Aa
Things that make you go Hmm
I have heard that x amount of people with thyroid antibodies do not go on to develop thyroid dysfunction.
My question is, unless a person has been followed since discovery of antibodies and by the same doctor (or whomever) -how is this known? Is there any literature showing the research (not just the statement) behind this?
Another thing I have wondered: when somebody has been having many symptoms, but their TSH is within reference range (say 3.25) but with antibodies, some doctors may treat and other's will not. Would it be justifiable for the doctor, who will not treat to state: "You don't have thyroid dysfunction?"
How many have been told this and their labs would move out of range? Do their symptoms somehow only count when labs move out of range?
The reason I ask this, as I know people (don't we all?) who've dealt with symptoms, in range labs...who would one day be treated.
Before then, told, "You are fine" and the terrible one: It's in your head or perhaps you suffer hypochondrias.
If this has been said to a patient and sometime later, their labs move out of range-does the doctor, who's said the above think, "Hmm. Must be coincidence?"
My question is, unless a person has been followed since discovery of antibodies and by the same doctor (or whomever) -how is this known? Is there any literature showing the research (not just the statement) behind this?
Another thing I have wondered: when somebody has been having many symptoms, but their TSH is within reference range (say 3.25) but with antibodies, some doctors may treat and other's will not. Would it be justifiable for the doctor, who will not treat to state: "You don't have thyroid dysfunction?"
How many have been told this and their labs would move out of range? Do their symptoms somehow only count when labs move out of range?
The reason I ask this, as I know people (don't we all?) who've dealt with symptoms, in range labs...who would one day be treated.
Before then, told, "You are fine" and the terrible one: It's in your head or perhaps you suffer hypochondrias.
If this has been said to a patient and sometime later, their labs move out of range-does the doctor, who's said the above think, "Hmm. Must be coincidence?"
I guess I read into it differently from what your intended meaning was, the words used just came across to me as aggressive/confrontational. I'm assuming when it is said "they finally found a doctor" what most people mean is they've found somebody who doesn't dismiss them and is willing to help them find out what the issue is (thyroid, not thyroid, whatever). At least that's what I'm meaning, so for me to read comments directed to me that imply I'm pill-seeking for a quick fix is upsetting. I've had enough of that kind of reception when I go to a doctor who says nothing is wrong with me when clearly something is haywire. Is it definitely my thyroid? I don't know, but I'm not going to find out unless I advocate for a complete investigation - if this isn't the right answer I'll keep pushing until it gets figured out, because I'm not going to continue living like I am right now.
Anyway, to clarify a little more, I'm not seeking treatment for positive antibodies. I said that the antibodies were the lab result that led me focus on the thyroid, then further into it low-end FT labs, etc. led me to seek an endo for another opinion.
Anyway, to clarify a little more, I'm not seeking treatment for positive antibodies. I said that the antibodies were the lab result that led me focus on the thyroid, then further into it low-end FT labs, etc. led me to seek an endo for another opinion.
I wasn't "set off" by your post at all. Why would your post upset anyone? I was merely highlighting a statement saying that they don't treat antibodies they treat TSH. Antibodies wax and wane and a little levo may reduce them a bit, but they will remain and selenium supplementation may have a diabetes complication. I was then seen as "attacking" a specific subclincal patient as not having hypthyroidism and I wasn't attacking her. She's a neat lady.
The only person under attack here is me . I have no idea why that is such an incendiary thing to say when the fact is that it happens and people post here frequently saying they "finally found a doctor" who will treat based on their symptoms.
I suppose the WAY I have to say it is "Oh ! Don't you take no for answer. You just keep looking and you will find a doctor that will listen"
It is not always that great a pill and anyone who has read these boards for months knows that. People will get to good ranges and still have some of the same complaints. They then have to address the complaints separately and heaven forfend anyone say that it might be worth a shot at the outset. The doc on this board makes recommendations of exercise (5 hours a week I believe) for complaints of weight gain and also recommendations for addressing other disorders that continue while on the levo.
I hope your trial helps you.
kitcurious - "Since symptoms are non specific, without the commensurate rise in TSH to at least AACE abnormal levels? I would call that "TSH doesn't matter to being able to get treatment". Merely persistence."
I have to say, while there are a great many people in this forum who post great information (personal stories and medical articles both), there are definitely a few on here whose only objective seems to be to attack others who don't agree with their point of view. I for one welcome ALL the info and all points of view as I feel it makes me a more well rounded and more fully informed individual.
