Hashimoto causing liver problems

[terri thyroid]

I was diagnose with Hashmotos 6 years ago - have never felt well on synthetics or natural Thyroid - feel good 2-3 weeks then become hyper - heres the strange part - I have symptoms of huge belly swollen & growing - horrible pain right side up under last rib - yellow eyes - vision terrible - depression - unable to urinate but once a day - moon faced - hair gets reddish tinge - hair thin brittle and falls out everywhere - I am health nut - run, work out - petite but must eat no bread rice etc - have abnormal cravings for protein - became lactose & wheat intolerant - stomach constantly making noise but never growls - don't get hungry but cant lose weight - thyroid gland always inflamed - trouble swallowing dry - mouth - believe I am unable to process protein - like starving kids with kwashiorkor have same symptoms - like this for 6 years my mom had same symptoms developed pancreatitis then scleroderma then died after suffering like this many years - drs think I'm nuts help!

[CourageToHeal]

Hi Everyone,  Well I may have some information on this topic.  Don't know if it will help, but maybe.

I had a horrible case of Hasimoto's and a few years ago, I had a total thyroidectomy.  Yup, they took out the entire Thyroid Gland.  I am on 137mg of Synthroid and haven't felt good since starting this medication.

Well, last month something strange started to happen.  My belly swelled up, my ankles and lower legs got pitting edema, I had terrible pains in my upper right quadrant of my abdomen.  I went to my family doctor - who is also a top Endo in my region.  He sent me for all kinds of tests.  Well, I am now on my way to see a Liver Specialist.  They took all kinds of tests for Hep A, B and C and they all turned out normal.  The ultrasound showed a very enlarged liver and I ended up with a systolic murmur.  The only clue he gave me about being referred to a liver doctor was that my blood test for Autoimmune diseases was elevated.  I am fully anticipating that I end up with an autoimmune liver disease.  I believe there is absolutely a connection and a genetic one at that.
In terms of genetics, my mother had a total thyroidectomy and then passed away 15 years ago during a liver transplant, from a liver disease, that at the time, they could not diagnose.  Don't mean to be a grim reaper.....but that is my story.  I hope it helps.  I will let everyone know exactly what this "liver" specialist has to say...

Autoimmune Thyroid and Liver disease in my humble opinion go hand and hand.

Thanks for listening.

[LazyMoose]

Do you have Hashimoto or Graves?


"If you investigate these studies you would have to be eating enormous amounts of these foods."

- False statement, sorry. This is not true for all, as in other people besides your self. Soy is not health for all.


I know from personal experience, I have Hashimoto (long time) and have a reaction to soy, others here do to.

If you notice no reaction, great.  Eating whats not good for you is a personal choice.

A lot of natural things are not good for you, Tobacco is natural to, and bad even if no smoke is involved. Many natural things have variable levels of toxicity, from irritants to natural poison.

I dont want people with thyroid antibodies to assume its healthy, as it is not for them, that's my point here.

[terri thyroid]

Hi - yes, I'm aware of that however - I eat just about all forms of soy and quite often and I also eat raw cruciferous vegetables and tapioca - again not recommended due to interference with thyroid - I eat what is healthy period. If you investigate these studies you would have to be eating enormous amounts of these foods. I eat what is healthy :-D

[LazyMoose]

quote "(sorry I don't buy the crap about soy being bad for thyroid)"

- There is a difference between fermented soy and the other types. Some people have a direct and quick reaction to it, and they most likely have destructive antibodies. Autoimune thyroid DISEASE (Graves or Hashimoto) is a complete different animal than regular hypo or hyper.

For others reading this: many feel better after removing soy from their diet. Soy milk can mess with thyroid hormones in Hashimoto and Graves Disease.

