(WARNING, SARCASTIC JOURNAL)Should I raise my sons to be disrespectful to women??

Also wanted to add that I hope anyone that reads this also knows to decipher sarcasm.....thanks

You said it, ridiculous. I'm so incredulous here I don't even know what to think. So, let me get this straight, because I'm pro-life I'm teaching my sons to disrespect women?! I think, rather, that I'm teaching them to have respect for ALL human life and that ALL human life is sacred. I do NOT teach my boys to be dominating over women.
This is so insulting to a big majority of people, I truly don't know why you'd make this journal. I'm assuming it was because of my journal, which I thought was pretty mild and just something that was interesting. You know, I've noticed something. Pro-choice people are always saying that pro-life people are so hateful when I've noticed it time and time again that it's the exact opposite. This is incredibly insulting.

I do not think that pro life people teach their children to be disrespectful....I was just saying in a sarcastic way that by trying to say abortion should be illegal, that you are taking away right from a woman.......that is the fact of the matter

my sarcastic refernce to raising my boys was only that...sarcastic reference.....I guess by me saying that it was sarcastic wasnt enough of a clue to that fact.  

I still don't understand where all the hatefulness comes from but, oh well.

I think women should have a choice of placing their children up for adoption, instead of terminating the pregnancy. I understand that sometimes, it's life threatening to continue with it, but most often, that isn't the case. We all have our different opinions.

its not even hate....I dont hate people for their opinion.  I DISLIKE the idea that every woman should conform to what certain people think.....isnt this why we fought for rights so many years ago?  Why we fought for the right to vote? and be taught?  Heck even the right to know how to read?  We wanted to be seen as equals...we wanted the same rights and liberties as everyone else......well, call me crazy but I believe a woman should have the right to do what she wants when it comes to her body

I am pro-choice, and I don't think that April is hateful at all.  I think that she puts her beliefs out there in a respectful way.

I am pro-choice ONLY because I don't feel that the government should have any say-so in what us women can do with our bodies.  That's overstepping the governments domain, in my book.  Do I think abortion is morally wrong?  That depends, on the reasons for the abortion.  In cases of rape, to save the mom's life, or if the baby has catastrophic genetic problems- I don't feel that it's wrong.  In cases of, late term abortion of a normal child-this is morally wrong.  Is it up to the government to decide whether women can have an abortion or not?  No way....out of the question!

Well, you can have your beliefs. Obviously it's a free country. But I believe a woman doesn't have a right to terminate a life. Yes, I believe she should have the right to vote, work, earn the same wages as men, etc., but once it's involved another life, then the other life should have the right to live. Where's the baby's rights? It doesn't have any rights. How sad is that.

You might start this great campaign of yours by learning how to spell "women".  ;D

I understand wanting the right to do whatever to your body - but I agree with babypooh on this topic.
So basically you're saying that if the woman gets p/g (which she knew her chances lying in that bed) and the father of the child wants the baby but she doesn't, it's right for her to kill his baby just b/c she doesn't want it?

ZQ, I understand what you're saying but most abortions aren't for medical reasons. Most are for pure selfish reasons when there's nothing wrong with the baby or the mom. And that's a fact. I just wish something could be done about that. I just don't see how we could make it better.

RR, you really are fanatical about spelling, lol.

Sprry rockrose I forgot that you were the spelling police today.

Dnikki- as unfortunate as the scenario might be for the man, its just the way it is.  It happened to my brother.  His girlfriend was pregnant and decided to have a late term abortion( which I am against BTW).  There was nothing he could do.  It was her body and her decision.

Sorry I guess I misspelled sorry in the last one too.....hard to type when your holding a baby.

Well, I'd stay on here and add more.  But, I can tell that this journal is about to get ugly...real soon.  So, OFFF I go!!

Ack,  April,  I usually don't comment on spelling.   I almost never do, I think you can realize that.    I thought your article was copied and pasted from a commercial website,  so I commented on misspelling because I thought it was making light of the issue.  : (   And this post about makes my head fly off so I feel compelled to tell her she's misspelling women.  

I am staunchly pro-choice,  honestly,  but this post by ziggysgrl seems so completely dismissive of the gravity,  and the enormity  of the decision,  I couldn't help but be nasty about spelling.     Usually I just ignore it.  

i believe that an abortion is okay till 12 weeks i guess that makes me a bad person right?
but i had one cuz my dad raped me, guess i should have had the baby right?
or maybe i should of kept it and it turned out retarded or missing a leg an arm?!
or maybe i should be reminded that my dad is a MONSTER right for all those nine months?!
maybe thats what you think should happen if your daughter god forib was raped by a monster too right?!
YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE GONNA DO TIL IT HAPPENS TO YOU OR SOMEONE YOU LOVE VERY MUCH!!!!!!

BTW,  ziggysgrl,  good job on quick editing.  

Gee, ZQ, why would you think talking about abortion would get ugly? Abortion, religion, politics...what can we talk about then? Lol

OK....RockRose I am not going to argue with you about how you think I take the decision lightly.  I have had my life affected by abortion(as I would have a beautiful nephew right now).  I am sarcastic.  I am a sarcastic person by nature.  just like when I wrote about gay marriage.  The title of my post was "shall we kill them all" or something like that.  That's how I get my point across.  if you don't like it that's fine.  I am usually very good about my grammar, BTW.  I was just in a loud environment(Super Bowl) and didn't look it over.  I'm so sorry, again.

Life is Life, no matter how it came about to be. Bad things happen, but we deal with them as best as we can, unless it's life threatening to us.
People hurt us all the time and abuse us emotionally or physically making us not want them in our lives. Should we kill THEM? That's illegal, isn't it?

guess i dont blong here right sorry iwont bother any one again just peole make me mad when they judge things people do before knowing what it feels like themselves i dont care if your pro choice or pro life just remember THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCSEPTONS @ EVRY RULE

The leading cause of death in pregnant women is murder...it can be life threatening to a woman to carry a child.

fairylover...so sorry for all that you went through...
UNTIL YOU walk a mile in one shoes...WHO Are we to judge? or decide for another what is right or wrong???  
I am 100% proud PRO-CHOICE!!!!   "MY" choice would to NEVER abort...BUT...that is MY DECISION FOR ME...myself and I....I am not capable of making that decision for others...PERIOD!!!!  
STOP parading with the PRO LIFE signs ...my ds is sick to his stomach when he sees them...he is 10!!!!

I will say *for the record* I agree with abortion ONLY if 1. The girl/woman is raped by whoever 2. The baby is going to be severly retarded or severe developmental issues as in they are not repairable and would create a very poor quality of life and 3. It is life threatning
So, now that I have said that, I am leaving this post lol - it's going to get ugly quick...

actually they are not in front of your face 24 7 and hey if you want a child to suffer in so many ways then fine but what if it happened to you when you were 9 years old then that 9 yr old should have to go through that traumatic situation cuz thats how old i was i had just turned 9 and just barely had my first period but my dad thought i was a woman ya right i was only a baby

You don't have to apologize,  ziggysgrl.  This is your journal.  You can misspell anything you want.

The abortion/choice question isn't about men dominating women in my opinion.    It's about women making the choice,  based on their knowledge.  

And I do know women who (bizarrely enough) who didn't understand they were killing a living fetus,  but rather,  thought they were sloughing off groups of nonliving cells.  Like clumby blood clots.  

Until everyone who has an abortion  fully acknowledges that an abortion is killing a baby,  I don't think the prochoice philosophy (which I completely agree with) is completely morally right.  Until women can state "I know I'm killing my living baby" when they have an abortion,  I don't think the act is morally correct.

I say this after facing the possibility of an abortion because there was a mistaken belief that my third child had a horrible deformity.  I would have aborted him if that proved true,  and I still stand by that.  So I understand the need for elective abortion.  But I also knew that I would be killing my living baby if I did that.  And women who elect to have an abortion also need to know that fact.

fairylover, I think what happened to you was horrible and I'm so sorry it happened to you. I wish we didn't have such evil in this world.

I don't believe its about men dominating women....again, that was sarcasm.

i just read the two posts before my last one thank you to those who support me it means more than you can ever know i am 17 now and this haunts me in so many ways emotionally physically unless you have been through it you HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THIS HAS DONE TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I don't understand all the sarcasm. Why say it if you don't believe it? I think that would be confusing to people. Just say what you believe.

The law does not agree that it is, in fact, a "baby." A "baby" is synonymous with living being that is capable of surviving outside of the mother's womb. An 10 week old fetus is not capable of living outside of the mother's womb, therefor it is not considered murder.

Moral this or that is irrelevant. It is a woman's choice. Period. We are not under any "moral" obligation to do what any one else deems "correct" when it comes to abortion.

fair enough April....you are right.

I believe that women have the right to do what they want when it comes to their body.
I believe that an abortion is a hard and sometimes traumatizing event.
I believe that women who have abortions should not have to feel like murderers or monsters,

ziggysgrl,  what was your post about, then,  exactly?     I would be interested,  seriously,  in hearing your philosophy without double talk and sarcasm.  What is your philosophy about abortion?   My guess is we might not be that far off.

