Aa
Pooling of thyroid meds
So can anyone explain this to me. What does it mean to "pool your meds"? Been searching for a good anwer to this and want to find out about this so I can put it to rest. Thanks!!
Yes, that is it, lower feel decent but then overload starts again. I have been at 30 all week hoping for some relief from the feeling of having too much. I am getting there each day, but I still feel the anxiety mounting after 30 min or so of taking pill at 7am. Anxiety continues, then gets a bit worse after taking the 3pm pill. I am staying at 30 as long as I can tolerate it so that I can very, very slowly wean to where I need to be.
I felt extremely drained after waking this morning and thought, "uh oh, here it comes, I am falling." This lasted for a couple of hours and then I started perking up and feeling half way normal. This is terrible on my mind, thoughts, energy, emotions; it's like the drug affects it all so much. I have had a heaviness in my chest on and off all week, even a bit of shortness of breath. This usually passes soon, so I wasn't too worried about it. Something is going on with inputting T3. It is all drug related in some way, too consistent of a pattern.
I feel my very best (energy, normal and peaceful thoughts, stable mindset, emotions in tact) in the evening around 8-9 pm when the effects of the T3 for the day are worn off. I then wake up with a bit of an overload feeling and the cycle starts over. As I go day by day at lower dose, it is slowly but hopefully improving for good. NONE of this ever happened when I was at my 60mg Armour while on the other drug, ever. I believe my conversion process has ramped up OR the other drug was suppressing my T3 prior.
I am standing in belief that I will either settle at a very low dose of a thyroid drug with excellent results OR I will successfully go to an over the counter product OR I will come off all together ending this whole four year season of my life following the birth of my son. I want to be free of all of this back and forth once and for all...free; praying for all to keep heading in the right direction.
I felt extremely drained after waking this morning and thought, "uh oh, here it comes, I am falling." This lasted for a couple of hours and then I started perking up and feeling half way normal. This is terrible on my mind, thoughts, energy, emotions; it's like the drug affects it all so much. I have had a heaviness in my chest on and off all week, even a bit of shortness of breath. This usually passes soon, so I wasn't too worried about it. Something is going on with inputting T3. It is all drug related in some way, too consistent of a pattern.
I feel my very best (energy, normal and peaceful thoughts, stable mindset, emotions in tact) in the evening around 8-9 pm when the effects of the T3 for the day are worn off. I then wake up with a bit of an overload feeling and the cycle starts over. As I go day by day at lower dose, it is slowly but hopefully improving for good. NONE of this ever happened when I was at my 60mg Armour while on the other drug, ever. I believe my conversion process has ramped up OR the other drug was suppressing my T3 prior.
I am standing in belief that I will either settle at a very low dose of a thyroid drug with excellent results OR I will successfully go to an over the counter product OR I will come off all together ending this whole four year season of my life following the birth of my son. I want to be free of all of this back and forth once and for all...free; praying for all to keep heading in the right direction.
I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean about "building". Do you mean that after you lowered your dose, you fellt good for a few days, then you started to get symptoms of overload back again?
I was at 60 mg and I am now at 30mg. The plan is to go six weeks as is, assuming all goes reasonably well, then see how I feel and get tested. I am much more interested in how I feel vs. the numbers. I wonder why I never felt a build type thing prior? Why would it build at such a low dose and when I split it 15/15? It is definitely the T3 for sure because when it wears off, all symptoms go away for the most part. My concern is what will happen overall at the lower dose. Time will tell...
T3 does build; it just doesn't build like T4 does. T4 meds take weeks to build to a stable level in your blood and weeks to dissipate once d/c'ed. T3, on the other hand has a much more immediate effect, and when you stop taking it is quickly out of your system. Of course, there are individual differences in just how long that takes of each of us.
My numbers are not high, either, and I feel good. We all have to find the range that works best for us. So, yes, you could be one of those people comfortable low in the ranges.
Just adding T4 would not dilute the effects of T3. However, if you convert well (or have started to convert well again since going off the metformin), taking T4 only will give you a more even level of hormone in your blood than when taking T3. On T3 meds, your levels spike up and down during the day. In a lot of ways, even though we often hear dessicated talked about as "natural", since our thyroids produce very little T3 (most of it comes from conversion, not the thyroid), taking T3 meds bypasses the very natural conversion process. Of course, if we don't convert well, it's a different story.
This thread has gotten pretty long, and I can't find it at the moment, but if I remember correctly, he's dropped your dose considerably? You were on 60 mg before?
At any rate, I'm so glad to hear that you've found someone who will work with you and who you have confidence in. That makes all the difference in the world. Let us know how it's going...
My numbers are not high, either, and I feel good. We all have to find the range that works best for us. So, yes, you could be one of those people comfortable low in the ranges.
Just adding T4 would not dilute the effects of T3. However, if you convert well (or have started to convert well again since going off the metformin), taking T4 only will give you a more even level of hormone in your blood than when taking T3. On T3 meds, your levels spike up and down during the day. In a lot of ways, even though we often hear dessicated talked about as "natural", since our thyroids produce very little T3 (most of it comes from conversion, not the thyroid), taking T3 meds bypasses the very natural conversion process. Of course, if we don't convert well, it's a different story.
This thread has gotten pretty long, and I can't find it at the moment, but if I remember correctly, he's dropped your dose considerably? You were on 60 mg before?
At any rate, I'm so glad to hear that you've found someone who will work with you and who you have confidence in. That makes all the difference in the world. Let us know how it's going...
Well, I got some very interesting news yesterday. There is a group of practitioners (bio ident, hormone specialists) here in town who work under a very well respected dr., a pioneer in the industry of bio identicals, author of books, etc.. I made an appointment with them a while back knowing I could not get in until end of Sept. When things went really haywire a few weeks back, I decided to see the internal med dr. (in the interim of seeing this group) who suggested the supplements for adrenal fatigue and felt like until that is addressed, thyroid would not stabilized. Ok, makes sense, went with it. Things were good for a couple of weeks on AF supplements, then back to square one, thyroid over loading/underloading consistent pattern. I also went to an endo just after that when the first dr. threw me a script for steroids with absolutely no testing. It was then that the endo ran all the tests for AF (some still pending).
