Cassandra, "Don't ask, don't tell" is a policy in the US armed forces that allows homosexuals to serve their country as long as they aren't openly gay. I can only imagine how stupid that must sound to someone from another country.
Cassandra, Wow, i should think that what is more important is the soldier's ability to fight or do his duties on the battlefield, not how he spends his private time. Karen, you are right, it sounds totally ridiculous.
It doesnt sound stupid at all....
Just trying to understand, I am not homophobic,,, (my old step mum is gay... but shes now a man,,,, so I duno if she classes as gay) but meh! :).... but if you're gay and proud you cant serve in the armed serivces?
Thats not fair... being gay is a way of life... its better to be proud of who you are than to not be... and being proud of yourself and being proud that you can fight for your country as well... I would be ever so happy!!
That's what the whole thing is about. You can be openly gay in the US, and there are states that allow gay marriage, but in the military you aren't currently allowed to be openly gay. You CAN be be gay and in the military, you just can't let anyone know basically...
This is what I wrote on my friend's facebook, and how I feel about it.
Honestly I don't care what religion you are, what your sexual preference is, where you came from...if you can hold a gun and shoot it, and you're on MY side then by all means, come join the fight...BUT unfortunately people are a-holes, I personally think if your friend asks you, hey are you...gay? and you say yes, then whatever, no big deal...as long as you understand I'm not and don't try to hit on me, I could care less. Just the same as a straight person trying to get with a guy/girl...if they aren't interested, back off. I can't really say one way or another, because in a way don't ask don't tell is protecting the gays in the military, by that I mean that the a-holes that would just think "he's/she's gay, let's beat the h*ll out of him/her" wouldn't know if the person is or not, and they'd get in trouble for doing anything...if you tell one person you're gay there's no guarantee they won't tell someone else...and word gets around quick. BUT on the other hand, this is the US, and we are supposed to be a "free" country, I don't call having to hide yourself being "free". It's kind of a win/win, lose/lose situation. I hope all that makes sense, it did when I thought it, LOL. But anyways, I don't care if gay people are in the military, and I don't care if *I* know they're gay, it doesn't bother me one bit. BUT that's just *ME*.
LOL Cassandra! I think you got it. Soldiers can die for their country but only if they are quiet about their sexual orientation. It came about because homophobic people were afraid to share their sleeping quarters with homosexuals. Before the policy, homosexuals were not allowed to serve at all.
KarenDiane~ I think it's absolutely ridiculous, my husband and I are both in the Army, I'm in the reserves, and he's active duty. We both know gays who are in the military, and they're just as good as the next soldier.
OMG! I am from england if there is a potition that needs to be signed to fight against this stupidity so people can be openly gay and in the army, someone sign it for me!!!
OMG! If I was fighting for my country I wouldnt give a fishes left eye if the soilder on my side standing nextt to me was gay. I would be happy that I am getting help...
If it was like that over here... we'd be stuffed!! LOL...
I was ALWAYS taught to be proud of who I am and what I do in my life no matter what it is.....
If I was in the US and gay.. and wanted to be in the army, then I would be torn, i'd do anything to help my country and others where I can (for example, my dad is a shoe recylcer,... people put their old shoes in the shoe banks, my dad collects them, they get sent to africa) I am signed to charities and everything...
I would fight for the right to be OPENLY GAY AND FIGHT FOR MY COUNTRY!
I would have thought the Services would be more mature than this, and be like, who gives a sock, they wanna help us fight... meh they like men/women.... it doesnt matter they are fit enough to fight for what they think is right!!!
its like people ask if im preg i say yeah, then they ask my age I say 17 they look digusted at me... Im like.. problem? I am Happy, i HAVENT done it for the money, a house anything (I dont even want to go on benefits... (You get all these benefits over here)...I wanna work, but I wont work untill harry is 3 and even then i'll work from home with my Photography...) Some people really have no respect for others...
Whether your big/small, coloured/white, blonde/ginger gay/straight it shouldnt matter... at the end of the day we are all people, we all breathe, we all have rights and we all have FEELINGS!
I think it would be a HUGE mistake to do away with it. While I think gays have just as much right to be in the military as anyone else I do believe that there are service members who will freak out and begin accusations against gay members if there is an open gay policy. This would cause big problems on ships, in barracks, foxholes and many other places.
I never could understand the point of don't ask don't tell. What difference does someones sexuality make? I have heard the argument that some don't want to serve with gay soldiers, but if they are still there, just not honest about it, how does that help anything? I'm not American either though, so I guess it's not my argument, but truly, I don't get it at all. Shouldn't it be about how good a soldier they are? I just think that anyone willing to lay down their lives for their country should be treated with honor and respect, no matter what their sexual orientation or race or religion or any of that stuff is. Who cares?
Adgal, don't ask was a compromise. It used to be that the military would ask all recruits if they were homosexual. If they answered yes, they could not serve. If the answered no, and they were later discovered engaged in homosexual relations they would be discharged.
So here was the compromise. Don't ask recruits if they are homosexual, and as long as a high level of discretion is maintained (aka "don't tell") then allow the service to continue. The amount of discretion required varies by service.
How many discharges take place for homosexuality? According to the military, its about 1100 per year, sometimes a little more, sometimes less.
Of course, the military has wide latitude on what kind of discharge they give.
Here is an article where a lesbian was given a general discharge, presented to just describe the situation.
I fully support a dont ask dont tell approach to homosexuality in the military. It prevents folks from using their difference/personal identification as a diversion or means of division. In all fairness the same should apply to anything a person might use as a "platform" to promote their own agenda/identity, such as race, religion or cause. Dont ask dont tell not only protects the persons involved, it protects others from them. There is time for that sort of person identification when a person retires from or quits the military. While they are serving it is bad for morale/the overall goal of unity to draw attention to themselves in that way.