Fairlylover,  God bless you.    Your story is very painful to read,  and prayers that you are able somehow to heal your pain.

thank you ziggysgirl0724 i feel alittle better i thought this was a bad place

Fairylover9, I'm very sorry you were put through all that and can't believe anyone could do that to anyone, let alone their own daughter. I hope you have the support you need to cope.

thank you RockRose thats very kind of you

RockRose- I think that abortion is definitely a touchy subject and not something to be entered into lightly.  I also do not like the idea of abortions as a form of birth control(ex, "I wont use a condom now, I'll just have an abortion later).

With that being said, I strongly believe that a women should choose what she feels is best for her body and her life.  I also agree that maybe some counseling would be helpful to some, but that too should be a choice.  I don't agree with people that say women should have ultrasounds showing them the "baby being sucked out". I am a mom of three, and I have been faced with abortion and chose against it.  its not a choice I would make for myself, but I do not feel that the choice should be taken away from other women.

I do feel that it is a woman's choice but only very early in the pregnancy.  Very few women who make the choice to have an abortion have an easy time of it - many end up in their own private hell of guilt afterward.  I personally could never do it but it is not my right to tell someone else what they can do.  Where I get very angry is when some people who are pro choice are also anti-birth control.  Let's not bury our heads in the sand and believe that young people aren't going to have sex.  Let's educate them appropriately and give them access to birth control so they don't get pregnant or sick and perhaps we can eradicate the majority of the unnecessary abortions happening today.

No not alot of support i guess it made me into what i am i do what i must to survive on the street and thats that my boyfriend abuses me evryday and thats just the life i am destined to live my dad made sure of that when he turned me into his personal ***** and sent me on those "special meetings" with his buddies and co workers now im a stripper and do things for money atleast i get something out of it now not him they used to pay him and i was always kept hidden and told if i told anyone at school that he would take me away and NO ONE WOULD EVER FIND ME
so i guess i found my destiny right

Totally,  Andi,  it's a woman's choice.

That's the law and it is as it should be.

I think I've posted this before,  but I want to post it again.

Women should completely have the choice to kill a living baby fetus if they choose to.    But let's all get real.  Yes,  it is a living baby.  A fetus is a living baby human.  People choose not to use those words because they decide not to acknowledge it.  Yes,  it is a living baby human,  who is totally and completely dependent on the mother's body to grow and mature.

Yes,  I am prochoice, and yes,  the woman has the right to kill her baby.  

I have an acquaintance whose baby had no skull.  They discovered that in ultrasound,  and although she was about as prolife as they come,  a doctor order the abortion.  She opted to kill her baby before birth,  and I totally and completely support her - thank God for modern science.

Until we can look abortion full in the face and call it what it is,  we can't make informed decisions about it.  It's killing a living baby.  Women should be able to kill their living baby fetuses if they choose.  But they need to look it in the face and know what they are doing,  and not come up with some mouth full of marbles mumbo jumbo products of conception disinformation.  

TrudieC- that is a valid point.  I cannot stand people who are against birth control because of their"pro life" beliefs.  So basically, everyone who has sex strictly for pleasure should be ready to pop out child after child.  

A LOT of girls i know slady do use abortions as a form of birth control and i bet most who do have abortions...do use it as such. i agree with dnikki0928 " ONLY if 1. The girl/woman is raped by whoever 2. The baby is going to be severly retarded or severe developmental issues as in they are not repairable and would create a very poor quality of life" in most cases...its just becasue they arnt ready for a baby...or get pregnnat too soon after having a baby just to get pregnant right away after an abortion!

fairylover9- your 17.  i thought you had to be 18 to even be a striper and why would you submit yourself to that. and your boyfriend abuses you.....its not really an o well about that. what your father did to you is horrible...but hes not you. your the one going and "stripping" and staying with an abusive boyfriend. what your father did...should make you strive for BETTER!,

I haven't read all the comments yet, so my reaction is to the journal only.

What?  Huh? Maybe I'm just not getting it. Call me naive. Can someone fill me in here? I'm a little confused with the part that pro life equals being disrespectful to women.

I thought there were other factors involved and none of them having to do with being pro life or pro choice.

fairylover,  are you getting any support in the real world?   Do you have any teachers,  friends,  friend's mothers, etc,  that you can lean on for help?  Reading your posts is so painful my stomach is hurting right now.  Who can you count on for help?

OK, lol......I am going to change the name to my journal.  I would delete it(for sake of it not being so misunderstood, and obviously, rightfully so) but I am enjoying the topic and the not too nasty debate.

I guess I should be arrested or fined when I use an antibiotic? I am, after all, killing a living organism within my body.

Good grief.

RR-

Why do we "have" to admit that we are killing a fetus for prochoice to be a true belief?  I dont get that....

If men carried and sustained life for procreation,this would not be discussed.  No stinking way would there be laws that were anything BUT prochoice if someone took a man's rights away in this form...

lol Andi..

RockRose
as i said above NO I DONT

you need to strive for better! first off you stripping is ilegal!

Killing organisms with antibiotics and killing babies are two VERY different things. But we all have our opinions.

grammy,  I don't completely get your question.  I'm not saying women have to sign or openly publicly admit they're killing their living baby,  but they do need education to realize they are killing a living fetus.  It's bizarre to me that women don't know this,  but I'm serious when I say I know women who have aborted their babies and they didn't know they were aborting living fetuses,  and now they are in horrible grief.  I don't know any real way to explain this because I think you'd have to be stupid to not know what pregnancy means,  but these women I'm talking about are not stupid.  They're totally and completely in denial at the time they terminated their pregnancies,  and would do anything to take back that decision.

Again,  I really don't get how you can have an abortion and not know you're killing a living baby,  but these otherwise intelligent women didn't seem to know that.

ROckrose...I agree with Grammy64...why do we have to admit to what we are doing...I don't get that???

Kim1989

So is what my dad did but that never stopped him

RR=

I honestly dont believe it.  I am sure you believe them as they are anguished now, but i think it is just a matter of maturity and realizing what they did and the consequences/regret....not NOT understanding it at the time.

i dont say abortions or terminating a pregnancy because to me...its killing your own child.

your right it is....but YOUR NOT YOUR FATHER.

your not even an adult and "stripping" and your with your bf who abuses you..you spoke like you do all these things because of your father

On that same train of thought....people take medication all the time to treat an illness or save their life (or sometimes negatively affect their life) without completely understanding what they are doing....It may be something they regret later, but certainly does not need to be 100% understood or else it makes it a bad decision or wrong....

kim1989
So if you were me you would have had the baby even though it could kill you in many ways and by the way i use protection and dont use abortions as birth control

Sorry-

Kim is posting to fairy and I was posting to RR.  Kim - We're confusing everyone!  LOL

Grammy,  I actually kind of agree with you.   One of the women who had an elective abortion was a sophomore electrical engineering major.   In my mind,  she totally knew it and chooses to deny.  On the other hand,  honestly,  she adores her children and seems completely honest with me.  I don't get it.

i dont think i would. you were raped by your father. i dont think i could have kept that child especially being 9.

im not talking about using abortions as a form of birth control when it comes to you..your not getting my point

RR-

Self-preservation....

yes grammy you are very much correct!~

WoW ....thats interesting ,if not harrowing ,guys ,you sure got fired up looking at those hunks in the super bowl..... Me too

i was wondering if anyone else was watching this thing as well! its been a pretty good 4th quarter

Kim1989
then what is your point other than that im breaking the law

Grammy - your self preservation response means . .. I don't get it.

I am so full of Guacamole,Chips,  beer and yelling men I certainly dont need to speak on this, but trust me I will tomorrow ,,,,when I have got my head together and try to figure what the heck was meant in the first place.

i said it like 3 times...you are not your father. dont use his bad behavior as an excuse for yours. better yourself and start striving for better

My Father!!!! trust me you would not have wanted to meet him??????

margypops- it was a strictly sarcastic way to say that women should have the choice to do whatever they want.  That by trying to take away their rights, we are essentially saying that women's rights don't matter.......

If you are asking me what I mean RR about self-preservation??

