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Response to Kids who don't care
I completely disagree with the doctor's response to the previous question. I have two children. One is 13 and one is 5. I have set the same rules, boundaries and limits for both kids and always sought to raise them the same. My 13 year old has a healthy fear of authority and while he (like any other kid) tests his boundaries, he knows what lines not to cross. He has always been respectful to adults, etc. My daughter on the other hand is very similar to the kids mentioned above that "just don't care". She has no fear of authority at school whatsoever. She doesn't listen to her teachers, doesn't obey her teachers and insists on doing whatever she wants whenever she wants. We have tried to manage her school behavior at home with no response. We have tried punishment for bad behavior at school such as taking away toys and priveleges, spanking and everything else we can think of and nothing works. Like the previous family mentioned, she just doesn't care. It doesn't matter to her that she has no toys or priveleges and has to sit by herself every day at home as punishment. It doesn't matter that she gets in trouble and has free time taken away at school. She just doesn't care. Nothing motivates her to change her behavior. I have a hard time believing this is our fault as parents when both kids have been disciplined the same way and one child is an angel and the second is a disciplinary nightmare.
This discussion is related to How to discipline kids who "don't care"..
This discussion is related to How to discipline kids who "don't care"..
COMMUNITY LEADER
The thing is - is that at this age - to punish him hours afterwards he did something at school is never going to work. The mental connection is just not there (as you have found out). To change behavior, you have to immediately, and consistently deal with that behavior. Neither of those things can be accomplished at home. The school needs to deal with his behavior. But, both the school and you need to figure out what is triggering his behavior. If he consistently does not listen, then you look at things like ADHD. However, if he is fine for weeks and then goes off - then something is causing that.
Which makes punishing at home even less likely to work.
He needs to come home, feel loved and talk about what is going on.
And, how do you know he does not care? Kids of his age cannot express emotions. Do you expect him to say, "thanks mommy" for something he may not even be able to remember what he did?
What you can do is to work on habits, skills, at home that he will transfer over to at school. For example, there are books aimed at this age group which are meant to be read aloud to them (many times) and practiced. A good example is "Hands are not for hitting" from the Best Behavior Series and there are many more listed on the following link. http://www.amazon.com/Hands-Hitting-Ages-Best-Behavior/dp/1575420775
And, by the way, this week was bad for him at school. Did any thing happen at home? Did he stay up real late one night? Sleep is a huge factor for kids of this age. And if he is hitting other kids, what are they doing? Is he being bullied or made fun of? Why all of a sudden is this happening.
If you want to share more specific information, I'll see if I can be more specific.
Which makes punishing at home even less likely to work.
He needs to come home, feel loved and talk about what is going on.
And, how do you know he does not care? Kids of his age cannot express emotions. Do you expect him to say, "thanks mommy" for something he may not even be able to remember what he did?
What you can do is to work on habits, skills, at home that he will transfer over to at school. For example, there are books aimed at this age group which are meant to be read aloud to them (many times) and practiced. A good example is "Hands are not for hitting" from the Best Behavior Series and there are many more listed on the following link. http://www.amazon.com/Hands-Hitting-Ages-Best-Behavior/dp/1575420775
And, by the way, this week was bad for him at school. Did any thing happen at home? Did he stay up real late one night? Sleep is a huge factor for kids of this age. And if he is hitting other kids, what are they doing? Is he being bullied or made fun of? Why all of a sudden is this happening.
If you want to share more specific information, I'll see if I can be more specific.
Your description of your son is so spot on to my 6 year old, it's crazy. He can go for weeks doing great, but this week for example has been 3 days of not listening at school after multiple warnings and even hitting other kids. We are consistent and calm. Send him to his room for the night (which I feel awful doing - like he probably thinks we don't want him around) but nothing works. We've tried taking away toys, tv, outside play time, etc. He just DOES NOT CARE. Any tips? I don't want him to live his life banished to his room for something that maybe he doesn't understand, but I don't want him to think his behavior is okay either.