I think it has to do with the whole "EO" and sexual harassment. EO being equal opportunity. There's usually a person in every unit/group of people assigned to EO, they handle all the harassment/complaints of that nature.
It's my belief that if they do away with the policy, more people would get kicked out anyways. There would be more EO complaints about sexual harassment, people would take things the wrong way, if they knew a soldier was gay they'd think everything they do is harassment.
You also have to look at it from a gay man's position...not to be mean, but some people would kick his @$$. There would be people calling him names, being just plain mean, there might not be a lot of males that would want to be friends with him, and if they were then they might get called gay, etc...from a gay female's position, you'd fit in more. You'd be "one of the guys" almost, and you'd be able to have the "she's so hot" conversations. I'm not saying the policy is more for one or the other, but you have to think about it from all points of view.
On the other hand, if you are gay in the military you have to hide yourself...you can't really have a relationship with someone, you're not going to really be happy, and you're living a lie, to an extent.
It's really not an easy decision. People have a lot of pros and cons to look at. It's sad that it is such a big issue, but people have made it so.
But it shouldnt matter about their sexuality whether theey can serve or not...
You wouldnt say you cant be in the army because you have a coloured skin because that's racism and discrimination....
so how does this make anything any better, its like how it was all those years ago about coloured people being on the same bus as white people and the coloured has NO CHOICE but to give up their seat because people thought white people had higher authority...
Its pretty much the same.
'You can't fight because you like the same sex'... its silly!! jeeeeze, a gay person isnt going to come onto someone without signs being sent... My best friend is gay, I shared a bed with her a few weeks ago... cause I cba to sleep on the floor!!
it shouldnt matter about WHO they are, what is important is WHAT they CAN do to fight for what they think is right!
That's a very good point and I do agree with you, but it's just not that simple unfortunately.
Race vs gay, is same, but it's not completely different at the same time.
Hmmm...it's kinda like in the US having nudist beaches...if you're a nudist, why can't you be anywhere you want? OR breast feeding in public...why do people make it such a big deal? Other countries it's not...it's because the US sees it as sexual, and offensive. Neither of those are really similar to the don't ask don't tell, but do you see what I mean?
I don't know about that. I haven't seen any kind of poll/voice from the military yet, besides hearing form retirees and people way up in the chain of command. My husband and I are both in the Army. I personally can't come to a conclusion on it as of yet because of the pros and cons, being that there are so many of each.
Oh BF in public... and that argument! It shouldnt even have an arguement... if your baby is hungry feed it! SIMPLE!, Most people when BF in public dont sit there with their breasts hanging out for all to see, they cover up for politeness.
I see EXACTLY what you mean (I was using them as examples too)... but its a way of life, I dont see why its offensive...
its not like they are going to stand on the front line in a tutu on another blokes back? Or with a$sless trousers...and making it obvious they are gay they are getting on with what they need to do, whilst they HAVE to do it...
Gay people are encouraged to be proud and 'come out' and then the US Army are taking that right and honesty away from them, when they are told to be honest and stuff!!!
I am not against the US at all, I think its lovely... I would be living there right now, and im not being a doucheyy englishh kn0b.. I just dont think its fair... (I think most of you dont either) as long as they can fight it shouldnt matter!!!
smj, I think you hit the nail on the head. It does seem to me that this really comes down to many peoples attitudes toward gay people in general. And I guess for me that is what I don't understand...I truly don't get why anyone cares. I guess I am an idealist...I just think we are all the same and should be judged by our actions. I mean, it wasn't all that long ago that the military also had seperate troops (if that is the right term?) for black people, etc. We now know that was wrong and it's not a practice anymore.
I guess to me this policy is just less then genuine. For someone to be good enough to lay down their lives for their country, yet be asked to live a lie while doing that just seems wrong to me. I truly don't understand. I mean, they are already there right? The thing is I suspect that if this was done away with you wouldn't see all these people coming out declaring their sexual orientation. For most that is a private matter and does not belong in the workplace. I just don't think that if they are "found out" or decide to be open about it there should be any punishment. But you are right, until peoples attitudes change nothing else will.
NOT just the Army...it's ALL military, every branch.
And I do agree that it's not fair that they have to live a lie, but then I worry about what would happen if they were open about it. I wonder if it would cause more problems between soldiers, and cause more harm than good...I can't be the judge of what would happen though, it's up to each individual person in the military as to how they would handle it.
In a way don't ask don't tell is GOOD for gays, and in a way it's BAD. I'm just not sure which sticks out more.
adgal~~~I agree. I don't understand why it is such a big deal.
I can see the good and bad on both sides of the fence on this one. I don't think anyone should be kicked out if they are found out about, but then again I don't think people should flaunt things either,or disrespect the uniform. NO, I'm not saying hide that you're gay...
I think that while you're wearing your uniform, you are as I was taught in basic training. You're all GREEN (for the Army at least). That means you are one, you're not male, you're not female, you're not ____ (whatever race), married, single, a parent, ____ (whatever age). YOU ARE GREEN. You are a soldier in the United States Army, and you are *supposed* to act like it.
There are rules about what you are allowed to do and aren't allowed to do in uniform, but that doesn't mean people follow them. You aren't supposed to go to bars and drink in uniform, but I've had people walk into restaurants I've worked at and do just that, or show up drunk to where I was working, in uniform. It was pretty embarrassing when we were in Korea to say I'm from the US, because of the way some soldiers acted.
