IS CHOLESTEROL THE REAL ENEMY?

[rbrwn310]

I have found out that cholesterol is really not the enemy. The real enemy is hydrogenated oils and high fructose corn syrup.The drug industry advertises cholesterol lowering drugs on TV all the time with a disclaimer that the drug will not cure or prevent heart disease. Obviously the drug industry is aware that cholesterol is really not the culprit but continues to market useless drugs and to scare the public into thinking they should target cholesterol. The drugs also affect liver function which is where the source of cholesterol  regulation takes place in the body further overburdening the already overworked liver with more toxic chemicals from the drugs. Why does the medical industry zero in on cholesterol when other culprits are the problem. Why is heart disease still the biggest killer after all these years and all this research.? Why does the medical industry still harp on cholesterol as the cause of heart disease?


This discussion is related to High Choleserol/low triglycerides.

[ed34]

What worries me is that cholesterol is needed to keep up alive. It is used to make new cells, repair damaged cells. It is used abundantly in the brain because fats are used to seal permanent connection between neuron cells. It is used to make certain hormones and certain vitamins. I cannot find one single place that states how much cholesterol is required to keep the body functioning properly. In the UK, recommended cholesterol levels for heart disease victims has been 'raised' to a higher level. Why on earth would they do this if cholesterol is the problem. Maybe they have realised that the body requires more cholesterol than believed to stay healthy.
My HDL wouldn't raise to the level required for many months and my cardiologist added a  new medication to my regime which increased it. Atorvastatin 40mg daily seemed to lower LDL but hardly touched triglycerides or HDL. The Liver produces around 65-70% of the fats used in cholesterol lipids, the rest is from consumed foods. Ezetimibe 10mg daily was added which acts like a turbo booster for Atorvastatin. It works by limiting the amount of fats the body can absorb from foods. My LDL dropped another small amount but my triglycerides really shot down. Strangely, my HDL boosted to the recommended level. Don't ask me how this combination affects HDL, it just does.

[oldie]

you say Oct 19 your cholesterol couldn't be better with medications...WHAT medication? Do you take s med that increases HDL? Mine has dropped from 53 to 24 this year despite  meds prescribed by cardios for my test-suggested CAD (Beta blocker, omega-3+B vits) no statins, no niacin. I have gone the meds-excercise-diet route , by the way, not meds+stents, or meds+bypass. Six weeks now, with recurring same old knock-down symptoms. But alive

[ed34]

You remind me of extemist religious sects who take a small snippet and put it all out of context. Anyway, nice to see you for your weekly visit and thanks for a great post that has helped lots of people again. Keep up the usual good work.

[Max_123]

To be helpful as YOU claim you are, you should retract your rhetoric regarding healthy diet and exercise to be no benefit for heart patients...people like my father will use any excuse not to change to a more healthy protocol, and possibly others as well.  THAT IS NOT HELPING to make a diliberate effort to mislead readers with information (true, who knows!) by an example of yourself having CAD even though you have had a healthy diet and hard work daily for enough exercise.  You pretend indignation when accurssed of lying.

Probably you don't know, lying is to create a false or misleading impression by an inaccurate statement(s),and anyone who submits information as truth (your proclamation of diet and work) without knowing for certain whether or not it (proclamation effects) is true is "liar". And an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed as true by the writer of subject material does nevertheless create a false and misleading impression...and it a fabrication, lie, prevarication, etc.  And that speaks of your proclaimed help!

Your help as an example is equal to the kind of help a person who does not know the direction but will still give an asking tourist a direction anyway, and technically that would be a lie according to philosophers Kant, Nietzche, et al. Stop lying as your nose may grow across the pond into New York.  I'm a member for information on this forum, and resent the exposture of misleading information you have given to readers who are seeking good relevant information not misleading information.

