Submit??? Man...... Most of that stuff was written in a time where the male chauvanist was king.... it's sopping with chauvanistic view points.
Just wondering. How did God create Adam?
No. Lilith came into the world and she rejected adam. She did not want him or more she did not want to submit to him.
This story is taken all wrong all the stories are. they need to be "translated" again.
People should love and respect one and another no matter how the world would turn if we fallow this belief we could change the story.
God created Eve and she was alone so from her rib adam came. Later adam tempted eve to take a bite of the apple not fully understanding what he was doing.
The story could go both ways and we could just as easly have been that all men submitted to women and the world would be no better. We must love each other.
Submit is a power play who says we are to live a life of submission in all truth if you think of what submission asks for we can just say oppression. We are animals and we deserve to live free like one.
"a wife submits to her husband, and a husband sacrificially loves his wife."
A husband should love his wife because she is beatiful in his eyes, because she makes him feel complete.
I find that the biggest joke is we men always say women need us in there is truth in that but we need them more. Mental illness goes way up in males who dont have a mate while it only raises a little in woman.
Love Love Love
Why all that sound stupid its the only true way one day we will run out of power to fight wars one day we will die off in some way if by our hands. or by something else we will be no more and what leads this is that someone should submit to me the endless belief that someone is lower then me and should serve me. We are still slaves we just dont see it.
I get the play on the word "submit" now, but I like what you said about loving your wife because she is beautiful in your eyes and makes him feel complete. In regards to the simple meaning of submission, I really don't think I could love, honor, and or cherish a woman that always submitted..... it just isn't right.
The Adam thing..... I'd debate that all day, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not a very religious man, but I do consider myself spiritual. Something happened that got us all here, but I don't buy into the stuff I was force fed in Sunday School. And I guess the bible is like the laws in this country... it can easily be confused with ones opinion of whats written.
Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head, nor to be trampled under his feet as an inferior, but to stand by his side as an equal, to be loved and protected by him. A part of man, bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh, she was his second self; showing the close union and the affectionate attachment that should exist in this relation. "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it." "Therefore shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave unto his wife; and they shall be one."
Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. And the Lord said, "Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." In the creation, God has made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God - in harmony with His great law of love - they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she has fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. Had the principles enjoined in the law of God been cherished by the fallen race, this sentence, through growing out of the results of sin, would have proved a blessing to them; but man's abuse of the supremacy thus given him has too often rendered the lost of woman very bitter, and made her life a burden. Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan which has great responsibilities too. We see this everyday..
I agree with all you say and I'm somewhat the same. I believe but not sure what :P
I was hoping favored would comment again I like debate and i was wondering how they would contiue to support this idea.
Something lots of people seem to not know is societies with female gods women have more power and a more equal stance with man. Wicca or the old pagan beliefs have a priestess and goddess.
In the idea of submission we do perform it every day with and with out people we love. Do you submit to your boss at times, do you give in when people are arguing. These are all submissive states and it is a necessary evil that we submit to one and another at times but to purely submit at all times....You are a mindless slave. We need to be resisted at times for whatever reason. We need to have our views and ideas questioned to improve our self. Thus submission in its self is not bad. I dont god gave us the gift of thought for nothing nor would I think that every word that was written down from word of mouth though some clergy to being translated by some other political religious people should be taken as soon many do. It breeds homophobia, sexism, seperation, outcasting, hate, and so much more. Now I'm not saying that there hasnt been people who used religion for there cause but Christianity is often closed to other views. In fact in the JW you are never meant to study anything else because it is seen as decieving forces and your not meant to question the bible. well blah blah blah >< I'm going to religion to much.
The words of the bible give some hope and that is a great gift.
The words of the bible give some a means to do there plan
The words of the bible call me a sinner and send me to hell.
Cloud, you think things out and that's very good:) Not that I agree with you about everything. Alot I disagree but thats okay, its good to discuss things and you make good points all of which do have answers.
Okay, I'll start with this the JW you had said your family brought you up in. Well not to sound insulting, but JW is a cult. So that could have skewed your outlook on the bible. They have their own bible as you know and its not accurate..Their way of viewing salvation is "works," thats why they feel they "have to" witness. I witness but IF I never did witness to people that would not affect my salvation.
I will get into the submission thing later or tomorrow or maybe sooner, I just don't feel like typing though I am stuck in the house as we are have snow right now..
But anyhow you said "the words of the bible call me a sinner and send me to hell."
Yes, the bible does call you a sinner. It calls EVERYONE a sinner. BUT the bible doesn't send us to hell. The Word of God tells us of a way to PREVENT going to hell - a plan of salvation - Jesus.