I mean every branch... I forget the whole thing is the military haha. (Sorry).
I worry tooo, It wouldnt be fair to be teased about being you....But everyone gets teased about everything... I get teased for being ginger, I get teased for being short... My brother get teased for his glasses (he has a prob with his brain giving a message to his eye to work)....
its like living a lie, some parents would literally disown their children if they found out their sexuality... that upsets me!!
(Which brings us to your MIL VENT... playing with Dolls, some parents wont cause they will think their child will be gay and then they will be ashamed)
But if a straight solider goes to a gay soilder (say they have been mates for AGES) are you gay? he wouldnt lie, because that wouldnt be right... but then if he does lie he saves being beaten up... which I guess is better...
its a win win lose lose situation... many people waanna fight for the gays to be able to be open about it whereas they also wana protect them and so they are for it...
smjmekg The Military I have heard from are not retirees and some are not 'way up' my SIL served 3 times in iraq I come from a military family, and I know many people of all age groups , even high up in the Navy and yes they do say on the whole that dont ask dont tell works...I will grant you that they are right wing possibly that makes a differance ...
Once again smj, I 100% agree with you. The uniform is something to be proud of and should be treated accordingly. So innappropriate behavior while wearing it should not be tolerated at all. That isn't living a lie, that is just respect for your country and what that uniform represents.
I don't think that being gay or heterosexual is disrepectful to that ideal. (not saying you do either). It is how all conduct themselves that should be the defining factor.
I have a friend who is a Capt. in the Marines. He said he supports don't as don't tell , not for just gay men and women but for everyone. He doesn't want to know if the guy next to him is gay or straight, he just knows him as his brother. he has also said that he knows that if don't ask... is gone and if the minority of gay people come out, then they would be subject to some form of harrassment. He has no problem with gay men or women and doesn't think it should matter, but knows that 18-20 something year old inlisted men it does matter.
well Sabrina honestly I think only you, your husband, and the fellow soldiers serving in the US military have a right to make this decision. Anyone who doesn't have the balls to stand up and put their life on the line for their country has no call making a decision about who can and can't serve in their place. I don't personally know how I feel about it; I have no problem with gay people, but I think that revoking "Don't ask, Don't tell" will open up opportunities for anti-gay violence in the ranks...and we do NOT need any more division. But the fact that I don't know how I feel about it is just fine because it shouldn't be my choice.
Ivy, being in the military doesn't help with the decision making process, for me at least. You understand how I feel too. I just don't know which way I'd go with it...there's too many pros and cons on both sides.
I'm leaning towards, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" BUT apparently to some it is...it's been working for a while, I guess the working is starting to break...
yep I get exactly what you mean. and no I know that it doesn't make the choice any clearer or easier, if anything the impact is greater....but that's why only you guys should have the choice. too many armchair warriors sit back and point fingers and say "do it this way" or "do it that way" and don't realize that they don't have to live with the consequences....so leave it to the people who DO have to live with the consequences.
It isnt like it in the UK is it?? Even though John isnt gay... (I hope)... LOL.. he wants to be in the RAF... And he will kick up a fuss if this policy is in place, because he thinks it isnt fair that they have to hide...
Its life..., we gotta live it, and live with it unfortunately, and there is ALWAYS going to be things like this in life, and I fear in time they will get worse and more immature, but are there for reaons, protection and other things...
No one will ever agree... just agree to disagree...
^I dont think that makes any sense, but it sounded smart in my noodle!
Ivy, it's unfortunate that those "armchair warriors" get any say...they're not the "current generation" and for that matter there's a wide range of generations in the military now, so I don't know if it were just up to us if we'd agree on anything or not. You got the one's who have been in 20+ years, and the ones who have been in 20 + minutes...old school, and newbies...
Cassandrajane, I have no clue what the UK is like...
If everyone agreed on everything it'd be a boring world.
here is another way of looking at it. on a ship the navy live in tiny quarters. the men are seperated from the women, and sexual contact is not allowed. now if they openly let gay men or women share living areas and showers, that opens a new can of worms. sexual contact is hard to resist im sure when you are out for months at a time, and stories from dh has proved (not his exp but from others lol) that it does happen. so what then> how do you seperate? i am not saying being gay makes you less able to control yourself, that is a human issue lol.
in all honesty i know if it were open and people were allowed to talk about their sexuality there would be beatings, rape, death. i mean more than there is now! i really wouldnt want people to know if it were myself, i would be so fearful of an ambush. its not fair but that is how it is and you cant just make others play nice ya know
EXACTLY. My husband spent 26 yrs on active duty with the Army. He told me he could careless whether a soldier was gay or straight. How he/she performed his/her job was most important. My husband said "its nobody's business what kind of sex soldiers had the night before, I don't ask straight soldiers what kind of sex they had with their wifes/girlfriends and vise versa why would I ask a soldier whether he is gay or not. His attitude was "don't talk about your sex life straight or gay and do your job".
He also told me that there were a few gay soldiers, or lets say a strong rumor in the company that they were gay, and they worked their butts off, nobody cared.
This was in the 80's were being gay was not as openly talked about as it is now in 2010, and despite that strong rumor none of these soldiers were ever harrassed.
We both support "don't ask don't tell". Its nobody's business.
Discrimination is Discrimination. You can paint it with any brush that sounds good, it still does not change what it is. These people are good enuff to give their lives for this country, these people should be afforded all the freedoms that they are giving their lives for. period....
It is not a matter of what you think about ones sexual preferences. How do you know the guy next to you is not a pedephile, rapist, etc.... It is all beside the point.
