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Help changing from T4 Levothyroxine to Naturethroid
I'm wondering if I could get to advice as to how much Naturthroid to start verses my Levothyroxine.
I have looked up the conversion from Naturthroid's website, but everyone says to go slow.
I just had blood work done last Thursday (2-28-13). I haven't gotten the lab report yet, but hoping I will from my doctor's office today.
I know I'm probably asking to soon before you have my new labs, but I am wanting to get some good advice .
As of January 10, 2013, I had to titrate up from around 87 to 100 mcg. due to my labs done on that date. After about 4 weeks of taking the new dose I felt very hyper and requested to have labs done 2-28-13 (doctor wanted me to wait until 3-13-13, but I couldn't. I knew/know something is very wrong inside me right now.
I am a bit of a wreck and after talking to a friend who takes Naturthroid, she suggested I take it rather than T4 only. She believes I have RT3 going on and says going on NTH will do me better, but I don't want to start to high on this combo T med.
By the way, these are the Lab reports I am waiting on from my doctor's office: TSH, FT3, FT4, RT3. In addition, the doctor also ordered, which is really a waste of money and is redundant, the TSH reflex to abnormal FT4 (which it means, if the TSH is abnormal, test the FT4)! Sheesh, we were already testing the FT4 and TSH.
My prior Labs were taken on 1-10-13 - 9 am at LabCorp (87 1/2 mcg) Doing the 75/100 every other day to average this amount (I only use 50 mcg tabs due to dyes):
CBC With Differential/ Platelet
WBC 8.5 4.0-10.5 x10E3/uL
RBC 5.22 3.77-5.28 x10E6/uL
Hemoglobin 15.0 11.1-15.9 g/dL
Hematocrit 46.1 34.0-46.6 %
MCV 88 79-97 fL
MCH 28.7 26.6-33.0 pg
MCHC 32.5 31.5-35.7 g/dL
RDW 13.6 12.3-15.4 %
Platelets 371 140-415 x10E3/uL
Neutrophils 62 40-74 %
Lymphs 31 14-46 %
Monocytes 6 4-13 %
Eos 0 0-7 %
Basos 1 0-3 %
Neutrophils (Absolute) 5.4 1.8-7.8 x10E3/uL
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.6 0.7-4.5 x10E3/uL
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 0.1-1.0 x10E3/uL
Eos (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2 %
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL
Glucose, Serum 93 65-99 mg/dL
BUN 14 6-24 mg/dL
Creatinine,Serum 0.89 0.57-1.00 mg/dL
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 73 >59 mL/min/1.73
eGFR If Africn Am 84 >59 mL/min/1.73
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 16 9-23
Sodium, Serum 140 134-144 mmol/L
Potassium, Serum 4.6 3.5-5.2 mmol/L
Chloride, Serum 100 97-108 mmol/L
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 20-32 mmol/L
Calcium, Serum 10.3 (H) 8.7-10.2 mg/dL
Protein, Total, Serum 7.4 6.0-8.5 g/dL
Albumin, Serum 4.8 3.5-5.5 g/dL
Globulin, Total 2.6 1.5-4.5 g/dL
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.7 0.0-1.2 mg/dL
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 91 25-150 IU/L
AST (SGOT) 21 0-40 IU/L
ALT (SGPT) 25 0-32 IU/L
(I cut back on Calcium to only 1 pill daily instead of 3 - Doc was worried about me possibly getting kidney stones etc.)
Other tests taken:
TSH 8.220 (H) 0.450-4.500 uIU/mL
T4,Free(Direct) 1.35 0.82-1.77 ng/dL
FT3 2.6 2.0-4.4 pg/mL
Vitamin B12 1221 (H) 211-946 pg/mL
(I've heard this is okay being this high from research)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 67.8 30.0-100.0 ng/mL
(I increased an addt'l 2k IU)
Iron Bind.Cap. (TIBC) 353 250-450 ug/dL
UIBC 210 150-375 ug/dL
Iron, Serum 143 35-155 ug/dL
Iron Saturation 41 15-55 %
Ferritin, Serum 54 13-150 ng/mL (could be a lot better, but haven't done iron yet)
Cholesterol, Total 291 (H) 100-199 mg/dL
Triglycerides 105 0-149 mg/dL
HDL Cholesterol 81 >39 mg/dL
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 21 5-40 mg/dL
LDL Cholesterol Calc 189 0-99 mg/dL
(This is the highest it's ever been in my life. I will not take Statins...period)
Of course, once I have my new labs as stated above, maybe someone can help me know where to start with NTH. My doctor will allow most likely, but she may not know how much I should start and how soon to titrate. I don't want to be more of wreck than I already am and have been for the past month!
Thanks so much and hope someone with good knowledge can help me figure this out before my next doctor's appt, which I can get sooner than 3-15-13 (of course, I'm sure it will be based on my new labs of 2-28-13)
Debi
I have looked up the conversion from Naturthroid's website, but everyone says to go slow.
I just had blood work done last Thursday (2-28-13). I haven't gotten the lab report yet, but hoping I will from my doctor's office today.
I know I'm probably asking to soon before you have my new labs, but I am wanting to get some good advice .
As of January 10, 2013, I had to titrate up from around 87 to 100 mcg. due to my labs done on that date. After about 4 weeks of taking the new dose I felt very hyper and requested to have labs done 2-28-13 (doctor wanted me to wait until 3-13-13, but I couldn't. I knew/know something is very wrong inside me right now.
I am a bit of a wreck and after talking to a friend who takes Naturthroid, she suggested I take it rather than T4 only. She believes I have RT3 going on and says going on NTH will do me better, but I don't want to start to high on this combo T med.
By the way, these are the Lab reports I am waiting on from my doctor's office: TSH, FT3, FT4, RT3. In addition, the doctor also ordered, which is really a waste of money and is redundant, the TSH reflex to abnormal FT4 (which it means, if the TSH is abnormal, test the FT4)! Sheesh, we were already testing the FT4 and TSH.