So we can choose to accept Him and go to heaven because of Him - what He did on the cross. OR we choose to reject Him and pay for our own sins which means choosing to go to hell.
Its like this: I hand you a map and tell you, Cloud take your car and follow this road to get home. Okay so you look at me and say NO, I am not taking your map, I'll go home whatever way I want to go..
So then you start driving and the road leads you off the cliff and you die.
Did I send you to your death? OR did you choose to not take the map (bible) that tells you what road to take?
Food for thought?
But anyhow, see ya later, my husband just came home and I have to go submit to him and start dinner. LoL
Haha that last part made me laugh :P
I respect you and anyone who is will to stand by there beliefs. If I can sway you from them then you had already begun to doubt them yourself. I thank-you for the complaments and yes i was a little offended but I got over it quickly because thats your view and in some ways they act like a cult. I often dish out harsh words so I must always be willing to accept them back. If I didnt listen, think, and learn I would never have made it though the hard times. I probaly wouldn't make it though the hard times to come.
How JW is a cult. Once you are a member your never meant to leave to do so "those who leave an turn there back to the "truth" shall never wake from the long sleep and shall be forgotten" >< this ticks me off how dare you tell me That god and my love ones would not mourn my passing how dare you.
You suspose to marry someone in the "truth" lol my dad isnt a very religious type but he went ever sunday so he could marry my mom then once he got her he stopped lol.
I can't ever bring myself to read every page of the bible or to memorize it. I like the begining the best lol god created the world man and animals the end perfect story :P
I like the idea of a source to tell you the truth. That god is in everything and is apart of us. When we die I like to think we will all....ALL(i struggle with this part for there are those Who I would love to tech a lesson to but is that just apart of my faultiy humanity but that is so then is it only believable that what they have done was caused by there humanity) of us will return to the source and be given pure wisdom and then what happens from there well only god knows.
Let me ask you this. What if you gave me this map but instead of leading me to my path I only got lost in it and couldn't find it and in the end fell off a cliff and died. What if someone brought me the teachings of buddha and I felt enlightened and was happy for once. But I did not follow Jesus's route do I then deserve to go to hell. (JW says yes because I knew the "truth") But What if that was gods plan perhaps god gave us so many different beliefs because god saw that not all people found happiness in just a single belief.
I can't wait to see what you have to say about submission.
haha, I'm glad it made you laugh. I probably laugh harder at my own jokes than anyone else. I actually do sit here laughing at some of the stuff I write, though I usually think I am probably the only one who thinks its funny;)
Uhm, going to beddy by, but will get back to you as soon as I can...:)
You know I like talking to you! You're my buddy!:)
Hey cloud,,,I will be getting back to you hopefully later on when I have the time,,
BUT what I want to do is copy and paste your post in the Biblical Forum. Why you might ask? Okay, the reason is you probably don't even realize that your questions and statements are really, really good, I mean that...
And with that said, I have to separate each question/statement that I am going to address and then next thing you know others might jump in and say "this is not a bible study, but its about Spirituality," blah blah blah.
People have said that to me before and nothing against them, but I don't have the patience for that because there is NO WAY I can see how I can answer anything "Spiritual" without including my Faith and Jesus..
So you can reply back in the Biblical forum when I open a thread addressed to you. But if that makes you uncomfortable to answer in the Biblical Forum, which I don't think it should, but anyway, if it does, you can answer me in PM's again..
But I will say this - I think people benefit from hearing what you have to say because I think you ask things that hit the heart of people, I really do:)
See ya later or within the next few days;)
can't wait and yea your faith is spiritual I think that sometimes christianity doesnt like to be put in that boat for some reason.
I was a spiritual person long before i left the JW's and my mother would tell me not to say that to them because i would be.....removed there was some term for it.
:) You misunderstood me or maybe I am misunderstanding you...but anyhow Christianity IS spiritual, and that is why when I discuss things I would of course mention Jesus most likely in my posts,,,,,BUT it has been mentioned to me in threads more than once, if I remember correctly, that people thought I was making this forum sound like a Christian forum...That wasn't my intent, I was just answering things as to what I believe which is Jesus is Lord.
That is my "Spirituality." But maybe I don't get what this forum is really about..Its a mixture of different beliefs, but I shouldn't have to "edit" what I believe to "fit in."
I'm a Trail Blazer, so I never look to fit in.:) lol
John 4:24, "God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth."
You must not have understood me. I was trying to support you and I agree it is. I just know that some dont like it when you cal it that atleast the jw's dont
No you should never have to change your views to fit in.