As I said at the beginning of my response to borninquisitive, I didn't go to the doctor at the beginning of all this to finagle a Hashi's diagnosis and start taking pills, and I certainly haven't purposely felt like total **** for the last 9 months just to be "persistent". I am sick and I want to know why. The problem as I see it is that ALL my symptoms and subsequent lab results (low FT4, T3's, antibodies, etc.) which pointed toward Hashi's were being dismissed based on TSH ALONE and no other medical explanation has been found by the docs I've seen so far. There's a lot more to my own experiences I won't go into further at this point - I'm simply saying I'm trying to advocate for my own health care and find out why I am sick. I'm a firm believer that the body acts as a whole, and for me, acting as though each symptom and lab result is an individual event is wasted effort. There is cause and effect, I'm trying to find the cause and treat it rather than cover up all the individual effects with masking agents. So far, taken in whole, everything is pointing toward early Hashi's. I'm definitely not getting better by doing nothing. 'Nuff said.
borninquisitive - I want to apologize, my response to your starting post apparently lit somebody's fuse - I certainly didn't intend for your thread to get jacked because of my response to your train of thought. :) In response to your post to me, I have started care with an endo (yes, with an expensive, medical education, not in a back alley somewhere) who's looking at my WHOLE situation and has suggested (of his own free will) that I try meds to see if it helps. I'll be getting an ultrasound as well, so that should give a more complete picture of my situation.
I'll bow out now, and let you get back to your original post!
I have to say, while there are a great many people in this forum who post great information (personal stories and medical articles both), there are definitely a few on here whose only objective seems to be to attack others who don't agree with their point of view. I for one welcome ALL the info and all points of view as I feel it makes me a more well rounded and more fully informed individual.
As I said at the beginning of my response to borninquisitive, I didn't go to the doctor at the beginning of all this to finagle a Hashi's diagnosis and start taking pills, and I certainly haven't purposely felt like total **** for the last 9 months just to be "persistent". I am sick and I want to know why. The problem as I see it is that ALL my symptoms and subsequent lab results (low FT4, T3's, antibodies, etc.) which pointed toward Hashi's were being dismissed based on TSH ALONE and no other medical explanation has been found by the docs I've seen so far. There's a lot more to my own experiences I won't go into further at this point - I'm simply saying I'm trying to advocate for my own health care and find out why I am sick. I'm a firm believer that the body acts as a whole, and for me, acting as though each symptom and lab result is an individual event is wasted effort. There is cause and effect, I'm trying to find the cause and treat it rather than cover up all the individual effects with masking agents. So far, taken in whole, everything is pointing toward early Hashi's. I'm definitely not getting better by doing nothing. 'Nuff said.
borninquisitive - I want to apologize, my response to your starting post apparently lit somebody's fuse - I certainly didn't intend for your thread to get jacked because of my response to your train of thought. :) In response to your post to me, I have started care with an endo (yes, with an expensive, medical education, not in a back alley somewhere) who's looking at my WHOLE situation and has suggested (of his own free will) that I try meds to see if it helps. I'll be getting an ultrasound as well, so that should give a more complete picture of my situation.
I'll bow out now, and let you get back to your original post!
I am positive the pharmaceutical companies love the TSH for subclinical to get lower and lower too ;-)
I had hypo for years by your standards and worked out regularly. Apparently it's possible. It's not patronizing I believe it helps and I do it myself. There are plenty of sources that would agree.
I understood the quote I was using . I was using it in response to: "The only "out of range" result was the TgAb. Since there's no other logical explanation and many of my symptoms are classic hypo, plus a family history, why is this such a difficult conclusion to reach? Because my TSH is only 2.23. Why do I have to continue to suffer when there's something that can be tried that may help? "
It wasn't in reference to your post above.
I know only too well that antibodies are used for diagnosis.
I had hypo for years by your standards and worked out regularly. Apparently it's possible. It's not patronizing I believe it helps and I do it myself. There are plenty of sources that would agree.
I understood the quote I was using . I was using it in response to: "The only "out of range" result was the TgAb. Since there's no other logical explanation and many of my symptoms are classic hypo, plus a family history, why is this such a difficult conclusion to reach? Because my TSH is only 2.23. Why do I have to continue to suffer when there's something that can be tried that may help? "
It wasn't in reference to your post above.
I know only too well that antibodies are used for diagnosis.
Many good points.
I am also on a beta blocker for my hyperthyroidism. Yes, I still am hyper months after stopping Levoxyl.
Betas are "generally safe", but they have lousy side-effects and that makes it hard to believe they are safe. Nothing is as safe as needing to take nothing- everything is risk v. benefit. See your cardiologist and have some tests for your peace of mind, you can always reject another med but at least you'll know what you are rejecting it for.
You have been on a roller coaster that is quite extreme and my heart, such as it is, goes out to you. Probably largely because I can relate to what you've been through -though with a less intense experience.
