolerant of Christians. As a member of a religious minority, I HAVE to be - I live in a country dominated by you people. If I lived in a Hindu country, I would be equally as tolerant of their believes, and hope that they would be as tolerant of mine.

My only brother-in-law is a Christian. His late father was instrumental in making sure that my middle of three nephews got to his bar-mitzvah lessons, and their entire congregation were aware that Bob went out of his way to do that. When Grandpa Hanst died, that entire JEWISH congregation mourned his passing formally, and they still annually observe the anniversary of his death each year, as a decent human being who was "a member of the family". We know how to respect a decent and loving Christian who respects us.

I DO understand that it is part of your faith that you must preach to us heathens, especially us Jews. But do you stand on street corners and do that by stopping strangers? Do you go into libraries and do it? Do you walk into Mosques and Synagogues to preach during services? Of course not - that would be rude. Well, THIS is NOT the forum for that, either - your Biblical forum is - which is why I choose not to go there.

This IS supposed to be a forum to discuss general issues of spirituality - not one vision of G*d's identity.

SPIRITUALITY is about how each of us connect to the divine. As individuals. As a recovering alcoholic, I had to find a new way of addressing G*d. One that was less formal and more personal. As a social worker working with addicts, I had to help them find paths to a SPIRIT which might NOT include G*d, but still allowed them to find Recovery. (The Twelve Steps Do discuss G*d "as we understand G*d" but doe not insist that members have an individual believe in a deity. Just a Spiritual connection with "A Power Greater Than Ourselves."

I feel sorry for you, my dear. You can never know that joy - the joy of discovering an individual relationship with a Higher Power based in exploring the deepest darkness of your soul when you've reached rock bottom, and finding a Light which shows you that there IS a Power Greater Than Yourself - and YOU can define it. Any way you need to.

THAT is SPIRITUALITY - the topic at the top of the page.
1028452 tn?1537452084
Dear Myown
Thanks, I feel like I am losing some of my friends in medhelp or may be people are too busy to waste their time, I don't know.
Dear Myown and Rainbow I think we all need to accept each other as a respected individuals before we go any further and if we don't, we should at-least stop any further discussions .  Mr. Rainbow you made a good point about spirituality which is true.
Now if you allow me for the last time, I say what I said :
fisrt I said : "Why don't you rely on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator ( we do that lot in Islam not very much in Sonny's Islam )
Did you know Hajar, read about her "
I have to correct that most people truely don't do that these days ( relying on God directly in heart with no third body intermediator )

Then I said :

Now think of the following points :

- Who have the greatest value before God ?
  We don't know because we are not God
-How Jesus is going to save those who lived before him ?
-Who would save people living in uncivilized wild natural places and have no idea of Jesus ?
( remember the man's choice at any time any place )

Hajar's story :
Did you know Haj is the most important necessity of every Muslim and people are supposed to go for Haj at least once in their life time( If they are wealthy enough).  They have to do 7 times circumambulation around Kaaba ( the holy place made by Ibrahim called the house of God ) and Hajar,s grave ( very close to Kaaba ) and after that they have run back and fort  (not too fast ) 7 times between Safa and Marveh ( 2 mountains) showing the obedience of God for infinity, That was what Hajar did, disparately seeking for water to give to her new born son, Ismael and when she goes back to her son lying near the wall of Kaaba, she realizes that baby has hit the ground with his heel and a little water has come out there ( Zam Zam fountain ) .
I said all this to make my point.
The point :
The Haj is not accepted if you don't circumambulate Hajar's grave along with Kaaba ( even Ibrahim hasn't got that close ).............Why ?
An slave who has no support from nobody and secretly marries Ibrahim who is much much older than her ( about 80 years old ) and now when the baby is coming she has to tolerate all the blame by some people and leave home and go to hot desert ( like what Marya did ) and seek for water because she was told by God to do so,  She did that and when she got there, she did not just sat there in the shadow of wall and wait for God to do something for her, what she did, she stated searching for some solution, doing what she really could do, A mother who is willing to do anything to save her son,  that is why
I hope I could have made up my point now
I wish us peace in heart
1028452 tn?1537452084
and I did not received any direct reply, may be because being too busy, no hard feelings at all
let's dance
1398919 tn?1293845204
Chasidic Jews dance as a part of their worship. They sing a Biblical verse, or a wordless melody which repeats over and over called a niggun. And it's a simple, two step dance in a circle, or snaking around the synagogue. It can be quite exciting, and when you get into the spirit of that form of worship (I have belonged to non-Chassidic congregations which adopted the practice) can be a form of meditation.

And a heck of a lot of fun!

And folks, please note: Rahim is telling the KORAN'S story of Hajar, which is not identical to the version given in Genesis of Hagar. Same person, but the story is told from two different points of view, so it changes.