My prior Labs were taken on 1-10-13 - 9 am at LabCorp (87 1/2 mcg) Doing the 75/100 every other day to average this amount (I only use 50 mcg tabs due to dyes):
CBC With Differential/ Platelet
WBC 8.5 4.0-10.5 x10E3/uL
RBC 5.22 3.77-5.28 x10E6/uL
Hemoglobin 15.0 11.1-15.9 g/dL
Hematocrit 46.1 34.0-46.6 %
MCV 88 79-97 fL
MCH 28.7 26.6-33.0 pg
MCHC 32.5 31.5-35.7 g/dL
RDW 13.6 12.3-15.4 %
Platelets 371 140-415 x10E3/uL
Neutrophils 62 40-74 %
Lymphs 31 14-46 %
Monocytes 6 4-13 %
Eos 0 0-7 %
Basos 1 0-3 %
Neutrophils (Absolute) 5.4 1.8-7.8 x10E3/uL
Lymphs (Absolute) 2.6 0.7-4.5 x10E3/uL
Monocytes(Absolute) 0.5 0.1-1.0 x10E3/uL
Eos (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.4 x10E3/uL
Baso (Absolute) 0.0 0.0-0.2 x10E3/uL
Immature Granulocytes 0 0-2 %
Immature Grans (Abs) 0.0 0.0-0.1 x10E3/uL
Glucose, Serum 93 65-99 mg/dL
BUN 14 6-24 mg/dL
Creatinine,Serum 0.89 0.57-1.00 mg/dL
eGFR If NonAfricn Am 73 >59 mL/min/1.73
eGFR If Africn Am 84 >59 mL/min/1.73
BUN/Creatinine Ratio 16 9-23
Sodium, Serum 140 134-144 mmol/L
Potassium, Serum 4.6 3.5-5.2 mmol/L
Chloride, Serum 100 97-108 mmol/L
Carbon Dioxide, Total 23 20-32 mmol/L
Calcium, Serum 10.3 (H) 8.7-10.2 mg/dL
Protein, Total, Serum 7.4 6.0-8.5 g/dL
Albumin, Serum 4.8 3.5-5.5 g/dL
Globulin, Total 2.6 1.5-4.5 g/dL
A/G Ratio 1.8 1.1-2.5
Bilirubin, Total 0.7 0.0-1.2 mg/dL
Alkaline Phosphatase, S 91 25-150 IU/L
AST (SGOT) 21 0-40 IU/L
ALT (SGPT) 25 0-32 IU/L
(I cut back on Calcium to only 1 pill daily instead of 3 - Doc was worried about me possibly getting kidney stones etc.)
Other tests taken:
TSH 8.220 (H) 0.450-4.500 uIU/mL
T4,Free(Direct) 1.35 0.82-1.77 ng/dL
FT3 2.6 2.0-4.4 pg/mL
Vitamin B12 1221 (H) 211-946 pg/mL
(I've heard this is okay being this high from research)
Vitamin D, 25-Hydroxy 67.8 30.0-100.0 ng/mL
(I increased an addt'l 2k IU)
Iron Bind.Cap. (TIBC) 353 250-450 ug/dL
UIBC 210 150-375 ug/dL
Iron, Serum 143 35-155 ug/dL
Iron Saturation 41 15-55 %
Ferritin, Serum 54 13-150 ng/mL (could be a lot better, but haven't done iron yet)
Cholesterol, Total 291 (H) 100-199 mg/dL
Triglycerides 105 0-149 mg/dL
HDL Cholesterol 81 >39 mg/dL
VLDL Cholesterol Cal 21 5-40 mg/dL
LDL Cholesterol Calc 189 0-99 mg/dL
(This is the highest it's ever been in my life. I will not take Statins...period)
Of course, once I have my new labs as stated above, maybe someone can help me know where to start with NTH. My doctor will allow most likely, but she may not know how much I should start and how soon to titrate. I don't want to be more of wreck than I already am and have been for the past month!
Thanks so much and hope someone with good knowledge can help me figure this out before my next doctor's appt, which I can get sooner than 3-15-13 (of course, I'm sure it will be based on my new labs of 2-28-13)
Debi
LazyMoose (as well as Barb or anyone else):
Well, just wanted to up date some things since changing over to NTH.
Simply put, things are looking up for me and my mom (her slower)! It's amazing how these past weeks have gone switching over! I'm now on 1 grain of Nature-throid at this time. I know or feel I am still hypo. My goodness it seems as though every symptom I have ever encountered flared up. Of course, not all at once, but each week something else gets a bit better then something else starts. I suppose this is just the way it goes until finding a correct or near dosage for my body (mom too)!
I have to say, my mental is 85% better now (it was bad for 2 weeks solid - brain fog, dizzy, exhausted too). Right now I'm dealing with my carpal tunnel issue, but after remembering I had to use the wrist braces to help ease the severe pain before, so I got them back out and started using them. They have helped definitely for the pain! The tingling started first (has not yet let up).
I have noticed and so has my mom, we seem to be a bit swollen (mom way more than I am). My hands especially (swollen and very cold hands), but that's more than likely the carpal tunnel I'm dealing with right now!
I am staying on the one grain (NTH) for now until I have blood work done at the end of the month. Do you think this is what I should do or maybe go up another 1/4 and push my lab and follow up into May (after being on the increase for at least 5 wks?) Just wondering! Oh, my lower back has been a bit bad starting yesterday and this is not a good thing, since it affects my sciatica nerve....right now it's okay, no pain, but as the day went on yesterday, it was starting to be very bothersome.
In addition, both mom and I are colder too than we were, which probably still means neither of us are at an adequate amount.
Just wanted to hear any thoughts on our progression! Thanks for any input!
Well, just wanted to up date some things since changing over to NTH.
Simply put, things are looking up for me and my mom (her slower)! It's amazing how these past weeks have gone switching over! I'm now on 1 grain of Nature-throid at this time. I know or feel I am still hypo. My goodness it seems as though every symptom I have ever encountered flared up. Of course, not all at once, but each week something else gets a bit better then something else starts. I suppose this is just the way it goes until finding a correct or near dosage for my body (mom too)!