[terri thyroid]

Hi - I saw your message - I haven't been on here in an age. I found a doc in Oregon who believed everything I said and had 11 other patients just like me. We don't test positive for Graves disease antibodies but we have hypo/hyper alternating symptoms. He put me on synthetic levothyroxine w/ a tiny bit of cytomel already in and it's compounded at a compounding pharmacy to my exact dose. I still don't eat wheat so I'm great with everything now. Only problem is skin above my eyes and most of my body has slight edema but nothing like before. I just live with it since I feel better than ever. My thyroid hormone pills have no preservatives, dyes, etc. I take them right before I go to bed and I sleep wonderfully well, wake early and run every morning. I take many supplements at doses told to me by doctor most importantly 5000 units vitamin D which just gets me in normal range. Folks w/ thyroid disease don't absorb D well. I drink soymilk in my coffee (sorry I don't buy the crap about soy being bad for thyroid). Asians are the healthiest people ever and they eat loads of it. Anyway, no hydrogenated oil, high fructose corn syrup and salad twice a day w/ olive oil & vinegar, lots of fruit, veggies, and yeah I cheat and have dark chocolate. Excercise is key to good health! I haven't had any bad days in a while so I hope some of that might be something you might try. Oh, and 2000 mcg fish oil (no mercury from small fish) and lots of C, B, multi. Calcium is a great thing because it stopped the restless leg & helps with sleep so I take it in the evening a few hours before my thyroid hormone. However, if you need thyroid take it - not everyone has problems just need right doc and dose and brand you like. Good luck :-D

[LazyMoose]

Did you have a Liver / Hashimoto question? - that was this threads heading.

Please start a new thread for new questions.

The holistic approach will NOT manage your thyroid if you have Hashimotos.  

"Am I being naive and too optimistic?" - well, yes, you said it,not me.

Its about hormone levels.  I am being very straight forward, but too many people ask this question. Your body needs the right amount of hormones. And hypo thyroid 'drugs' are synthetic or natural hormones, not really drugs or meds. Some herb or bark of a tropical tree or lizard claw is not a thyroid hormone.

take care

[kiwikater]

I am 33 years old.My mother has Graves - of which now she is on hormones. My brother has Anklylosing Spondilities. And I have hashimoto. I was only diagnosed last year.
For the past 6 years I have had bowel issues - although it has taken me this long to figure out it was actually the gut.Mood swings, hair losss, sudden depression, emmense bloating, fatigue, yellow eyes, dry mouth, always thirsty,fluctuation bowel movements. After cutting out wheat, and then gluten I found things didnt really change.

Since then I came across CArol Sinclair's book on a starch free diet which is a life saver for IBS and AS sufferers. It mentions the links between auto immune diseases and gut related illnesses. I am almost thinking that it was my bodies inability to process starch all these years that has actually triggered the auto immune disease in me and kick started the 'let's beat up on your thyroid' message to the rest of my body. I am not scientific, but that is my gut instinct.

I cannot stress how cutting startch completely out has changed my life! I do not have to have a million wrap dresses and three different sized trousers in my wardrobe anymore. I have energy and am positive. I am not living in the toilet. I sleep perfectly. I am in LOVE again with my life.

So here is my question - I know that at some point in the future my hashimoto will worsen. I have my bad days, and they are getting worse. For example today I couldnt go to work - I could barely move out of bed,my joints were stiff, palpitations, super thirsty, head throbbing and stomach going balistic! tHe worse yet.

Does or has anyone out there been able to manage their thyroid issues WITHOUT doctors and hormones. Just reading these threads and all the different doses and backwards and forwards trips to specialists have sent me in a panic. I am super holistic and believe nature has it's cures - ultimately through diet and lifestyle.

Am I being naive and too optimistic?

I want to know how I can best prevent a worsening onset of this autoimmune disease.

Has anyone been able to do this out there?

Thanks
Kate

[terri thyroid]

Hi - thanks for your post - yes,, I think im Hashitoxicosis too - I always kept thinking just too sensitive too thyroid meds - had a hard time accepting I would always be like this up/down so I thought maybe there was  a majic level, medicine etc that would balance me - I now accept it but still plan to keep fighting it - discovering this is common problem lets me know its not all in my head - I appreciate your info about RAI - I hope to keep hearing how you & Graveslady and others are doing - I'm waiting to get in to doc for referral for mri - Ive never had this think looked at only felt up - ha ha - am getting much better at catching levels when theyre off - also talking to doc about gastroparesis - saw a post from Doc Lupo and bingo - thats what happens when Im too high/hyper worried was my liver - this website has lots of great info/insight - thanks millions Pam

[pjgovitz]