(She has to believe what she is saying/telling you - selfpreservation - or she would not be able to live with herself/DENIAL!)  BTW - I think I spelled that all correctly - LOL

umm...off topic but ZIGGYSGRL...i saw you had an Immunization Schedule up...how do i get one

I'm so with April on this one. I'm ProLife I think people should take responsibility for their actions giving the baby up
for adoption is a much better choice IMHO. I can only speak from experience in 1993 the girl I was dating for 3 yrs
chose to have an abortion because I was not responsible and was a  vicodin addict. It took me 20 yrs and a lot of  
Praying before I could finally forgive myself ( it still hurts so much to think about it ) But I do believe it is between
the couple having the Child and GOD to make the right choice. Just because we have people who call themselves
Dr's performing abortions doesn't mean we have to use their service's. If we chose adoption over abortion they would
have to start helping to cure people to stay in business. Dr's Always remember the Hippocratic Oath. I will neither
prescribe or administer a lethal dose of medicine to any patient even if asked nor counsel any such thing nor perform
the utmost respect for every human Life from fertilization to natural death and Reject abortion that deliberately takes
a unique human Life. ~ Hippocrates, ancient Greek physician (460 BC _ 370 BC)

ya the cop didnt mind last week he just wanted to use his gun and handcuffs listen i really dont expect you all to understand where im comin from you cant unless you have been there yourself but im gonna go to work now superbowl is ova time to go maybe i will chat with you all again sometime if i dont get caught by my man first

everyone- sorry that was directed to fairylover9 about fathers sorry margypops

cant not be real

Grammy-LOL

Kim, I honestly dont even remember and it was tricky...let me take a look. lol

ok please do i was all excited and checked under trackers..but its not there so i then got really lost

why cant it be real i cant beleive you would have that to say i have no reason to lie to anyone

OT:

zig, your baby girl is adorable.  I forget her name?


Jimi-

I work in the healthcare field in a peripheral position.  I thought MDs took the economic oath myself....

So I wanted to note that I got the sarcasticness (is that even a word?)  from the beginning!

And I'm reading through everyone's stuff, and then i'm constantly refreshing my pages because it's going way to fast for me ahaha!

Man oh man!

i didnt say what you had to say wasnt real...you just came out of nowwhere...express something really personal (most people wouldnt after apearing after 5 mins...and then what you said was horrible!

"ya the cop didnt mind last week he just wanted to use his gun and handcuffs listen i really dont expect you all to understand where im comin from you cant unless you have been there yourself but im gonna go to work now superbowl is ova time to go maybe i will chat with you all again sometime if i dont get caught by my man first"

its like you mock the fact your a minor and stripping and you dont care and then your like...if i dont get caught by my man first?!?!

Whoops sorryZiggy and  guys it was all that  food and good American fun..... now where are we ,is it half time in this scrap yet then I can get some words together...maybe

Ashiepooh- Thanks for getting it, lol...I was beginning to think that maybe i'm just deranged, hahaha.

Grammy-thank you very much!!!  She's a little goober.  Her name Is Adriana

ziggysgrl- send me a message when you figure it out

Ziggysgrl0724 - I read the title before I came and was like, "WHAT?" and then I read it and I was like "Ok got it!"  =)  But I must say I am getting a bit of a laugh out of some of this, and i'm sure it's probably bad that I am.  

Kim, I think fairylover just needs someone to listen to her and it was her way to ask for it. A lot of people react that way when they don't know how to seek help.

completely OT but i have to brag right now...

ADRIANA JUST NOW ROLLED OVER FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!!!  SHE IS ALMOST 5 MONTHS AND I WAS GETTING CONCERNED BUT SHE DID IT....YAY!!!!!!

Ok, back to business, lol.

Ashiepooh...

is that YOUR baby in the pic?  You arent due yet, are you?  Ive been on only briefly.  Did you have your baby?

what i meant was that my man doesnt catch me talking to people about what is going on in my life he thinks the money is great and if he found out i told you guys he beat me i would wind up in the **** hole

hes abusive...and is controlling...a man does not make you who you are. YOU make you who you are. he is no good

babypooh- i guess your right but i have my iffy feelings

Grammy64,

             I have to admit their are a lot of really talented good Dr's out there. You just have to do your homework
             before choosing a primary care physician.

Well and Wow and good for you all, good reading and interesting observations by all, what a smashing crowd you are I am so glad to be a part of your lives here on our forum. and I am not known for my sarcasm only for my super Wit.... LOL. I think we need a script writing with us starring , better than the House wives of Orange county , Atlanta county or New York City any time.. what say you

Yes, Jimi.  You are correct.  There are.  IMO - I think the $$$$ issue (not just for an indiividual physician but for medical facilities/hospitals/clinics) would so override the Hip oath in the matter of abortion.  They make way more $$$$ with legal prochoice than legal prolife.  

HEY MARGY!  Everyone knows I live and die by all those housewives shows (my VERY fave)...but otherwise a super idea!

Grammy,

           GOD Bless You :o)

**standing ovation for our resident goober, Baby Adriana**

Well done lil one!

I'm a goofy goober, yah. You're a goofy goober yah...."

Gosh darn Spongebob...

Gosh, I know I am coming in here late.... but my take is.. I loveeee the sarcasm.. hehe

I think women should have a right to do whatever they please, they are going to be the ones who live with the decisions they make. Whether it means they really regret it, or really believe it was for the best at the time in their life. The same way a lady, or man has the right to choose to drink and drive, do drugs, join the army, kill someone, buy a gun...... etc.. Who are anyone else to take those rights away from them?

Heck we bought a 4wd vehicle a few months ago and yes that may have been a very stupid mistake (not to me, to my husband..lol) but we have to live with the choices WE make!

That also isn't saying that anyone else can think whatever they want to about those people.. but geezus.... women's rights movement came through a long time ago.... people just need to get over it! IMO anyways.. lol

thank you pcarsey.  I am so glad you enjoyed the sarcasm!!!!!

look the bottom line is that as a pro choicer, I do not sing the praises of abortion.  Its not on my top ten list of fave things.  What I am saying is that its A WOMENS CHOICE!!! Right or wrong, thats it.....

I agree 100%! :o)

I agree its a womans choice, I personally do not agree with it, however, their is aways a circumstance, and we may not know what that circumstance is to the person who opted to abort. I do not agree with it as a form of birth control

IMO (again) I would think that a HIGH percentage of people who are prochoice actually oppose abortion for themselves or their loved ones.  i just wanted to point that out....

Yes I agree Lori, I too think that. I know I can say.... It isn't for me... but I can't hold it against anyone else.

Exactly Grammy.  When I was 19, and got pregnant, my then boyfriend told me either abort, or he was leaving me.  I loved him so much, but I couldnt have an abortion.  It just didnt feel right.  I am glad however that the choice was mine to make, and not something forced upon me because I had no choice.

oops..... I meant to say something to you too Luci, but hit the wrong button..

You are right, we don't know the circumstances why people do it. What I really hate is how the girls who do, usually get HAMMERED by lots of people without them even knowing the circumstances... and I would like to point out... it isn't anyone's business what those circumstances are.....lol

You know..... Scott and I were talking about this today along with the woman who has 100000 kids..lol It's funny that the very same people who has said that they agree that she shouldn't have aborted any of the children or whatever.. are probably the same ones who will complain when their money is being taken away to help support her and her ten million kids.... ahahaha

LOL pcarsey...seriously!!!!

I am not sure the pro lifers would be so happy if abortion was actually illegal and the money came out of THEIR pockets to raise all these children.

Oh yes...... my point.....lol

I agree, GOD does give us the freedom of choice but i can speak from experience and help to educate others so
hopefully they do not have to endure the pain that I went through. Believe me I went through some trials and
tribulations it hasn't always been moonlights and canoe's for me. We can learn from experience or education We can choose right or wrong but thats up to each and everyone of us between you and GOD.
  

I am another who is absolutely pro choice.  I am not however pro abortion, there is a difference.  Many believe that pro choice clinics counsel to have abortions, that is just not the case.  The counsel on the pro's and con's of all 3 choices so that the women involved can make the decision best for them.  I would never choose termination for myself, but I will not stand in judgment of anyone who makes what they believe to be the best choice for themselves.  And not everyone believes in life at conception.  Even medical Dr.'s debate when life actually starts, so I don't believe that those choosing an early termination need to admit or even believe they are killing anyone. And what about the rights of the mother?  Should a women that has been abused, raped or going to be the sole care taker for a child that will never have any quality of life be forced into the role of motherhood against her will?  I respect those of you that would not terminate under any circumstances, that is your choice and your right.  But please do not stand in judgment of others, at least not until you have walked in their shoes.

Oh, and by the way Ziggy, I love sarcastic humour, and I got it right away as well....

So, I just asked my brother( my GAY brother, lol)  Where he stands on this.  His ex girlfriend had an abortion once upon a time.  Not only an abortion, but a late term abortion.  He was devastated.  Even with all the heartbreak he has endured, he still feels it is a woman's choice to choose.  Just wanted to put that out there.

YAY ADGAL!!!!  Thanks so much!!!!!!  I still don't understand how someone can read that and actually take it seriously.

Grammy64 - yes that's my baby!  My newest one!  I had her on the 27th, and no I wasn't due yet.  I have a history of preterm labor, 34w3d's I had her.  But she is home and healthy as can be!

Pro-choice, pro-life?  What about pro-death?  Why not stop at abortion or even late term, partial birth abortion?  Why not go on to "hey, I really don't like how my kid is turning out, let's euthenize him/her, whatever"?  