I have to say, my mental is 85% better now (it was bad for 2 weeks solid - brain fog, dizzy, exhausted too). Right now I'm dealing with my carpal tunnel issue, but after remembering I had to use the wrist braces to help ease the severe pain before, so I got them back out and started using them. They have helped definitely for the pain! The tingling started first (has not yet let up).
I have noticed and so has my mom, we seem to be a bit swollen (mom way more than I am). My hands especially (swollen and very cold hands), but that's more than likely the carpal tunnel I'm dealing with right now!
I am staying on the one grain (NTH) for now until I have blood work done at the end of the month. Do you think this is what I should do or maybe go up another 1/4 and push my lab and follow up into May (after being on the increase for at least 5 wks?) Just wondering! Oh, my lower back has been a bit bad starting yesterday and this is not a good thing, since it affects my sciatica nerve....right now it's okay, no pain, but as the day went on yesterday, it was starting to be very bothersome.
In addition, both mom and I are colder too than we were, which probably still means neither of us are at an adequate amount.
Just wanted to hear any thoughts on our progression! Thanks for any input!
I have test results this was last Wednesday when I had been multi dosing with 16.5 Nature Throid for 1 week 3x a day. I do not have the range as I got the results over the phone but will get the full report this week in hand.
TSH=21.5(I know way too high)last year on Levo=6.0
T3=2.8 last year on Levo 3.0
T4=0.38(too low) don't remember last years
PA told me I needed to up my dosing - so I did with with 32 @ 3x & 1 16.5 @ 4pm - did ok but was really hypo - this was last Thursday.Total for day .97
Friday=same as above - not too bad, not as tired, added B-12 & it made a difference.
Saturday = 48.5 tab @ 7:45am, 32 tab @ 12:00, 32 tab @ 3:00pm, 32 @ 4:30pm. Total 161 - too high took me until 9:00pm to not be tired, felt fine with sleeping. Body temp over 2 weeks has averaged 96.2 down from the average 97.6 for ten years.
Sunday = 48.5 @ 8:45am, 32 @ 11:45am, 32 @ 4pm, 16 @ 6:00pm. Felt avverage all day - not too much, not too little. Took B-12. Almost felt like when I was on Levo with how I felt overall. Looked at Nature Throid conversion chart & this dosing seems to be close to the 150 & 175 Levo I had been taking. The hypo symptoms are a llittle less, not so much puffiness in my face, can concentrate for long periods of time, not too much anxiety other than why am I doing this again. Total=128.5
Didn't sleep well last night at all - but that is because my husband has left on a trip for a week. Took the 48.5 @ 5:30am. Holding my own & figure I will retest in another 2 weeks. This is very hard on my body.
TSH=21.5(I know way too high)last year on Levo=6.0
T3=2.8 last year on Levo 3.0
T4=0.38(too low) don't remember last years
PA told me I needed to up my dosing - so I did with with 32 @ 3x & 1 16.5 @ 4pm - did ok but was really hypo - this was last Thursday.Total for day .97
Friday=same as above - not too bad, not as tired, added B-12 & it made a difference.
Saturday = 48.5 tab @ 7:45am, 32 tab @ 12:00, 32 tab @ 3:00pm, 32 @ 4:30pm. Total 161 - too high took me until 9:00pm to not be tired, felt fine with sleeping. Body temp over 2 weeks has averaged 96.2 down from the average 97.6 for ten years.
Sunday = 48.5 @ 8:45am, 32 @ 11:45am, 32 @ 4pm, 16 @ 6:00pm. Felt avverage all day - not too much, not too little. Took B-12. Almost felt like when I was on Levo with how I felt overall. Looked at Nature Throid conversion chart & this dosing seems to be close to the 150 & 175 Levo I had been taking. The hypo symptoms are a llittle less, not so much puffiness in my face, can concentrate for long periods of time, not too much anxiety other than why am I doing this again. Total=128.5
Didn't sleep well last night at all - but that is because my husband has left on a trip for a week. Took the 48.5 @ 5:30am. Holding my own & figure I will retest in another 2 weeks. This is very hard on my body.
Today has been a rough day - as the Levo is dropping off & my NT is going up I have been inflicted today with a headache that won't go away. I think the dosing is now too low but I go up more tomorrow to a whole tablet of 16.25. I'm doing really good in going up now just have a few tweaks like the headache & swelling in my hands & feet which I contribute to Hypo symptoms. As soon as I take the NT it lessens.
Can you tell me if there is any issue in taking ibuprofen? I have been holding off all day & would love to take one or 2 to take the edge off of this headache. Thank you Ana
Can you tell me if there is any issue in taking ibuprofen? I have been holding off all day & would love to take one or 2 to take the edge off of this headache. Thank you Ana
Sorry the GNC "phosphatydlserine" has Soy Lecithin, not oil...ugh! I think Soy and to me, it's all bad stuff! Sorry!
Well unfortunately, I had definitely requested the RBC Mag test, but not done, so when my new labs are to be done, I am definitely going to request it. I looked up on LabCorps tests and found the right one so my doc will know exactly what I want!
I have to say, starting the NTH on 3-9-13 was a great start, but on 3-16-13 in the afternoon, I just got wiped out (totally exhausted) and since then, no energy whatsoever. UGH! I know it's my body adjusting from the change over, but oh my, foggy brain, no energy to accomplish hardly anything. Having to nap in the afternoons. Although, sleep is better, but I do know my adrenal glands stressed (waking up at least 2-4 times at night), can't concentrate properly etc. One thing I get is total numbing of my body (anxieties is the culprit)!
I'm going to get some adaptagens and that might help my cortisol levels and help keep me calmer. Maybe NutriCalm may help, just not sure yet!
A friend suggested I take "Phosphatidylserine" from GNC, but that is soybean oil and I really don't think that's good for the Thyroid. I understand, the RT3 needs to get better and it will take time!
