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1563145 tn?1295355974

HYPERTHYROIDISM WITH GOITERS/NODULES

Hi, I have several goiters and Hot nodules.  Very tired, getting severly depressed, losing hair, (I know this is weird, but I have gained weight) and very dry skin.  I have low TSH and slightly above normal T3 total.  My T4 Free and T3 Free are normal.  I seem to get worse as times goes.  I have been fighting with this for nearly 4 years now.  My goiters/nodules are also benign, however, I am just ready for them to get my thyroid out. I don't sleep at night.  My heart races all the time.  I have palpitations and  I am so exhausted.  This is really beginning to take a toll on me not just physically, but mentally.  I had to quit my job because I could not deal with the stress!  I would break down and cry at my desk.  How do you convice the doctor to take it out?!
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Avatar universal
P.S. On Friday 21st Jan 2011 I started supplementing with magnesium (min 400mg daily, in addition to intake from food), copper (minimum 6 mg daily) and potassium largely from food products (min 1,500 mg daily) I also took 3 teaspoons of Blackstrap Molasses each day which is high in iron and potassium (I think) and by Tuesday 25th (4 days later) I felt as if I could run a marathon - which I've never felt in my life! I felt great. I've had to stop the supplements for a while though as my doc wants to take my blood tests again next Tuesday and he doesn't want the supplements masking the test so I can't restart the regime until next Tuesday. But these are 3 nutrients you might like to research further. :-)
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Avatar universal
Thank you. Best wishes to you too. Hope you find a solution :-) Looking forward to reading your update.
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1563145 tn?1295355974
Hi!  Thank you for your response.  I live in Georgia in the U.S.  I have to go to see a nurse practioner Friday for bloodwork and she is all about natural remedies, so I thought I would ask her if she knows where I can get the hair analysis done.  Thank you so much for your input and please keep in touch with your situation.
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Avatar universal
Yes, I had to go on the internet to see what I and Se and Fe mean, they're just symbols for iodine, selenium and iron etc.

New info I've gleaned since my last posts are that if people are deficient in copper it can take 6-12 months before levels are rectified (taking a min of 6mg daily), however, we obviously can't avoid Vit C all that time, so just avoid Vit C for the first week or 2, then don't take more than 1gram daily after that. Actually 1 gram is loads, so I'm sure it's OK to eat 2 bits of fruit a day if desired.

Where do you live, I live in the UK so I don't know where you'd go to have your hair analysed if you aren't in the UK.  I just typed 'mineral hair analysis test' into google and it brought up a few sites. I tried to look for a reputable looking company, but apparently there is  no regulation governing standards, so some practices could be cowboys. I don't know how to distinguish the good from the bad really.
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1563145 tn?1295355974
Wow!  You had me until the last post!  (Confusing?!)  However, I am very interested in finding out more about the natural approach.  Who do you go to to have your hair tested?
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Avatar universal
THIRD AND FINAL POST Regarding the Johnson protocol for hyperthyroidism (some of this information can be found at www.ithyroid.com::

You can be hyper and hypothyroid at the same time in the sense that hyper is a copper deficiency and hypo is an iodine deficiency (primarily, though there are other nutrients involved). You will, at any instant, only have too much or too little thyroid, but you can have both deficiencies, leading to instability and rapid fluctuations from high to low.,,being OUT of control. It is hard (for me anyway) to get my copper levels up due perhaps to low HCL.

Johnson says you can recover (raise copper status) 90% in 6 months, 95% in 1 year. I believe he was a smoker and had to excrete cadmium, a copper antagonist, slowly over time. W/o cadmium poisoning, recovery may be faster.
He says you need:
•To make thyroid hormone: Fe, Zn, Mn, I, Co, Se (also mB12)
•To stop making thyroid hormone: Cu
•To absorb/utilize Cu, you also need: boron, silicon (a common vitamin excipient), lithium (some people need 50mg/day - used to move Cu into the cells), selenium (to chelate cadmium & mercury, also needed to make T3, also needed as antioxidant to protect thyroid from burning out), trace elements preparation (ensurance against some ultra low level element needed not determined yet).
•Magnesium is one of the largest deficiencies in hyperthyroidism. Copper is necessary for magnesium metabolism. Muscles need magnesium, especially the heart. He says 1g Ca:Mg 1:1 ratio every 4 hours slowed his heart rate while he was correcting his deficiencies. (Yes, he had to wake up at night to take another dose).