So WHERE do we draw the line?  Seriously.  Oh, and like if we are raising our kids' generation to learn that abortion is a good "solution" to a "problem" and "helps the economy" as Nancy Pelosi wants us to believe... what are our kids who we don't abort going to do with us when we're 90 and in the nursing home?  Will they pull the plug or euthenize us because we're too much of a burden on them, make their lives too difficult, or are just an economic drain?  

Oh, and no man (aside from Jesus) will tell me whether or not to have an abortion.  God is whom I listen to.  You know those ten commandment things He (God the father) gave us.  Thou shalt not kill.  That one.  I also figure if someone is goign to have an abortion, it's God they will have to answer to at the end, not me or any other person on this planet.  Thankfully God is forgiving.  All of us do make mistakes. But, to keep silent on whether I am pro-life is not an option for me.  So, yeah, if you hadn't gathered from the rest of this message, I am pro-life.  

I too am pro life. and agree with 888mom. .the only difference is that I believe we will be held accountable as a nation or allowing it. And not standing up against it.  I also think there is enough education and ways to protect oneself from getting pregnant that abortion has become more elective than what is was intended for.Ok, back to the corner I go.

If someone does not agree with abortion, they should not have one.  Its very simple.

888mom is being ridiculous with her statement about euthanizing your child if he/she is "not turning out well", and making a mockery of a serious subject.

888mom- The whole >should our kids be able to pull the plug in our 90s< - that already happens in a much more subtle way.  

And, if "no man (aside from Jesus) will tell me whether or not to have an abortion" is how you feel, that makes you prochoice.  If you favor prolife legally, you are absolutely allowing this.

And Peek's first line - yes.

I have been apart of way too many of these debates and I think that you know that when you write one, you are going to anger some, therefore, you should expect comments from some of us.

I have also noticed that you seem to think that anyone that has a different opinion than yourself is wrong and the anti-christ, so I am not going to sit here an argue with you.

I am pro-life and you can think whatever you want to think about that.  I don't really care how you feel about me or my opinions anymore than you care what I think about you or your beliefs......

I have said that I think people are anti christ? Did I miss something?

I think I have been very nice throughout this whole journal actually......

OK, you are pro-life.......I am pro-choice.....nice to meet you.

When I was younger, before I had children I was absolutely pro-choice.  After I had children, I wasn't so sure anymore.

Then I went to work in a small urban middle school.  More than once we have had pregnant 6th grade girls.  They're 12 or maybe 13.  Often the baby is mixed race.  All those adoption ads in the newspaper want white babies.  Their pregnancies are high risk because they are so young.  There is increased risk to the mother and the baby.

In my school we have the multiply handicapped children of some of these teen moms.  Two have died of complications of their handicaps.

I'm not so quick to judge anymore.

Maybe you did miss something.  I don't know......  But you alway start contreversial journals and seem to think that anyone that has a different opinion than yourself is just terrible and wrong.  And that just isn't so.  Someone could say the same about you.  But I think you kind of do it on purpose.  It seems like you just get in the mood to fight or argue, so you start one of these contreversial journals.  I mean, what is the purpose of this journal really????  Obama got in.  He just signed an Executive Order so that we can help women in other countries receive abortions.  Nice....I don't believe in it, but my tax dollars can certainly pay for it.  So, he has no problem doing it here either.  I saw these debates going on during election time, but that time is over now and a liberal got in.  So, you should be very happy.......And not that you need a reason to write a journal either.  You can write what you want when you want.  It was a real question about the point of the journal.  I wasn't being sarcastic.  I was simply saying that you got what you want.

I mean, I guess that's really all......There really isn't anything that you can say to change my mind and I know there isn't anything I can do to change yours, so just agree to disagree.  That's normally how it has to go anyway right?  All of the other pro-lifers have said anything that I would have said already.

well,.... here comes ole' cow V....

Did I try one once? sort of (took some stuff when I thought I ended up pregnant at 18)....
Did I regret?.... yes....and no. I finished school, didn't marry who would have been the dad (thank GOD), and made 'what I think' was the best choice at that moment...
Did I lose a baby early in a pregnancy? YES. This marked me FOR LIFE. This was a VERY dark, painful phase in my life.... and:
Did that change my views? yes. I would NEVER abort a baby, even if he/she would come with defects. When I was pregnant with my little angel, I said I would do the test to find out if she/he was ok.... shortly after I lost her..... coincidence?? =S
Can I control someone else's life??? hell no! I cannot even finish controlling my own!
Do I think my friend living in Seattle that has had 3 or 4 abortions because she has unprotected sex when she is 'high' in drugs and then realizes that was not the 'best choice'....is RETARDED??? yes I do. Can I do something about it? nope, that's her life and she is the one who will have issues in the head due to that and many other ignorant decisions she's made.

Bottom line is: would I kill MY BABY (yep, baby.... even if it's a bunch of cells together...'with a beating heart', to me that's a BABY) because I am not 'prepared' to have one now? NO. But then again: I've gone thru S#IT in life that has taught me many things.....
would I kill a bacteria in my throat that's irritating the living cr.p out of me and making me ill? yes, honey.... I didn't conceive that one.....

So: I am pro-antibiotics, against killing MY OWN child.

But like I said: everybody else can do whatever the HELL  they want or can.... or please.... in the end: they will end up with the trauma.... not me.... and the baby will be better off, anyway.

Now, there are exceptions: rape would be one.... I am sorry this even exists in some women's life... I am truly sorry, I cannot even imagine that pain....

Who is Michele, Katy, TX referring, or talking to?

Ziggy!.... look what you did!! You started a controversial subject that make a lot of people mad! Shame on you!!! hehe..

The whole point when someone starts a journal is to either/and 1) let others know their opinion, without really looking for anyone to change their mind 2) get a good discussion started 3) look for others opinion.

It almost goes without saying that any kind of subject like this is going to start a big subject almost like who would make the best president, but I do not think she was being mean, disrespectful or anything to the like. She is simply stating her opinion. Everyone is going to have their own opinion whether they post it or not! I personally like the way she did it! She was being sarcastically amusing trying to get a point across. You MUST re-read the post again if you think otherwise. LOOK FOR THE SARCASM like she warned about.

Good for you Ziggy!!

I agree with pcarsey.  These types of posts are for thoughtful opinionated discussion.  Of course they are, and guess what?  That is exactly what happened here.  Both sides, thoughtful debate.  MK, Tx?  What is wrong with that?  I am confused.  It almost seems arrogant that you thought Zig was speaking directly to you?  I think in her JOURNAL she stated her thoughts and we all discussed it.  Nice!  Its called America.  

pcarsey

I was talking to Ziggy.  But, perhaps you are right.  I must admit, I am a bit cranky right now.  I just got out of the hospital because I am so sick due to my pregnancy.  I cannot seem to keep anything down without medication and the pharmacy didn't have mine, so I haven't had it all weekend.  I am back to work this morning sicker than ever, so a bit cranky.

People have a right to write what they want when they want.  I was simply stating that Ziggy always seems to start these journals with controversy and seems to be very rude to anyone that has a different opinion than herself.  That was all I was trying to say.  I mean, start the journal if you want, but be respectful to those that don't believe the same way that you do.  Especially, if infact, that was the reason that she started the journal to begin with (to get others opinions).  And if you're not respectful, MH will delete it anyway, so it is in everyone's best interest to be respectful anyway.

Um just for the record...I do not "always start controversial journals"....in all fairness, this is my second one.  That hardly constitutes as "always".

I started this journal because this is the way I feel.  Isnt that why people write journals?  To express themselves?  

And I am not rude.  I have been very respectful.  Did you read the whole thing?  Ultimatly I think the tone of this journal has stayed positive despite the controversial topic.  I really am missing something.  I am never rude when people disagree with my opnion.

grammy

I, in no way, thought Ziggy was speaking directly to me, but yet she was because I am pro life.  But your comment made me laugh anyway.  If you read above, I was stating that Ziggy just has a history of writing only controversial journals.  I guess that's her right, but it's also my right to comment on a public journal about it.  Because as you just said....Guess what??  It's America!!!!!

DUDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Why do you keep saying that I always cause controversy?  Not only have I only done this twice...but i'm not even rude when people share their opinions.  I dont get offended when peoples opinions differ from mine.  mI just restate my stand, in a not rude way!!!!  Are you confusing me for someone?  This is really bothering me....

and also, I don t do this to starts problems...I just want to write about my opinion.  if people responded, then they roesponded.  I can't control how other people take my view point on things.  I would be pro choice whether or not anyone commented on the journal.

Ziggy-  I totally got your sarcasm.   Now as far as some of the other comments-  I'm left wondering  WTF??????????

Thanks have 2 kids......I know what you mean.  i think some of the more recent comments are more confusing then my journal to begin with!!!  UGH.  maybe I should change the disclaimer in the headline........