So Biblical "arguments" about Hajar are irrelevant. Wrong story.

If you do not understand that, rent the classic Japanese movie "Roshomon". (even if you DO understand it, rent the movie - it's GREAT)  Every character is telling the truth as he or she sees it - but it ends up a different story. The only one who tells the entire truth is the last person, who is has no stake in the story. And displays supreme, Buddah-like compassion in the last scene.
1028452 tn?1537452084
Thanks a lot Dear
I hope we stay healthy enough to be able to participate actively in our dancing turn
as long as we live.............. Amen
1398919 tn?1293845204
As long as we live, we have hope

And what was the first think that Issac did when he learned that Abraham was dead?
1028452 tn?1537452084
I think he went after Ishmael :
Where did Isaac go?  Well, when we next hear from Isaac in Chapter 24, verse 62, Sarah has passed away.  Isaac is about to meet Rebecca for the first time.  Here is what the text says: “Now Isaac was coming from the direction of Be’er Lachai Ro’i, for he was living in the Negev.”  So the Torah tells us where Isaac has been: he has been living at Be’er Lachai Ro’i.  And what is Be’er Lachai Ro’i?  We learn of it in Chapter 16 of Genesis. Sarah’s slave Hagar, who is pregnant with Abraham’s child, has run away from Abraham and Sarah because of Sarah’s cruel treatment of her.  She stops at a spring.  An angel of God calls to her and promises her that she will bear a son and that all will be well.  Hagar must return to her mistress.  Hagar calls to God and says, “You are El Ro’i”, meaning, “you are the God who sees me”.  Thus that spring bears the name Be’er Lachai Ro’i, The Well of the Living One Who Sees Me.  The son she bears to Abraham she names Ishmael, meaning “God hears”.

When Hagar and Ishmael are ultimately banished to the wilderness, I say they returned to this oasis, and Hagar raised her son there.  And apparently, this is where Isaac is living as well in the wake of the akedah.  What are we to make of this?

I say: Isaac and Ishmael loved each other.  I say: Isaac’s heart was broken when his brother Ishmael and his brother’s mother Hagar were forced to leave their home.  Ishmael was his brother, and Hagar was a second mother to him.  They were his family.  Isaac traveled there out of his yearning to make whole his broken family.  In some ways every family is broken.  We all share this yearning to make whole, to bring together, to repair the rifts in our families.  Sometimes we can make a difference, sometimes there is nothing that can be done.  Often, a death in the family paradoxically opens the door to healing.  Perhaps Sarah’s death opened this door.  I cannot tell you how many times I have spoken with families in which a family member is dying or has just passed, and a family member says to me: yes, of course, it’s terribly hard and sad, but we haven’t been together like this in so many years, it is really beautiful, too.  I haven’t felt this close to my family in years, they will tell me, it is such a gift.  It is supreme grace when this kind of healing takes place for a family; one cannot plan on it or count on it, but one can be open to the possibility, and ready to reconcile.  The Jewish name for this healing is teshuvah.

In my midrash, Isaac does teshuvah with Ishmael.  He does what he can to put their parents’ conflicts behind them, and to restore their bond as brothers.

The Torah gives us a signal that Isaac and Ishmael did indeed reconcile.  The next time we hear about the two of them is at the time of Abraham’s death.  The Torah says, “And Abraham died at a ripe old age…His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah… there Abraham and Sarah his wife were buried.”  Isaac and Ishmael bury their father together.  This alone would not be enough to assume the brothers had done teshuvah with each other, but the Torah then adds: “After the death of Abraham, God blessed Isaac, and Isaac settled at Be’er Lachai Ro’i.”  I say: Isaac and Ishmael reconciled, at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me.

For Be’er Lachai Ro’i is much more than a physical location, it is a state of being, it is a condition of consciousness.  It is the place where we are seen, truly, for who we are: children of the divine, unique individuals, beings of infinite worth.  It is the place where God sees Ishmael “as he is”, as a boy in desperate need of help, and responds.  It is the well that Jacob figuratively stands by when he approaches his brother Esau and looks him in the face for the first time, and exclaims, “Seeing you is liking seeing the face of God”.  We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me whenever someone says to us “you really see me”, and their defenses melt away. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we find ourselves peering into the bottomless wells of another’s eyes, and they into ours, and all preconditions and grudges and judgments momentarily evaporate as we face the mystery of our shared being. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me when we know that even on our deathbed the capacity for healing and love is ever-present. We dwell at the Well of the Living One Who Sees Me at this season, during these Days of Awe, when we ask one another for forgiveness, when we manage to cry over our losses and laugh at our foibles and approach one another with humility and love.