These people have the same protection and freedoms under the constitution that the rest of em do. They said many of the same things when women started serving.
This is where I get a bit confused. I agree 100% that your sexual orientation is nobody's business. I also agree 100% that it does not belong in the workplace...any workplace. I don't think anyone, straight or gay should be talking about their sex life at work...I know I don't want to hear it and I am sure most feel that way.
But my understanding of "don't ask, don't tell" was that if it was found out you were gay, you were discharged? Am I mistaken in that? Because that would be the part I would have a concern about. Perhaps I have misunderstood?
The Miltary all that I know of say 'Dont ask dont tell' works for them and they want to keep it ...its nothing at all to do with what we think or what .preferances we have, its about them and they say they managed with that rule ......no body's business ...
I'm agree with adgal,don't ask,don't tell is fine,but if a man is caught having sex with a man he will be discharged,my question is what if a man is caught having sex with a woman will he also be discharged?
I think that's where they are trying to get it reversed because you can be gay in the military but you can't say it. I think it's more for people being able to celebrate gay pride, or be able to do what they want outside of the duty day and not worry about getting into trouble.
It is not about discrimination at all the Military say it works and thats what matters not what you or I think ...I also happen to believe that folks are entitled to be whatever they chose to be, if they choose to have same sex partners so be it ,if any of my children had partners of the same sex I would still feel the same way about them.But I do think that in the Military its differant and they know if they are comfortable .Dont ask dont tell works who are we to say differant ... .
smj....I have a question on that (again, I am not American, so don't completely understand this policy and am trying to). So you can be gay, but if someone finds out then you can be discharged? Not being sarcastic here, just truly and thoroughly confused....
If I am correct in my understanding, now I am curious..
With gay marriage now being legal in some states, and chances are good it will at some point be legal in most if not all, what will happen then? Military people are allowed to be married, so will the military law be different then the regular law? What if that person is from a state where gay marriage is legal and is married? Can they then not serve? Ohhh, now I am really confused..lol.
sorta amanda. it's a little more complicated than that....if someone implicates you I think you can challenge it, but if you're "caught" engaging in a homosexual...well, lifestyle, for lack of a better word...I believe that yes you can be discharged.
it's a bizarre system but it HAS worked to a degree so far....but at the same time, it just doesn't seem fair.
It's a matter of what works for the military. This shouldn't be decided until all the surveys and studies are done.
The military has its own laws and courts. It's not a civilian mindset. Personally, I don't think most will be too upset by a change in policy but it shouldn't be a civilian decision. It's interesting to note that after WWII, most GI's surveyed didn't want to serve with blacks. It should also be noted that the highly "progressive" president Woodrow Wilson is the one who segregated the army. Prior to his election, the military was integrated. Why are they called progressives anyway? They seem to be reactionaries to me.
I don't know, I find it all very complicated. I guess if I had to answer a yes or no (if I had a vote in this) I would say do away with the policy. It somehow doesn't seem fair. And I think Sara's comments on GI's surveyed after WWII not wanted to serve with black people is sort of case in point. It's now not even an issue (at least for the vast majority). Issues like this are typically fear based...the what would happen. I think most would find nothing would change...none of the gay people I know are running around screaming it from the rooftops (well, except on gay pride day). They just want to be treated equally. Not better, not extra rights, just not differently. It's a really interesting debate smj and definately one that brings up many good points on both sides.
i agree that your sex life shouldn't be talked about in the workplace. but as a christian i have to say i dont think homosexuality should be allowed anywhere; and i am glad at least a part of our country follows that.
that might not be the answer anyone wanted; but its how i feel!
See the whole reason behind me being so torn between which would really be better is because of two main reasons...
Reason 1~~~If you do away with the policy and someone, (NOT that I'm against one or the other) specifically a male, was walking around with something that had gay pride written all over it, and making it obvious, and proudly displaying the fact that he is gay...it's gonna cause problems. No matter what. Just like in high school, which it's easily comparable to...guys would want to kick his butt if he accidently ran into them, or looked at them funny, or something like that...because that gay guy is gay and in their mind inferior. The gay females I have seen are more excepted because they're um.."bad girls" or "tough girls" for lack of more polite terms, they're one of the guys...I'm not saying that because it's how *I* feel, but it's impossible to MAKE someone be ok with a gay person standing next to them, sleeping in the same room, sharing a shower (not all bases/barracks have this but some do). WITH the policy you're protecting the gay men/women who because they can't just openly be gay, so therefore can't have negative put upon them...
Reason 2~~~With the policy in place, as a gay man/woman you can't be yourself completely. You can't just be proud of who you are, you can't walk around holding your lovers hand and expect to not be questioned, even though you can't be ASKED about your sexuality, you can be accused of being gay. You're not really free to live your life, or be who you are. You're gonna have to be watching your back, and what you say, and I don't even see how you could have a relationship.
I can see both sides of the story, and from the point of view of being in the military, I guarantee you a gay man would get his @$$ beat up if he were in some of the units I've been in/seen, which is why I think it should stay...but given that this IS the US and we are a free country, I don't think we're giving gays their full rights by requiring that they not be known as gay and in the military, which is why we should get rid of it. I really, truly, honestly can not decide which would be best. But I can say our military has been around for a while, and so has this policy, and it's only really been recently that anyone's made a real big stink about it. Not to go on a political rampage, but I'm wondering if it doesn't have something to do with our current Commander in Chief...
I agree with don't ask don't tell,but I don't understand how they can legally throw someone out of the forces if it is found out,this is where discrimination comes into it,right or wrong it is still discrimination.
This might nott make sense due to the policy...