I agree completely with you. I had the exact same problem with my son (now 35) and we have the same problem with his son (now 13). A little history here,,, my son was the older child of 2 boys. He was a very intelligent infant and new his letters and alphabet before he was 2. Reading books by 3. I never yell or lose my temper at bad behavior, just remain calm and showed no anger, keyword being showed. I started noticing his Jeckyll/Hyde personalities about the time he was able to walk. He would wake up and be really cranky, nothing would please him, he couldn't communicate, wanted everything, wanted nothing. My response was to send him back to bed telling him "when you wake up/feel better, come back out and we'll have breakfast." He'd stomp his feet all the way back to his room mumbling, yelling, screaming, YES, at 2! Here is the creepy part. Less than 5 minutes later, he would bounce back into the kitchen with a huge smile on his face, run over and hug me as if NOTHING EVEN HAPPENED 5 minutes ago! What happened? As he got older, this behaviour continued, but was not limited to mornings, not every day. Sometimes it could be a week or two. Same response, send to room to calm down, 5 min later... different kid. One day you would tell him to do his homework and he would defiantly say "NO, I DON'T WANT TO!" Here we go again with creepy. Send him to his room telling him I'm not going to argue about it. He stomps his feet, mutters under his breath, kicks his door, punches his wall and yells he's too stupid to go to school, he shouldn't have a bicycle, maybe he shouldn't get to eat dinner... I don't respond other than telling him he's silly for think that way. Then bam! 15/20 minutes later he brings out his homework and sets it on the table completely done acting like the last 30 minutes never happened at all!
He was also a nightmare to discipline. As with your grandchildren there was NOT A THING you could do to punish him and thank God he wasn't vicious or mean. Tell him he couldnt play with his toy if he didn't pick up his room, he'd bring them to you in a box and tell you he doesn't want them anyway. Tell him he can't watch his favorite tv show, he doesn't care. Offer him money, nope. He doesn't really want anything. If he gets something he likes, ok, if he don't get what he wants, that's ok too. No big deal. We thought he might have had some kind of attachment disorder so we took him to counseling @ 13 years old. He laughed when he came out saying "She thinks she's so smart. She couldn't get me to say anything." Took him every week for 2 months. Waste of money. She never did get him to talk. He is obstinate. If he doesn't want to do something, he won't and you can't make him. He is now 35 and has a good job and "gets along" with people and does most of what he has too, but,,,, He had/has a really soft heart, but then doesn't understand why he made you cry. (I now lovingly call him Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory because he just doesn't understand basic human emotions, is very blunt with no tact. Tells you exactly what he thinks, good or bad.) He graduated from college last year with a straight 4.0 grade average and perfect attendance. Received accommodations and letters from the Dean of the college every semmester! Who would have thought? I'm very proud of him.
The only good thing about this attitude was I didn't have to worry about peer pressure to drink, do drugs, smoke, etc., cause he could have cared less if anyone liked him, called him names, beat him up or whatever. If he thought it was wrong or he didn't want to do it, he wouldn't. My youngest son was the exact opposite.
He has a son who is now 13. Every since my grandson was little, it was like deja vu. Didn't help any that he is almost an exact physical clone of his dad, now he acts just like his dad when he was younger. In frustration trying to get my grandson to do his homework I asked my son, "Since you were like that when you were younger, what would have worked with you for motivation and discipline?" His response floored me. "Mom, there is nothing you could have done any different than you did. I am very strong willed and all you could do was give me rules and the consistancy to know what was expected. You never lost your temper and screamed back at me or hit me. Don't know how you managed that, but whether you realize it or not, the values and things you thought I was ignoring and not listening to did make an impact on me. I knew I could always count on you to be there for me and never judged me like others did. Just be there for AJ like you were for me and it will turn out ok. I promise."
Hang in there, I'm going through the second generation of this behaviour. AJ is a very loving but over-emotional young man. His feelings get hurt very easily, he crys like the world is ending when something doesn't go right. Not when he doesn't get what he wants, but when a toy gets broken, his Ipad battery goes dead because he forgot to plug it in, his favorite pajamas are still in the laundry... the world has ended and he wishes he could just die. Then 5 minutes later, he has not got a clue what all the hub bub was all about. Go figure... I love him and my son and will just have to ride the roller coaster.
I came here looking for answers to disciplining/motivating my grandson, but ended up understanding that my experience with his father growing up was a big portion of the answer I was looking for. That love, compassion, rules, consistancy with just sending him to his room to think and calm down, and the ability to keep my frustrations with him to myself as I did with his father will work with AJ.
He was also a nightmare to discipline. As with your grandchildren there was NOT A THING you could do to punish him and thank God he wasn't vicious or mean. Tell him he couldnt play with his toy if he didn't pick up his room, he'd bring them to you in a box and tell you he doesn't want them anyway. Tell him he can't watch his favorite tv show, he doesn't care. Offer him money, nope. He doesn't really want anything. If he gets something he likes, ok, if he don't get what he wants, that's ok too. No big deal. We thought he might have had some kind of attachment disorder so we took him to counseling @ 13 years old. He laughed when he came out saying "She thinks she's so smart. She couldn't get me to say anything." Took him every week for 2 months. Waste of money. She never did get him to talk. He is obstinate. If he doesn't want to do something, he won't and you can't make him. He is now 35 and has a good job and "gets along" with people and does most of what he has too, but,,,, He had/has a really soft heart, but then doesn't understand why he made you cry. (I now lovingly call him Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory because he just doesn't understand basic human emotions, is very blunt with no tact. Tells you exactly what he thinks, good or bad.) He graduated from college last year with a straight 4.0 grade average and perfect attendance. Received accommodations and letters from the Dean of the college every semmester! Who would have thought? I'm very proud of him.