Low and behold and being at complete wits end, my phone rings late afternoon Wed. and the gal asks me if I can come in tomorrow morning to see NOT one of the nurse practitioners (which is who you usually see), but the pioneer dr. himself! Really? Cancellation, I'll be there.
As I sat in his office, he listened intently to my entire story. When I presented my theory about the metformin causing thyroid suppression, hence the need for the Armour, he agreed with me and said that is what he thinks happened. He also took a look at the labs from endo and could determine just in what he saw that I am not dealing with a case of adrenal fatigue that would be affecting the thyroid. Yes, there are labs still outstanding, but he can tell in just what he saw that this is not a proper diagnosis and he was appalled that I was given a script for hydrocortizone. He was also appalled that I was ever diagnosed with the original condition (PCOS) and was ever placed on metformin; 100% misdiagnosis on another dr's part. I trust him wholeheartedly in what he was saying.
OMG, can you believe this? I was on a drug that I didn't need to begin with and it was throwing my thyroid off creating the need for thyroid meds! I will say, however, that he does feel like I have a subclinical case of hypo that may be able to be taken care of through an over the counter thyroid support. I pray this is all what it appears and things are not going to fall apart over time. If I have to stay on meds, so be it, but we have to get this right once and for all.
Tests showed no Hashi's, RT3 was 225 (90-350). My blood sugars and insulin were also tested, perfect. I am currently taking 15mg Armour 7am and 15 mg 3pm. Even a few days with this, I feel a slight overload starting to happen. The good news is that I am not getting the underload anymore at all. What do you make of this?? Dr. also said that as long as my TSH has not been below 1.0 for an extended period of time (which it has not), my thyroid has not been permanantly supressed.
So, tell me again that T3 does NOT build!! It seems to be in me?? Could it be that I simply do not need it, "my cup is full" even though my numbers are not high? I fear that as I stay at the lower dose things will not hold, they will fall. Again, this is fear talking. I am so thankful for all the positive info he shared. I know that I am not out of the woods with totally coming off this med and I may struggle here, but I am confident that something will be determined and this roller coaster will come to a stop.
Would adding a T4 component dilute the effects of the T3 making it not overload? Too many questions, too few answers. Maybe straight T4 is my answer. The dr. felt so badly for me in all that I've come through with all of this (I also shared my lists of stressors so he could evaluate for AF) and gave me his cell number in case things get crazy until the next time I can get levels drawn. Personally, my biggest guage will be how I feel along the way. Thanks!
Low and behold and being at complete wits end, my phone rings late afternoon Wed. and the gal asks me if I can come in tomorrow morning to see NOT one of the nurse practitioners (which is who you usually see), but the pioneer dr. himself! Really? Cancellation, I'll be there.
As I sat in his office, he listened intently to my entire story. When I presented my theory about the metformin causing thyroid suppression, hence the need for the Armour, he agreed with me and said that is what he thinks happened. He also took a look at the labs from endo and could determine just in what he saw that I am not dealing with a case of adrenal fatigue that would be affecting the thyroid. Yes, there are labs still outstanding, but he can tell in just what he saw that this is not a proper diagnosis and he was appalled that I was given a script for hydrocortizone. He was also appalled that I was ever diagnosed with the original condition (PCOS) and was ever placed on metformin; 100% misdiagnosis on another dr's part. I trust him wholeheartedly in what he was saying.
OMG, can you believe this? I was on a drug that I didn't need to begin with and it was throwing my thyroid off creating the need for thyroid meds! I will say, however, that he does feel like I have a subclinical case of hypo that may be able to be taken care of through an over the counter thyroid support. I pray this is all what it appears and things are not going to fall apart over time. If I have to stay on meds, so be it, but we have to get this right once and for all.
Tests showed no Hashi's, RT3 was 225 (90-350). My blood sugars and insulin were also tested, perfect. I am currently taking 15mg Armour 7am and 15 mg 3pm. Even a few days with this, I feel a slight overload starting to happen. The good news is that I am not getting the underload anymore at all. What do you make of this?? Dr. also said that as long as my TSH has not been below 1.0 for an extended period of time (which it has not), my thyroid has not been permanantly supressed.
So, tell me again that T3 does NOT build!! It seems to be in me?? Could it be that I simply do not need it, "my cup is full" even though my numbers are not high? I fear that as I stay at the lower dose things will not hold, they will fall. Again, this is fear talking. I am so thankful for all the positive info he shared. I know that I am not out of the woods with totally coming off this med and I may struggle here, but I am confident that something will be determined and this roller coaster will come to a stop.
Would adding a T4 component dilute the effects of the T3 making it not overload? Too many questions, too few answers. Maybe straight T4 is my answer. The dr. felt so badly for me in all that I've come through with all of this (I also shared my lists of stressors so he could evaluate for AF) and gave me his cell number in case things get crazy until the next time I can get levels drawn. Personally, my biggest guage will be how I feel along the way. Thanks!
See? I knew it...I can spot those genes a mile away (or 3,000 in this case)! We went to Germany a while back...do you know the shopkeepers wash their sidewalks before they open in the morning? It gave me a whole new perspective on omy husband!
I'm afraid the knee jerk reactions are pretty commn these days...yes, unfortunately I've seen a few of those lately myself.
I'm not sure I agree with your husband that you don't need thyroid meds. You tried going without back in February/March, and it didn't pan out really well. I do think you need to adjust your FT3/FT4 balance, but IF you do have adrenal issues, those have to be addressed first, or at least at the same time.
I don't know what to tell you to do about your heredity, but if you find something, let me know...maybe my husband can use it! LOL
I'm afraid the knee jerk reactions are pretty commn these days...yes, unfortunately I've seen a few of those lately myself.
I'm not sure I agree with your husband that you don't need thyroid meds. You tried going without back in February/March, and it didn't pan out really well. I do think you need to adjust your FT3/FT4 balance, but IF you do have adrenal issues, those have to be addressed first, or at least at the same time.