I have been hyper salivating since week 2 at 25 mcg(thay would be late May) and have recently been getting nausea added in. Hyper is many times worse than the TSH of 6 I started with. If I had true hypo way up there and improperly treated that would be horrible, but subclincal versus THIS? No contest. Take me back to 6. I thought I required meds at 6, they told me that. It was only later I found out I didn't and I would not have taken them right away. Clearly my TSH would have dropped on its own by now with a retest. I probably could have avoided them, possibly for years.
Oh and "Yippeeeee" ;-/ I get to see sleep specialist for my 3-4 hours of sleep per night.
Can I make something clear here so you get where I'm coming from ( though I suspect you are keen enough to already know)? I don't truly care whether people get treatment for their subclinical or not.
I merely see this campaign to get everybody onto meds as an unbalanced view . And as irritable as I am now (less than .04) it's just annoying LOL
Levo can make some subclinical people feel better, often does no good (especially if you already have enough of it in your blood for goodness sakes) and it can do "bad". It seems if you state these absolutely reasonable things you come under assault by the individuals who take it emotionally and personally. It's bizarre. It ultimately doesn't matter what I or they think.
I also get tired of the doctor bashing simply because one says "No". That doctor is basing that point of view on experience and information. If they don't like that point of view they can always find another. There are LOTS of them.
If someone who tests at a 4.5 asks an open question of "Can I afford to wait to be re-tested?" the truthful answer is yes, there is no objective evidence it will harm you. Would the more conservative docs be in a conspiracy ( this term has been used recently) to keep people from necessary treatment? No. They just don't buy that it does much good and studies up till now bear out that perspective. Will it likely hurt them if they get subclincal treatment? No. It will often do nothing at all long term, but it CAN cause thyrotoxicosis (or you're stuck on the stuff for life and may not have needed to be) and I am not the first person I have seen here who has had this happen.
By their clinical standards it should NOT have happened but it did.
Any reasonable eye reading what I say can agree or disagree, but the underlying hostility is just unfounded. I was basically told I had no right to tell my own story- that statement was inane.
I just get tired of the foot on the subclincal scale.
I sure hope you feel better soon.
I am also on a beta blocker for my hyperthyroidism. Yes, I still am hyper months after stopping Levoxyl.
Betas are "generally safe", but they have lousy side-effects and that makes it hard to believe they are safe. Nothing is as safe as needing to take nothing- everything is risk v. benefit. See your cardiologist and have some tests for your peace of mind, you can always reject another med but at least you'll know what you are rejecting it for.
You have been on a roller coaster that is quite extreme and my heart, such as it is, goes out to you. Probably largely because I can relate to what you've been through -though with a less intense experience.
I have been hyper salivating since week 2 at 25 mcg(thay would be late May) and have recently been getting nausea added in. Hyper is many times worse than the TSH of 6 I started with. If I had true hypo way up there and improperly treated that would be horrible, but subclincal versus THIS? No contest. Take me back to 6. I thought I required meds at 6, they told me that. It was only later I found out I didn't and I would not have taken them right away. Clearly my TSH would have dropped on its own by now with a retest. I probably could have avoided them, possibly for years.
Oh and "Yippeeeee" ;-/ I get to see sleep specialist for my 3-4 hours of sleep per night.
Can I make something clear here so you get where I'm coming from ( though I suspect you are keen enough to already know)? I don't truly care whether people get treatment for their subclinical or not.
I merely see this campaign to get everybody onto meds as an unbalanced view . And as irritable as I am now (less than .04) it's just annoying LOL
Levo can make some subclinical people feel better, often does no good (especially if you already have enough of it in your blood for goodness sakes) and it can do "bad". It seems if you state these absolutely reasonable things you come under assault by the individuals who take it emotionally and personally. It's bizarre. It ultimately doesn't matter what I or they think.
I also get tired of the doctor bashing simply because one says "No". That doctor is basing that point of view on experience and information. If they don't like that point of view they can always find another. There are LOTS of them.
If someone who tests at a 4.5 asks an open question of "Can I afford to wait to be re-tested?" the truthful answer is yes, there is no objective evidence it will harm you. Would the more conservative docs be in a conspiracy ( this term has been used recently) to keep people from necessary treatment? No. They just don't buy that it does much good and studies up till now bear out that perspective. Will it likely hurt them if they get subclincal treatment? No. It will often do nothing at all long term, but it CAN cause thyrotoxicosis (or you're stuck on the stuff for life and may not have needed to be) and I am not the first person I have seen here who has had this happen.
By their clinical standards it should NOT have happened but it did.
Any reasonable eye reading what I say can agree or disagree, but the underlying hostility is just unfounded. I was basically told I had no right to tell my own story- that statement was inane.