I'm getting heat rushes/flushes (sweaty all over). After that happens, I get cold as ice (sweat).
I'm hanging in there though! I know the outcome will be good in due time! I have faith and hope in changing over from just T4 to NTH!
I just wish I could snap my brain back...that's the hardest with feeling exhausted. It was very hard to get this written on here this morning!
My mom is doing pretty good on the NTH, but she is also foggy brained and so very tired! Poor lady!
I have to say, starting the NTH on 3-9-13 was a great start, but on 3-16-13 in the afternoon, I just got wiped out (totally exhausted) and since then, no energy whatsoever. UGH! I know it's my body adjusting from the change over, but oh my, foggy brain, no energy to accomplish hardly anything. Having to nap in the afternoons. Although, sleep is better, but I do know my adrenal glands stressed (waking up at least 2-4 times at night), can't concentrate properly etc. One thing I get is total numbing of my body (anxieties is the culprit)!
I'm going to get some adaptagens and that might help my cortisol levels and help keep me calmer. Maybe NutriCalm may help, just not sure yet!
A friend suggested I take "Phosphatidylserine" from GNC, but that is soybean oil and I really don't think that's good for the Thyroid. I understand, the RT3 needs to get better and it will take time!
I'm getting heat rushes/flushes (sweaty all over). After that happens, I get cold as ice (sweat).
I'm hanging in there though! I know the outcome will be good in due time! I have faith and hope in changing over from just T4 to NTH!
I just wish I could snap my brain back...that's the hardest with feeling exhausted. It was very hard to get this written on here this morning!
My mom is doing pretty good on the NTH, but she is also foggy brained and so very tired! Poor lady!
Barb & LazyMoose thank you for more info & mostly the support. Here is my progress: Yesterday I took 1/2 of my pill @ 10:30am & did not get sick to my stomach but was foggy headed, took the other half about 2:30 didnt get sick still foggy til 5pm then it went away & I felt very good, Today is even better, took 3/4 @ 9:45 didn't get sick, no fogginess then took again @ 2:10 - this was too late - I need to overlap better. I didn't get as foggy. Several things are very positive, my energy is up but not much, I'm happy - this feels VERY good. Even tho this is making me a little sick I have this tremendous faith that this is right. I was ALWAYS in a fight or flight mode on Levo - now this is different & I can't quite explain it as I don't think I remember how to feel good - it's been so long. So long that it brings me to tears to see these small baby steps taking shape of what might be.
Barb - I'm not going to test for 2 more weeks - that would be a total of 4 weeks. Nature Throid starts higher than what me & the pharmacist decided to start at: 16.25 quarter grain - the lowest & we are working up based on how I feel - not what 'they' say or the numbers - if we go by numbers the doc will say I'm good. I've been given a gift to work this on my own terms in discovering what will be best for me - I'm running with it. I had a good day yesterday - even better today but know this will go up & down. It was so hard for me after surgery I was really scared to do this - I hated that feeling but what if the end result is better? It's that what if that is keeping me going even if I don't feel so hot right now.
LazyMoose - I have started to chew up the tablets and realized last night that I will be sick for a couple of weeks as I make this change. I don't know why but I feel the need to keep on trying. In the past I would have been like blam I'm done and not take something that makes me feel worse but I am realizing that 1) this is for the better 2) Levo takes a while to get out while the good has to come in - it's slow so starting very low is turning out to be a good thing. I'm so amazed at the biofeedback the body gives out on T3. Again it's been so long that my poor body just doesn't know what to do with this stuff. I feel like I've been running with water in the gas tank - you know how that is right? Sludge, sputtering about. I think this is starting to work. Oh ya one more thing I'm not sleeping so good, instead of 8 I'm getting 5-7 off & on but I think once I adjust the dosing to come in closer in the morning & at noon this will help me. Thanks a again for the encouragement - I am near tears all day thinking of all the positives if I just stay patient.
Barb - I'm not going to test for 2 more weeks - that would be a total of 4 weeks. Nature Throid starts higher than what me & the pharmacist decided to start at: 16.25 quarter grain - the lowest & we are working up based on how I feel - not what 'they' say or the numbers - if we go by numbers the doc will say I'm good. I've been given a gift to work this on my own terms in discovering what will be best for me - I'm running with it. I had a good day yesterday - even better today but know this will go up & down. It was so hard for me after surgery I was really scared to do this - I hated that feeling but what if the end result is better? It's that what if that is keeping me going even if I don't feel so hot right now.
LazyMoose - I have started to chew up the tablets and realized last night that I will be sick for a couple of weeks as I make this change. I don't know why but I feel the need to keep on trying. In the past I would have been like blam I'm done and not take something that makes me feel worse but I am realizing that 1) this is for the better 2) Levo takes a while to get out while the good has to come in - it's slow so starting very low is turning out to be a good thing. I'm so amazed at the biofeedback the body gives out on T3. Again it's been so long that my poor body just doesn't know what to do with this stuff. I feel like I've been running with water in the gas tank - you know how that is right? Sludge, sputtering about. I think this is starting to work. Oh ya one more thing I'm not sleeping so good, instead of 8 I'm getting 5-7 off & on but I think once I adjust the dosing to come in closer in the morning & at noon this will help me. Thanks a again for the encouragement - I am near tears all day thinking of all the positives if I just stay patient.
Note: for most people natural T3 in dessicated has less of a potent feeling than synthetic T3.
The idea of starting low with any dessicated is due to the T3.
Still some prefer to split their daily dose 2X per day, if fatigue is a big issue with your hypothyroid, this might help.
Nature Throid doesn't get specific, but will answer the phone and even call you back (that was three yrs ago though).
Armour gets specific on the PDF, but doesn't answer the phone.
Ive used both above and three other dessicated brands in the past + a short time of cytomel before dessicated.
The idea of starting low with any dessicated is due to the T3.
Still some prefer to split their daily dose 2X per day, if fatigue is a big issue with your hypothyroid, this might help.