Johnson says to supplement the most depleted element first, as determined by hair analysis, as supplementing synergistic nutrients will further deplete the most depleted element, which will be copper.

Copper and zinc are both absorbed via metallothionein, MT, and they compete for available MT. Too much zinc will cause insufficient copper. Both affect the thyroid. Zinc will ramp up the thyroid and heat you up, copper will prevent too much thyroid and cool you down. Estrogen increased MT availability, thus after menopause many women have trouble absorbing copper and develop osteoporosis.

Jonson says B6 assists zinc metabolism, further depleting copper. He says large amounts of iron further deplete copper, and B12 and folic acid assist iron metabolism. He says when attempting to raise copper levels, discontinue: B6, B12, folic acid, Fe, Zn, Mn, I, S, chromium. This is, of course, problematic for us. I just avoid zinc and iodine and take copper all by itself w/o anything else to compete with it. I take it w/o food but Johnson says, like zinc, it can cause nausea and should be taken with food. Johnson was much sicker than me...some may need to get the book and follow it closely. He determined these associations by what made his own symptoms better or worse. Traceelements.com has a paper listing nutrients that compete with copper absorption and it names Vitamin C as well, as I recall. Johnson says after copper supplementation is begun to add back Fe, Zn, Mn, I, S, chromium, but to continue withholding B6, B12, and folic acid until Cu levels increase. He says B1, B2, B3, B5, biotin and Paba all work with copper and to take 100-500 mg/day (except he lists 1200 mg/day for biotin). He says niacin works better than niacinamide (no kidding -- hyperthyroidism causes cholesterol problems that require niacin to fix). He also says to take choline, inositol, glutathione (remember warnings about this. I take milk thistle for it and it's fine), selenium. He says if your thyroid burns it is a sign you are not getting enough selenium. He said to avoid fruits and make sure to get enough protein and fat. I have read independently that fruit and "too much" vitamin C can exacerbate low copper. Johnson says 1g C is ok, and elsewhere he says no more than 2g/day (which is what I take). He says antioxidants are paramount and cites a study showing hyperthyroids on drugs achieved normalcy faster if taking C, E, beta carotene, and selenium.

He says he has never found a multivitamin that would not make you hyperthyroid...the zinc:copper ratios sare always wrong. These are the desired ratios according to him:
men Zn:Cu 15:1 to 10:1
women Zn:Cu 5:1 to 7:1 (this is apparently due to blood loss, so not sure it applied to older women).
NOTE: the paper by Lowe I've referred to before found a ratio of Zn:Cu of 15:5 is what it took to reverse osteoporosis.

Johnson says to recover from hyperthyroidism: start with 2.5-3mg Cu/day work up to max 10mg/day. Most settle at 6-8mg/day for 6-12 months.

He says never to take immune stimulating substances in hyperthyroidisms -- just like the autoimmune hormones it will cause production of more thyroid hormone. He says not to take stimulants as they will also stimulate the thyroid. This may be why I could not tolerate coffee for awhile -- I am drinking it again.

Aside from low copper consumption, the following will cause low copper:
•smoking (cadmium antagonizes copper)
•eating large amounts of leafy greens (also a cadmium source)
•eating large amounts of rice, even brown rice (cadmium source)
•eating a lot of zinc

A reminder: Mary Shomon says 2-4g/day carnitine interferes with the thyroid function at the receptors and a study she mentions says as low as 1-3g/day can be effective. This is a bandaid but is particularly helpful.

Above post found at:  http://forums.wrongdiagnosis.com/showthread.php?t=9948&page=1499 [January 2011]


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Avatar universal
SECOND POST CONTINUED: PART TWO

Now that I had my thyroid somewhat in check, I went to see my Naturopath about how I might lose more weight. I exercise several times a week and was losing weight but I wanted more. My Naturopath suggested I would be a good candidate for HCG. She explained what it was, and I read as much as I could about it. I purchased the drops and went on my way with my modified blood type diet and HCG. I followed the protocol to the letter and I am proud to say that I lost 20 pounds in 40 days and I have not felt this good in 10 years. I have been on maintenance for 3 weeks, and I lost another 5 pounds and will be starting a second round of HCG this week for another 40 days. My goal is to lose another 50 mounds and get below 200 pounds for the first time in ten years.