I just get tired of the foot on the subclincal scale.
I sure hope you feel better soon.
Kitcurious is furious because her doctor had his head up his butt and let her go Hyper, and then didn't know how to bring her back.
She, like me, is a complicated piece that some doctor turned into a disaster. She needs to get over it and realize that a person ill with hypothyroid symptoms is not going to benefit from exercise and a better diet. And taking four or seven different scrips to mask a disease that can be treated with one pill is foolish.
I laid out the possible outcomes pretty acurately, and she falls into the third catagory. But she is the exeption, not the norm.
She, like me, is a complicated piece that some doctor turned into a disaster. She needs to get over it and realize that a person ill with hypothyroid symptoms is not going to benefit from exercise and a better diet. And taking four or seven different scrips to mask a disease that can be treated with one pill is foolish.
I laid out the possible outcomes pretty acurately, and she falls into the third catagory. But she is the exeption, not the norm.
I agree with your comments.
I think it's pertinent to rule out possible causes. If so and it's still sounding like thyroid and "blips" showing up in those particular labs- it at least needs be monitored regularly.
If the doctor is "rusty" when it comes to the subject, hopefully he/she will brush up on current information (etc.) or refer you to a doctor more educated.
There are some pretty bad doctor's out there. My last one was one of them. He discounted symptoms (didn't bother looking into things further)...and would eventually discount labs.
How are things going for you? Have you been treated with any meds yet?
I think it's pertinent to rule out possible causes. If so and it's still sounding like thyroid and "blips" showing up in those particular labs- it at least needs be monitored regularly.
If the doctor is "rusty" when it comes to the subject, hopefully he/she will brush up on current information (etc.) or refer you to a doctor more educated.
There are some pretty bad doctor's out there. My last one was one of them. He discounted symptoms (didn't bother looking into things further)...and would eventually discount labs.
How are things going for you? Have you been treated with any meds yet?
"Perhaps a more constuctive approach would be to take action to address the complaints individually."
I think every complaint should be heard and considered but treated individually? I agree with AR on this. No doubt, the Pharmaceutical companies would just love you kit. lol
I look at each complaint individually but also consider the constellation. It could be one problem or a few going on but to think each complaint is independent of one another (and there are many complaints amongst those who suffer thyroid dysfunction)?
As for: http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/380183
I think you are taking this post out of context. If you read the question, you should understand the answers. Antibodies are a consideration in diagnosis.
This person has Hashimotos (why do they look for antibodies?) and is being treated. Knowing that, the answers are in response to her questions (albeit, not all were answered.)
"Exercise can lower blood pressure also does a great deal to increase energy levels..." (so much for C&P function)
Who are you talking to? lol This doesn't strike me as you trying to be helpful, as much as it strikes me as being patronizing. By any chance, were you ever known for being the teacher's pet and prissy in your youth? lol
I think every complaint should be heard and considered but treated individually? I agree with AR on this. No doubt, the Pharmaceutical companies would just love you kit. lol
I look at each complaint individually but also consider the constellation. It could be one problem or a few going on but to think each complaint is independent of one another (and there are many complaints amongst those who suffer thyroid dysfunction)?
As for: http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/380183
I think you are taking this post out of context. If you read the question, you should understand the answers. Antibodies are a consideration in diagnosis.
This person has Hashimotos (why do they look for antibodies?) and is being treated. Knowing that, the answers are in response to her questions (albeit, not all were answered.)
"Exercise can lower blood pressure also does a great deal to increase energy levels..." (so much for C&P function)
Who are you talking to? lol This doesn't strike me as you trying to be helpful, as much as it strikes me as being patronizing. By any chance, were you ever known for being the teacher's pet and prissy in your youth? lol
My point is that some people are hypothyroid with a TSH of less than 10.
There are better things to do, but I am bothered when after I have been diagnosed and Dr. Lupo concurs, that some say I wouldn't have benefited from treatment. There are some people in the same situation that could also benefit from the same.
I gotta get off this forum. It isn't healthy and isn't getting me anywhere. I was just trying to educate and help others. I am in the medical field to dojust that.
Bye,
Kitty
There are better things to do, but I am bothered when after I have been diagnosed and Dr. Lupo concurs, that some say I wouldn't have benefited from treatment. There are some people in the same situation that could also benefit from the same.
I gotta get off this forum. It isn't healthy and isn't getting me anywhere. I was just trying to educate and help others. I am in the medical field to dojust that.
Bye,
Kitty
Well, I guess I wasn't taken correctly in anything I wrote. It seemed obvious I was starting at the antibody/no treatment comment. Watching movie- guess not being clear enough.