Nature Throid doesn't get specific, but will answer the phone and even call you back (that was three yrs ago though).
Armour gets specific on the PDF, but doesn't answer the phone.
Ive used both above and three other dessicated brands in the past + a short time of cytomel before dessicated.
Your multiple meds is a little confusing for your body.
Many people get impatient when changing med, since it often makes you feel worse for a week or few. Then they assume it wasn't working. The key is patients, even if you dont feel well. I have changed many times in the past due to availability and a couple of generic dessicated meds that got their doors closed by the FDA.
When changing to dessicated (once again per the PDF on the Armour website) start lower that your full daily dose. If you dont, you might feel hyper in a week as the T3 takes time to get used to.
Some people once on a dessicated a while do add small amounts of synthetic T4 to get the t4 higher. Dessicated naturally has lower t4 than T3 (its how pigs are).
Chewing it with some people can bump up the low T4 a little (a good thing). T3 levels are the same if a dessicated is taken orally or sublingually since it is not effected by food it the stomach like aT4 is. NP throid brand and Erfa thyroid brand can be dissolved sublingually without chewing. NT and Armour are harder to dissolve, so chewing is needed to make taking sublingual effective.
Many people get impatient when changing med, since it often makes you feel worse for a week or few. Then they assume it wasn't working. The key is patients, even if you dont feel well. I have changed many times in the past due to availability and a couple of generic dessicated meds that got their doors closed by the FDA.
When changing to dessicated (once again per the PDF on the Armour website) start lower that your full daily dose. If you dont, you might feel hyper in a week as the T3 takes time to get used to.
Some people once on a dessicated a while do add small amounts of synthetic T4 to get the t4 higher. Dessicated naturally has lower t4 than T3 (its how pigs are).
Chewing it with some people can bump up the low T4 a little (a good thing). T3 levels are the same if a dessicated is taken orally or sublingually since it is not effected by food it the stomach like aT4 is. NP throid brand and Erfa thyroid brand can be dissolved sublingually without chewing. NT and Armour are harder to dissolve, so chewing is needed to make taking sublingual effective.
COMMUNITY LEADER
You should only ever make one change at a time, or you have no way of knowing which change is making the difference.
What are your actual lab levels? You should have TSH, FT3 and FT4 every few weeks while changing med/dosages. Please post the most recent results you have and be sure to include reference ranges which vary lab to lab and have to come from your own report. Also be sure to let us know what med/dose you were on, when the labs were done.
What's the increase schedule for Naturethroid? I know Armour recommends to start at a very low dose, then increase every couple of weeks. Is that what Naturethroid recommends, too?
Because of the long 1/2 life of T4 med, it takes several weeks for the levo to completely leave your body.
Are you multi-dosing the NatureThroid? I'm on synthetic T3 and I have to multi-dose, otherwise I get WAY too much in the morning, then it's gone long before the day is over. By taking 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 around noon, I keep my FT3 levels much more stable.
I'm happy to hear that you felt better yesterday, but do understand that might not be a lasting thing. Many of us have up and down days, before we have mostly up days.
Best of luck to you and I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress.
What are your actual lab levels? You should have TSH, FT3 and FT4 every few weeks while changing med/dosages. Please post the most recent results you have and be sure to include reference ranges which vary lab to lab and have to come from your own report. Also be sure to let us know what med/dose you were on, when the labs were done.
What's the increase schedule for Naturethroid? I know Armour recommends to start at a very low dose, then increase every couple of weeks. Is that what Naturethroid recommends, too?
Because of the long 1/2 life of T4 med, it takes several weeks for the levo to completely leave your body.
Are you multi-dosing the NatureThroid? I'm on synthetic T3 and I have to multi-dose, otherwise I get WAY too much in the morning, then it's gone long before the day is over. By taking 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 around noon, I keep my FT3 levels much more stable.
I'm happy to hear that you felt better yesterday, but do understand that might not be a lasting thing. Many of us have up and down days, before we have mostly up days.
Best of luck to you and I hope you'll keep us posted on your progress.
Thank you very much Barb - I did take the 1/2 of the quarter grain & feel better for sure - I took the half Levo because the Nature Throid prescribed to me is the lowest dose available just so we could see how I would react to it and I would have had to go back on full blown Levo if this wasn't working. So far so good I have normal brain function again & will contact the doc tomorrow to up the dose but not by much. They gave me 10 to start with & even cut them in half as they are so small.
Since this is the lowest I am very afraid of going really hypo. I have been there & for me I understood why people were institutionalized so I am trying to go up very carefully as I am so sensitive to meds while keeping a somewhat decent level. This week I can ask for a higher dose & ease into that later in the week. I know they have T4/T3 but for me if I take too much I will get sick. After learning the T4 body shelf life I figured my levels would start to get funky this week & with work won't be able to get higher until Thursday. I figure I only have 3/4 Levo in my body and with half of a quarter grain it wasn't much. The doctor & pharmacist said I would have to 'play' with it to see how this will fit in. Yesterday I have to say was the first time in 9 years that I had normal energy & it was quite pleasant. Still scary tho taking this leap without really knowing where the dosing will hit. I did that when I had the thyroid removed for 2 1/2 years after that I settled and said fine this is where I am going to be and feel like. Now I'm really trying to keep the really awful stuff from happening as I make the switch - but i have to be realistic when you say there will be changes as I change.
Thank you for your reply - I really appreciate it. I have reached out on other boards & not getting much response.
Since this is the lowest I am very afraid of going really hypo. I have been there & for me I understood why people were institutionalized so I am trying to go up very carefully as I am so sensitive to meds while keeping a somewhat decent level. This week I can ask for a higher dose & ease into that later in the week. I know they have T4/T3 but for me if I take too much I will get sick. After learning the T4 body shelf life I figured my levels would start to get funky this week & with work won't be able to get higher until Thursday. I figure I only have 3/4 Levo in my body and with half of a quarter grain it wasn't much. The doctor & pharmacist said I would have to 'play' with it to see how this will fit in. Yesterday I have to say was the first time in 9 years that I had normal energy & it was quite pleasant. Still scary tho taking this leap without really knowing where the dosing will hit. I did that when I had the thyroid removed for 2 1/2 years after that I settled and said fine this is where I am going to be and feel like. Now I'm really trying to keep the really awful stuff from happening as I make the switch - but i have to be realistic when you say there will be changes as I change.