Hi,
I too have Hashis/Graves (Hashitoxicosis) ...after years of swings I was finally correctly diagnosed at the end of April 07, had RAI May 18,,,so far it was the best decision I've made, I can say nothing negative about it, I know there is scarey info out there, but I think most of it is untrue. I've been Hypo since two months after, and have been very slowly increasing my synthroid, the swinging has seemed to stop... Not reccomending, just telling my results, I'm very happy with the decision. I believe Graveslady also had RAI quite some time ago and hasn't regretted it...
Wishing both of you Good Health!
Pam

[terri thyroid]

thank you so much for explaining - I know you have to stay hyper to prove your point I had to do that twice for 2 different endos about the edema, hair loss, skin over eyes puffed out, huge belly, etc because they didn't believe me - so I know exactly why you are doing this - I understand too why you did the RAI - I too keep searching and listening for new info - my very best to you in your search - I sure hope the RAI works for you I have heard other people post about it and had forgotten in my reading what the anacronym stood for - when I have good weeks I think hey not so bad but then when I eventually go hypo/hyper because it happens in a matter of weeks for me then I'm not such a happy camper - but geez that going hyper is the worst feeling, hope your appointment comes quickly and I will send out the positive vibes your doctor SEES and HEARS what you're saying - do some nice things for yourself - you deserve that much.

[AR-10]

RAI is radioactive iodine treatment. It is supposed to kill the thyroid.
It is used rather than surgery for people like me who do not have a goiter or nodules. It is also used on surgery patients to "clean up" the thyroid tissue the surgeon could not remove.

Methimazole is a drug that slows your thyroid down, or shuts it down completely, depending on the dosage. It can alter your hormone levels so you are not Hyperthyroid.

My first endo tried to shut off my thyroid with Methimazole and had me on Synthroid to replace the hormones my thyroid would no longer produce. Why he didn't just give me less Methimazole and skip the Synthroid I do not know. I didn't know enough at the time to ask him.

I have been told I am a rare case, although I am not the only one here, and you seem to have the same problem. I am told I have Hashimoto's with Grave's as well. Beats the heck out of me. I cycle up and down. Meds are always wrong, and I can't stay at any particular level.

I'm sitting here right now Hyperthyroid and taking Synthroid just to prove my doctor wrong. Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? But I have to wait a couple more weeks to redo bloodwork, and if I stop taking the meds without telling her she will think the treatment is working.

But it isn't. As long as I have a thyroid, I will go up and down. No way to control it except to chase my blood levels with med changes after it's too late. That just makes for more ups and downs.

That is why I want RAI. There are drawbacks with that treatment too. More than I know. It is not instant relief. It could take a year for my thyroid to die after the treatment. The first treatment may not work. The dead tissue in my body makes me aprehensive. Will it continue to disintigrate? Will it continue to dump stored hormone into my system? Will it turn into some creepy calcified lump? If I knew ALL the possible bad things with RAI, I probably would not want it. But it seems like the best answer for me at this time.

I hate this stuff.

[terri thyroid]

Meant to ask you - is RAI the radiation to destroy thyroid or the actual Thyroidectomy? Is this done to prevent thyroid from going hyper even though you're diagnosed hypo (Hashi)? Is this only alternative other than the Methiazole (sp) ? Is that a form of hormone or what - I read alot when first diagnose but then was so sick of this didn't want to think about it anymore - had not heard of this drug before - if this is to lower you from hyper why would doctor not prescribe lower dose of synthroid or am I on wrong track here? Wish I was smart enough to do med school - would specialize in Thyroid - most endos do thyroid and diabetes but because diabetes more life threatening they don't spend time or energy with us. Never heard of research etc done on thyroid issues but my doc says to periodically check teaching hospitals for studies they're doing in case any on thyroid - keep it in mind.

[AR-10]

(quote)and dont you love how you say I feel terrible and they say wait 4-6 weeks and we'll test again - would they wait 4-6 weeks feeling like that - some of these endos wish I had a magic wand to give them thyroid probs for a month and see how they like it !!??(/quote)


Well, I sure won't argue with that one.