After losing 40 pounds from my first Endocrinologist visit, normalizing my Thyroid numbers and getting my bad cholesterol down to half of what it was, I went to see my former Endocrinologist for a 6 month follow-up. I explained to her all about the work I had done and how I got myself to this healthier state. She said, “that is great you lost weight”. “Glad to see the Methemizole helped”. (she had no memory, or interest to read my chart, that I only took the Methemizole for 3 weeks and it nearly killed me) She said “your thyroid numbers are normal but you are still a good candidate for RAI or surgery”. “You need to continue to take your Crestore because that is the only way you can keep that cholesterol down”. I said, “wait, what?”

Amazing that I spent so much of my money over the last ten years for that kind of “help” form the almighty doctors!

McMillan Nelson

Very Simplified list….
1) Cut out all fast food
2) Cut out all processed food – No microwavable dinners etc.
3) Cut out all artificial sweeteners and anything containing Brominated vegetable oil and High Fructose Corn Syrup.
4) Cut out 99% of refined sugar.
5) Cut back on caffeine
6) Stopped eating goiteous vegetables. Raw Broccoli, Cauliflower etc. 7) Stopped eating ANYHITNG containing SOY .. soy really caused me problems but I never connected it. Soy is in so many foods you really have to read labels carefully.
8) Eat Gluten Free as much as possible.
9) I take a good Multivitamin Supplement and various other supplements - and Minerals based on Hair analysis which showed several deficiencies.
10) Thyadine 3 drops twice a day every day.
11) Exercise


Above post found at  http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/209378/My-Story---Simplified-Version?personal_page_id=938759 [January 2011]


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Avatar universal
Second Post PART ONE from Guy who cured his own nodules:

My Story - (Simplified Version) McMillan Nelson
Jul 06, 2010 12:43AM

I have suffered from thyroid disease and weight gain / loss for probably 10 years. About 7 years ago I started to ask doctors what was wrong with me. They told me I was depressed and gave me Prozac. They told me I had brain fog because I did not get enough sleep. They told me my constant exhaustion and weight gain was poor sleep habits (well yeah I could not get any normal sleep!) They told me the pain in my neck was muscle problem and told me to go home, and on and on it goes. One doctor told me my TSH was a bit low but nothing to worry about (so I didn’t) and on and on it goes. I went through 6 doctors in 7 years.

I went from being a normal sized man, 5.9 tall and 140 pounds in my thirties, to being 298 pounds exhausted and feeling hopeless in my forties.

Finally, last October, I went to one of those traveling health screening groups that ran several basic tests, including ultrasound of various arteries, and also the thyroid. The tech doing the scan says to me, “do you know you have cysts on both sides of your thyroid”? No I didn’t, nor did I know what that meant, but I was overjoyed! Yes, overjoyed, because finally, there was some kind of answer to all this misery about what was wrong!

I went to my doctor and he did the lab work and my TSH was .02 He sent me to an Endocronolgist who, with a new better ultrasound in hand, told me that I had Toxic Multinodular Goiter (Plummer’s Disease) and the only option for me was RAI or surgery. Nether of these options sounded appealing to me, and since there was no sign of cancer in the nodules, I asked, “are you sure there are the only two options?” She said , “Well I can give you Methimmazole, but that will only solve your problem in the short term, I thanked her for producing third option from thin air, and told her I would take the Methimizole and learn all that I could about my condition before I make any decision about any treatment.

So off I went fat, exhausted, brain fogged, and sleepless, off to the book store, and my favorite trusty search engine. I searched day and night for a cause of my disease, trying to find the answer from what others had done. From October to January I read 8 books about all sorts of thyroid disease. Among the most important was “Living Well With Graves Disease and Hyperthyroidism” In Chapter 10, I read “The Johnson Nutritional Protocol” Reading this chapter was like a light bulb being switched on. I have believed that my thyroid disease was caused in large part, to various deficiencies and a poor diet full of nasty chemicals like brominated vegetable oil and high fructose corn syrup and SOY to name just a few. This guy Johnson was really on to something here, his thinking was very much akin to my own. This chapter of the book saved my life.