Thank you for your reply - I really appreciate it. I have reached out on other boards & not getting much response.
COMMUNITY LEADER
Are you still taking the NatureThroid? NatureThroid contains both T3 and T4; since you've just started taking it, you should not add synthetic levo or T3 to it.
It takes about 4-6 weeks for a med change with T4 in it, to take fully effect; however, the T3 in the NatureThroid is fast acting, so is in and out of your system in hours. Most people on desiccated thyroid hormones, multi-dose every day; meaning 1/2 dose morning, 1/2 dose late morning to early afternoon.
You should allow yourself time to get used to the NatureThroid, increasing as needed, rather than try to add synthetics, at this point.
It's not unusual for symptoms to worsen or for new ones to appear when changing from one med/dosage to another. You have to give the med time to work.
It takes about 4-6 weeks for a med change with T4 in it, to take fully effect; however, the T3 in the NatureThroid is fast acting, so is in and out of your system in hours. Most people on desiccated thyroid hormones, multi-dose every day; meaning 1/2 dose morning, 1/2 dose late morning to early afternoon.
You should allow yourself time to get used to the NatureThroid, increasing as needed, rather than try to add synthetics, at this point.
It's not unusual for symptoms to worsen or for new ones to appear when changing from one med/dosage to another. You have to give the med time to work.
My magnesium serum is mid way. As long as it's not elevated i'm fine with that. I can keep track of the magnesium deficiency symptoms. One symptom is an itchy heel that is almost impossible to scratch. Magnesium stat! :)
I think i did retain magnesium when taking supplements since i corrected a severe magnesium deficiency taking 100mg of elemental magnesium a day (RDA is 350mg of elemental magnesium). All i know is my kidneys could not handle the magnesium i was taking and i wish i had know this as i still suffer a couple of symptoms two years later.
I always thought my poor diet was to blame in particular for my magnesium deficiency (besides surgery and high vitamin D supplementation which did worsen my deficiency) but i found this...
"Healthy kidneys are able to limit urinary excretion of magnesium to make up for low dietary intake. However, excessive loss of magnesium in urine can be a side effect of some medications and can also occur in cases of poorly-controlled diabetes and alcohol abuse [11-18]."
I'd like to add severe insulin resistance to this statement me thinks. :)
I always thought my poor diet was to blame in particular for my magnesium deficiency (besides surgery and high vitamin D supplementation which did worsen my deficiency) but i found this...
"Healthy kidneys are able to limit urinary excretion of magnesium to make up for low dietary intake. However, excessive loss of magnesium in urine can be a side effect of some medications and can also occur in cases of poorly-controlled diabetes and alcohol abuse [11-18]."
I'd like to add severe insulin resistance to this statement me thinks. :)
Hello - I have been following your posts which are always thoughtful & informative & needed some feedback.
No thyroid 8 years on synthroid, 1 year on Levothyroxine 150 Tues-Friday; 175 Sat-Mon. Last Monday was the last day I took Levo -
I recently got my GP to allow me take NTH. So he gave me .90 Armour which I cut in half & got violently ill, the next day I tried an 1/8 got ill but not as bad just foggy thinking for several hours. So with my pharmacist's help we got the doc to switch me to .25 Nature Throid I took half of that yesterday had some stomach discomfort but felt great until I crashed around 1:00pm then decided to take the other half - no problem felt pretty good actually.
After doing a lot research on taking T-4 & supping with T-3 & not wanting my levels to slip too much I decided to take 1/2 my regular Levo of 175 with the intent of taking the 1/2 NatureThyroid here shortly.
My doc does not agree with this but he's letting me at least try something different - it's just I'm my own mad scientist. There is no good time that is not 'stressfu' in life or career that allows me to go 'there' I have to take the chance. He doesn't know & I should have that I needed to cut back on the Levo before adding anything very high.
I guess my questions/s are have you heard of anyone taking Levo/Nature Throid at different times of the day? I also have permission to do compounded time released T3 as the pharmacist & I believe I am not converting. If I have no thyroid do i really need T4? If I do need T4 I would take it at a lower dose & add T3 2x a day?
I do not have current numbers right now and won't for a few weeks - the fact that I took the chance, that the doc is even working with me & I have a very knowledgeable pharmacist who also hopes to open the docs closed mind is a miracle and a door that I must keep walking thru - T3 is VERY powerful & it scares me to go to hypo right now. Tomorrow will be 7 very long days of not taking synthetic. Thank you for your time.
No thyroid 8 years on synthroid, 1 year on Levothyroxine 150 Tues-Friday; 175 Sat-Mon. Last Monday was the last day I took Levo -
I recently got my GP to allow me take NTH. So he gave me .90 Armour which I cut in half & got violently ill, the next day I tried an 1/8 got ill but not as bad just foggy thinking for several hours. So with my pharmacist's help we got the doc to switch me to .25 Nature Throid I took half of that yesterday had some stomach discomfort but felt great until I crashed around 1:00pm then decided to take the other half - no problem felt pretty good actually.
After doing a lot research on taking T-4 & supping with T-3 & not wanting my levels to slip too much I decided to take 1/2 my regular Levo of 175 with the intent of taking the 1/2 NatureThyroid here shortly.
My doc does not agree with this but he's letting me at least try something different - it's just I'm my own mad scientist. There is no good time that is not 'stressfu' in life or career that allows me to go 'there' I have to take the chance. He doesn't know & I should have that I needed to cut back on the Levo before adding anything very high.
I guess my questions/s are have you heard of anyone taking Levo/Nature Throid at different times of the day? I also have permission to do compounded time released T3 as the pharmacist & I believe I am not converting. If I have no thyroid do i really need T4? If I do need T4 I would take it at a lower dose & add T3 2x a day?