I don't know what to tell you to do about your heredity, but if you find something, let me know...maybe my husband can use it! LOL
lol, it will never actually BE perfection, just always striving. I am German as well, must be genetic because my dad is just like me, maybe worse!
If I examine my REAL fear in all of this, it is what treatment is it going to take? This last internal med dr. who does not believe there is accurate testing for adrenal fatigue (the one who tried me on the supplements) just sort of casually threw me a script for a steroid! No testing, no nothing, just here, try this, it may work. Seriously? My doc friend called this nothing more than a dumb @ss knee jerk reaction on his part. You can probably imagine why I am petrified of all of this. I have wasted so much time and money on him, mainly time, and time is of essence with all this lack of thyroid stability.
My husband is convinced that my body is telling me I do not need this drug. I cut back a bit more today and the second dose still overloaded. The tell tale will be what will happen in a couple of days. Will everything start falling overall as I continue with a lower dose (and I mean like a pinhead size snip of a pill, maybe like 5mg)? Pattern has it that it will, but I keep hoping that this time will be different. Perhaps it will be and I will be able to stabilize at a much lower dose than before. Perhaps the ratio of T3/T4 no longer suits my body, as you menitoned.
I called for my RT3 results and they are still pending. I was to see this internal med dr. on Thurs to go over things, but I really have no need to. I did not go ahead with the steroid and I figure I can discuss the RT3 with you or this new dr. No sense in wasting another dime on this guy or another minute.
Thanks, will keep you posted...
If I examine my REAL fear in all of this, it is what treatment is it going to take? This last internal med dr. who does not believe there is accurate testing for adrenal fatigue (the one who tried me on the supplements) just sort of casually threw me a script for a steroid! No testing, no nothing, just here, try this, it may work. Seriously? My doc friend called this nothing more than a dumb @ss knee jerk reaction on his part. You can probably imagine why I am petrified of all of this. I have wasted so much time and money on him, mainly time, and time is of essence with all this lack of thyroid stability.
My husband is convinced that my body is telling me I do not need this drug. I cut back a bit more today and the second dose still overloaded. The tell tale will be what will happen in a couple of days. Will everything start falling overall as I continue with a lower dose (and I mean like a pinhead size snip of a pill, maybe like 5mg)? Pattern has it that it will, but I keep hoping that this time will be different. Perhaps it will be and I will be able to stabilize at a much lower dose than before. Perhaps the ratio of T3/T4 no longer suits my body, as you menitoned.
I called for my RT3 results and they are still pending. I was to see this internal med dr. on Thurs to go over things, but I really have no need to. I did not go ahead with the steroid and I figure I can discuss the RT3 with you or this new dr. No sense in wasting another dime on this guy or another minute.
Thanks, will keep you posted...
It sounds like you're making some real progress. I'm glad to hear about the comprehensive adrenal and thyroid testing...good start. I'm also glad you got a couple of referrals from a doctor you trust. Finding a doctor you really like and can work with is half the battle.
No, you are not "ruined". You'll figure out how to get everything balanced out.
Well, gee, you sound like my husband, "...I must be "perfect" in all I do for people."! I always tease him that he's that way because he's German...his father's just the same, so I figure it's genetic! LOL
Seriously, though, you've obviously had a lot of stress in the last few years. My endo feels that stress is the number 1 cause of thyroid dysfunction. I tend to agree with him but also think it's probably one of the number 1 causes of disease in general. It sounds like your life is calming down, which is good. As you said, "Every thought of my business provides a unnecessary stressful reaction on my part, even though I love what I do. It doesn't have to be this way at all, just my own doing." You know, you really don't have to be "perfect" for everyone...you have to try as hard as you can, but you have to recognize your limitations (human limitations!), and you have to have something left over for YOU. It's a juggling act and an art. After all, what are all those people going to do if you're not well enough to shower all that perfection on them?
No, you are not "ruined". You'll figure out how to get everything balanced out.
Well, gee, you sound like my husband, "...I must be "perfect" in all I do for people."! I always tease him that he's that way because he's German...his father's just the same, so I figure it's genetic! LOL
Seriously, though, you've obviously had a lot of stress in the last few years. My endo feels that stress is the number 1 cause of thyroid dysfunction. I tend to agree with him but also think it's probably one of the number 1 causes of disease in general. It sounds like your life is calming down, which is good. As you said, "Every thought of my business provides a unnecessary stressful reaction on my part, even though I love what I do. It doesn't have to be this way at all, just my own doing." You know, you really don't have to be "perfect" for everyone...you have to try as hard as you can, but you have to recognize your limitations (human limitations!), and you have to have something left over for YOU. It's a juggling act and an art. After all, what are all those people going to do if you're not well enough to shower all that perfection on them?
Current symptoms are different from wear off, even though I still feel the wear off. Current hyper symptoms are most prevalent while the T3 is in action (better, but not fully gone, once the T3 totally wears off) and my pill has not been cut back for a few days. Bottom line is this: regardless of what went on with that other med, I am in a position now, to work with now.
If I must admit, I feel that I am in denial of the fact that I am dealing with adrenal fatigue, which is the underlying issue of this whole thing. Thanks to the T3 in the thy pill, I run ok for a time, until it starts climbing and falling then pill has to be altered. When pill has to be cut back a bit and things start "falling", AF symtoms show up full force; hence, my "full blown hypo symptoms". When I can add a bit of the pill, the real issue is masked for the time being. This said, I do not believe that I have a MAJOR issue with AF, just sluggish, yet very much there, that needs to be addressed in one way or another.
I went to the Adrenal Insufficiency category on this forum and the people that responded do not believe that there is such thing as AF, you either have A Insufficiency or you do not. The endo that I saw recently (who was a black and white, strictly numbers kind of guy, symptoms are most secondary to numbers) said the same thing. "You are either pregnant or you are not; same as adrenal insufficiency; no weak adrenals, nothing in between". I am having blood drawn tomorrow for a comprehensive list of adrenal functions as well as thyroid panel.
For now, I have to do what I have to do with the thyroid pill to carry on until I get the right help/treatment. I have a dr. friend who has referred me to a couple of docs that deal exclusively in the adrenal/thyroid area. The one is on vacation and will return tomorrow and the other will be contacted by me today. My doc friend assured me that I am not "ruined" and this will be fixed. He sees it all the time and it is really not that bad.