The only good thing about this attitude was I didn't have to worry about peer pressure to drink, do drugs, smoke, etc., cause he could have cared less if anyone liked him, called him names, beat him up or whatever. If he thought it was wrong or he didn't want to do it, he wouldn't. My youngest son was the exact opposite.
He has a son who is now 13. Every since my grandson was little, it was like deja vu. Didn't help any that he is almost an exact physical clone of his dad, now he acts just like his dad when he was younger. In frustration trying to get my grandson to do his homework I asked my son, "Since you were like that when you were younger, what would have worked with you for motivation and discipline?" His response floored me. "Mom, there is nothing you could have done any different than you did. I am very strong willed and all you could do was give me rules and the consistancy to know what was expected. You never lost your temper and screamed back at me or hit me. Don't know how you managed that, but whether you realize it or not, the values and things you thought I was ignoring and not listening to did make an impact on me. I knew I could always count on you to be there for me and never judged me like others did. Just be there for AJ like you were for me and it will turn out ok. I promise."
Hang in there, I'm going through the second generation of this behaviour. AJ is a very loving but over-emotional young man. His feelings get hurt very easily, he crys like the world is ending when something doesn't go right. Not when he doesn't get what he wants, but when a toy gets broken, his Ipad battery goes dead because he forgot to plug it in, his favorite pajamas are still in the laundry... the world has ended and he wishes he could just die. Then 5 minutes later, he has not got a clue what all the hub bub was all about. Go figure... I love him and my son and will just have to ride the roller coaster.
I came here looking for answers to disciplining/motivating my grandson, but ended up understanding that my experience with his father growing up was a big portion of the answer I was looking for. That love, compassion, rules, consistancy with just sending him to his room to think and calm down, and the ability to keep my frustrations with him to myself as I did with his father will work with AJ.
And I must say I disagree with you. My children age 5 and 4, both boys that are 15 months apart have learned to respect me as the person who cares for them, not as the person in authority. The difference being I'm not all about punishment but about teaching. I've been pretty successful with both kids. My 5 year old has a developmental delay and the things that work for him and my 4 year old are different. BOTH my kids by 3 and certainly by 4 understood their emotions and I did better with discipline when I tried to understand them. We read books on feelings to give them words, etc. For a child to stop the process and start to think about why they are reacting is the begining of mature communication. You too can learn to communicate with your child in a more posative way. I hope you do. Good luck.
I'm sorry, but as the father of a 3 1/2 year old like the 5 year-old mentioned here, I disagree entirely. Children need to recognize authority and know that there are consequences for going against it. They will have to live their entire life by that principle. We all do. We accept the authority of the law/police, teachers, employers etc. We know that disobeying their authority brings negative consequences. My child does NOT understand when I try to talk to her about "what makes her angry" or "why that was bad". I ask her why she's angry, and she says, "because." Reasoning with a 3 or 4 year old DOES NOT WORK. Anyone who says it does is fooling themselves, and doesn't have children of their own. I sympathize with the original poster here. I have the same problems.
i didn't read the post you are referring to yet, but wanted to chime in. you say "I have a hard time believing this is our fault as parents when both kids have been disciplined the same way and one child is an angel and the second is a disciplinary nightmare."
i am NOT insinuating that it is your fault, especially since I do not know you. However, one mistake that both parents and teachers make is disciplining different children the same way. Your 2 children have very different temperaments, which accounts for the different ways they respond to the same situation and scenarios. you also have to take in to account the fact that you can't expect them to behave the same way because their home life and family situations are different. When your older one was five, he was an only child. your daughter is being raised in an entirely different environment. it may still be loving, nuturing, structured, etc... but the mere make-up of your family structure is different. Does this play in to the picture? I certainly can't determine that from here. I am merely stating this to point out that you cannot compare the 2 children.
one of the greatest challenges to working with children is learning and accepting that there is not one recipe that produces a well-behaved child. we want the same results for all children- healthy, respectful, disciplined, etc... but the same techniques do not work for all children. Children with difficult temperaments are a great challenge. fighting and powerstruggles rarely work. trying to get them to fear authority generally back-fires and results in worse behavior. My best advice to you is to take a parenting class. I was required to take one in my certification process and it gave me so much understanding and insight into why difficult children behave the way they do.