[ed34]

YAWN, as usual a blah blah blah post which is of no use whatsoever to anyone. Well done again. I keep looking for your posts that actually give advice and yet I can't seem to find any. All I find are silly argument tactics. Still, rather than sit back believe Im mr perfect and trying to find faults in people who bother to find time to help others, I will simply continue with what I am doing. As for other forums, I belong to quite a few and have no problems. Like I said, there's usually ONE who has to be the spoiled apple but fortunately they are usually removed quickly by admin staff. Anyway you've made your points and I look forward to reading your future posts which actually deal with helping people (the purpose of this forum).

[Max_123]

Your asides are of little consequences and are meaningless in the scheme of the subject discussed.  No oplogy is needed, and I am not going to list your inconsistencies and go there for proof.  I will state I don't believe you, others can come to their own conclusions.

But go to a more important issue:  You state the mission of the forum is to give valuable advice,...so you have stated..."giving valuable advice, opinions, experiences to people who are asking, which is why I thought the forum existed."  So we will go there: My posted comments deal with the truth (usually) doctors give their patients, and for good doctor/patient relationships there needs to be trust!....the medical community agrees that aorobic exercise is beneficial for heart patients and as well as a healthy diet, and you, Ed, if one is to believe you, you have worked hard and you have had a healthy diet, and because you have CAD one should not believe the doctor's advice because if it were true as the doctors claim you should of all people not have gotten CAD. You stated on other threads you do not believe in diet and exercise as being beneficial! What you have done is plant a seed of distrust with an individual for his/her doctor or medical research (some people need very little persuasion to stay with unhealthy diet,continued smoking, exercise,drinking etc.will accept any excuse) You are out of line to post that untruthful concept and possibly burden a person and family.  That is what is important, not your inability to see the truth (who cares?), you should not mislead a reader as you often do.  You should retract your personal experience lest you unnecessarily burden an individual and family that may take you seriously. I can virtually guarantee someone will disregard their doctor's advice because that is the easy way out and the most pleasant in the short run.

Regarding your pacemaker response.  By stating a newly installed pacemaker maybe a problem may cause unnecessary stress especially when the patient's symptoms, treatment, and history doesn't logically lead to that conclusion.  It is only a mistake in judgment, but so are many of your other posts.

I have no idea about your past experience on forums, but you do indicate by your snide remark you have had problems in the past with forums!  I think I know the reason. You retract your misleading comments, and I will make the appropriate response to you.

[ed34]

>>>>>>What is considered beneficial for some heart patients is aorobic exercise for less than an hour 3 times a week. I believe the controlled time is a requirement for beneficial results?!. And whether you worked with electronics for a defibrillator manufacturer or the building trade is irrelevant for the respective threads.  You don't have to answer any personal questions, but I'm somewhat confused are you retired or disabled? >>>

You're right I dont have to answer, the last thing I need is an agony aunt.
There's always one on every forum isnt there, looks like Ive found the one in this forum.

[ed34]

"fibbing and exaggeration will catch up to you as it appears now to have happened"

I do not lie and I demand an apology. Since I began posting on here I have not yet seen one constructive post from yourself towards any questions. All I have seen is personal attacks on people. This is not what the forum is about and it certainly doesn't need an amateur psycho analyst believing he can work out a persons character and then smudge it, or attempt to. You say that background is irrelevant but thats utter rubbish. Background is experience and if someone experiences something then they have more understanding with many aspects than someone who hasn't. The argument was that electronic components break down and develop faults but you seem adament that this doesnt happen because you are creating an argument out of it. I tried to explain that I have seen this first hand but still you disbelieve it. Perhaps if components didn't break down the crew of Apollo 13 would have landed on the moon. It happens so you just need to deal with it.