What I presumed I said was, in clearer words: Ultimately, the lack of a rise from 2 something or 3 something or 4 something etc will not KEEP a person from getting treatment as doctors can be found who will treat subclincial numbers with symptoms and nothing else. Since symptoms are non specific, without the commensurate rise in TSH to at least AACE abnormal levels? I would call that "TSH doesn't matter to being able to get treatment". Merely persistence.
It is, in fact, a waste of my time to continually pick and choose references that support a point of view.I have cited distinguished, well-known references that say 10 is true hypothyroidism. No need to repeat. It is also something all should try to avoid as it violates forum rules and this is likely why.
I think it has been plainly stated, even by the doctor on this forum, that it is not a requirement to treat prior to 10. If a person has symptoms and a "suspicious" TSH some docs will treat anyway to see if the person feels better, this is also widely known. I understood this "latitude" the first time.
There are more enjoyable activities to engage in.
If you enjoy this, more power to you.
What I presumed I said was, in clearer words: Ultimately, the lack of a rise from 2 something or 3 something or 4 something etc will not KEEP a person from getting treatment as doctors can be found who will treat subclincial numbers with symptoms and nothing else. Since symptoms are non specific, without the commensurate rise in TSH to at least AACE abnormal levels? I would call that "TSH doesn't matter to being able to get treatment". Merely persistence.
It is, in fact, a waste of my time to continually pick and choose references that support a point of view.I have cited distinguished, well-known references that say 10 is true hypothyroidism. No need to repeat. It is also something all should try to avoid as it violates forum rules and this is likely why.
I think it has been plainly stated, even by the doctor on this forum, that it is not a requirement to treat prior to 10. If a person has symptoms and a "suspicious" TSH some docs will treat anyway to see if the person feels better, this is also widely known. I understood this "latitude" the first time.
There are more enjoyable activities to engage in.
If you enjoy this, more power to you.
Unfortunately, addressing the complaints individually can be detrimental to your health.
I'm taking Toprol XL which is controling SOME of my heart problems, but not all of them. I doubt Toprol is good for my body. My heart isn't pumpimg right, so I should probably be on another med for that, but I'm not.
I'm taking six 0.5gm tablets of Alprazolam a day for Depression, which is a total joke. The Alprazolam isn't good for me either.
Despite the anti-anxiety med alprazolam, I have developed pre-ulcers and am taking Ranitidine for my stomach. That doesn't address my digestive problems, and they go unaddressed.
I got a bi-PAP machine for sleep apnia, even though I weigh 130 pounds, and that has helped tremendously. But I find when my levels are near normal I don't have sleep apnia, so I don't need the machine.
My vision, well there isn't a pill for that. If it ever quits changing I'll get a new perscription.
There don't seem to be any pills for my thinning scalp or my skin that looks like I've aged twenty years in two.
I understand both sides of this argument. But you know what? If you look at the pro and the con, you end up in the same place.
If you are subclinical hypo and you start taking a very low dose of Synthroid, there is the chance that it will push you to overt Hypo sooner than you would get there without treatment. Maybe even very quickly.
But if your doctor tests every six weeks you can be stabilized at a med dosage eventually. Probably very soon. And over the course of a year or two you will go to overt, which means your dosage will be a little higher. And you will have sped the process up by a couple of years on getting your health back.
There is also the chance that if you are started on a very low dose you will straighten right out and your symptoms will abate.
There is also the chance that you can be pushed to a Hyperthyroid state. A good doctor could pull you back to balanced or slightly Hypo fairly quickly, but it would be a bad start. This is the biggest risk with early treatment. Not the most likely outcome, but the worst.
Do I think a person with high TPO AB and a TSH of 3.5 needs treatment? If the other T's are in the low normal range and the patient has symptoms, yes.
And I understand some doctors' reluctance to write that perscription.
But treating the symptoms individually until the TSH climbs to 10.0 is poor therapy and hard on all the organs.
I'm taking Toprol XL which is controling SOME of my heart problems, but not all of them. I doubt Toprol is good for my body. My heart isn't pumpimg right, so I should probably be on another med for that, but I'm not.
I'm taking six 0.5gm tablets of Alprazolam a day for Depression, which is a total joke. The Alprazolam isn't good for me either.
Despite the anti-anxiety med alprazolam, I have developed pre-ulcers and am taking Ranitidine for my stomach. That doesn't address my digestive problems, and they go unaddressed.
I got a bi-PAP machine for sleep apnia, even though I weigh 130 pounds, and that has helped tremendously. But I find when my levels are near normal I don't have sleep apnia, so I don't need the machine.
My vision, well there isn't a pill for that. If it ever quits changing I'll get a new perscription.