Okay ziggy....Maybe you did write other non-controversial journals.  Maybe when you were pregnant or something.  I guess these 2 just stick out in my mind.  I honestly don't remember any others (that weren't controversial), but that doesn't mean they don't exist.  And even if you did only write controversial journals, that would be your right, which I have stated on more than one of my responses..........I was just giving my opinion like everyone else.

Have2kids,  I think everyone gets the sarcasm.  Just not everyone agrees with what she's saying.

Well I can only speak of my own feelins but I am not offended, mad, nor do I think I am going to change anyones view. I simply joined in the discussion and posted my own view on the subject. lol. I personally like good controversial discussions, after all it is these differences that make our nation what it is. Let us agree to disagree and not blame one another. We are simply different in our beliefs is all and MH is probably  as we speak contemplating quilling our right to disagree. lol

Michelle, the problem is not that your giving your opinion.  If I didn't want opinions, I wouldn't be the journal writing type.  The problem for me is that you are accusing me of doing something I don't do, and you are accusing me of being rude to people when I'm not.  You can sign about how your pro life all day and that wont bother me.  I will engage you in a healthy (non rude) debate about the subject all day.  I don't appreciate being made to look like something I'm not though.  Anyone that knows me at all on here will tell you that I may be somethings...but rude isn't really one of them.

Thank you RockRose and teko.  I don't seem to know how to explain myself, obviously as your can see from above comments (a little sarcasm), so thanks for doing it for me :)

ziggy,

Noted.  

But some could take sarcasm as being rude.  I mean, I can be sarcastic myself.  But it's usually when I am mad to tell you the truth.  

Everyone is different and sarcasm is just part of some people's personalities.  My husband has an uncle like that.  And I don't care for him simply because it can be hard to tell if he is joking or not, so he comes across as being rude to me, but my husband grew up with him and is used to him.  So, my husband doesn't see him the same way I do.  And since I don't know you personally, you can read a lot into something in writing that may or may not be there.

There, now, I hope I have explained myself.....

The thing I think is crazy is that the decision to have an abotion or not is based on the Supreme Court decision from Roe vs. Wade. That decision was based on a ruling of 9 people. 9 people!!!! Why do we keep voting for more government to intervene in our lives? The arguments above are ridiculous to me as we should be arguing to vote for these issues within our states and not based on one president to make an appointment to the Supreme Court (without term limits) to uphold the decision or not. Also, Roe vs. Wade was passed because the Supreme Court said that abortion is a fundamental right under the US Constitution, which was based on the right to privacy, NOT a right to do whatever you want to your body. It is scary to me that we have 9 people interpreting the consitution for all of us to follow...

Taking away the right to abortion, I firmly do NOT believe that women have the right to do whatever they want to their bodies when pregnant. Does this mean they can pump their bodies full of meth or other street drugs or drink themselves into an oblivion? Once those addicted babies come into the world, they are snatched away from the mothers based on the actions during pregnancy and may be subject to criminal prosecution.

Just my opinion. I can see all sides to this issue IMHO.

the idea of - if you don't agree with abortion, don't get one, doesn't work.

i can certainly understand the position of being pro-choice since i was of that opinion for a very long time.  i understand the position of having autonomy over your own body and ability to choose the course of your life.  

ok.  however, as a pro-choice person, i would think, at least, that you don't think that abortion is murder.  the fetus is not a life, life does not begin at conception, etc.  no one condones outright murder.

however, the pro-life position is that life does begin at conception, and that abortion is murder.  no one with a moral conscience can stand by and agree with state sanctioned murder.  therefore, not agreeing so don't get one doesn't work.  if i believe life begins at conception, then abortion is murder, and no one would sit silent while innocent and vulnerable lives are murdered.  do you see why that is not the argument that will work?

the only argument that can satisfy both sides is one that says life starts officially at X.  abortion is legal until X, because until then it is not murder.  so somehow we all have to agree when X is, and how we will come to that decision.

OK, I will make this even more controverial by throwing out something ,from the good book. So if you do not believe in it, your going to automatically disagree. But when John the Baptist came across Jesus while they were both in the womb, John the bible was said to leap with joy, leading one to believe that he knew who jesus was even then. Thus leading one to believe that life starts before birth? OK, OK back to my corner?

alikat--

Abortion (within the time limits set by each state) is legal in this country, and murder is not.  

So if you don't agree with the decision of the Supreme Court, which has held for so long now, then don't get an abortion.  

abortion is currently legal, because there is no consensus that life begins at conception, if there was it would not be legal, as murder is not legal.  the current ideology is that life does NOT begin at conception and therefore it is not murder, it is a procedure that the woman can choose.  

peek

and without going to the issue of abortion, just because the supreme court has interpreted a clause of the consitution, does not make something so.  interpretation means that there is more than one way of looking at something.  yes, abortion has been legal in this country for 30 years, out of over 200?  laws are always open to re-interpretation, that is their nature.  it used to be legal to beat your wife, it used to be legal to have children working in sweat shops.  the fact that something is legal doesn't mean it should or always will be legal.

Teko, here's another one but most people are going to dismiss it, I think.

“For YOU created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful I know that full well.” Psalm 139: 13-14

Since I believe in God, I believe that this says we are a new life from conception. I think if we only trusted God more we could come up with better ways of dealing with unwanted pregnancies like adoption, etc.

Several years ago there was a touching true story on TV about a woman who was raped while her husband was gone on a business trip. This man broke into her house and raped her. She became pregnant from this. She and her husband sat down and discussed what to do next. They decided this child should not suffer because of the sins of it's father. She had the baby. As the interview was going on you could see three blond haired little kids playing with an obviously half black little girl. The love in that room was amazing. This little girl had full confidence of her parents love. The parents did explain to her that her father did a bad thing, so she knew enough of the story. She was a loving, confident child, though. These parents were conservative born-again Christians and just felt that keeping her was the best choice. This is why I said if we could only trust God, I believe He always gives us a way out.

That is why there is separation of church and State.  

(Again, thoughtful and intelligent discussion happening here.)  

And that is why our country is doing so bad anymore, in my opinion. We threw God out.

Interestingly,  Laci's law (after Laci Peterson) makes it a crime - of murder - to kill a child in utero.  That's what it's called,  in the law,  a child in utero.  It's murder.  If you kill a pregnant mother you're charged with two murders under the law.

Here's the law,  enacted a couple years ago:

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/abortion/unbornbill32504.html

And that is why our country is doing so bad anymore, in my opinion. We threw God out.

Grammy, well said, and thus the root of all the confusion. Until science can prove otherwise the controversy lives on. People generally believe in science moreso than the creators word

i think that while many pro-life people come to that opinion based on religious beliefs, it isn't necessary to include those beliefs in a discussion about the legality of abortion itself.  

RockRose, that just shows you how crazy our justice system is. No wonder there's so much confusion. People still can't decide if it's a baby in utero or not. The interesting thing is, it seems to be a baby when it's convenient for some and it's not a baby when it's convenient for some. How double sided is that? Crazy.

Yes, I am pro-choice....YOU made the CHOICE to have sex.....now you live with your decision....

I agree there are extenuating circumstances...rape, incest, health of mother, health of baby...but just like everything else, people take it to the limit......late-term abortion, abortion as a means of birth control, etc.


How these people look in the mirror..I don't know...just my two cents.

Well I hope you's dont mind me joining this disscusion... I would like to say that I didn't belive in abortion..... ie unless  raped etc........ I had very strong thaughts on this untill recently.I love being a mother to my 5 yr old, and decided it's time to add to our family..... so in aug 08 we decided to ttc and to our suprise in sep 08 had a BFP, we had midwife visit  nov 08 and everything was fine... was so in love with this life we created had so many plans etc. Any- how we had trouble gettin my u/s date I ended up ringing  the hospital to make appointment my self, so it was at the end of nov........ dating u/s made us gestation 15+3 weeks..... cutting the story down the tec gave us bad news!!!! was sent to see specialist who said in not so many words that my baby  had  5% chance of surviving the next 2/4 weeks never mind full term........... due to oedema,increased nuchal translucency,Echogenic bowel,lungs!!! can u imagen the pain we went through... so he said I could go home and wait for this to happen or interupt the pregnancy. I was super ill from day 1 of conception and this choice we had  was just off the rictor scale in the end we had the abortion..........yes I said it...... the thaught of my unborn babys pain the suffering........our pain in the choice we had no controle over we could'nt let this go on!!! feelin every movement gatting more attached.........for the outcome to be the same.... so it's every women's choice to do what they think's right for them!!!!!

Interesting, alikat. It sure seems like pro-choice people are afraid of God. They're even afraid of discussing Him or even contemplating the thought of His existence. I wonder why that is? Maybe it's because it would make them see things they don't want to see. They don't want to admit there might be a God because they couldn't just go and do their own thing anymore.