I may as well answer it here as the question was asked here..
Okay first off God wants the wife to submit to the husband. It doesn't mean slavery, but it means final decisions should be made by the husband.
Let me give you some scripture as to why I believe this is what God wants and if GOD wants it, I am honoring God first, then my husband..
And its out of my love for God that I do it, so I don't feel like a slave at all. Unless my husband asks me to do something I don't feel like doing, then I hide all bibles in the house and pretend to forget the part about submission. hahaha j/k
"...and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body.For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.Nevertheless let each individual among you also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see to it that she respect her husband."
Okay so if you look at those verses, it's all about love not just submission. Husbands loving their wives as themselves. And if this is done you will have peace in the house. I know this as this is what we have in our house.
18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.
So again,wives are to submit, but also saying the husbands to love their wives and don't be harsh...
So what makes a woman want to be nice to her husband - L O V E. How does a woman feel she is loved by her husband? When he is kind, and loving, not harsh.
And what happens when a woman receives this type of attention and affection? - she gives attention to her husband in ways he likes attention.
okay so so far we see "submit" but I don't see any kind of slavery,right? Its seems like a 2 way street here...The woman submits to the husbands authority and the husband is to treat her as good as he treats himself...sounds fair?
does all this mean that a woman is less a person than the man no - they are equal, just different roles..
Here's a scripture to show everyone is equal:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Now here's the thing, its not like my husband beats his chest and says you do what I say. Its not that at all. We both discuss things, decisions. I can influence his decisions as I am logical and he knows it, so he respects what I say.
But in the end if we disagree about something I go with what he says only because I know if God wants it this way, its for a reason and that reason I think is the man needs to be the head of the house. Its just the way men are wired. They like to take care of their wives, well not all, but good husbands do.
Don't get me wrong there are days I feel my husband is not making the right decision and I talk a blue streak trying to sway him.
Sometimes he sees and changes him mind, other times he says no and does it the way he feels best. If it winds up he was wrong, he is man enough to tell me and that is another thing I love about him - no ego at all.
He is just a real good guy and doesn't put on at all. Everyone that meets him loves him and so do I so its easy to submit to him:)
So let me know if this stuff seems fair or unfair, the scriptures, and do you see it differently now that you have read them because I know to just hear "submit" sounds not so good, but after seeing exactly what is in the bible, I think its not hard or unfair to submit.
As a man what do you think after reading thru the verses?
I'm still going to contend that in whatever text you try to use the word "submit" in regards to a relationship, it lacks the effectiveness of what needs to happen in a relationship. If your husband says, 'I am going to drive that car into the wall at 100mph" I am assuming that you wouldn't submit in this case....
You mentioned JW being a cult. I find almost all organized religion, in so that you submit to the prophet standing behind the pulpit. (And that's ok, that's your thing...) Submit means you are giving in, and there are just so many circumstances were giving in is not ok. Sexually for instance.... no means no. End of question, even if youre married, you cannot force yourself upon another. You can of your own free will submit, or you could fight. If you submit, you are saying that it is ok.... "I went along with it"
Keep in mind that there is specific way the husband is supposed to treat the wife as well. Nowhere above is it saying that a wife has to submit when faced with abuse or mistreatment of any kind. The husband is supposed to treat his wife with love and the wife should submit when treated this way. That's how I read it. Pretty simple.
You worded that well and you are right because you didn't add a twist to it in your mind nor allow preconceived thoughts/beliefs stand in the way of you receiving exactly what is said in that scripture and yes you got it right - it is simple, but ONLY IF or WHEN scripture is read with a clean slate/mind.
I know you have mentioned you haven't really gotten into reading/studying the Bible yet, so it did make me happy to see that you did understand by just reading what was said. Pretty simple as you said.:), but people make it complicated at times.
Yes I agree in what you said about Organized Religion. But Christianity - true Christianity is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it is Him who you are submitting to, those that are Christians. The man behind the Pulpit is part of what God has put in place - the 5 fold ministry in order to help the body of believers. Pastors are Shepards and shepards tend to the flock. That is why it is important to know your shepard as the Bible says there will be many that try to deceive the people in the last days. And of course we do see that as Gods Word is True. But there are also many True men of God who follow Gods Word and do care about their flock, congregation.
You guys have taken what I said as far too important... the word submit is antiquated and rather generic. If my wife just followed every whim I attempted to take us on, it wouldnt be much of a relationship. My wife has every right to be included in the decision making.... every decision.... and she has every right to make me have a second thought about any decision.
You folks can go ahead and submit in your relationships, but I prefer to keep my wife just as she is..... and she isnt submitting.