But the only way it would and an inkling of being sorted is to get the Military to vote...
All the suspected Gay people to vote what they want, and then the straights to what they want...
OR have a general debate. I don't see why if its that important when they Join up, they ask and keep in confidential... no one else has to know, but the person in charge could know and keep it in their records CONFIDENTIALLY for an opportunity (LIKE THIS DEBATE) to occur then they can divide the vottes (In private so no one else finds out what and who and things) so they can get it equal.
I know in UK it is discrimination to ask their Sexuality, but if you get to know your work mates well, you can tell them if they ask, and if they have a problem then tough. I know about the past, and about the gays not having any rights at all...and this is kinda like that just not as harsh a back then... the military are just protecting them at the end of the day.
This reeally wont ever get solved, because there are some that are Homophobic and some gays that are just worried!!!
But like smj said, I dont know how they can have a relationship and live, if they are living a lie!
I believe what is decided right for one, should be right for all. So perhaps, EDFA should be put in place. That would be "Equal Discrimination For All". If a gay person can't tape a picture of his/her significant other over their bunk or in their helmet, then neither should a straight person have a picture of their spouse. No talk of sexual anything from anyone. Period. It's only fair.
As far as only the military voting on it, well then they should probably vote at least every other year or so, since attitudes can evolve rapidly.
Adgal - you do have the correct understanding of "Don't ask, don't tell"
The problem with asking the military to vote is that the military body has a huge turnover. You would have to revisit the issue every couple of years because there are so many people coming and going from the ranks.
And many posters are stating that sexual orientation should not be discussed at work. I agree with this. However, people in the military live together. They share much more than work stations. I have 2 brothers who served in the Navy. They had to live with their fellow sailors for 6 month stretches at sea. Is it really fair to ask that homosexuals hide their lifestyles from everyone they come in contact with for months at a time. It's part of who they are. No one would ever ask a straight person to refrain from mentioning their significant other for that long.
Another thing that I keep reading is that this policy is meant to protect homosexuals from harrassment. If a homosexual doesn't want to have their sexuality known, they have that right but they should also have the right to express themselves. The people who harrass others need to be punished and discharged.
Overt homosexuality has no place whatsoever in the military. Period.
The issue has been raised by those who have a desire to destroy the military forces of the United States.
By any means necessary.
To even consider this verges on insanity.
Mankind has several thousand years of experience in this area. We don't need to "survey" the current generation of eighteen year olds who have completed basic training. We don't need the "military to vote".
There is something called leadership.
Overt homosexuality is mose assuredly incompatable with leadership of men in combat. I guess if your job is washing airplane tires it doesn't make much difference. But that isn't combat.
I'm not interested in protecting homosexuals from "harassment".
I'm interested in doing the most damage to the other guy with the least damage to my soldiers.
That is the final arbiter.
The object of a military force is to win wars.
That is more important that the alleged "rights of gays to serve".
And this involves violence and making decisions to do terrible things to other human beings. It involves killing, maimimg, mutilating and burning other human beings. It involves deliberately breaking their bones, blinding them, blowing off other human beings arms and legs and burning them alive. Doing so with explosives, projectiles, knives, clubs and burning gasoline.
And it involves motivating men to stand up and walk towards certain death and the possibiloity of these things happening to them upon receipt of a single verbal order.
That order, from a male officer is: "follow me!".
There is a statue at the Infantry School at Fort Benning of such an officer.
The power of an officer in combat over is men is absolute.
An openly gay officer is a joke. Gag me with a spoon!
The lifestyle is absolutely incompatable with leadership of other males in combat.
The introduction of overt homosexuality into the military will cost lives.
caregiver222....THANK YOU! ONLY for your honesty, because YOU and others like YOU are the reason why we have don't ask don't tell, to allow gay people to serve, without you knowing.
FIRST OFF let me say that, I don't know what generation of the military you're talking about but there ARE WOMEN in the military now.
We do NOT maim, mutilate, or burn other human beings, we don't deliberately break bones, blind people, blow off arms and legs or burn people alive, we DO NOT use gasoline...what country are you from??? We ARE taught to kill, but ROE...RULES OF ENGAGEMENT. We do not fire, unless fired upon. Even in war, we do have morals, and we do have standards...we don't just torture and kill anyone who gets in our way.
We DO need to survey the military, and in case you haven't noticed, it's only the newly enlisted that MAY fit the "eighteen year old" category, but even those joining for the first time aren't just eighteen year olds.
There's no "walking towards certain death". If that were true EVERY person overseas would never come home until they were in a coffin.
Caregiver, everyone who serves in the military knows that the objective is to win wars. If they did not buy in to this fully, they wouldn't be in the military. There have been gays in the military since time immemorial, and they do their job, fire their weapon, fly their plane, protect the unit, get medals, die heroically, and watch out for their buddies, just like any other military person.
I disagree that the abolition of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" means the introduction of "overt" homosexuality. Overt sexuality (gay or straight) is not present in military units. (The real historic "don't ask, don't tell" is that a guy's buddies don't tell his wife what he did on leave. Maybe that is where "don't ask, don't tell" should stay...in the realm of what happens on leave.)
I also think more and more people in the military today have grown up in a world in which it doesn't bother men if other men are gay.
Soldiers go into battle saying "Follow Me!" thinking about taking the objective without being destroyed, not wondering who goes to bed with whom. If an officer is an inspirational leader, brave and smart, that is all they need, and they are glad to have it.
TACOMA, Wash. – A federal judge ruled Friday that a decorated flight nurse discharged from the Air Force for being gay should be given her job back as soon as possible in the latest legal setback to the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy.