There don't seem to be any pills for my thinning scalp or my skin that looks like I've aged twenty years in two.
I understand both sides of this argument. But you know what? If you look at the pro and the con, you end up in the same place.
If you are subclinical hypo and you start taking a very low dose of Synthroid, there is the chance that it will push you to overt Hypo sooner than you would get there without treatment. Maybe even very quickly.
But if your doctor tests every six weeks you can be stabilized at a med dosage eventually. Probably very soon. And over the course of a year or two you will go to overt, which means your dosage will be a little higher. And you will have sped the process up by a couple of years on getting your health back.
There is also the chance that if you are started on a very low dose you will straighten right out and your symptoms will abate.
There is also the chance that you can be pushed to a Hyperthyroid state. A good doctor could pull you back to balanced or slightly Hypo fairly quickly, but it would be a bad start. This is the biggest risk with early treatment. Not the most likely outcome, but the worst.
Do I think a person with high TPO AB and a TSH of 3.5 needs treatment? If the other T's are in the low normal range and the patient has symptoms, yes.
And I understand some doctors' reluctance to write that perscription.
But treating the symptoms individually until the TSH climbs to 10.0 is poor therapy and hard on all the organs.
If that's the case, please address that person and not make it look like a blanket statement for everyone here with mild hypothyroidism who has been treated.
I cite the references to show where I get my information, since many times the only info presented is "the TSH over 10" for treatment. I don't feel it is a wate of time to educate.
I cite the references to show where I get my information, since many times the only info presented is "the TSH over 10" for treatment. I don't feel it is a wate of time to educate.
I was addressing the individual who complained that their TSH wasn't yet high enough for treatment and nothing I said was untrue. I am not going to waste time citing articles again.
This is an open board and I was adressing that indivisual. if you wnat a pricat convetrsation you cna easily have one.
They do treat people without objective evidence of hypothyroidism all the time. Just like cardiologists who who give beta blockers for people who have 2 PVCs a day because those 2 PVCs make them so nervous, not because they are in any medical danger from them. Treating symptoms without any material evidence of underlying disease is done all the time.
This is an open board and I was adressing that indivisual. if you wnat a pricat convetrsation you cna easily have one.
They do treat people without objective evidence of hypothyroidism all the time. Just like cardiologists who who give beta blockers for people who have 2 PVCs a day because those 2 PVCs make them so nervous, not because they are in any medical danger from them. Treating symptoms without any material evidence of underlying disease is done all the time.
This post was meant for people to share their thoughts, not to be told that we are treated for hypothyroidism we don't have. Endocrinologists have diagnosed most of us based on lab results and history. I didn't do asking for treatment. The endo TOLD ME I had Hashimoto's and recommended treatment. They ordered the ultrasound, not me.
Once again here is a reference on why these doctors DO treat mild hypothyroidism.
This is from The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 2005;
Indeed, the new NACB guidelines (10) state that "greater than 95% of healthy, euthyroid subjects have a serum TSH concentration between 0.4 and 2.5 mU/liter." They go on to state that "ambulatory patients with a serum TSH >2.5 mU/liter, when confirmed by repeat TSH measurement made after 3–4 wk, may be in the early stages of thyroid failure, especially if TPOAb is detected." Logically it would seem that the exclusion of TPOAb-positive individuals from populations employed to establish a normal TSH reference range constitutes recognition that this TPOAb-positive population has Hashimoto’s disease and is vulnerable to progression to overt hypothyroidism.
Thyroid diseases are known to include many seemingly unrelated symptoms. I guess the testimony of people who are treated and feel better doesn't matter.
Dr. Lupo just replied to JatMunda'a post. ( She also posted here). Here is the exchange:
Hi...recently i went for my Health screeninig test.my thyroid test was,
Thyroid Studies Result Reference
T3 2.35 (0.92 - 2.79 nmol/L)
Free T4 13.72 (11.50 - 22.70 pmol/L)
TSH 3.520 (0.350 - 5.500 mlU/L)
Anti-Tg 38.4 (0.0 - 34.0 lU/mL)
Anti-TPO 499.3 (0.0 - 12.0 lU/mL)
Iam not taking any medicine regarding thyroid,but physically i have a lot of other symptoms.
I would like to know that According to your Experience and knowledge.is there any Thyoid problem with me?
Thanks.
Doctor's Answer
1 day ago by Mark Lupo, M.D.
View Profile
Mark Lupo, M.D.
37 years old
Sarasota - FL
You have hashimoto's thyroiditis with early hypothyroidism. Would see a thyroid specialist or primary doctor to consider a trial of treamtent given the symptoms.