“For a time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.  Instead to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”                  2 Timothy 4:3, 4

which means that i don't feel that it is necessary to that discussion of the legal merits not that i am telling anyone here not to discuss their religious beliefs.


rock rose
you bring up an interesting legal dichotomy, one that was discussed when i was in law school many times, and the resolution (at least amongst my study group at the time), was that abortion was a legal procedure that the mother could choose, however, when that choice is taken away from her, that is a criminal act.  however, it seems it would be a criminal act more akin to battery than murder, since life does not begin at conception (at least under the current legal climate).  in laci's case however, another resolution was that laci was near term and her baby was viable, and since mom had made the choice to continue to term, as evidenced by her actions, the baby was potentially capable of life independent of mother and therefore two charges.

in another case, just a few years ago, a man killed his pregnant wife and was not charged with two murders.  she was 5 weeks, and i think again the same argument was used but in his favor.  i don't remember if he was successful but it would be interesting to note.

I think (I dont necessarily agree) that it is considered life by most when the life is sustainable outside of the womb.  I think with science that is becoming earlier and earlier.  I know years ago when I came into the healthcare profession no child lived outside the womb before 27 weeks.  Now, I think it is considerably less.  I think if science continues to advance, maybe many years down the road science and religion will come into synch with life beginning at conception and a baby will never need a womb.  

JIMO

Ali- Also correct.  I think religion clouds the position of pro-life.  Also, IMO

Laci Peterson was murdered by her husband.  She was nearly at full term with her baby.
She was not someone who found herself pregnant and made the choice (legally) to terminate her pregnancy within the guidelines of the state she lived in.
Big difference between that case, and legal abortion.

And Alikat, if you think abortion did not exist prior to 30 years ago, you are wrong.  It was just illegal, and women as well as their fetuses died as a result.  As will happen if it is ever made illegal again.  

It is not legal to beat your wife.  It is legal to have an abortion within the guidelines of the state you live in.  One has nothing to do with the other.  I do not see your point there.  

alikat, Why not? if that is what we base our belief on? Why does the subject of faith intimidate  people? I still cannot agree that my ancestors swung from trees by their tales either but some people do.I am simply stating why I believe what I do and it cannot be separated.  Birth control is given freely,, yet abortion continues to rise. I dont get it! So you have moral, legal and religion fighting with each other, hmmm what is the anser? That comes from within each of us. Or does it?

Wow, alikat, you really ARE afraid of God. I thought this discussion was open for all? Isn't that what Ziggy said? Didn't she say she wanted to hear all opinions? But yet, whenever you bring God into the picture then all of a sudden people don't want to talk about God. Again, that might make people face things they don't want to face. They can't just go and do whatever their selfish desires want anymore.
To me, when someone is THAT afraid of God that you can't mention His name, well, that tells me a lot.

We're all adults. We should be able to discuss the possibility of a God and what He might think about all of this, shouldn't we? When you refuse to even consider it, like I said, that tells me a lot.
I thought this was a free country? Freedom of speech and all that? I guess except when you talk about God. Interesting. Very interesting.

Peek,  it doesn't really matter who Laci was in this discussion - the reason I posted that is because it is in fact now considered double murder to kill a woman who is pregnant if you know she is pregnant.  That goes for women who have been raped,  incest,   or whatever the situation is.  The murderer can be her husband,  boyfriend,  stranger,  whatever.

Under the law,  murdering a woman who is pregnant is double homicide.  It doesn't matter who Laci was in this point.

Religion clouds the position of pro-life? Oh my gosh, ha ha ha ha!!! I can't believe I just heard that!!!!

peek,
i never said it didn't exist.  i said it wasn't legal.  it is not currently legal to beat your wife, but it has been legal in many states in the past.  slavery used to be legal too.  

teko
i don't say you shouldn't feel that way, but if you are trying to engage someone who doesn't share those religious beliefs, they will not hear beyond scripture.  they will see the debate as purely religious and feel that they are being over run by a religious belief they do not share.  not only that, but religion does not really have a place in leading legislation. yes, in fact, many of our core moral and etical beliefs come from religion, but this country is a country of diverse religious beliefs, and there is a separation of church and state.  legislation is not driven by religion.  

I am just going to say this to those that are bringing religion into this- This journal has managed to stay up for 160+ comments and I do not want that changed.  If people do not want to discuss religion as part of their argument that is their right, and if the religious thing gets too out of hand, i will delete the comment before it ultimately get my entire journal deleted.

April

I am not afraid of God.  I think you have completely misunderstood me.  I am pro-life and an active and practising Catholic.  

Sorry alikat, I thought you sounded like you were pro-choice. Sorry, my mistake. I haven't had enough coffee this morning. :)

I expressed myself pretty well, I think and yet, I have offended even those who share the same beliefs! I will respectfully check out of this debate and let you continue.
:)

Alikat,  I think I remember the case of the woman whose husband killed her while she was very early pregnant,  and I believe he wasn't charged because they couldn't prove he knew she was pregnant.    It hinges on that the murderer has to know the woman to be pregnant.   Intent, I guess is what that deals with.

It's an incredible legal dichotomy, you're right,  and I can't even grasp how the two can exist in the same country.  Either it's a child - and thus murder - or it isn't,  and thus abortion on demand. To be able to legally kill your child by paying someone to do it,  vs.  have someone kill your child without your consent - one act being completely legal and one act being the highest crime - murder - is schizophrenic.

In my opinion.

But then,  I'm prochoice through all of this so that probably sounds schizophrenic also.

II think the confusion surrounding abortion has been revealed on many levels here today. As I stated previously, until science can define when life actually begins, we will continue to have these issues. I stand in judgement of no one, just the act itself. I am ashamed it is legal. My moral side has problems with that based on my own beliefs. It has been real guys, but some of us has gotta work today. Good debate ziggy. C ya guys.

Sorry alikat, I really am. I'm very tired this morning. Please don't feel like you have to leave. I'll leave. I think I need more coffee! When I'm tired I tend to say things without thinking them through. I will respectfully leave you ladies to continue on your discussion. Peace! :)

teko,  the sperm is alive and the egg is alive.  Sometimes,  sperm die or eggs die.  We do know that and use those terms freely - there is no shrinking from calling the sperm alive,  and the egg alive.  

Also,  the embryo is alive.  They die sometimes,  and we freely say the embryo died before implantation,  etc.  It's a concept we all get.

They are alive even before conception.  

The tricky part comes in when we decide we have to TREAT them as if they are alive.  We all know they are alive,  we just would rather not have to deal with that little aspect when we want to decide who has the right (if anyone) to kill them.

Okay here I am guys, sorry about my flippancy yesterday about an important subject, ,I should not have come to the PC once I had I was hooked, I had a couple of drinks watching the Game and listening to a lot of screeching and yelling by a few mad Men , well thats my story and I am sticking to it, I have a good size head ache today, booze does not agree with me. I am pro choice ,having said that , I went through this quite a few years ago and know I now wish I hadnt done it , it is one of the things you do regret doing, however ,ultimatly I really believe we have to have control over what we choose to do with our bodies and our lives, I am left with the regret , that never goes away I have accepted that I made that decision ..then.. the person I am today would not have had an abortion..

how did this post go from being disrespectful to women...to abortions?

everyones not going to agree on the topic of abortions. we all have different views. and everyone for the most part....make good points.

I think the reason there is confusion with religion  in this particular post and why I say that religion clouds the position of prolife is that there is separation of church and state.  And, yes, you can believe that you just *saw/read* that.  Not everyone who is religious shares your religious belief, or you, theirs for that matter.  Thus, religion cannot be represented as one side to this.  Just because someone is prochoice does not make them non-religious.  There are 80 gazillion interpretations of the bible.  

Why keep God out of it?  Abortion is a moral decision.  And with morality comes God.  If you are pro-choice then you may feel that it is not a life and God forgives.  If you believe life starts at the moment of conception then it is against God. "thou shalt not murder."   Isn't that the way we live?  

I think that is the main problem these days.  God has to be left out of everything....maybe if we brought HIM back into our discussions maybe there wouldn't be some much animosity in this world.

What a obnoxious people are we to think we want God left out of everything, while He is the reason we all exist.

Many are not religious...I, myself, am not very religious either,...but I do believe in a higher power that I call my God.

Rockrose,
I'm not sure i understand, Yes, i agree that sperm and eggs are both living things... but much like (and I may be wrong, honestly i dont know much about pregnancy or abortion... ) but are they not living things much like a flower or bacteria? living things.... but not yet "beings"?

Cause if we're saying that they are living... would it not be wrong from a pro-life point of view to wear condom? to take birthcontrol pills?

Lol. this is really just a question, i really dont know enough about this to defend either side of the argument, and certainly cannot defend it, from neither a scientific nor religious view.... =P

Shara,  I understand your question,  and it's interesting.     The question is,  is the embryo alive,  and yes certainly it is.  But that doesn't mean we can't have the right to kill it.  We have every right to kill our other healthy cells - you can do breast reduction,  circumcisions,  etc.,  other things that kill perfectly healthy human living cells.   We are under no obligation - at all - to respect and protect all those living cells.   Nor should we be.