And I've lost a post or two myself.
One more thing we have in common. ;>)

[terri thyroid]

Hi newbee - meant to answer you too - yes - I too feel like crud @ tsh of 1 - what is with these tests that they say we should feel fine and dont' - remember tsh is a range which has changed several times in the 6 years since I've been diagnosed with Hashimotos - and thanks yes I do plan to ask doc about possibility of liver problems since Hashi does cause problems with processing protein which affects liver - of course now I feel great all symptoms gone because I lowered dose - AR-10 is right - I shouldnt recommend this for others - for me this is how I avoid going hyper my doctor knows I do this - she only tells me to up my dose when I let tsh get past 10 and usually by then I'm very sleepy and starting hypo symptoms - I've moved alot and therefore have had opportunity to have several endos, internists, etc - really has taken along time to find right one - just hope we dont move again - where I used to live met 4 women w/ Hashimotos and all 4 felt like crud - same symptoms yet labs showed perfect in range - heres the kicker - my endo was same as 1 gal had and my endo told me no one but me had this problem w/ good labs but felt bad - I told him I know your other patient and you told her the same thing - he blew a gasket and told me to find a new doc - I felt like saying ha, gotcha - anyway moved and did find new great doc - my best to you - doctor shop - its just time consuming aggravating -  and dont you love how you say I feel terrible and they say wait 4-6 weeks and we'll test again - would they wait 4-6 weeks feeling like that - some of these endos wish I had a magic wand to give them thyroid probs for a month and see how they like it !!??

[terri thyroid]

just reread my very long journal and meant to say when getting sleepy know I'm going HYPO not hyper - see I'm a fast talker (like on Seinfeld) but my typing skills cant keep up - am I confusing???

[terri thyroid]

no, you didn't upset me - I just am so afraid when I hear all these symptoms - very similar to mine when I go hyper like racing heart, too hot, weak, and yet we are supposedly Hashimotos (hypo) my knowlege is that hyper is way more dangerous to the body than hypo - I always relied on docs to get me feeling better so they would try to get my tsh t4 t3 in target range and for a month or so I was great - then wham - I would go hyper and stay that way - doctor would say youre nuts your test results are perfect - this went on many years until I finally went to naturopath who told me exactly everything Ive been telling endos -  she said thyroid works in healthy person as needed levels never same everyday - and yes we cycle hi & lo for those w/ hashi - anyway I tried natural synthetic combo of both and even did synthet/cytomel always always went hyper after a while - if I didnt reduce or stop my dose voluntarily I would probably have had a heart attach - I could go on with the list of symptoms but I can see from your post you know the ones I mean, heart fast, feeling hot , heart flutters, muscles twitching, etc what I'm getting at is I think this illness fluctuates like diabetes does yet we continue giving ourselves per our doctor same amount even though it gives us horrible reactions or worse yet take more drugs to reverse it -  I pray I never end up graves,thyroid cancer etc I really feel bad for those folks because their illness more damaging so they are my heroes - anyway I just think this going hyper affects liver because body is literally shutting down when going hyper (my theory) so much danger in being over than under - I see doc soon and am going to ask about liver tests - of course I feel fabulous right now as I had to cut dose in 1/2 and still felt a tiny bit hyper so I skipped taking yest & today and feel even better - so I'll stay like this until I get sleepy in afternoon and then will know I'm going hyper and will slowly go back on 1/2 dose - is this wise ?? I'm running everyday, lift weights, full time student, 2kids, husband, go to gym, cook, clean, social life - but let me go hyper and it all goes down the tube - still think docs are missing we cycle up&down - I will say prayers to God & Buddah & anyone who will listen for you - I want us all to feel better without overdosing - my best to you & I typed this once b4 but it disappeared - yeah I'm a computer whiz!

[AR-10]

I just started seeing a new Endo in July, because my other Endo was three hours away and it was too far to go when I was ill. I also did not want to continue with the course of treatment he had me on because it was not working.

He had me on Methimazole to theoretically stop my thyroid from producing hormones, and synthroid to replace those hormones. I stayed hyper for another nine months while my GP tried juggling the dosages, without success.

I told him in June I didn't see any sense in continuing on this way, and I wanted to see an Endo closer to home. He agreed and found me an Endo 100 miles away.

We discussed my history, and I thought she had a clear understanding of the problems I have been having for over a year.I told her I wanted either surgery, my first choice, or RAI. She talked me into RAI, and then things went badly. She took me off Synthroid and left me on Methimazole. My TSH went to 120. She told me to stop taking the Methimazole. I said goody, let's do RAI. She said TSH is too high to do RAI.

I should have known right then I was in trouble. I know now she could have done RAI.