In my midrash about our first family, which is every family, reconciliation is sometimes possible.  Not always, certainly, but sometimes.  But for that possibility to ever manifest, like Isaac we must first make our way to Be’er Lachai Ro’i.  We must first stand where we see each other as God saw young Ishmael, as beings of infinite worth, precious in our eyes.  So may it be.
Avatar universal
I wouldn't know where to start. You are too much. Oh and btw, I don't think your last posts fit into the forum. You were discussing the bible and not ''your feelings," as you told me to do. So scripture is okay as long as it's you that's discussing it?

And Gee, I guess you didn't read that I said it more than once that our conversation was best suited on the Biblical Forum.

Ike, I could go into alot of what you said, but its not worth it. Your true "colors" are showing.
I see that you are very prejudice by your "you people" comment.
And the fact that you believe I think of others as "heathens."  I don't like when people put words in my mouth nor do I like when people twist my words.
BTW.....IF you ever do find a personal/individual relationship with a Higher Power, you won't be calling him "Higher Power". You will call Him Jesus....

I had a great day today in that a Jewish person that I have been doing some work for - he accepted Jesus today. So nothing can put me in a bad mood today - not even your rude post to me.
Shalom babee.
1432897 tn?1322963137
When does the throwing of the stones stop and the forgiveness begin?  Based on personal experience I have found it important to not worry about how the message is delivered.  The important thing for me is to understand the message so I can be of service in the best possible way.  When I start to focus on the shortcomings of others I begin to lose sight of the humble path i was placed on.  
1028452 tn?1537452084
Very good point,
1398919 tn?1293845204
Great Midrash:

Actually, he turns to his brother and says, "Let us bury our father together.".

If you notice, he was not at his own mother's burial. He is not mentioned at being at his mother's burial. He is in fact not mentioned as being with Abraham since leaving him after the attempted Sacrifice, which Jewish tradition says happened to him when he was an adult.

This was both sons forgiving their dead father for unforgivable acts of almost causing both of their deaths out of blind obedience. An act of great spiritual strength, I feel.

Here in Brooklyn, we have a large, very diverse Islamic population, and a large, equally diverse Jewish population. (some Sephardic Jews com from the same countries as the Moslems.) Just as the Islamic American community has to bear the burden of their fanatics, we, too, have bear the burden of OUR extremists. We have political extremists, and religious extremists.

We also have a wonderful organization called "The Children of Abraham", formed, with the help of some peace-loving Christians, to foster communications and community feeling between liberal Jewish and Islamic faith communities. I belong to a Conservative congregation, despite it's name, a liberal movement with a strong dedication to social justice. (If you look at the historic photo of Martin Luther King, of beloved memory, leading the March across Selma Bridge, his arms are linked with two bearded white men.One of them was the Chancellor of our Seminary, the other was the founder of the Reconstructionist movement of Judaism - originally a professor at our seminary.) We have been involved with the Children of Abraham since it started.

One Friday night, I was one of the members who acted as hosts to a vegetarian pot luck dinner and Friday night service for our Moslem guests. The volunteer hosts gave tours of our sanctuary to our guests when they arrived, explaining the features,  even opening the Holy Ark to show them the Torah Scrolls (we only put our silver on our  scrolls for the High Holy Days - they stay in the bank the rest of the year) We had a sample page to show the difference between the special calligraphy used on Torah Scrolls (which makes reading them more difficult, at least for me) and more modern Hebrew. We are proud of our building, on the National Registry of Historic Buildings for the unique architecture. We each sat with a guest to help them understand the Service. (The Friday night service is fairly short, but quite lovely, and has some very interesting Mystical symbolism built into it.) I escorted two lovely women from two different mosques, strangers to one another. So the program was helping the Islamic communities meet each other, too.

We have an annual peace march across the Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall.

A few years ago, our Festival of Succot (succos), when we eat outside in booths, coincided with Ramadan, and we hosted a mosque for a pot luck vegetarian luncheon (all of our frequent pot luck meals are vegetarian - many of our members do not eat meat) in our succah, explaining the significance, and allowing them to observe our various rituals.
The time came for one of the prayers, and we invited the mosque to use our lower sanctuary instead of the courtyard, which would have been crowded and public, We had to confess that when the original congregation bought the land in the early 1920's they could not get a plot which allowed them to build a synagogue that face East, as is the tradition. In fact - our Arks (we have one in each sanctuary) face WEST. It is an often told story that when our current rabbi lead her first service, she announced. "We will now raise and face east for the (18 Benedictions) Silent Prayer" The entire congregation got up and turned their backs to her to face the back wall!

Of course, the Imam had a compass - And TRUE east is actually the right corner of the back of the room. New Yorkers are used to "East and West" being defined by the grid of our  streets, which is not true north/south.

There is a major modern mosque in upper Manhattan built to True East, and it sits at an apparent odd angle in the middle of the plot of land. I actually think it adds character to the neighborhood. (I used to work less than a mile from it.)