My point here,  was that as a society we have decided to say ask "when does life begin" as if we have lost our minds and don't acknowledge it is alive.    A better question is "when is an embryo entitled to the rights of a human being"?  When,  along the process,  does the embryo deserve the protection of our laws that protect human beings?

Laci's law says at conception.  Laci's law defines killing the baby (termed child in utero) as murder,  punishable by the death penalty.

The whole thing is a confusing muddle,  I just really can't understand how we can have a law that calls killing the embryo homicide,  when we allow abortions.  Doesn't match.

having read through all thr replies ..... The sarcasm dissappeared very quickly !!! !!!! But Fathers rights in decission hasnt raised its ugly head. I had the pleasure/fisfortune of driving a VICTIM to get an abortion  - now I dont know what I am PRO/ANTI and everything above dont help me with what is a MORAL delliema

Not alive, RR. the term is "viable" and it is not considered a "viable" fetus unless it is beyond 23 or 24 weeks. An egg is not capable of creating life alone, neither is a single spermatozoa. A fetus is not capable of sustaining life without its mother. It is very clear, I am failing to see what the issue is. A woman is taking responsibility for her actions by getting an abortion. I would rather her do that than complete abuse her body and fetus in utero, deliver in a trash can and walk away to leave the baby to die. Or worse yet, bring it into a marriage where neither cares, the child is neglected or abused, and resented every day of its life.

And for the record, I sincerely hope my children pull the plug before sticking me in a nursing home. We just passed the Death with Dignity here in WA and i do feel that as a society we are doing the right thing. If you think it is any different globally, you are mistaken. Pick up Anthropology books and Sociology books, you will find that these practices have been going on since the dawn of time. Only difference is now the mother doesn't die, which is a huge stride.

There have been legal debates across the courtrooms of our country to determine when it can be considered "murder" in cases of pregnant women and their unborn. The legal community, whom we allow and trust to make the laws in  our country, have deemed that to mean a being capable of sustaining life outside of the womb.

I cannot help but find it funny that those who are pro-;life are the ones to sling the insults and openly say the reason they attacked "one of their own" was because they thought the other was "pro-choice." Seems the pro-choice side has agreed that their concern lies with the woman's right to choose, not the right to force a woman into a potentially life-threatening position.

Classic.

Interesting how people keep pointing out the "separation of church and state" when debating the whole abortion view.... and yet, was the United States actually founded as a non-religious, strictly secular nation? Not according to each state's constitution! All 50 states in the United States acknowledge God in their constitutions:

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama ... invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ...

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ...

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government ...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ...

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe ...

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty ... establish this Constitution ...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...


Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance ... establish this Constitution ...

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings ...

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors ...

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government ...

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution ...

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution ...

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of Kentucky, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties ...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ...

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine ... acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction ...

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty ...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity ... and devoutly imploring His direction ...

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings ...

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work ...

Missouri 1945, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ... establish this Constitution ...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ... establish this Constitution ...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ... establish this Constitution ...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience ...

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors …

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ...

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings ...

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for ... our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those ...

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common ...

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ...

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance ...

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island ... grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing ...

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South Carolina ... grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution ...

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience ...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God ...

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we ... establish this Constitution ...

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ...

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator ... can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other ...

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution ...

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia ... reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ...

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility ...

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution ...

*************************
That being said, I guess I fall between the cracks (a moderate) on my view on abortion.  I would basically say I am "pro-life", however, I do think there are some instances (as others have mentioned) when it is acceptable-- ie: danger to mother (including if the mother is too young), or if the child has major deformities which would compromise quality of life.-- but I do not think that it is right to use as a means of birth control.  I seriously doubt that anything anyone says on here will change another's opinion.

First of all....love the sarcasm.

One of the first things I want to say is this:   JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE PRO-CHOICE DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE PRO ABORTION.

Second...my husband fought for my freedom of speech and my right to voice my opinion, so I intend to use it.  If you don't agree with what I have to say...Good for you!  You have that right!  You're not going to hurt my feelings by not agreeing with me.

I am pro-choice and darn proud of it.  I am NOT pro-abortion.  Women who sleep around and use it as a form of birth control...shame on you (in my opinion).  I don't agree with that at all.  And it's my right to say that.  

The thing is, I don't think anyone should have the right to take away someone's choice about what happens to their body.  If a man had some medical issue, such as prostate cancer, and the government wanted to take away his right to remove his prostate or something (don't know how that works really, just trying to use an example)... the whole world would be in an uproar.  

Carrying a child and being a mother is not a decision to be made lightly.  And if a woman feels that she should not go through with a pregnancy then that is her choice.  That being said, I again don't PERSONALLY agree with women who sleep around and use it as a form of birth control.  That's unsafe and unhealthy and irresponsible. But that's my opinion.

Women who are raped and choose to have an abortion...more power to them.  I don't know if it's changed but I know that in many places, it can be INCREDIBLY hard to report a rape if the rapist was your husband.  YOU CAN BE RAPED BY YOUR HUSBAND.  And I think that it should be legal to abort a baby in ANY case of rape.

Also, if you find out that your baby will have some terrible problem (tae-sacs, CF, mental disabilities, etc) and you choose to terminate, I can't think badly of that.

If a woman accidentally gets pregnant and it's a risk to her own life (women with diabetes, or cancer, etc) I can't look down on that either.

It's a woman's choice!

No this does not make me a bad person. No it does not make me a bad mother.  yes I am still a Christian.  

That's my story, I'm stickin' to it.

lol
That was my next question. I've read almost every post on this from the beginning but now i understand why it's so confusing! lol even the law is contradicting itself!!

These are all really good comments being posted and i really enjoy how they can be discussed in (generally) such a mild manner. I think in many places this post would have already turned into a full blown, harsh and acccusing debate... almost as soon as it was posted, actually.  

I'm gonna go get more coffee, put the dogs out and then keep on enjoying these posts!!

Andi
What is death with dignity?

well.. what a debate.  I am pro-life..  Unequivically...  You have a choice when you have sex.  either have sex and risk getting pregnant or don't  it is simple..     However if you are raped or a case of incest.  I do feel the decision should be yours..  But if you ahve consentual sex you give up that right to chose..  just my opinion..  I will not debate it as I was a champion debater in college and I expressly pick this topic when allowed to..  So I consider my self a semi professional at it and since you are unarmed I will not debate with you..  Just trying to be funny..  everyone has a right to their opinion its what makes the world wonderful.

I just want to mention that even though people believe in God, they may not necessarily believe in the Bible as the "word of God", which most of the religious posts above are quoting. I am sure this is going to cause a rutgus but there are many religious viewpoints other than Christianity and people's beliefs about God. Many of our forefathers that signed the US Constitution were Deists, better known today as Unitarians, so when mentioning God, doesn't necessarily mean Christianity and therefore the separation between church and state is church as an organization and state.

tbeards-

See my post above.  We are saying the same thing...  I with ya..  

Andi,  the term "viable" means when can the baby live outside the uterus.    I really am talking about alive,  as in the classic question "when does life begin"?

Viability depends completely on our technological capabilities,  so it doesn't seem like that is a very good standard to use when deciding a philosophical question of human rights.  Two generations ago the age of viability was probably about 32 weeks,  in two more generations my guess is babies will be able to be gestated without a human uterus.

mrspace- VERY WELL SAID!!!!

Before we ratified the Constitution we amended it to protect our religious rights.  Whatever beliefs the framers held personally, they were clearly aware of the danger of government establishment of religion and governmental interference.  Many states might not have ratified the Constitution if it did not contain the Bill of Rights.  Personally, I like it like that!

In which case this would be a "moo" point...my fellow cows will understand the joke ;-)

Death with dignity is the right to die with dignity,generally by a lethal cocktail when you are at a point in your terminal disease process that the suffering is unimaginable. This is not something taken lightly and it requires quite a few hoops, but it enables a person to die on their terms. I have witness many die horribly painful deaths from bone cancer with staff withheld morphine, afraid of slowing their respirations, so they died in a great deal of pain. I have seen patients with loads of pain meds, still in horrendous pain.

This law enables them to end their pain in a peaceful and dignified way. Though I imagine the pro-lifers are against this one as well.

Oops! How did that happen? I could pass it off as being so passionate about this issue I had to make sure y'all saw it ;-)

Ziggy-I wouldn't complain if you deleted a few of those...

Wow, posted twice somehow without even trying!  The computer is behaving strangely today.  Sorry for the double post...

Right on top of that Andi.

Yeah...I don't think the Death With Dignity thing would be kosher for pro-lifers....people that want to die(because of terminal illness) should have the right to live...even if that means it is against their will.....

Sam here, JD. Mine popped up 3 times!

Ughh, I meant "same" here, lest I be brow-beaten for the misspelling :-)

ok so i read half way down &got the jist of the way the conversation was going. Its amazing how passionate people get about a subject and i do have to admit i do like to see passion! Ziggy i got the scarcasim and found it rather amusing and actually a very good point!