She puts me back on Synthroid and gave me the usual six week bloodtest speal. I told her I would go Hyper. She told me she was not sure my thyroid was functioning at all, and to take the meds. She could have tested my thyroid for function, but she just had me wait to see what the meds would do. I told her I would wait three weeks, no more, for bloodwork.

My TSH went down to six point something, and THEN she decided she wants to try to treat me with meds rather than RAI. She cut my dosage in half. I told her I would go Hyper. She told me she knew best, take the meds, retest in four weeks.

Now I am Hyper again.

Blood tests are still two weeks off and I feel like my heart is going to burst. I'm almost to the point I don't care anymore. I'm going to wait two more weeks if I can, and then show her that her experiment was a mistake, and let her know she took two years off my life and cost me lost wages to boot. Maybe I can shame her into treating me effectively.

I know two years ago when I was first diagnosed Hypothyroid, I felt awful. Don't know what my TSH was then, but it wasn't over 10.

Actually, I went to another GP at that time with classic symptoms of Hyperthyroiism, but the bloodwork came back indicating Hypo, so that is what I was treated for. Sometimes I cycle back and forth several times a week, so bloodwork means nothing to me and my sypmtoms are always "I feel awful". I didn't know I had Hashimoto's until I wound up in the ER for the third time with heart symptoms and the treating physician said we have run lots of tests on your heart, something else is wrong, and I want you to see this other GP.

He ran test that showed I was extremely Hyper and took me off my Synthroid. He diagnosed me with Hashimoto's after running antibody tests. Then we started looking for an Endo, which turned into a long process.

I feel terrible when I am Hyper. I feel terrible when I am Hypo. I feel terrible most of the time because I have been going up and down and my body is not getting any time to heal.

I think I will be very fortunate if someone can get me leveled out before I have permanent heart damage.

I haven't felt "fine" in over two years, closer to three. I don't remember what it feels like anymore.

I guess if you feel good with a TSH of 10, then that is your body and it works for you. I am learning that every patient is an individual, and we all have different needs, level wise. I just have never heard anyone else say being Hypo was where they feel best, and I doubt it will work for very many people just because it works for you.

You are deliberately keeping yourself Hypo.

Is it better than being Hyper? Probably.
Is it better than being Euthroid? It doesn't sound like it.

Not trying to be hurtful or mean, but that is my opinion. If I hadn't been Hyper, depressed, and frustrated I would have worded my last post a little more diplomatically.

Sorry if I upset you.

[terri thyroid]

so sorry - should have been more clear - when I go hyper this is what happens - this doesnt happen when I stay low - I know going hyper can be more damaging to heart, eyes etc and I feel so much worse being hyper then when I cycle back down and am feeling low - I realize everyone is different - do you feel fine for awhile and then start having symptoms of hyper thyroid? does your dr have you taking another medication to bring you back to correct tsh level or how do they treat - Im curious - sorry didn't make myself clear ?? I've seen many drs as Ive lived in many states and have had some really bad endos and really been ill when theyve told me test results are fine and they did look fine on paper except I had double vision racing heart fluid buildup huge - they put me on diuretics - muscles in arm jumping so much I had to sleep on my arm - hair fell out - depression - now I watch very carefully for hyper symptoms and these always happen if I go on dose drs recommend current dr says she is okay with my tsh@ 10 or under as long as I dont have bad hypo symptoms - does that make things clearer ??

[AR-10]

I have a hard time understanding how you think your form of treatment is helping you when you trot out a list of ailments that would scare the hell out of me and then say you feel great.

Except for a huge belly, gastric problems, and what sounds like liver failure. Other than that, you feel you know more than the doctors and treating yourself is better than listening to them.

Telling sick people to deliberately stay Hypo seems a little bizzaro. You may think it works for you, but look at your first post.