The decision by U.S. District Judge Ronald Leighton came in a closely watched case as a tense debate has been playing out over the policy. Senate Republicans blocked an effort to lift the ban this week, but Leighton is now the second federal judge this month to deem the policy unconstitutional.
Maj. Margaret Witt was suspended in 2004 and subsequently discharged under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy after the Air Force learned she had been in a long-term relationship with a civilian woman. She sued to get her job back.
Please note, this woman did nothing wrong. She put no one at risk, nor did she engage in freakish behavior. Now someone tell me this woman deserved to lose her job? Go ahead and try! It is unconstitutional and WILL BE done away with, as soon as the republicans etc, are done using it as a political football. Just watch and see!
I think what is most worrisome is just the attitude of some toward gay people in general. It's like some have this vision of them all running around behaving flamboyantly or innapropriately, dressed unusually, etc. And what on earth would being gay have to do with one's ability to be brave or follow orders?
I can understand the fear of discriminatory behaviour. But in all honesty, if someone did attack someone else for being gay, that is called a hate crime. You can dislike something, but you cannot just attack someone for that which you disagree with.
I still have a hard time understanding...gay people are there and have always been there. So nothing actually changes except that if they so choose they can be honest about it. But it's not like there will suddenly be an increase in sexual attacks in the shower or something. I don't know, the policy just seems odd to me.
I know that military life is different then civilian. My dad was military and I know certain behavior was expected in uniform (as smj made reference to). But I still don't think anyone, gay or straight, should be behaving in an overtly sexual way at work. Male, female, gay, straight, period.
I'm really tired of the word "discrimination". The military has a policy, just like Civilian companies have a policy. Gays CAN join the military. If they don't like the "don't ask don't tell" policy then don't join the military.
The military has a policy that you cannot be older than 42 yrs old (it used to be 35) when joining for the FIRST time. This IS the policy. Does that mean a man/woman at age 43 would not be capable of doing a job just as good as a 42 yr old?? Why don't THEY also call it "discrimination" against them???
If you are over a certain weight while in the military and you cannot lose it in a certain amount of time you get kicked out. Why don't the people who cannot lose that weight also call that "discrimination"????.
In the Civilian world why don't the women who have a size above 4 and weigh over 100 pounds why don't they also call it discrimination when applying for Miss America or Miss Universe and are told they are to fat. Why do all the Miss Americas/Universe look like they are all the same size/weight?? A woman size 14 cannot be just as intelligent, just as talented???
Why do models all looke like they are straight out of a concentration camp with bones sticking out, why aren't there any models who weigh 110 pounds instead of 80?? Why are they not screaming discrimination??
The woman in the article above was discharged because the military found out, not that she told them, or that she was doing anything against the principles of her job. Note, she had a civilian relationship. It was frankly none of their business. So yes I will use that word again, it is discrimination. I also agree with what one of the others posters said, it the dont ask dont tell thing stays in place it should cover all across the board, restricting them talking about relationships, etc or anything having to do with their family lives or sexual orientation, or displaying pics etc in any fashion. Now that would be fair and to do anything less is discrimination. IMO
I can see how "Don't ask, don't tell" can work for and against homosexuals. I know a number of people in the military and think it's good in protecting them from being beat up. I know that if a man were openly gay, he'd probably get the shi+ beat out of him. I heard from a friend about a guy in his barracks getting beat up for talking about a night out at a gay bar. So in that respect, it can help protect them. At the same time, it is discrimination. To be discharged just for being gay is horrible. It shouldn't matter one way or the other. I have a few good friends who are gay and I always enjoy their company. It's hard to say which is better, because they are to an extent being protected, but at the same time have to be quiet. I really think it's a lose lose situation. No one will win with this..
@caregiver222 I know many gay men who could possibly wipe the floor with you! To say that an openly gay/homosexual has no right in a leadership position is absolutely absurd and just reinstates all the stereotypes that society has come up with. Very ridiculous statement sir and I'm sure you have NO FACTUAL basis from which to make such a statement.
I believe caregiver was speaking about The United States Miltary its fine to get the input from non Americans but he is talking about The US Military I believe that some of you have differant rules in your countries and you are talking about the US here .
Dont ask dont tell is what most of the Military in the US like, it works for them, when I say put it to the vote , it will be the US Military voting ,thats if it were feasable to do every couple of years, its about them and what they want not us ......
I gotta ask...Margy, how do you know what most of the US military wants? How many of them do you know?
And in all honesty as someone outside the US, hearing CareGivers description of the US military is quite frightening. I am glad I do know several US Military members and know differently...or at least they are not big on maiming etc. And from what I know and have seen, I am fairly confident your gov't, current and past, would frown on that sort of behavior.
Now really. How can you take anyone seriously that says "gag me with a spoon"? I think that would be enough for a dishonorable discharge right there!
I personally think putting it to a vote of 'current' members of the US armed services is a good idea. Perhaps things have evolved in how the men and women of today feel about homosexuality and who they want to lead them. Some of them may not mind being gagged with a spoon at all and choose their leaders based on their skill set vs. sexual orientation.
What the military decides for themselves on this matter is fine by me. I rest comfortably believing that all are doing the best they can defending and protecting our country. They have my utmost respect. This is their decision.
Oh my God above....when I read caregiver's post and the supportive responses, I literally had to gasp and re-read to make sure what I was reading was right. are people so truly hateful of their fellow man and content with continuing to espouse medeival concepts of self-superiority and acceptance of intolerance?