I know I've said this before, but as I ponder the past four years, I realize just how much stress life has thrown my way. Although I love my work (custom decorative painter), I have allowed it to consume me in that I must be "perfect" in all I do for people. Every thought of my business provides a unnecessary stressful reaction on my part, even though I love what I do. It doesn't have to be this way at all, just my own doing. Thankfully, my husband makes a very good living allowing me to take time off now to recover my health. I had a baby four years ago and was not really ready to do so; ridiculous post partum depression for a long time, stress beyond measure coming to grips with being a mom and dealing with a baby then a toddler (love him dearly, love my role as mom now, love it!), six major-ish surgeries between 2006 and 2009 (while the baby was just a baby and help was very limited with a traveling husband and no family around), taking me out of my consistent workouts and my work which was my identity at the time, a major job loss (husband, who landed a beauty of a job recently), some serious marital strife along the way, death of grandma and my precious yellow lab who was my baby for 15 years, along with several health diagnosis' that I just couldn't accept (unrelated to current issues), etc. etc. As I go through this list, and I know you all could make your own list, it is no wonder why I sit where I sit about now. I am so grateful for my health, which is great despite current dealings, amongst all the other blessings in my life. What a huge lesson in all of this... always a reason for everything, always. Will keep you posted.. RT3 results will be this week.
If I must admit, I feel that I am in denial of the fact that I am dealing with adrenal fatigue, which is the underlying issue of this whole thing. Thanks to the T3 in the thy pill, I run ok for a time, until it starts climbing and falling then pill has to be altered. When pill has to be cut back a bit and things start "falling", AF symtoms show up full force; hence, my "full blown hypo symptoms". When I can add a bit of the pill, the real issue is masked for the time being. This said, I do not believe that I have a MAJOR issue with AF, just sluggish, yet very much there, that needs to be addressed in one way or another.
I went to the Adrenal Insufficiency category on this forum and the people that responded do not believe that there is such thing as AF, you either have A Insufficiency or you do not. The endo that I saw recently (who was a black and white, strictly numbers kind of guy, symptoms are most secondary to numbers) said the same thing. "You are either pregnant or you are not; same as adrenal insufficiency; no weak adrenals, nothing in between". I am having blood drawn tomorrow for a comprehensive list of adrenal functions as well as thyroid panel.
For now, I have to do what I have to do with the thyroid pill to carry on until I get the right help/treatment. I have a dr. friend who has referred me to a couple of docs that deal exclusively in the adrenal/thyroid area. The one is on vacation and will return tomorrow and the other will be contacted by me today. My doc friend assured me that I am not "ruined" and this will be fixed. He sees it all the time and it is really not that bad.
I know I've said this before, but as I ponder the past four years, I realize just how much stress life has thrown my way. Although I love my work (custom decorative painter), I have allowed it to consume me in that I must be "perfect" in all I do for people. Every thought of my business provides a unnecessary stressful reaction on my part, even though I love what I do. It doesn't have to be this way at all, just my own doing. Thankfully, my husband makes a very good living allowing me to take time off now to recover my health. I had a baby four years ago and was not really ready to do so; ridiculous post partum depression for a long time, stress beyond measure coming to grips with being a mom and dealing with a baby then a toddler (love him dearly, love my role as mom now, love it!), six major-ish surgeries between 2006 and 2009 (while the baby was just a baby and help was very limited with a traveling husband and no family around), taking me out of my consistent workouts and my work which was my identity at the time, a major job loss (husband, who landed a beauty of a job recently), some serious marital strife along the way, death of grandma and my precious yellow lab who was my baby for 15 years, along with several health diagnosis' that I just couldn't accept (unrelated to current issues), etc. etc. As I go through this list, and I know you all could make your own list, it is no wonder why I sit where I sit about now. I am so grateful for my health, which is great despite current dealings, amongst all the other blessings in my life. What a huge lesson in all of this... always a reason for everything, always. Will keep you posted.. RT3 results will be this week.
The entire time you've been on Armour, you were also on the other med until last February, when you d/c'ed the other med. Just after d/cing is when you started experiencing your current symptoms, although you did say that before d/cing "...I could always feel the effects of the T3 wear off which really disrupted my day." So, would you say your current symptoms are a worsening of the "wear off" that you've always experienced or something different?
I was on both Armour’s website and the drugs.com interactions website, and both indicated that Armour can affect oral hypoglycemic meds, but neither said anything about oral hypoglycemic meds affecting Armour. However, we do know the whole endocrine system is interdependent, and we all know that there are other interactions besides those that are “common” and documented.
Your “normal” FT3 prior to February was around 2.9-3.0, and FT4 was around 1.0. Both are fairly low in the ranges, but I wouldn’t care a lot about that if you felt well. I’m very comfortable low in the ranges, unlike most people (people on this forum, or perhaps forums in general, anyway!). Your labs on 6/7/11 weren’t too far from that…2.9 and 0.9. “Overload” is a very individual concept. You don’t have to be over the test range to be hyper, you just have to be over your own personal range. I have been hyper with my levels not even close to top of range. Your test range for FT3 is 2.3-4.2. However, YOU are not going to feel comfortable just because you are within that range. Your personal range might be 2.8-3.2 (just an example). Mine might be 2.6-2.8. We get out of that range, and neither of us feels well. Test ranges are a guide, but we all need to find our own range.
In some ways T4 doesn’t “do anything”. Your cells can’t use it until it’s converted to T3. However, it is very important to have it available for conversion to T3. One of our members recently experimented on himself using the same reasoning…why do we need T4 if our cells can only use T3? After a short time on T3-only, he found out…he became very hypo. I don’t know the exact mechanism for how that works (don’t know if anyone does), but our bodies may go into a kind of “shutdown” mode when there’s no T4 available for conversion.
“…is it safe to say that since I have been on thy. meds since 2/09 my body is now dependent upon them and that my healthy thyroid was put in this state unnecessarily?”. No, I don’t think so at all; don’t beat yourself up over this. First of all, your labs were pretty dismal prior to meds. Second, and more importantly, you felt better once on meds, a definite indication that you needed them.