[terri thyroid]

hi - heres the lowdown for me I cant go under 10 tsh or I go hyper - @ 1 tsh Im in bed sick w/ edema, heart palps, hair loss, depression , gastro problems 2 numerous to count, yellow eyes ad infintum - the symptoms for hypo - hyper are very similar - until you've had this a few years and tracked all your tsh t4 t3 levels and journal your symptoms - garden variety low thyroid is way different from Hashimotos because we cycle between 2 fast 2 slow but symptoms very much the same because when you stay hyper too long your body shuts down I believe to protect itself - I stay low very low and do many many health things to stay fit - my doctor works with me shes great - I finally realized I cant go according to everyones range of tsh level - I go by how do I feel - best indicator - Ive been to 3 endo 1 neurol and naturopath and now best results with smart young internist who has no problem with natural thyroid - unheard of - I too had "perfect" tsh range and felt like dying - now I stay hi tsh and feel better and  t4 t3 @ low end - knock on wood Im okay now - good luck and doctor shop if you need to

[Newbee2000]

Hi, I don't know much about the relation between thyroid and liver, but I also have hashimoto's and was hypo until recently. As of three weeks ago my TSH came down to 1 (which is the target nummber and the tsh number when one should begin to feel again) but guess what I still have  symptoms and neuropathies (tingling feet, numb hands, dry eyes, constipation, and heart palps which I've had since becoming hypo - NOT hyper) and feel unwell. My endo has no advice or explanations for me and is sending me back to neurologist. I saw neuro earlier this year and ALL neuro tests/scans were normal!!! At this point, I'm starting to thinking that having HASHIMOTOS is the cause of many symptoms (not just being hypo).--- Have had extensive blood labs done to check for other conditions??? Have you had a liver or abdominal scan to rule out other conditions? I would also suggestion you get a second opinion for liver and abdominal proble from a gastroenterologist!- I haven't been impressed by any of the endocrinologists who I've seen, not even with their knowledge of thyroid!! It's more like a LACK of knowledge of thyroid!!! -- You may need to do some work to find the right MD to get a proper diagnosis or explanation of what is happening to you. -- Good luck!!!

[terri thyroid]

gosh do I hear you on the euthyroid - I was like that in my 20s and didn't know how great that is compared to this - believe it or not Im back @ 1/2 dose for past week and a half and feel fabulous - have been told by naturopath that working thyroids release different amounts @ different times due to aid of tsh from pituitary and we treat w/ dosages that never vary and then wonder why we become hyper - makes sense - I would never do the radiation deal if that is the RAI - repeat never - because you can't undo if it isnt good and just like Hashimotos some have good luck with rx and others like us don't - I too would love to be cured - heard that stem cell research shows alot of promise especially for the immune system disorders - maybe someday - my mom had Hashimotos and never would take the thyroid hormone so she felt like hell and I didnt even know it except she had all same symptoms I do now and her doctors kept treating her for heart condition, acid reflux, diuretics for water retention ad nauseum etc etc and it was all thyroid but I didnt find out until years after she died and feel so sad if I had known could have helped her research find help etc my mom was like me small athletic very outgoing and became overweight depressed unhealthy - I will fight this damn thing like I have been for 6 years and wont give up - I go for accupunture next week - I know many people with immune system problems who swear by it - its worth a try - my best to you AR-10 keep me posted on your progress - if I seem chatty (I am very) this is my first time in a chat room - it helps so much to know there are lots of us - a big thanks to you for reading all this !!

[AR-10]

Yes, it is ironic.

If I don't take Synthroid I go Hypo. If I take the Synthroid I roll along and eventually I go Hyper. And as you say, once you go Hyper you don't go back with gentle nudges to the meds.

That is a horrible way to treat this disease.

I don't want to be Hypo. I don't want to be Hyper.

I want to be eurithroid, like I was when I was twenty.

The symptoms of Hypo are dibilitating for me in my profession. The symptoms of Hyper are dibilitating and eventually will kill me, because of damage to my heart.

I want to be eurithroid.
I want to be cured.

Have you ever considered RAI?

[terri thyroid]

sorry - forgot to mention I havent tried Methiazole (sp) but probably wouldn't as I dont want to take anymore rx than I have to and believe going hyper is body's way of saying there is a build up of too much so I would rather cut back even if it means getting tired - I even tried doing 2 days 1/2 dose then 1 day full 75 but found I still built up speed until I went hyper so now I'm just staying low and just occasionally doing 75 when I start getting really tired or hypo symptoms get really annoying - this seems to work best - funny thing back in the day when I was a teenager and we did drugs we shouldnt have speed type drugs did the same thing to the body - you would be zooming along and then body would shut down from too much stimulation - same symptoms too - scabs and bumps in scalp - hair loss - edema etc so thats why I still think being hypo is lesser of 2 evils rather than getting hyper - ironic isnt it