@Barbarella...you're seriously mistaken. those examples all DO have cases where people cry descrimination. America's Next Top Model? considered descriminatory because there were no "plus-sized" models..when they finally added a few, none of them were over size 5 so they cried "descrimination" again...and there have been cases of "descrimination" filed against the military for weight requirements. usually they didn't win, but it's been done.
I'm sorry but I literally cannot formulate a complete response I cannot believe people are so COMFORTABLE with hatred.
I usually stay away from the age issue just because it tends to work against me more than it works for me, but I think it's time to remind people that the "old" ideals are on the way out and the "new" way of looking at things is working it's way in. (and no I'm not making a republican/democrat reference...this is purely social). And the great majority of my generation are accepting of homosexuality, whether we approve of it or not. I was raised Catholic and I still consider myself predominantly Catholic. homosexuality is not something I am religiously comfortable with...but it's not MY soul in the balance, and it's not MY life choice. and anyone who would speak ill of someone in the military who is gay doesn't make sense to me...if you truly think they don't belong out there sacrificing their life for you because they're gay, you're welcome to take their place.
This issue belongs in the military. their issue, their vote. period. It's none of the business of us "civvies".
Many times the Military high ups' generals have made it clear its not a case of 'how many do I know' thats ridiculous ,its public knowledge nothing to do with my family although they tell me the same so dont use it as an excuse once more to call me personally out, google to see what the Miltary want to have.. I think its just not our affair and really its definatly up to The Military top make it clear what THEY want..nothing to do with hatred, amazing that word comes up consistantly, I would never hate a person for having the life they choose to have , I respect them as much as I do any other nice person...if any of my children had been homosexual they would still be treated the same as the others and I would welcome and resct their partners ...
sorry, respect their partners..I suggest adgal that you use google to find out what the the US Miltary want,we have in The US actually had Generals speaking out on TV regarding this matter...so thats 'how I know'
I am going to put a different spin on this. These in the military have volunteered. As such, they should all be afforded equal rights, which ever way you want to go with it. Doesnt matter. IF our military were the result of a DRAFT, it might make this easier to understand, but they are not. Our personal views on homosexuality, whether we agree with the lifestyle or not is beside the point. Personally if a time of war I think they ought to empty the prisons as well and put them to good use! As I stated before, there are regulations in place as far as sexual activity in the military and under those rules all are held accountable regardless of preference, and that is as it should be. But to tell someone your good enuff to give your life for me, but not good enuff to be you under the same constitution your fighting for, is flat out wrong imo.
Dont ask dont tell will be overturned, its just a matter of time, and that is as it should be.
Have you been in the military/personally know someone who is/has been? Just because some jack@ss general says "this is what we want" does NOT mean it's the decision of the military as a whole. Do you honestly think that general looked at all the lower enlisted and said, what do you guys think? NO! He/she sat down with others that are up there in rank and they probably said "this is what WE had to live with, so we will continue it". You have to think, these people up there in rank have been in AT LEAST 20 years, I guarantee it, they still go by some of the "old school" rules. You can NOT determine the military's standings on ANY issues based solely off some high in rank officer.
I'm enlisted, as is my husband, our rank doesn't matter, we've been in 3 1/2 years each...ask me how many times we've had our "superiors" if you will, ask US what we wanted...ZERO!
And as far as "google" goes to find out what the military wants...yeah. That's like googling "coughing up blood" and coming to your own diagnosis, having a dr friend write a prescription and taking drugs that you have NO clue will work on you, for an illness you found because you "have the symptoms".
The world wide web is an awesome place to find things, but as far as feelings, you can't find them.
If someone happens to find a link to some site that shows where the military AS A WHOLE voted and the site lists the results, please tell me, so I can file a complaint because I wasn't involved in this voting process, or poll, or ever asked how I feel about it. So until you show me proof of "the military feels THIS way" I call BS!
well-put Sabrina...and I actually wasn't referring to you Margy, but caregiver's post was FULL of hate..and misconceptions....and prejudice. I know that saying "those words are thrown around SO much" and trying to devaluate it makes it feel like someone is not being prejudiced...but the facts are the facts. even if NO ONE called "prejudice" or "hatred"...it would still be. universal truths exist independently of those who speak the words; hatred is still hatred even if the speaker denies it. in fact, a lot of people may not even realize that they HAVE hatred, because it's been such a comfortable part of their life that they don't think that they themselves may in fact be a hateful person....no one WANTS to think that they're a hateful person, but if you examine the things you say and the beliefs you hold...you may, in fact, find a surprising amount of animosity...and this applies to EVERYONE myself included! this is why it's vital to constantly challenge your own beliefs ...and this is why the military has to revisit this policy, even if nothing ends up changing.
Some are saying that it's meant to 'protect' gays? We are putting these men and women on the front-line for God's sake... how is that for 'protection'? Why isn't it an individuals choice whether or not they choose to protect their identity for whatever reason? As far as the reasoning of homophobes crying 'sexual harassment', SIMPLE~ use fairness, facts, evidence and common sense as you would in any other accusation of sexual harassment being made!
By the way, it's still discrimination any way you look at it! Discrimination is defined as; making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.
It means the opposite of equality! If you are discharged b/c of sexual orientation then it's being used against you and you are being JUDGED by the group, class or category rather than merit.
What's more important is whether or not a soldier has the skills, physical and emotional strength, courage and willingness to fulfill the requirements. Capability seems to be the only thing that should matter.
Besides, don't you think that people would have more confidence, pride and strength if they could be happy, accepted and themselves??? I know I'd rather have someone with those qualities fighting with and/or for me!!!
The military's policy should not include discrimination PERIOD!
Yes, there is discrimination in the world, sadly. It exists because people don't have tolerance. That doesn't make it ok though. Any & all government programs should be above that!