[Max_123]

ed34, 13 hours ago
QUOTE:"Now we have someone who fancies themselves as internet detective rather than giving valuable advice, opinions, experiences to people who are asking, which is why I thought the forum existed."
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Stick to the subjects and don't characterize my motives to detract from the issues that have been raised.  I work everyday, and don't have luxury of idle time that you apparently have and without asking about the inconstistencies you present is not detective work...its recognizing fabrications at most and/or irrelevancy.  You consider yourself giving valuable advice on the two subject threads?  Others differ with you and have more persuasive arguments in my opinion...you bring in your background as a last resort to be persuasive, but that tactic is irrelevant as I have said...even if one believes your work history which may be true or not.

If you stop thinking of something smart to say, please address the issue as asked:  Isn't it the controlled time and degree of aorobic exercise done that is the most beneficial, not just ordinary busy work as you state you do or have done!

Regarding the pacemaker thread:  You had stated (no longer on the thread) that you have electronic experience.  Almost everyone now days has the computer software education you have indicated you have had.  But the issue as I read is not related to writing code software as you claim you have done.  The pacemaker as I understand is wired for a fixed rate pulse and doesn't require any programming.  The demand type pacemaker notwithstanding...so your code writing experience is not going to help you...who are you trying to impress, fibbing and exaggeration will catch up to you as it appears now to have happened .  That sir is what it is about, don't you agree a person can come to the conclusion that you have been a little disingenuous.  Thank you.  

[ed34]

Yes I have heard that the smaller LDL lipids seem to be more the culprit and your addition to the analogy is perfect.

[Ken_PA]

"Now dig a narrow trench across the middle of the hill to represent damage in the artery
wall. Now tip a large bucket of golf balls down the hill and most of the golf balls will be trapped in the trench. This represents the cholesterol becoming trapped in a damaged artery "

greetings, Ed. I kind of like that analogy. Suppose we extend it by changing to both golf and tennis balls, and saying that the trench is too narrow for the tennis balls. The tennis balls would go past. They correspond to large LDL particles, which some say come from eating meat/fat. The small LDL comes from eating carbs.

That's a theory, anyway.

[ed34]

>>>On another post to establish credibility on a thread about pacemakers you stated you had experience in the electronic's field until 2000 and the company you were with was absorbed by hp.  That is inconsistant with the building trade work.. <<<

Now we have someone who fancies themselves as internet detective rather than giving valuable advice, opinions, experiences to people who are asking, which is why I thought the forum existed.
All I will say is that you are wrong and you should think at least two dimensional. I have friends who have four jobs, we are not limited to one. I left school with very good qualifications in computer programming and took up a contract to write applications for Kontron. It was only for a couple of hours a day and most of the software was written at home over weekends. For the money I was paid, I couldn't turn the contract down.
The building trade was in a partnership with my brother. I would drive from Kontron to the location of our current job, get changed and dig in. So, 8.30am - 10.30am was with Kontron and 11am to 5pm was in the building trade.
What will you dig up about me on the internet next? that I had a dislocated toe at the age of 20 perhaps?

[erijon]

Just beacuse you think it doesn't mean you're right.............. I don't know about the UK, but here everyone can have an opinion.

[rbrwn310]

http://healthforu.info/health/diethealth/Saturated-Fat-Food-Lies.php

[Max_123]

                                  by ed34, Oct 18, 2009 04:17AM
"If exercise was the cure, then I should never have got atherosclerosis. I had always been very active, probably on the border of hyperactive. Working in the building trade, I
would get home, eat a healthy meal, then go back out for martial arts training"

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>>>On another post to establish credibility on a thread about pacemakers you stated you had experience in the electronic's field until 2000 and the company you were with was absorbed by hp.  That is inconsistant with the building trade work..
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                                  by ed34, Oct 18, 2009 04:17AM
Exercising didn't stop my disease developing, but I believe it probably helped me to develop collaterals to save my life.
I ate healthily, lots of fruit/veg and oily fish. All a waste of time in my case.
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>>>>>>What is considered beneficial for some heart patients is aorobic exercise for less than an hour 3 times a week. I believe the controlled time is a requirement for beneficial results?!. And whether you worked with electronics for a defibrillator manufacturer or the building trade is irrelevant for the respective threads.  You don't have to answer any personal questions, but I'm somewhat confused are you retired or disabled?