you express that you want your child to have a healthy fear of authority. Fearing authority is not a good way to teach discipline because it does not teach empathy or internal controls. you want your children to do the right thing because they understand that it is the right thing- not because they fear that they will be punished if they don't do it. there is no magic fix to achieve this- this approach to discipline take a long time and a lot of patience. it may be frustrating because you won't see instant results. but i have seen with my own eyes classrooms transformed, the most difficult of children taking responsibility for their actions. it would take me pages to share all i have learned, especially since techniques need to be tailored to each individual child/group. but the basics are
active listening- stop and listen to what she has to say. repeat it back to her. "you are angry because..." this will help her recognize her emotions and the causes.
model problem solving- "you are mad because... what do you think we can do to solve this problem?"
teach empathy- if she hurts someone, don't isolate her by placing her in time-out immediately. Let her see the impacts of her actions. Tell her she has to find a way to help the other person feel better. Ask the victim, "is there anything (child) can do to help you feel better?"
teach responsibility- you spill it, you clean it. you break it, you try to fix it.
as soon as your daughter takes any steps to solve a problem, use specific praise. "We had a problem when you decided to throw that toy. I like how you decided to solve the problem and pick it up and put it away."
by giving a difficult child an opportunity to solve a problem, you are both teaching empathy and problem solving, but you are also empowering them and giving them tools that will help them through life. and with time she may begin to listen not because she fears consequences but instead because she wants to.
i am NOT insinuating that it is your fault, especially since I do not know you. However, one mistake that both parents and teachers make is disciplining different children the same way. Your 2 children have very different temperaments, which accounts for the different ways they respond to the same situation and scenarios. you also have to take in to account the fact that you can't expect them to behave the same way because their home life and family situations are different. When your older one was five, he was an only child. your daughter is being raised in an entirely different environment. it may still be loving, nuturing, structured, etc... but the mere make-up of your family structure is different. Does this play in to the picture? I certainly can't determine that from here. I am merely stating this to point out that you cannot compare the 2 children.
one of the greatest challenges to working with children is learning and accepting that there is not one recipe that produces a well-behaved child. we want the same results for all children- healthy, respectful, disciplined, etc... but the same techniques do not work for all children. Children with difficult temperaments are a great challenge. fighting and powerstruggles rarely work. trying to get them to fear authority generally back-fires and results in worse behavior. My best advice to you is to take a parenting class. I was required to take one in my certification process and it gave me so much understanding and insight into why difficult children behave the way they do.
you express that you want your child to have a healthy fear of authority. Fearing authority is not a good way to teach discipline because it does not teach empathy or internal controls. you want your children to do the right thing because they understand that it is the right thing- not because they fear that they will be punished if they don't do it. there is no magic fix to achieve this- this approach to discipline take a long time and a lot of patience. it may be frustrating because you won't see instant results. but i have seen with my own eyes classrooms transformed, the most difficult of children taking responsibility for their actions. it would take me pages to share all i have learned, especially since techniques need to be tailored to each individual child/group. but the basics are
active listening- stop and listen to what she has to say. repeat it back to her. "you are angry because..." this will help her recognize her emotions and the causes.
model problem solving- "you are mad because... what do you think we can do to solve this problem?"
teach empathy- if she hurts someone, don't isolate her by placing her in time-out immediately. Let her see the impacts of her actions. Tell her she has to find a way to help the other person feel better. Ask the victim, "is there anything (child) can do to help you feel better?"
teach responsibility- you spill it, you clean it. you break it, you try to fix it.
as soon as your daughter takes any steps to solve a problem, use specific praise. "We had a problem when you decided to throw that toy. I like how you decided to solve the problem and pick it up and put it away."
by giving a difficult child an opportunity to solve a problem, you are both teaching empathy and problem solving, but you are also empowering them and giving them tools that will help them through life. and with time she may begin to listen not because she fears consequences but instead because she wants to.
my2monkeys, have your children been raised in a different way? Meaning, did your older child have a father and your 5 year old doesn't have one?
I can't imagine any of my three boys (ages 19, 17, 13) not responding to authority. I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong here with teaching authority - this is something of this generation. Previous generations for 1000 years past didn't have kids who rebuffed any attempts at discipline.
I can't imagine any of my three boys (ages 19, 17, 13) not responding to authority. I'm just trying to figure out what went wrong here with teaching authority - this is something of this generation. Previous generations for 1000 years past didn't have kids who rebuffed any attempts at discipline.
I understand how you feel and agree to a point. Usually when one child is an "angel" and the other is the opposite, their personalities are very different. Your daughter could have "perfect big brother syndrome". (I made it up) She may feel like she can't measure up to her brother. Children will say and act like they don't care, but if the same privilidge or punishment continues until the child realizes you mean business, the behavior may change. Good luck and God bless.
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