How can you compare age discrimination to sexual orientation? I'm not saying that they should have a cut-off age either because there are people of age who are capable of filling the requirements and I believe that if they can pass the required tests, they SHOULD be allowed, otherwise, it should be considered discrimination as well! BUT what we know is that as we age, our reflexes are slower, our eyesight is worsened, our bones are more fragile, we are at a greater risk for heart attack and other medical problems that would interfere with our capability to serve. By the way, weight is a requirement for a reason... like age is... being physically fit is pertinent to health and the ability to run and battle.
Miss America & Miss Universe pageants are based on looks, so if you are unattractive in any way, you aren't accepted. Society decides what is or is not unattractive and in a way, that goes back to tolerance. It's a stupid contest & in no way comparable to the military. A pageant is defined as; a pretentious display or show that conceals a lack of real importance or meaning.
On the subject of models... there are models who are not paper-thin. They are called plus-sized models. Again, this goes back to 'society's definition of beauty'. We are the only ones who can change it! As long as people keep spewing ignorance, hate, intolerance and discrimination... unfortunately, it will continue to exist = (
Well-said LilSissy....and I agree. saying that it's not discrimination doesn't change the truth. it is. so many people, especially recently say "it's not racism..I hate that people say that" or "it's not discrimination...that's such an EXCUSE"...uh..yeah, it is. it is exactly what it is, regardless of whether someone wants it to be or not. like I said...no one WANTS to be discriminatory or full of hate...no one wakes up in the morning saying "i'm going to be a complete jerk today and hate someone for their sexual orientation".....but that doesn't mean that you can be excused for ignorance, IMO. just because you don't INTEND to be hateful doesn't give people a free pass....the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Margy...I was not calling you out. I was asking you a question as you stated many times that you knew what the military wanted. I wanted to know how you knew that. The reason I asked is because smj, who IS an active military member had commented earlier she had never been asked. No offense was intended, I just wanted to know.
One of the things it's so important to point out is that it is discussions like this that will eventually bring if not an end, at least a decrease in lack of tolerance and discrimination. You can call it whatever you like, but if it walks like a duck....
Hearing comments from those much younger the I such as Ashelen and smj, Onyx, etc. give me a great deal of hope for the future of this world. Their attitudes are much different then the old school thinking and from their comments it's clear that many of these old attitudes are changing. Thank God for that.
This policy still makes no sense to me. As far as I can tell we don't have it in Canada (yes, we do have a military..lol) and our men and women are currently serving in Afghanistan..have been for a long time. I can not find a high degree of hate crimes or beatings or anything like that....I am sure some don't like it, but it doesn't seem to have impacted anything. Being that people are people no matter what country they come from, this sort of leads me to believe that it won't shake up the US military too much either. At the end of the day these men and women are incredibly brave and deserve our upmost respect...not everyone is willing to serve their country the way they do. And that means all of them...every single one....color, race, religion or sexual orientation should not play a part. Equality just seems the best thing to me. I don't know, maybe I am just too much of an idealist.
I wont be drawn adgal you have done this many times I answered it ,read last my post again ........my opinion is what I gave here ....it was not confrontational, I say its up to the US Military to sort it out and no one else., ..have a wonderful day ........
My husband spent 26 yrs on active duty with the Army. He believes in the "don't ask don't tell" and believes strongly that it will never be overturned. He never had a problem with a gay soldier because my husband didn't care what he/she did behind closed doors. My husband cared about their performance whether gay or straight i.e. "did they/are they doing a good job".
Gays CAN join the military, if they don't like the "don't ask don't tell" policy then "don't join the military". Its still an all volunteer military. The military is not the only one with policies, Civilian companies have them too.
The military does NOT DENY gays, it simply has a "don't ask don't tell policy", and there is a reason for it. If people have a problem with that, to bad! It is what it is.
Nobody puts a gun to a gay person's head and forces them to join the military. They know of the "don't ask don't tell" when they sign up. They "still" sign up! Maybe the gays who sign up are not the ones who have a problem with "don't ask don't tell", but the Civilians who are looking for something to trash the military with. Ever thought about that??
If gays joining the military were THAT much bothered by the "don't ask don't tell" they'd never sign up. They know exactly "who,what and with" they are signing up BEFOREHAND unless they have lived under a rock for decades.
IMO Its the Civilians who have the problem wanting to trash the military.
P.S. Maybe a survey should be done on how many gays in the military WELCOME the "don't ask don't tell" thinking there might be a lesser chance to get harrassed if they "don't tell". Ever thought about that??
Well said Barbarella ...indeed It is puzzling that so many are so concerned ...you are right of course they are told the rules if It bothered any homosexual they wouldnt join the Military would they and why all this worry others are having about it ? I am sure that before they sign that final bottom line they are aware of the rule of 'Dont ask Dont tell' I agree I dont think the Military 'powers that be' will over turn it ...
I do see your point Barbarella...perhaps this is much ado about nothing. And I do think a survey is probably the best way to find out for certain...maybe an annonymous survey so there is no fear of any sort of retribution? Not saying there would be, but you never know, and it's a good way to ensure people feel completely comfortable being honest.
I am not certain if I can agree that gay people welcome don't ask don't tell as in all honesty even if it were overturned, I suspect most wouldn't talk about it openly anyway. I think both sides agree that sexual conversation is not appropriate in the military, or any workplace for that matter. I think it's more about being discharged if found out, such as the example Teko gave aways up. If someones sexual life takes place outside of work time and outside of the workplace, I just don't think they should be penalized for it, as long as it's legal.
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