As simple as it sounds, the old adage, you are what you eat really is true. I had a poor diet, I was lacking proper nutrition and I feel that over time, my body had great difficulty breaking down certain vitamins and nutrients.

After reading these many books, and this single chapter of this book in particular, I found my direction. First I had to correct what I was eating.

I weighed 298 pounds. I could barley tie my own shoes. My thyroid was going nuts. I had pain in my thyroid, and some problems swallowing. I had, before learning so much, thought that I could loose weight and feel better by eating “natural” granola with Soy flakes, fresh raw vegetables like Cauliflower and Broccoli for lunch, and would be happy taking my Methimozole. As I found out, For me, SOY and these fine group of vegetables was like kryptonite to Superman!

I stopped eating all fast foods. I stopped eating all processed foods. I went to see a Naturopathic Doctor, and went on the “Blood Type Diet” I am Type A. I was now moving in the right direction. I discussed with my endo the problems I was having with Methimazole and she took me off it and, we parted company for the most part. I visited the Endo once more for a 3 month check up, (but more about that later). The concept of me not eating steak and potatoes was very foreign. I did not think I could do it, however, once I got started I was amazed to find that I was loosing weight, approximately 2 pounds and week on the Blood Type Diet, and eliminating most dairy, refined sugars, meat etc, actually made me feel incredibly better. By this time I had stopped taking my statan drug since I was not ingesting animal fat anymore, except for some limited white cheeses, I also cut out Gluten and fund some delightful recipes and snacks that I could eat that were actually good and good for me!

During this time I was loosing weight, and feeling better, My Naturothathic Doctor put me on various suppliants including an iodine containing product called Thyadine. All these things, this new way of life, was like the difference between Night and Day for me! I did not miss fast food at all, and I was shocked, people in my office would bring back fast food lunch for themselves, and I could smell the grease in it from across the hall. How amazing this was to me that I had gotten to this point.

Remembering what I had learned from Chapter 10 in Mary Shomon’s book about the Johnson Protocol, and reading more at Mr. Johnson’s web site, www.ithyroid.com I decided to go a step further and see how true all this was. Was I really curing myself and loosing weight at the same time? I had my hair analyzed, The 22 page report I received was spot on, I was deficient in Copper, Magnesium, Manganese and host of trace minerals, as well as ratios of minerals that were way off. I took the report to my Naturopathic Doctor, and we fine tuned my supplements, and Increased my Magnesium . I had already been taking Copper as the Johnson protocol suggests, but had no idea how low I was in Magnesium. Within 3 days of adding 300 mg more of Magnesium, just as Johnson explains in the book, my heart palpitations and racing heart stopped being a problem.

I went to my family doctor for follow up lab results to see what my thyroid levels were now 6 months after starting this educational lifestyle changing journey, Much to my family doctor’s surprise, (but not to mine) My Free T3, Free T4 and TSH were all normal! And by this time I had lost 10 pounds on “The Blood Type Diet” and continued to feel good, but I needed to lose more weight.

Continued in next post PART TWO
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Avatar universal
Hello,

Hope the blood in the urine turns out to be nothing serious. Get well soon. :-)

Here's some more information I found out last night on different thyroid forums. They are really long so I'll have to put them on 3 or more posts. It's so rare to find information about nodules with hyperT that I'm posting it in case other people with our condition find it useful too. The first two posts by McMillan Nelson outline how he got cured naturally from multinodular goitre and hyperT. The third post uses a bit of scientific language which took some concentration for me to follow; but there are a few names and nutrients in there which deserve further research. Like you I'm desperate for a natural cure for my condiiton, and I'll try anything within reason :-) and if my purse can afford it! Whether we choose to have our thyroid taken out or not is obviously a decision only the individual can make, but I've heard so many horror stories of people experiencing hypo symptoms even years down the line despite having their thyroid removed, that it's given me the eebie jeebies. I want to explore every other avenue first. Anyway, here is the information:


First Post:

Post By McMillan Nelson

Hi Everyone, today (September 20, 2010) marks 80 pounds that I have lost since December 2009. All of my efforts and learning about my Thyroid disease and natural treatment has been a total success. I take Thyadine every day with supplements and I feel terrific still, and my Thyroid numbers are “Normal” first time in over 7 years! I am here to offer my experience with conventional and what ultimately what worked for me, natural health treatment. I am here to help others with Plummer's Disease (Toxic Multi Nodular Goiter) I try not to be too opinionated about other thyroid issues that I have not personally experienced but I will help anyone with anything I am able to.UPDATE: Still feeling great and have lost a total of 80 pounds. My thyroid is normal and it amazes me every day how many things I can get done. I am working on a Podcast show right now, where I am interviewing various Natropathinc doctors and other healthcare professionals. I will let you know when I have the shows ready for air. My plan was based on the book by Dr. Peter D'Adomo "Eat Right 4 Your Blood Type" -Mac

Above post found at http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Thyroid-Disorders/Should-I-take-Iodine-pills/show/1132555  ;[January 2011]

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Avatar universal
You should not have to convince a docotor to remove your thyroid. My advice is to check with friends, family, co-workers to see if they can recommend a good doctor/surgeon. I just had part of my thyroid removed 2 days ago and I can tell you that having a good surgeon is one of the key things. A good doctor will listen to their patient.  Best Wishes.
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1563145 tn?1295355974
Hi,
Thank you so much for your information!  I will go to that website and read up on it.  I am willing to try anything to feel better.  My endo called me this past Friday and said she found "Chronic" blood in my urine and now I have to go to a Urology Specialists Tuesday.   I don't know if my thyroid can cause this or not. :(
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Avatar universal
Hello, I'm new to this group,

I too have been recently diagnosed with multinodular goitre and hyperthyroidism. I'm about to begin a new nutrient regime which heals hyperT for SOME people. The 3 people I've heard about who were cured this way did not, however, (as far as I know) have nodules or a goitre. But I'm going to try the regime in the hope it will shrink my nodules. You can find the list of nutrients on a website called www.ithyroid.com. Some of the links don't seem to work but if you googled "ithyroid.com recovery from hyperthyroidism" it should take you to the relevant page. The main deficiencies for some people with hyperT seem to be copper, magnesium and potassium. Excess Vit C intake also prevents the body absorbing copper, so fruit and Vit C supplements need avoiding until copper levels are back to normal - which will be around a week or two, according to one person I've been in contact with who cured his hyperT through nutrients.

I've also just read from a post on this website that it's OK to ingest iodine even if you have hyperT. HOWEVER BEFORE CHANGING ANYTHING YOU CURRENTLY INGEST I RECOMMEND YOU GET THE GO AHEAD FROM YOUR DOCTOR BECAUSE THEY OUGHT TO KNOW WHETHER HIGH INTAKES OF THESE NUTRIENTS WILL INTERFERE WITH YOUR CURRENT MEDICATIONS IF YOU'RE ON MEDS, OR WITH YOUR CONDITION. I'M NOT ADVISING ANYONE TO BEGIN THIS REGIME. I'M ONLY SAYING THIS IS THE REGIME I'M GOING TO START :-) I had to say that because none of us can take responsibility for each other's decisions. Here is the information and the page reference from a post elsewhere on this site:

November, 2004, Issue

"Fatigue — An underactive thyroid typically causes fatigue. Iodine supplementation can quickly activate the thyroid and relieve fatigue. Dr Abraham reports iodine deficiency may harm pituitary-adrenal function in rodents. Your adrenal is essential for energy and stamina."
...
"Thyroid disease — When there’s not enough iodine to bind with cell membranes, it allows enzymes called peroxidases (which can damage those membranes) to wreak havoc and cause autoimmune disease, such as thyroiditis (Hashimoto’s or Grave’s)."
...
"While iodine will help the thyroid increase the production of hormone where necessary, it also inhibits over-release from the gland by giving thyroid enzymes what they want. These iodine-seeking enzymes that attack thyroid membranes can be normalized when they get the iodine they need. This old information is terrific news for the many people (usually women) who have been told

to have their thyroid removed to end hyperthyroidism. These draconian measures ensure the patient will have to rely on prescriptive thyroid hormone for the rest of their life. But iodine can completely solve the problem."