I do not have current numbers right now and won't for a few weeks - the fact that I took the chance, that the doc is even working with me & I have a very knowledgeable pharmacist who also hopes to open the docs closed mind is a miracle and a door that I must keep walking thru - T3 is VERY powerful & it scares me to go to hypo right now. Tomorrow will be 7 very long days of not taking synthetic. Thank you for your time.
There you go, read the two previous comments. All the more reason to ask specifically for a RBC magnesium blood test. And make sure your kidneys are up to par from your yearly physical (I hope you get a yearly blood physical).
I guess we should never say never here.
So your kidneys were previously damaged before and excess magnesium finally overworked them into failure?
Damaged kidneys can cause unnaturally high levels of magnesium even without supplementation.
Guess that would be a good reason for people to get the RBC magnesium test in addition to reviewing kidney health via their blood test from a yearly physical prior to taking large doses of magnesium.
from a magnesium website: "Magnesium is excreted by your kidneys. Any damage to your kidneys, when they are not working properly, may cause an increase in magnesium levels called Hypermagnesemia."
Have you ever had a RBC mag test? I have twice. I was like pulling teeth to get them to do it even though they new I take a lot of supplemental magnesium glycinate (the highest elemental amount).
If I remember right, I was still only in the middle of the RBC mag range (with mag supplementation). I take less in times of less physical activity and /or stress.
So your kidneys were previously damaged before and excess magnesium finally overworked them into failure?
Damaged kidneys can cause unnaturally high levels of magnesium even without supplementation.
Guess that would be a good reason for people to get the RBC magnesium test in addition to reviewing kidney health via their blood test from a yearly physical prior to taking large doses of magnesium.
from a magnesium website: "Magnesium is excreted by your kidneys. Any damage to your kidneys, when they are not working properly, may cause an increase in magnesium levels called Hypermagnesemia."
Have you ever had a RBC mag test? I have twice. I was like pulling teeth to get them to do it even though they new I take a lot of supplemental magnesium glycinate (the highest elemental amount).
If I remember right, I was still only in the middle of the RBC mag range (with mag supplementation). I take less in times of less physical activity and /or stress.
I just read your last comment LazyMoose and i wanted to mention i developed acute kidney failure taking one capsule (100mg of elemental magnesium) once a day for three months.
My kidneys are damaged (i believe the reason is due to severe insulin resistance for over a decade) although the lab clue was bicarbonate just under the reference range as far back as i can access (2000).
I take a magnesium supplement once in a while as i keep developing symptoms of magnesium deficiency but i cannot take them everyday. My poor kidneys are not up to scratch.
My kidneys are damaged (i believe the reason is due to severe insulin resistance for over a decade) although the lab clue was bicarbonate just under the reference range as far back as i can access (2000).
I take a magnesium supplement once in a while as i keep developing symptoms of magnesium deficiency but i cannot take them everyday. My poor kidneys are not up to scratch.
Thanks LazyMoose! I wasn't expecting to feel worse to be honest. I'll see how i go. :)
Due to your mothers age (80) and other health complications I really cant say much. All I can say is slower on the T3 introduction the better.
I try to comment from my own experiences or what others here have shown to be important factors. Maybe when I'm 80 I'll know how thyroid blends into those other health concerns. That will be awhile though.
Note: magnesium serum and RBC magnesium are two different tests. I've had both, several times.
One good thing about magnesium is you cant overdose and cause harm. The worst thing that could happen is the immediate need to change one shorts LOL! If it reaches that point, the individual definitely has taken to much daily magnesium.
While on the subject of magnessium feel free to search my past posts on different Magnesium. Cheap magnesium with oxide (from drug stores) will be of no health benefit, you must read the back label to find this.
I try to comment from my own experiences or what others here have shown to be important factors. Maybe when I'm 80 I'll know how thyroid blends into those other health concerns. That will be awhile though.
Note: magnesium serum and RBC magnesium are two different tests. I've had both, several times.
One good thing about magnesium is you cant overdose and cause harm. The worst thing that could happen is the immediate need to change one shorts LOL! If it reaches that point, the individual definitely has taken to much daily magnesium.
While on the subject of magnessium feel free to search my past posts on different Magnesium. Cheap magnesium with oxide (from drug stores) will be of no health benefit, you must read the back label to find this.
Dont expect to feel an immediate improvement when first switching to dessicated. Or even switching from one brand of dessicated to another, bodies acceptance and sense of difference is partially due to the the fillers..People are more likely to feel worse for week. Your body doesn't know what to do with it first. Like putting a new food in front of a child, the instant response is usually "I dont like it".
The start slow and under full dose info I mentioned to DVS1956 in this post works best. Drs that know how to dose dessicated also do this. This info is also on a PDF in the Armour website- but hard to find there.
If you start at full dose, it doesnt do too much then all of a sudeden its too late and your hyper even though your really not at full dose yet. The body still doesn't know what to do with all that T3, eventually it will (weeks or months).
The start slow and under full dose info I mentioned to DVS1956 in this post works best. Drs that know how to dose dessicated also do this. This info is also on a PDF in the Armour website- but hard to find there.
If you start at full dose, it doesnt do too much then all of a sudeden its too late and your hyper even though your really not at full dose yet. The body still doesn't know what to do with all that T3, eventually it will (weeks or months).
No problem. :) Diabetes is the number one cause of chronic kidney disease. The condition is called diabetic nephropathy. Based on the stages of chronic kidney disease, 51 is stage 3A (45 - 59) - mild-moderately reduced kidney function. An eGFR of 51 means that your mother has 51% of normal kidney function. Elevated RT3 can be due to insulin resistance/diabetes.
I just started natural desiccated myself. My doctor said to take Armour twice a day but the pharmacist wrote once a day in case of heart problems. I agreed to try one capsule a day. Going from thyroxine to Armour and symptoms worsened in a day. By day three, i decided to take thyroxine with armour and today i've taken two Armour supplements (one in the morning and one at night). So far i'm not feeling any improvement. But anyway, what i found online is to start low to get used to T3 but increase it within 2 weeks.