Yes, if I take your question correctly, I do know people who have been successfully treated and have good energy, mind set, etc. I’d consider myself in that group…there were lots of trials and tribulations along the way, but I feel fine…well, except for that getting old thing! It’s true, getting old ain’t for sissies!
More to think about… I’ll be interested to see the results of your RT3. When are you expecting those?
Don't canonize me just yet! I just hope some of the information ends up being useful.
I was on both Armour’s website and the drugs.com interactions website, and both indicated that Armour can affect oral hypoglycemic meds, but neither said anything about oral hypoglycemic meds affecting Armour. However, we do know the whole endocrine system is interdependent, and we all know that there are other interactions besides those that are “common” and documented.
Your “normal” FT3 prior to February was around 2.9-3.0, and FT4 was around 1.0. Both are fairly low in the ranges, but I wouldn’t care a lot about that if you felt well. I’m very comfortable low in the ranges, unlike most people (people on this forum, or perhaps forums in general, anyway!). Your labs on 6/7/11 weren’t too far from that…2.9 and 0.9. “Overload” is a very individual concept. You don’t have to be over the test range to be hyper, you just have to be over your own personal range. I have been hyper with my levels not even close to top of range. Your test range for FT3 is 2.3-4.2. However, YOU are not going to feel comfortable just because you are within that range. Your personal range might be 2.8-3.2 (just an example). Mine might be 2.6-2.8. We get out of that range, and neither of us feels well. Test ranges are a guide, but we all need to find our own range.
In some ways T4 doesn’t “do anything”. Your cells can’t use it until it’s converted to T3. However, it is very important to have it available for conversion to T3. One of our members recently experimented on himself using the same reasoning…why do we need T4 if our cells can only use T3? After a short time on T3-only, he found out…he became very hypo. I don’t know the exact mechanism for how that works (don’t know if anyone does), but our bodies may go into a kind of “shutdown” mode when there’s no T4 available for conversion.
“…is it safe to say that since I have been on thy. meds since 2/09 my body is now dependent upon them and that my healthy thyroid was put in this state unnecessarily?”. No, I don’t think so at all; don’t beat yourself up over this. First of all, your labs were pretty dismal prior to meds. Second, and more importantly, you felt better once on meds, a definite indication that you needed them.
Yes, if I take your question correctly, I do know people who have been successfully treated and have good energy, mind set, etc. I’d consider myself in that group…there were lots of trials and tribulations along the way, but I feel fine…well, except for that getting old thing! It’s true, getting old ain’t for sissies!
More to think about… I’ll be interested to see the results of your RT3. When are you expecting those?
Don't canonize me just yet! I just hope some of the information ends up being useful.
Oops, why did that link not post? Is this against the rules? If so, I am terribly sorry, didn't mean to break them. If not, and it was an error, I will give you the link again, just need permission to do so I guess.
One last tid bit of info I looked up after my last post: If you go to Armour's official website, take a look at drug interactions. Armour thyroid interacts with oral hypoglycemic medications. Oral hypoglycemic medication = metformin. The effects, they state, are poorly understood. This all I needed to hear. Now, to adjust accordingly.
http://www.*************************/ is the link to the site. The info was in the adrenal section.
I was on the other med prior to going on Armour, so my 60 mg dose Armour that I took prior to 2/11 was stable. That other med was Metformin (diabetes drug) which was prescribed for polycystic ovarian syndrome which has totally resolved since then; no need for meds, went off 2/11. Strange symptoms began to emerge within a few days of d/c this med. Within a week and a half, clear feelings/symptoms of too much thyroid medication had emerged. First week of March, went off Armour all together assuming it was the metformin that had caused the thyroid supression (which I emphatically still believe it was) that showed up at time of diagnosis and that I was never truly a hypo anyways. I had no true and specific symptoms of hypo, just very fatigued, energy loss and depression. With the low test results along with mentioned symptoms, the practitioner felt that I could benefit from a low dose of Armour. Within 6 weeks, I felt like a new person; amazing results.
My only complaint was that I could always feel the effects of the T3 wear off which really disrupted my day. This was one big reason I was so excited to get off this drug and really thought that my body would kick in full speed. Stupidly, I went off both drugs cold turkey; yes, stupidly.
Goolarra, you are onto something I am sure with the improved conversion and/or absorption you mentioned. It is just too much of a connection between going off the med and this all happening. Along the way while on the 60mg prior to all of this, I had labs done periodically and I hovered around 290-300 range for FT3 and around 1.0 for T4, TSH went around mid ones to mid twos or so, nothing too bad. Once going off Armour on March 7th, I went three weeks with severely declining results, severly, could have never made it without the drug back in my body. At this point my labs were as follows: TSH 2.54, FT3 2.4 (2.3-4.2), FT4 1.02 (.89-1.76). I went back on Armour on 3/28 and was retested on 6/7/11 which was this: TSH 1.32, FT3 2.9(2.3-4.2), FT4 .9 (.89-1.76). I felt better and better along the way as things climbed back up; however, I was at a point where significant feelings of overload had set a few days prior to this test. Obviously, my labs show nothing close to a true overload. This said, I have a very strong feeling it has something to do with the T3 overwhelming the mix on a daily basis. I know it is not a building hormone, but I do believe that the T3 in my body creates a temporary surplus over a few days/week maybe and causes the feelings I have mentioned. When I reduce just a tiny bit, the surplus dissipates over the next few days/week and I am left with very little to run on overall, leaving me in a state of extreme energy loss, brain fog, impatience and frustration, no motivation, etc. This is what it feels like, not sure if I am right on, but this is the picture I am getting when I attempt to describe what is going on. It's too quick of a thing one way or another to think it is anything besides the T3 component of the mix. Perhaps this is where the extra T4 would come in handy? I am not sure how this works since I never thought the T4 did anything anyways. My balance of T3/T4 mix has not significantly changed one way or another from prior to d/c of meds, again, thinking it is an "immediate" T3 situation.