[ed34]

Very good points. However, there will always be people that you can try and convince that the sky is blue but they will always argue that its green. Common sense is something that you are either born with, or you are not.

[ed34]

The problem is, HDL can trigger LDL to become 'null' and return to the Liver but it is not able to when trapped in fissures in a damaged artery lining. This is why our immune system sends in the big guys to destroy them. However white cells cannot dissolve fat and turn into foam cells, the start of the athero process.
I really dont understand why people can't see why the levels of cholesterol make no difference. Let me put it in an easy to visualise manner,,,,,

imagine a grass hill. The grass is neatly trimmed, like the green on a golf course. Now stand on the top of the hill and tip out a small bucket of golf balls. You will see them roll down the hill and this represents cholesterol flowing through a healthy artery.
Now dig a narrow trench across the middle of the hill to represent damage in the artery
wall. Now tip a large bucket of golf balls down the hill and most of the golf balls will be trapped in the trench. This represents the cholesterol becoming trapped in a damaged artery and someone with high cholesterol. Now do the same thing but with a small bucket of golf balls. Strangley enough, the golf balls fall into the trench in the same way.
So, the obvious conclusion from this is that the level of cholesterol makes no difference, EXCEPT the disease will progress more slowly. The only way to STOP the disease obviously is to have NO cholesterol, but this would KILL us.

[erijon]

Ed,

I read the paper you pointed out, interesting read, it was actually a review of the "Get with the Guidelines" study that was conducted. The actual conclusions are below;

Conclusions
In a large cohort of patients hospitalized with CAD,
almost half have admission LDL <100 mg/dL, whereas less
than a quarter have LDL N130 mg/dL. The LDL levels
<70 mg/dL are observed in only 17.6% of patients.
Admission HDL levels are <40 mg/dL in 54.6% of patients
hospitalized with CAD, whereas <10% of patients have
admission HDL levels ≥60 mg/dL. Ideal lipid levels (LDL
<70 mg/dL with HDL ≥60 mg/dL) are seen in only 1.4% of
patients hospitalized with CAD. There were reductions in
admission LDL and HDL levels over time. These findings
provide insights into the lipid levels encountered in
recent clinical practice for patients hospitalized with
CAD.

These findings may provide further support for
recent guideline revisions with even lower LDL goals.
They also may suggest a clinical need for developing
effective treatments to raise antiatherogenic HDL."


The end result was not to discount the link between CAD and levels of cholesterol, but whether or not the guidleines need to be revied and lowered. The study also pointed out that over 54% had HDL levels below the present guidelines and recommended that new protocol be put in place to increase levels of HDL.

I have some mixed feelings on this. As I read the reviews of this study, there was a common criticism which was that the control group only inlcuded those that were in the hospital. No consideration was made for the general public that has cholesterol levels at the recommended guidelines that do not have CAD. Also, if you look at those that were consider in the control group;

"Cardiovascular risk factors and comor-
bidities were frequently present with 54.2% having
hypertension, 26.2% having diabetes, and 30.4% being
smokers. Prior MI was noted in 16.5% of patients. For
this population, 45.6% had documented prior CHD,
other atherosclerotic vascular disease, or diabetes, and
54.4% did not."

Meaning that almost half the participants were already pre-disposed initial or further cardiac events not necessarily contributed to their cholesterol level. Most of the reviews I read felt these should be eliminated from the results.

In any case, intersting read.

[erijon]

Money, what are you talking about? Please don't make personal attacks on this board. I don't make a dime off of statins. If you and Ed want to avoid them, please do, you don't need me to agree with you.