Many of us here have nearly the same exact labs (or higher TSH) and similar history, yet we have just been told that we have been treated for hypoT that we don't have.
The rise in the TSH DOES matter. An individuals TSH normally remains within 0.75. Any deviation from this is likely indicitive of thyroid dysfunction.
This may fall on deaf ears, but I feel compelled to present the other side of the debate.
Thus, although there is little doubt in our minds that a TSH level between 5 and 10 is abnormal, we would go further to state that a TSH level that rises in a given individual from a set point of 1.0 to a value of 3.5 is likely to be abnormally elevated and imply early thyroid failure. The NACB guideline 8 states that "analytical variability together with between-person and within-person estimates of biological variability suggest that the magnitude of difference in ... TSH... values that would be clinically significant when monitoring a patient’s response to therapy... is 0.75 mU/liter" (10). This concept that small differences within an individual’s normal range are significant is suggested by the study by Michalopoulu et al. (33), who treated TPOAb-positive hypercholesterolemic patients with TSH levels between 2 and 4 mU/liter with low dose levothyroxine and demonstrated normalization of TSH levels and improvement in their lipid profile.
JCEM 2005
This many doctors aren't going to put their careers on the line to give people treatment they don't need. Yes, sometimes a trial of medication can help determine if the symptoms are due to thyroid in some cases.
Once again here is a reference on why these doctors DO treat mild hypothyroidism.
This is from The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 2005;
Indeed, the new NACB guidelines (10) state that "greater than 95% of healthy, euthyroid subjects have a serum TSH concentration between 0.4 and 2.5 mU/liter." They go on to state that "ambulatory patients with a serum TSH >2.5 mU/liter, when confirmed by repeat TSH measurement made after 3–4 wk, may be in the early stages of thyroid failure, especially if TPOAb is detected." Logically it would seem that the exclusion of TPOAb-positive individuals from populations employed to establish a normal TSH reference range constitutes recognition that this TPOAb-positive population has Hashimoto’s disease and is vulnerable to progression to overt hypothyroidism.
Thyroid diseases are known to include many seemingly unrelated symptoms. I guess the testimony of people who are treated and feel better doesn't matter.
Dr. Lupo just replied to JatMunda'a post. ( She also posted here). Here is the exchange:
Hi...recently i went for my Health screeninig test.my thyroid test was,
Thyroid Studies Result Reference
T3 2.35 (0.92 - 2.79 nmol/L)
Free T4 13.72 (11.50 - 22.70 pmol/L)
TSH 3.520 (0.350 - 5.500 mlU/L)
Anti-Tg 38.4 (0.0 - 34.0 lU/mL)
Anti-TPO 499.3 (0.0 - 12.0 lU/mL)
Iam not taking any medicine regarding thyroid,but physically i have a lot of other symptoms.
I would like to know that According to your Experience and knowledge.is there any Thyoid problem with me?
Thanks.
Doctor's Answer
1 day ago by Mark Lupo, M.D.
View Profile
Mark Lupo, M.D.
37 years old
Sarasota - FL
You have hashimoto's thyroiditis with early hypothyroidism. Would see a thyroid specialist or primary doctor to consider a trial of treamtent given the symptoms.
Many of us here have nearly the same exact labs (or higher TSH) and similar history, yet we have just been told that we have been treated for hypoT that we don't have.
The rise in the TSH DOES matter. An individuals TSH normally remains within 0.75. Any deviation from this is likely indicitive of thyroid dysfunction.
This may fall on deaf ears, but I feel compelled to present the other side of the debate.
Thus, although there is little doubt in our minds that a TSH level between 5 and 10 is abnormal, we would go further to state that a TSH level that rises in a given individual from a set point of 1.0 to a value of 3.5 is likely to be abnormally elevated and imply early thyroid failure. The NACB guideline 8 states that "analytical variability together with between-person and within-person estimates of biological variability suggest that the magnitude of difference in ... TSH... values that would be clinically significant when monitoring a patient’s response to therapy... is 0.75 mU/liter" (10). This concept that small differences within an individual’s normal range are significant is suggested by the study by Michalopoulu et al. (33), who treated TPOAb-positive hypercholesterolemic patients with TSH levels between 2 and 4 mU/liter with low dose levothyroxine and demonstrated normalization of TSH levels and improvement in their lipid profile.
JCEM 2005
This many doctors aren't going to put their careers on the line to give people treatment they don't need. Yes, sometimes a trial of medication can help determine if the symptoms are due to thyroid in some cases.
The hormone treats TSH, not antibody level http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/380183
The rise itself doesn't matter because there are doctors somehwere who will treat people when they aren't actually hypothyroid anyway.
Perhaps a more constuctive approach would be to take action to address the complaints individually.