Ok, so, IF I was not truly hypo when diagnosed, ( my labs were this: TSH 2.38, Total T3 was 84 (97-219), FT4 1.1 .8-1.8). Total vs FT3 was erroneously tested, but the practitioner said she could interpret and could see that the FT3 would have been very low as well), and it was in fact the other drug causing supression of T3, is it safe to say that since I have been on thy. meds since 2/09 my body is now dependent upon them and that my healthy thyroid was put in this state unnecessarily? I don't even know if I want to know the answer to that question. I know they say live with no regrets, but this is a tough one here; wishing I would have NEVER went on. If I need to stay on forever, it is my hope that I can live in such a way that this drug does not control my mind, thoughts, energy, etc. because that is what this has all become. Do any of you seriously know of anyone who has come off successfully and lived with good energy, mind set, etc.?
Perhaps I am in denial; my first thyroid test prior to going on anything, metformin and/or Armour, was this: TSH 3.33, FT3 296, FT4 1.0 (.8-1.8). Ok, starting to make myself feel better. These labs (4/08) were not all that stellar either and this was prior to anything that may have hindered the results, right? FYI, the internal med dr. wrote me a script for Armour at this point which I never filled and never followed up on until 3/09 when another level turned up low (different practitioner at this point). So sorry about all the info and long posts.
Goolarra, you are a saint. Thanks so much for your loyalty to me in all of this. Clearly, you know your stuff and you are a very caring, giving person who I believe genuinely wants me to resolve this issue; so grateful...
I was on the other med prior to going on Armour, so my 60 mg dose Armour that I took prior to 2/11 was stable. That other med was Metformin (diabetes drug) which was prescribed for polycystic ovarian syndrome which has totally resolved since then; no need for meds, went off 2/11. Strange symptoms began to emerge within a few days of d/c this med. Within a week and a half, clear feelings/symptoms of too much thyroid medication had emerged. First week of March, went off Armour all together assuming it was the metformin that had caused the thyroid supression (which I emphatically still believe it was) that showed up at time of diagnosis and that I was never truly a hypo anyways. I had no true and specific symptoms of hypo, just very fatigued, energy loss and depression. With the low test results along with mentioned symptoms, the practitioner felt that I could benefit from a low dose of Armour. Within 6 weeks, I felt like a new person; amazing results.
My only complaint was that I could always feel the effects of the T3 wear off which really disrupted my day. This was one big reason I was so excited to get off this drug and really thought that my body would kick in full speed. Stupidly, I went off both drugs cold turkey; yes, stupidly.
Goolarra, you are onto something I am sure with the improved conversion and/or absorption you mentioned. It is just too much of a connection between going off the med and this all happening. Along the way while on the 60mg prior to all of this, I had labs done periodically and I hovered around 290-300 range for FT3 and around 1.0 for T4, TSH went around mid ones to mid twos or so, nothing too bad. Once going off Armour on March 7th, I went three weeks with severely declining results, severly, could have never made it without the drug back in my body. At this point my labs were as follows: TSH 2.54, FT3 2.4 (2.3-4.2), FT4 1.02 (.89-1.76). I went back on Armour on 3/28 and was retested on 6/7/11 which was this: TSH 1.32, FT3 2.9(2.3-4.2), FT4 .9 (.89-1.76). I felt better and better along the way as things climbed back up; however, I was at a point where significant feelings of overload had set a few days prior to this test. Obviously, my labs show nothing close to a true overload. This said, I have a very strong feeling it has something to do with the T3 overwhelming the mix on a daily basis. I know it is not a building hormone, but I do believe that the T3 in my body creates a temporary surplus over a few days/week maybe and causes the feelings I have mentioned. When I reduce just a tiny bit, the surplus dissipates over the next few days/week and I am left with very little to run on overall, leaving me in a state of extreme energy loss, brain fog, impatience and frustration, no motivation, etc. This is what it feels like, not sure if I am right on, but this is the picture I am getting when I attempt to describe what is going on. It's too quick of a thing one way or another to think it is anything besides the T3 component of the mix. Perhaps this is where the extra T4 would come in handy? I am not sure how this works since I never thought the T4 did anything anyways. My balance of T3/T4 mix has not significantly changed one way or another from prior to d/c of meds, again, thinking it is an "immediate" T3 situation.
Ok, so, IF I was not truly hypo when diagnosed, ( my labs were this: TSH 2.38, Total T3 was 84 (97-219), FT4 1.1 .8-1.8). Total vs FT3 was erroneously tested, but the practitioner said she could interpret and could see that the FT3 would have been very low as well), and it was in fact the other drug causing supression of T3, is it safe to say that since I have been on thy. meds since 2/09 my body is now dependent upon them and that my healthy thyroid was put in this state unnecessarily? I don't even know if I want to know the answer to that question. I know they say live with no regrets, but this is a tough one here; wishing I would have NEVER went on. If I need to stay on forever, it is my hope that I can live in such a way that this drug does not control my mind, thoughts, energy, etc. because that is what this has all become. Do any of you seriously know of anyone who has come off successfully and lived with good energy, mind set, etc.?
Perhaps I am in denial; my first thyroid test prior to going on anything, metformin and/or Armour, was this: TSH 3.33, FT3 296, FT4 1.0 (.8-1.8). Ok, starting to make myself feel better. These labs (4/08) were not all that stellar either and this was prior to anything that may have hindered the results, right? FYI, the internal med dr. wrote me a script for Armour at this point which I never filled and never followed up on until 3/09 when another level turned up low (different practitioner at this point). So sorry about all the info and long posts.
Goolarra, you are a saint. Thanks so much for your loyalty to me in all of this. Clearly, you know your stuff and you are a very caring, giving person who I believe genuinely wants me to resolve this issue; so grateful...
Sorry, that was probably too much info. Can you give me a link to the STTM site so I can read it for myself and try to be more specific rather than explaining all three guesses in more detail?
It might just be best to wait for your RT3 test to come in and then go into RT3 dominance in more detail if it looks like you have it. RTH is an extremely rare condition and is due to a genetic mutation. I was just trying to figure out what you had read on the STTM site...I wasn't suggesting I thought you had any of this.