I just started natural desiccated myself. My doctor said to take Armour twice a day but the pharmacist wrote once a day in case of heart problems. I agreed to try one capsule a day. Going from thyroxine to Armour and symptoms worsened in a day. By day three, i decided to take thyroxine with armour and today i've taken two Armour supplements (one in the morning and one at night). So far i'm not feeling any improvement. But anyway, what i found online is to start low to get used to T3 but increase it within 2 weeks.
I asked the doctor yesterday during my appt and she said it's the same test, but unfortunately, they didn't do it! Lab Corp messed up on some of my tests, even though they took 15 vials of my blood on 3-8-13!
Doc visit went well for my NTH and she also gave my mom her new script for NTH.
Although, she is still very concerned about this medicine, but saw a huge difference in me and was glad to see it! I am too!
Now with my mom's blood work I posted (she takes 125 mcgs T4), the doctor has written the script for her as follows: 1 grain for 7 days then 1 1/4 for 7 days and see from there, but since my mom is 80 yrs of age and not healthy (diabetes, hypertension, COPD, blood issues daily use of Warfarin etc.), I'm "rethinking" this and may only start her on only 3/4 grain for 7 days (her body needs to also get accustom to the T3). See how she fairs mentally and physically and then titrate up a 1/4 (making it a full grain. But, should I have her wait longer than 7 days? She is hypo and needing more T med, but I don't want her to get jolted from the T3 (as I am, but I can handle it).
I sure would appreciate someone's humble opinion on this.
We will have her RT3 back early next week, but in either event (which I am sure she has RT3 issues) I want to be very cautious with the NTH for her!
Thanks!
Doc visit went well for my NTH and she also gave my mom her new script for NTH.
Although, she is still very concerned about this medicine, but saw a huge difference in me and was glad to see it! I am too!
Now with my mom's blood work I posted (she takes 125 mcgs T4), the doctor has written the script for her as follows: 1 grain for 7 days then 1 1/4 for 7 days and see from there, but since my mom is 80 yrs of age and not healthy (diabetes, hypertension, COPD, blood issues daily use of Warfarin etc.), I'm "rethinking" this and may only start her on only 3/4 grain for 7 days (her body needs to also get accustom to the T3). See how she fairs mentally and physically and then titrate up a 1/4 (making it a full grain. But, should I have her wait longer than 7 days? She is hypo and needing more T med, but I don't want her to get jolted from the T3 (as I am, but I can handle it).
I sure would appreciate someone's humble opinion on this.
We will have her RT3 back early next week, but in either event (which I am sure she has RT3 issues) I want to be very cautious with the NTH for her!
Thanks!
About the standard Magnesium, Serum blood test - its not considered a very reliable method of measuring magnesium.
A blood test called RBC (red blood cell) Magnessium is much better. The dr might have to look it up with their lab, but it is offered by most labs.
LM
A blood test called RBC (red blood cell) Magnessium is much better. The dr might have to look it up with their lab, but it is offered by most labs.
LM
I believe this is the ANSWER to the TNP - (TNP means..Test Not Performed (TNP), found it on the internet!)
I suppose since I had the Calcium, Ionized Serum done is why they cancelled this...
Lab: Ca+PTH Intact
Calcium, Serum TNP mg/dL
PTH, Intact 24 15-65 pg/mL
Intact PTH
But why didn't they do my Magnesium: (TNP)
Lab: Magnesium, Serum
Magnesium, Serum TNP mg/dL
Will be asking the doc this morning at my appt.!
By the way, I am doing find on my NTH....some anxieties, hyper activity, sweating a bit in the early morning (hands, arm pits, feet, behind knees, (basically the crevices of the body)! Could be my Adrenal glands being stressed, which I probably have had for quite awhile due to HYPO to long (I've had these symptoms for quite awhile!). I think or blieve my blood pressure, pulse and heart rate are up (no palps). If it's to high when they check me today, the docs, are possibly going to freak on the NTH. Normally, they have a very hard time getting my blood pressure readings and when they finally do, they're usually in the low range (107/64 pulse? not sure of off hand).
Thanks!
Debi (why doesn't any body sign their posts?) Not suppose to?
I suppose since I had the Calcium, Ionized Serum done is why they cancelled this...
Lab: Ca+PTH Intact
Calcium, Serum TNP mg/dL
PTH, Intact 24 15-65 pg/mL
Intact PTH
But why didn't they do my Magnesium: (TNP)
Lab: Magnesium, Serum
Magnesium, Serum TNP mg/dL
Will be asking the doc this morning at my appt.!
By the way, I am doing find on my NTH....some anxieties, hyper activity, sweating a bit in the early morning (hands, arm pits, feet, behind knees, (basically the crevices of the body)! Could be my Adrenal glands being stressed, which I probably have had for quite awhile due to HYPO to long (I've had these symptoms for quite awhile!). I think or blieve my blood pressure, pulse and heart rate are up (no palps). If it's to high when they check me today, the docs, are possibly going to freak on the NTH. Normally, they have a very hard time getting my blood pressure readings and when they finally do, they're usually in the low range (107/64 pulse? not sure of off hand).
Thanks!
Debi (why doesn't any body sign their posts?) Not suppose to?
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Only the third post worked., since you cant post all websites here - it auto blocks them.
I calculated my last RT3 with from both T3 and free T3 taken at the same time. In my case, both Reverse T3 methods had good results. : )
Orange toes? - thats a new one.
T3 "feel" is short lived (3-5 hrs). Thats why many take 2 doses a day. I dose Erfa brand (Canadian) 3X per day, but take sublingual, so food does not matter or effect absorbsion.
My lab test show slightly higher FT4 taking desicated Erfa sublingual vs orally. T3 in any form is not effected by food, only the T4 is, and T4 is naturally lower in dessicated meds (thats the way pig T3/T4 ratio is, but you get used to it).