Passing it one morning, when it must have been a major holy day, was a real education. I was on a buss stalled in traffic, so I got to observe dozens of people heading in; men in Arab robes; people in African dress; white people with blonde hair in suits and dresses; people in Indonesian sarongs...

Have a great, peaceful weekend
1398919 tn?1293845204
I originally started this as a few comments tacked on the end of my reply to Rahim, above, but as it grew, I decided that you deserved the dignity of your own, independent answer.

I am sorry if you misunderstood the intent of my comments.I am a writer, and so I used, "you people" to avoid repeating in the same sentence "the majority population, the Christians", not meaning it in the pejorative, separatist sense in which you took it. I don't see how you failed to see my mention of the religious integration of my own family. I have always felt like a member of my brother-in-law's family, since the day they married and his grandfather addressed ma as ":grandson". And that was the second time we had met. I too mourned the sudden death of my nephew's grandpa - not for them, but because he was great man, who did all that I described even though he never understood anything about Judaism, and was not a particularly observant Christian, either. He had two strong faiths - the happiness of his family and making music (as a hobby) He was a great man, and my heart feels heavy as I type this.

I HAD expressed my feelings and personal philosophy: "While there is life there is hope." This is hard won for a man living with chronic depression, anxiety and pain. I have to say that to myself a dozen times each day, or I would have killed myself years ago - I almost did a few dozen times, and ended up in the psych hospital once. So it is NOT just empty words.

Then in response to Rahim's questions about Hajr/Hagar, I presented him with a minor Genesis puzzle, to which I was sure he knew the answer.Just an intellectual exercise, not a "proof text" to convert anyone. We are both Children of Abraham, as he pointed out. It was a little teasing game.

By the way, congratulations on your success. This is quite genuine. I know how important to your personal redemption this act is to you. And I also understand how empty your friend's roots, faith and traditions were to him, so if he gets spiritual nourishment in your church, I am very glad for him. I believe that we all need a concious connection with a Power Greater Than Ourselves, and if his connection with Judaism was not bringing him spiritual comfort and nourishment, than I am genuinely happy he has found a Spiritual home.

Again, not empty words, but my true believe. A member of my family converted to one of the major branches of Islam in college, even going to Court and changing his name. We all still love him, and didn't care what name was on his medical school degree, he was still our Prez (our childhood nickname for Alexander). He, on the other hand, has given up on any of the family ever calling him by his real name - his two aunts have been trying to get us to call them something other than what is on their birth certificates for 40 years - and gave up about 5 years ago. By the way, Ike is NOT the name on my birth certificate, but MY childhood nickname, the name my mother's dad used all his life. The schools made my parents top calling me that when I was 5, so my "kid" sister never knew the name. when I started using the name again, I couldn't get any of my relatives (on my dad's side of the family) to use it.

I am not as bigoted as you think I am. I am just asking to be allowed my Constitutional right to practice MY religion in peace. I pass street preacher's daily here in New York. Most would embarrass you, since they are hardly making a good representation of themselves as people, let alone preachers. But that is THEIR right - and I have the right to ignore them. I'm just asking  you to live up to your own statement that this forum is a welcoming, safe space for all faiths, and those of no faith.

The source of that Amendment to the Constitution was the strong believe on the part of President George Washington that non-Christians, who fought for the Revolution in disproportionately high numbers and suffered more under British domination when caught,  had an equal right to enjoy the fruits of the Revolution. Before the constitution was even signed, he wrote a letter to a synagogue in (I think it it was Rhode Island). The membership had written him a letter congratulating him in his First Inauguration, and he wrote back a beautiful and long letter instead of just a thank you, stating his belief that the Children of Abraham were equal citizens in this new republic, I interesting wording, since the  most highly persecuted in minority in America right now are the our sisters and brothers, the OTHER Children of Abraham - who also fought and died disproportionately high numbers in the revolution.

So many Americans think that the clause "Congress shall establish no religion" was meant that no particular Protestant denomination would be predominant, but that was never how that part of the Constitution was interpreted.

Unfortunately, our government and people has broken that promise almost as often as it broke its treaties and promises to Native Americans.

Perhaps what I'm trying to do is some education, that's all. If I insulted you, I apologize.

Ike (and no, I am NOT telling you my REAL name - I hate it and use it only when necessary)
1028452 tn?1537452084
Looks like there are a lot of similarities between Jews and Islam
You too have a great weekend
1462810 tn?1327364049
If this were the first thread I had read on this forum I wouldn't have read the second...  I came here in a very dark moment, looking for anything to help me lift my head and my heart.  I would have run from this discussion like a hare from a fox.  Lots of good points were made, I even wrote some notes thanking the posters for their shared views.  But the fact remains that my spirit would have withered rather than been revived.  

I am so glad this is not the first thread I read!
1028452 tn?1537452084
Agree with you
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