An U/S would tell you if you have nodules.
Antibodies can rear their ugly, little heads at any time. However, I think that, also, is rather unusual (to develop antibodies AFTER becoming hypo for some undetermined reason). Bear in mind that I have read that a small percentage of people with Hashi's test negative to antibodies. To tell you the truth that's something I can't get my mind around. Hashi's is an autoimmune disease, so how can you have Hashi's without antibodies? OR, is it that they TEST negative for some reason, but actually have the antibodies? Anyway, yes, some people with Hashi's do have swings from day to day.
All scenarios have a solution...nope, we're not going to let you off that easy!
What other med did you go off? Yes, other meds can have that effect (binding or otherwise lessening absorption of T3 and T4 or impeding conversion of T4 to T3). Were you on the other med the entire time you were on Armour prior to February? Your FT4 was quite low, if I remember correctly, but your FT3 was quite good??? One thought: suppose your conversion has ramped up since d/cing the other med. Is it possible that you no longer convert slowly and the natural conversion process has kicked back in? Brainstorming... Can you look back in labs to see if your balance of FT4 to FT3 changed significantly after d/cing the med, i.e. was FT3 always high and FT4 low, or did that change when you d/ced?
You have to be persistent, and you have to research, and you have to be your own advocate. You're doing everything right (in that respect!)...you'll get it figured out.
It might just be best to wait for your RT3 test to come in and then go into RT3 dominance in more detail if it looks like you have it. RTH is an extremely rare condition and is due to a genetic mutation. I was just trying to figure out what you had read on the STTM site...I wasn't suggesting I thought you had any of this.
An U/S would tell you if you have nodules.
Antibodies can rear their ugly, little heads at any time. However, I think that, also, is rather unusual (to develop antibodies AFTER becoming hypo for some undetermined reason). Bear in mind that I have read that a small percentage of people with Hashi's test negative to antibodies. To tell you the truth that's something I can't get my mind around. Hashi's is an autoimmune disease, so how can you have Hashi's without antibodies? OR, is it that they TEST negative for some reason, but actually have the antibodies? Anyway, yes, some people with Hashi's do have swings from day to day.
All scenarios have a solution...nope, we're not going to let you off that easy!
What other med did you go off? Yes, other meds can have that effect (binding or otherwise lessening absorption of T3 and T4 or impeding conversion of T4 to T3). Were you on the other med the entire time you were on Armour prior to February? Your FT4 was quite low, if I remember correctly, but your FT3 was quite good??? One thought: suppose your conversion has ramped up since d/cing the other med. Is it possible that you no longer convert slowly and the natural conversion process has kicked back in? Brainstorming... Can you look back in labs to see if your balance of FT4 to FT3 changed significantly after d/cing the med, i.e. was FT3 always high and FT4 low, or did that change when you d/ced?
You have to be persistent, and you have to research, and you have to be your own advocate. You're doing everything right (in that respect!)...you'll get it figured out.
I do not understand what you are saying in the first scenario, at all. If this is what is happening, would it just all of the sudden started out of the blue after being on the meds for a couple of years? What is the solution for this?
The second scenario: I have heard of this but have no understanding of that either. I just had RT3 checked and will be getting results this week. Solution for this?
The third scenario: I do not have high FT3 and FT4 on paper; still lowish as of June, no where near high though, cannot imagine this is what is going on.
I have no nodules that I know of; I am guessing I do not, as I have no symptoms. How would I know though?
As of 3/09, I had no antibodies issues, no Hashi's. Can sub clinical hypo become Hashi's at some point or does it not work this way? This is being checked as well, through an endo I met with for adrenal discussion. He is also testing some other areas regarding adrenal issues.
I have tried cytomel/synthroid combo back in 8/09; train wreck. I tried just the Synthroid first, terrible results, then added Cytomel. Horrible for me. I do remember you saying that I may need to add T4 to Armour. Ok, if I could arrive at a dr. that can really delve into this with good understanding of all the ins and outs you present above, I may get somewhere.
I have ALWAYS taken the first pill at 7am, which is/was 30mg Armour. It has always been the second pill that I have manipulated either in times taken or cutting pieces off/adding a piece. So...the last couple of mornings I have cut a small piece (about 1/4 of the 30) off and it seems to be fine so far. As of about 11am I can feel it starting to wear off, nothing too serious, but my usual symptoms of wear off. I am going to take about the same amount at 2:30 and see what happens. The pattern has it that it will either overload or underload in a couple of days. Would this almost daily type of flip flopping be congruent with Hashi's? I cannot imagine Hashi's would correlate with a small piece of pill here or there. I have no real symptoms of anything serious; just up and down according to meds. I cannot get away from the feeling that something, and I know it is not supposed to be, is overloading and underloading for whatever reason. I also cannot imagine that I am unable to handle even a full 30mg of this drug at any one time. Do you know of people that even though there numbers are fairly low do all right on a very low maintenance dose, say 45mg?
Ok, so in all scenarios, is there a reasonable solution, or am I stuck perhaps with sub optimal results from here on out?
Keep in mind, I was on 60 mg (30/30) Armour from 3/09 to 2/11 without any of this going on, just uncomfortable feelings of the wear off. This all started in 2/11 once going off another med. All of the sudden over a couple week period following cessation of the other med, 60mg became too much.
Just a perception on my part; Could it have been that when I was taking the other med that it was binding some of the T3 or T4 causing the ratio to be all right at that point? I.e.--maybe it was only letting a certain amount of either absorb but now it is letting too much of one or the other absorb. I guess that is what you are saying Goolarra about maybe adding T4.
So can you tell this is all driving me to the looney ward? lol! I am very in tune with my body and feel like this is a simple tweak that has yet to be discovered. This is why I am SO persistent in getting to the bottom of it to get it right once and for all. Thanks to all of you!!
The second scenario: I have heard of this but have no understanding of that either. I just had RT3 checked and will be getting results this week. Solution for this?
The third scenario: I do not have high FT3 and FT4 on paper; still lowish as of June, no where near high though, cannot imagine this is what is going on.
I have no nodules that I know of; I am guessing I do not, as I have no symptoms. How would I know though?