Exercise also does a great deal to increase energy levels, decrease anxiety/depression and control weight.
The rise itself doesn't matter because there are doctors somehwere who will treat people when they aren't actually hypothyroid anyway.
Perhaps a more constuctive approach would be to take action to address the complaints individually.
Exercise also does a great deal to increase energy levels, decrease anxiety/depression and control weight.
I said here many times, if you feel bad, you need to do something. It is your body, it is you have irregular heart beat, or tired all day, or gained 30 pounds in 3 months. if they don't help you, find some one else. I fired 3 doctors in 5 years to find a good one I like. There are many reasons that different doctors act differently. you will never know what was the reason behind them, but for you, you just have to find one who is willing to spend the time and work with/treat you...
You bring up some good points. It does only seem in retrospect that someone w/ symptoms and a TSH in range, who then finally goes out, would then be told that they probably had the thyroid problem for a while. (Run on sentence, I think- sorry.)
My TSH was always in the upper end of normal with seemingly unrelated symptoms- dizziness, tires, twitching, weakness. My endo said after reviewing my history of alopecia, dizziness, etc, that I have probably been hypo since high school. i am now 40! My gut told me it could be that. Remenber, I work in the lab and see the results of bloodwork everyday. My numbers at the high end of the range stood out like a sore thumb from the levels of less than 1 up to about 2.
Definately some things to ponder.
Kitty
My TSH was always in the upper end of normal with seemingly unrelated symptoms- dizziness, tires, twitching, weakness. My endo said after reviewing my history of alopecia, dizziness, etc, that I have probably been hypo since high school. i am now 40! My gut told me it could be that. Remenber, I work in the lab and see the results of bloodwork everyday. My numbers at the high end of the range stood out like a sore thumb from the levels of less than 1 up to about 2.
Definately some things to ponder.
Kitty
Ahh, interesting question. I know that in lower amounts thyroid antibodies can be present in other AID's besides Hashi's/Graves or in normal, healthy people - however, I've also read that the higher the antibody count the more likely you are to have thyroid disease.
You know, I didn't seek medical care because I wanted to have Hashi's. I went to the doc with a multitude of symptoms I could no longer ignore as they were affecting the quality of my everyday life. I had no preconceived idea of what was wrong - that was up to the doc to find out, right? The only "abnormal" test result was a TgAb that was 50X above the reference range. I've been tested for lupus, Lyme, celiac, parasites, adrenals, many things. The only "out of range" result was the TgAb. Since there's no other logical explanation and many of my symptoms are classic hypo, plus a family history, why is this such a difficult conclusion to reach? Because my TSH is only 2.23. Why do I have to continue to suffer when there's something that can be tried that may help?
It makes sense that when somebody is asymptomatic that a "wait and see" scenario might be in order. But when you have symptoms, + antibodies, out of whack FTs but only mildly elevated TSH it's a disservice to the patient to make them continue to suffer while you sit and wait for the TSH to reach the magic number.
Sorry to ramble, I'm so sick and tired of being sick and tired! As to your last comment, if one is indeed seeing a doc who writes you off because the TSH isn't high enough, I guarantee when it does go out of range he/she will cry coincidence. Why? Because to do otherwise would mean they have to admit they were wrong in their thinking oh so long ago when you were begging for some relief.
I'm so glad there are docs out there who will treat the whole body and not just one lab, there's hope!
You know, I didn't seek medical care because I wanted to have Hashi's. I went to the doc with a multitude of symptoms I could no longer ignore as they were affecting the quality of my everyday life. I had no preconceived idea of what was wrong - that was up to the doc to find out, right? The only "abnormal" test result was a TgAb that was 50X above the reference range. I've been tested for lupus, Lyme, celiac, parasites, adrenals, many things. The only "out of range" result was the TgAb. Since there's no other logical explanation and many of my symptoms are classic hypo, plus a family history, why is this such a difficult conclusion to reach? Because my TSH is only 2.23. Why do I have to continue to suffer when there's something that can be tried that may help?
It makes sense that when somebody is asymptomatic that a "wait and see" scenario might be in order. But when you have symptoms, + antibodies, out of whack FTs but only mildly elevated TSH it's a disservice to the patient to make them continue to suffer while you sit and wait for the TSH to reach the magic number.
Sorry to ramble, I'm so sick and tired of being sick and tired! As to your last comment, if one is indeed seeing a doc who writes you off because the TSH isn't high enough, I guarantee when it does go out of range he/she will cry coincidence. Why? Because to do otherwise would mean they have to admit they were wrong in their thinking oh so long ago when you were begging for some relief.
I'm so glad there are docs out there who will treat the whole body and not just one lab, there's hope!
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