"Poor digestion — many organs need iodine, but can’t absorb it until the blood measurements reach very high levels. The stomach and salivary glands are two such organs, but they can’t uptake iodine in any significant amounts until the blood level reaches

100 times what the thyroid needs. Most people do not produce enough stomach acid as they grow older. I firmly believe low gastric acidity can be caused by iodine deficiency, as iodine promotes stomach acidity!"
...
"Breast, ovarian, and skin cysts — In addition to fixing almost all cases of breast cysts, iodine also has a remarkable healing effect on ovarian cysts, and even on skin cysts. (For the latter, I recommend rubbing in iodine right over the cyst.)"
...
"Dementia and glaucoma — Iodine is found in large amounts in the brain (including the parts of the brain associated with Parkinson’s disease) and the ciliary body of the eye, a possible factor in glaucoma."

Dr. Robert Jay Rowen

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Thyroid-Disorders/Should-I-take-Iodine-pills/show/1132555



Also this link may give you something to read to be going on with: http://www.donaldmiller.com/   and scroll down to the article, "Extrathyroidal benefits of Iodine". Good health to you! :-)
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1563145 tn?1295355974
Thank you Kristina for your post.  I am so confused about what needs to be done.  I just want to be myself again.  Although I am "hyper", I am exhausted all the time.  I have no energy.  I stay in the house all the time.  I know I need to have something done.  A few years ago a doc. put me on Tapazol but that did not change any of my symptoms from what I could tell. I am just so sick of doctors telling me for the past three years, "Lets just keep an eye on the Hot Nodules and Goiters and do another scan in 6 months.  How many more do they want to take or how many "6 months" do I have to go through this?
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548668 tn?1394187222
Sorry.. "Sub-clinical hyperthyroidism can be as troubling as full hypothyroidism"   I meant to say sub-clinical hyper can be as symptomatic as clinical hyper"!!
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548668 tn?1394187222
I had one toxic nodule and was diagnosed with 'sub-clinical' hyperthyroid, due to the overactive nodule.   I've since had RAI (instead of a hemi-thyroidectomy).    Sub-clinical hyperthyroidism can be as troubling as full hypothyroidism.      I remember being asked if I was sympomatic...  I answered 'no' as I was recoverying from another illness, had bad tendonitis, was on meds to sleep for a frozen shoulder, and didn't really no what 'normal' was!!    

As time went on I  discovered that my increasing exhaustion, breathlessness, insomnia, faster heart-rate and that continual 'wired and tired, fight or flight' feeling was due to the sub-clinical state.  I was put on a very low dos of anti-thyroid meds and felt great after only 4 weeks.   Following that I had RAI nine weeks ago (low-dose also to try to kill the nodule only).   It's likely I will go hypo at some stage soon, but anything would be better than how frightening the symptoms were getting to be prior.    You may need to be treated with ATD's prior to surgery.

Not all thyroid illnesses or outcomes are the same, but it seems consistent that our recoveries don't happen overnight, and are subject to some hard choices along the way.  Best wishes for some quick answers and assistance to getting you feeling better.  My TSH was undetected, T3 High end of normal or higher, and T4 normal.  Best wishes..
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1563145 tn?1295355974
I have actually seen both types of doctors.  I have had the needle aspirations as well as Uptake Scans and ultra sounds.  All which show I have goiters, hot nodules and cysts.  The needle aspirations was for biopsies which came back negative for cancer.  It's disheartening to know that if I do get my thyroid removed, I will basically be the same.  I just want my old self back.
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1503643 tn?1311518238
i'm sorry to hear you are going through so much pain and frustration right now. I am NOT one of the experts here on MH.  Just another patient looking for answers.

But I can share with you from my experience that removing the thyroid doesn't necessarily make things better. I had my thyroid and isthmus removed 7 years ago and I have had issues with similar symptoms ever since.

I don't know if you are just seeing your pcp or seeing an endocrinologist for your thyroid problem. What makes you call the nodules hot? Did they run an uptake or some kind of scan on your thyroid?

Have you discussed with your doctor about having a FNA (fine needle aspiration/biopsy) done on one of the nodules?

I pray you find answers soon and are able to start your journey to recovery!  :)
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