As of 3/09, I had no antibodies issues, no Hashi's. Can sub clinical hypo become Hashi's at some point or does it not work this way? This is being checked as well, through an endo I met with for adrenal discussion. He is also testing some other areas regarding adrenal issues.
I have tried cytomel/synthroid combo back in 8/09; train wreck. I tried just the Synthroid first, terrible results, then added Cytomel. Horrible for me. I do remember you saying that I may need to add T4 to Armour. Ok, if I could arrive at a dr. that can really delve into this with good understanding of all the ins and outs you present above, I may get somewhere.
I have ALWAYS taken the first pill at 7am, which is/was 30mg Armour. It has always been the second pill that I have manipulated either in times taken or cutting pieces off/adding a piece. So...the last couple of mornings I have cut a small piece (about 1/4 of the 30) off and it seems to be fine so far. As of about 11am I can feel it starting to wear off, nothing too serious, but my usual symptoms of wear off. I am going to take about the same amount at 2:30 and see what happens. The pattern has it that it will either overload or underload in a couple of days. Would this almost daily type of flip flopping be congruent with Hashi's? I cannot imagine Hashi's would correlate with a small piece of pill here or there. I have no real symptoms of anything serious; just up and down according to meds. I cannot get away from the feeling that something, and I know it is not supposed to be, is overloading and underloading for whatever reason. I also cannot imagine that I am unable to handle even a full 30mg of this drug at any one time. Do you know of people that even though there numbers are fairly low do all right on a very low maintenance dose, say 45mg?
Ok, so in all scenarios, is there a reasonable solution, or am I stuck perhaps with sub optimal results from here on out?
Keep in mind, I was on 60 mg (30/30) Armour from 3/09 to 2/11 without any of this going on, just uncomfortable feelings of the wear off. This all started in 2/11 once going off another med. All of the sudden over a couple week period following cessation of the other med, 60mg became too much.
Just a perception on my part; Could it have been that when I was taking the other med that it was binding some of the T3 or T4 causing the ratio to be all right at that point? I.e.--maybe it was only letting a certain amount of either absorb but now it is letting too much of one or the other absorb. I guess that is what you are saying Goolarra about maybe adding T4.
So can you tell this is all driving me to the looney ward? lol! I am very in tune with my body and feel like this is a simple tweak that has yet to be discovered. This is why I am SO persistent in getting to the bottom of it to get it right once and for all. Thanks to all of you!!
Well, not having read the whole thing, I have to take a guess, or three:
First guess...I'm wondering if she's talking about T3 and T4 binding with protein in the blood and thus being unavalable to cells and for conversion. For example, the FT3 test tells how much "free" or unbound T3 is in your blood; TT3 shows the total, bound and unbound. I'm wondering if she's calling it "pooling" when too much binds to protein.
Second guess...RT3 dominance. Our livers convert T4 to both FT3 and RT3. RT3 is inert, and it's a mirror image of FT3, so it can dock at T3 receptors in cells upside-down. Once it's docked at the receptors, it blocks T3 from getting in, so even though FT3 levels can be in range, T3 can't get to the cells.
Third guess (the second scenario - high FT3 and FT4, still hypo)...thyroid hormone resistance. People with THR have to have extremely high concentrations of T3 in their blood before cells can use it. Sometimes this is several times the upper limit of the reference range.
I'm sorry it stopped working for you. I had high hopes. Refresh my memory (I should probably know this), but have you ever tried a synthetic T3/T4 combo where each component can be maniulated separately?
First guess...I'm wondering if she's talking about T3 and T4 binding with protein in the blood and thus being unavalable to cells and for conversion. For example, the FT3 test tells how much "free" or unbound T3 is in your blood; TT3 shows the total, bound and unbound. I'm wondering if she's calling it "pooling" when too much binds to protein.
Second guess...RT3 dominance. Our livers convert T4 to both FT3 and RT3. RT3 is inert, and it's a mirror image of FT3, so it can dock at T3 receptors in cells upside-down. Once it's docked at the receptors, it blocks T3 from getting in, so even though FT3 levels can be in range, T3 can't get to the cells.
Third guess (the second scenario - high FT3 and FT4, still hypo)...thyroid hormone resistance. People with THR have to have extremely high concentrations of T3 in their blood before cells can use it. Sometimes this is several times the upper limit of the reference range.
I'm sorry it stopped working for you. I had high hopes. Refresh my memory (I should probably know this), but have you ever tried a synthetic T3/T4 combo where each component can be maniulated separately?
COMMUNITY LEADER
Do you have nodules on your thyroid? Nodules can often leak hormone independently of the thyroid, which could make you hyper. Another thought is that if you have Hashi's, it's common to swing between hyper and hypo, as the thyroid sputters, then stops, then sputters. This can happen for some time, before the thyroid finally just stops producing and you are totally dependent on the meds.
I read about this on the Stop the Thyroid Madness site. It goes on to explain if you have adrenal issues, it is possible that your meds could be storing in the blood (pooling of meds) vs. being sent out to cells making you feel hyper even though your numbers and your dose would not indicate this (still low numbers/low dose). OR, you may have high numbers but remain with hypo symptoms. The first describes what I feel; may not be what is going on, but it seems to describe my case. I was hoping it would provide an explanation as to why I am still flip flopping hypo to hyper in a matter of a few days, have to keep tweaking my dose every few days or so of Armour.
Goolara, the thread we just went through a few weeks back where I said that the adrenal supplements had fixed my issues; well, for about two weeks or so this was the case, then I was back to square one. I am at a loss and my saga continues.
Goolara, the thread we just went through a few weeks back where I said that the adrenal supplements had fixed my issues; well, for about two weeks or so this was the case, then I was back to square one. I am at a loss and my saga continues.
COMMUNITY LEADER
Never heard of it -- where did this come from, and does it have to with alternating/averaging meds?
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Thyroid Disorders Community
We tapped the CDC for information on what you need to know about radiation exposure
Endocrinologist Mark Lupo, MD, answers 10 questions about thyroid disorders and how to treat them
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
STIs are the most common cause of genital sores.