Just the same question I have asked before, if a person with a low cholesterol level decided to give up and let their TC get elevated to say 300 mg, would they be at greater risk? OF COURSE THEY WOULD. Whether it's due to a link between cholesterol and CAD or because of injured arteries as you state, in either case they would increase their risk. Statins have helped many of us who did change their diet and exercise routine and lost considerable weight and moved to a healthier lifestyle but still struggled with high cholesterol levels, why can't you just accept that and give it a rest. You don't want to take them, good for you I hope whatever you do works for you.

[rbrwn310]

According to a Medical Doctor this is why statins are dangerous and why this is all a big scam. According to doctor Ron Rosedale statins actually increase heart disease.
"Low cholesterol levels have been shown to worsen patients with congestive heart failure, a life threatning condition where the heart becomes too weak to effectively pump blood. Statin drugs have have been shown to also cause nerve damage and to greatly impair memory. One reason that statin drugs have these serious side effects is thatv they work by inhibiting a vital enzyme that manufactures cholesterol in the liver. However, the same enzyme is used to manufacture coenzyme q10, which is an biochemical needed to transfer energy from food to the cells to stay alive and healthy.

Statin drugs are known to inhibit our very important production of coq10. Importantly while many cardiologists insist that lowering cholesterol; is correlated with a reduction of heart attacks; few can say that there is a reduction in the risk of mortality. In other words it has never never been shown conclusively that lowering cholesterol saves lives. In fact several large studies have shown that lowering cholesterol into the range currently recommended is correlated with an increased risk of dying especially of cancer."

Ron Rosedale MD

Not my words but of a well respected medical doctor not afraid to speak out against the crimes being committed by the drug industry and the food industry.

[rbrwn310]

At times LDL cholesterol can begin to stick to arteries that have been damaged by free radicals found in common grocery store vegetable oils and food. When one speaks of cholesterol one needs to speak of LDL or HDL. The type that may stick to damaged artery walls is the LDL and the HDL will remove that cholesterol. If one has an HDL reading of over 50 or higher  then the body is safer from any plaque accumulation due to internal artery damage from hydrogenated vegetable oils, cigarettes, alcohol, or other nasty items many put into their one and only body.

[ed34]

Can you imagine the absolute mess it would make when everyone realises statins are a waste of time. People who claim statins regress their disease are not realising its just due to their change in diet. When people really start to look at the evidence, lawsuits will be flying everywhere. It makes me sweat just to think of the money that will be involved.

[rbrwn310]

In 1962 autopsy studies by Polish researchers found that 2/3  of those who died from confirmed cad, had serum cholesterol in the normal to low ranges They could find no correlation between  blood cholesterol  content  and the cholesterol  content of arterial plaque.(Marek et al 1962;American Heart Journal). Subsequent autopsy studies from the USA and Gautemala confirmed those findings.
Heart disease is still the biggest killer of Americans despite the wide spread use of high dollar statin drugs. Oh but I forgot there are some here that think heart disease has been cured by statins and that I am all wet. As stated before the real enemy is still on the shelf of your grocery store. If one insists on taking statins a product in the health food store will do the same job for a heck of a lot less money but its still not the answer.

[erijon]

"There are controlled tests done by medical labs indicating that deaths occur more with those with lower cholesterol than with higher cholesterol indicating this cholesterol scare is a myth and a big scam to make drug companies bottom lines even bigger. I have the results that were posted in medical journals for those that think I do not know what I am talking about. Those journals go to your doctors that stack them in a corner and never read them"

Please back this up, the only data you sent me yesterday was an old study of 800 individuals looking at the link between high cholesterol and heart disease IN PEOPLE OVER 70. Your own study states that this is not a proper control group and they claim not to make any conclusions in individuals under 70 years of age.

Ed has provided some compelling reading which I will look at this evening, I would include anything you have as well. Just don't use the foul language as you have in your multiple messages to me yesterday. I don't know why my opinion is so important to you, but please don't be so rude and abusive.