I am pro-choice because like others have said above

because girls are raped they should have to suffer more and keep there attackers sporn?! NO WAY!
A baby that is so ill &cannot have a proper life mentally/physically and wouldnt get the right support should have to live because his mother had no choice but to make him suffer more.
A realtionship that has broken down so badly the young parents hate each other, the mother should have to have the baby ruin the fathers life and her own and support herself &her little one on basically nothing.

so what about my case I suffer from PCO mildly and at risk for m/c until 16wks in any pregnancy i will ever have. I have no money coming in (yes a secure loving relationship) but not engaged or married. No home of my own, no job just a student trying to make a better life for myself to get a good job! im not entitled to any goverment money or benefits as im a student! what do you think about that one???? ......................




Well the other side to it is i had a cyst on my womb and my baby would have dies once the cyst burst causing infection &possibly my life so i made my choice and had a medical abortion at 12weeks. Part of me doesnt regret it, part of me misses Sky so much my life is empty! The way i see it i have been given the beautiful part of founding out i can get pregnant but the chance to do things the right way... money, job, a home, chance for her parents to be married etc.

who is anyone else to tell me what to do with my life or anyone to tell anyone else what to do with theres! no one knows what goes on behide closed doors! If your pro life i know you have your reasonsand i can respect that all us pro-choicers ask is for consideration &the same support we would give you!

right ive had my vent  take care ladies xxx

As i said before, i'm not in a position to argue either side on this... HOWEVER...
I do think that It is either right, or it is wrong, in our personal opinions. If someone thinks it is wrong, then it is wrong in all situations, i dont think you can say it's not ok to "kill" a baby under circumstances A,B and C but it is ok under circumstances X and Y. It is definitly a moral decision.

I got pregnant while i was on the pill AND we used a condom, I was younger and had been with my boyfriend for a year, it was maybe the 3rd time we had sex, i knew what the chances were, i was careful as heck and still, got pregnant. When i told my boyfriend, he wanted me to get an abortion, freaked out, screamed, yelled... really flipped out. Within 10 days, i was moved out of our apartment, in my own apartment and getting ready to have that baby. I lost it a little while after that, and still to this day think to myself "oh, she would have been 3 now..." or "oh, i would be going to this dinner holding a little baby..."

I think women who have abortions suffer enough from the whole experience (generally) For most people i would imagine it's a terrible decision to have to make and i think under normal circumstances the reasoning is that it is better for the baby to not be born, for whater the individual reasoning may be.

This comment is going to get ragged on alot, i believe.
I personally have a hard time comming down on women who have abortions. While we live in a society that euthanizes hundreds of thousands of animals a day, I don't think it is "morally wrong" considering the society we live in. I Honestly think that the society we live in has VERY selective morals. I think it's ridiculous that we prioritize human life over any other kind of life.

If this was my post saying "I cant get over the fact that the vet just did a C section and euthanized 6 beautiful puppies that were due in 2 days" it wouldnt have gotten more then a few responses saying how terrible it is... but the fact is, that we value human life so much more then any other kind of life...... anyway... morally, in this society, i dont think it's wrong to have an abortion...

That being said, i would never have an abortion, I dont think it's right to end a life (I dont care what science says.... once it's growing in me, it's alive enough for me).... but I dont think it's right to end ANY life just because they are an inconvinience!!

Be gentle with me, This is a very uneducated OPINION on this matter =P  as a matter of fact, i'm just thinking outloud...

Andi, I made a mistake and I apologized for it. I guess you never make mistakes?
I get passionate sometimes, too, at my beliefs, but I guess that's not ok because they don't line up with your beliefs.
I could say you have classic behavior, too, as a pro-choice person.
I guess we're all classic! At least we understand each other.
'Bowing out again"

April - not saying this in a mean way, but just curious what "classic" behavior of pro choice people you are refering to.

Shara-It is a good point you have made and I think that anyone who slams you for it knows they are in the wrong.

This debate isn't about changing minds, they never are here. It is simply about people sharing their views.

mj- thank you very much for your input and for sharing your experience with us.  I very much agree with what you said.  And i gotta say that I appreciate you getting my "sarcastic humor"

RockRose apoligies for spelling lol :) x

Ziggy, she said I was displaying classic pro-life behavior by bringing up religion and I've just noticed that pro-choice people display classic behavior of NOT wanting to bring in religion. That's all.

What in the world are you talking about, April?

Never mind, it is not worth my time.

I don't care if religion is brought in.. I am very pro choice...I just would rather it stay out on this particular journal to avoid the debate getting too heated and ultimately deleted.  

Wow, death with dignity.... that's been up in the air for a while, i think it's a good think, personally. I've seen many members of my family suffer for months, drugged out of their minds to ease the pain, just waiting to die... I think that's a very logical law.

Wow, I missed all this because of Super Bowl.... Hope nobody minds my two cents worth either. I was only offended by the comment made early on that ppl that have abortions are selfish. Many ppl anguish over the decision, indeed most ppl do. And the anguish with it for the remainder of their lives. It's only the few that use abortion as a way of birth control. Just like the few that break the rules are the reason all are punished. I cannot beleive that pro-life ppl beleive it's ok to abort because you were raped or eleven years old. If you beleive it's murder when you are 25 and happily married circumstances don't change the fact that the living cells are killed in both instances. You may have more empathy for the 11 year old but those living cells are just as alive as they are in the 25 year old.

Do we not all realize that government has way too much control in all our lives? What gives them the right to tell a woman what is right for her and her body. Are we not all sick to death of the abuse and killing that is happening to our living children?  I tell you if given a choice to be aborted at 6 weeks or spend three or five short years in a living hell being abused and neglected, I vote for the abortion. And if it is made illegal we will have more cases of abuse and neglect and if they survive many will go on to abuse and neglect their children because that is all they know.

And as said before if men were the sex bearing children there would never have been a law one way or another. Men have choices, like when they walk out of the mother's life and never look back. Who is left to care for and support pregnant mother or that child or children? Men already exert their choices.  

It's obvious I am pro-choice. Government should never have the right to decide what is right for a woman or inflict their views on them. It's a decision that has to be made between two ppl and their God. There is no law that states we all must be mothers but that is exactly what pro-lifers want, among other things, ramming their religious beliefs down other women's throats.

I personally would not choose abortion but that doesn't mean I have a right to make someone else's decision. I also have a huge problem with second or third trimester abortions and I think in most cases never should their be a late term abortion. So after all I may be on the fence on but I will always believe that government does not belong in my uterus.

I cannot help but find it funny that those who are pro-;life are the ones to sling the insults and openly say the reason they attacked "one of their own" was because they thought the other was "pro-choice."

That's what I was talking about, what you said above. I didn't think I was slinging insults, if anything I've been feeling for awhile now, Andi, that you just mock my faith.
It doesn't matter. I'm so tired today that I'm probably being grouchy today. Sorry, folks. When I'm this tired I don't even know what I'm saying half the time and that can get dangerous. Didn't meant to upset anybody, though. Peace.

Tuckamore - I couldn't agree more with what you have said.  I feel the same way about abortion/abuse of unwanted children.  So many children are born that are unwanted  A lot of these children are abused and neglected, and sometimes killed.  it is horrible.  A lot of people say "how did this happen"....it happened because someone who probably shouldn't be having babies for one reason or  another decided not to have an abortion.  Do people even realize how many cases of child abuse, child murder there would be if abortion was illegal?  It would be mind boggling.

I would like to tell you all "pro lifers" out there a story.

A little girl who goes to a local school here was repeatedly  brutally raped by her father, her mothers boyfriend and a babysitter all throughout her life. She ended up pregnant at the age of 9. She was a small girl, probably malnourished,  and the doctors told her mother that it would most definitely kill her to even carry it let a lone have it.(want to mention-- the whole thing about her still living with her mother is just BS anyways, the mother said she had no idea.. yeah right but that is another story)... By the time her mother took her to the doctors she was a several months pregnant!  Her insides were so messed up from being raped so many times that there would just be no way. The mother was TOTALLY against abortion. She said they would take their changes and she could have a c-section if nothing else. This little girl was tormented by the pains and sickness of being pregnant at such a young as by only god knows who, on top of still not ever recovering from the fact that she was raped numerous times. She could not deal with it, her mother would not let her get an abortion.... she eventually ran away, she left her mother a note...she tried to "get rid of the baby" on her own because she didn't know what else to do.... AT NINE YEARS OLD!!!!!!!! she couldn't take it. Physically, emotionally, morally.... none of it! She could not understand what was happening with her body, why she had this baby growing in her.. etc.... she tired to get it out! She pushed and pushed until she ruptured something, then she poked a coat hanger up inside of her.... and bled to death! I'm not even going to continue with this story......


I would really like to know you all's take on this event...... should she have endured all the trauma carrying and having this baby..... or should her mother have let her abort it??

Your answers will most likely give an idea of the kind of person you really are....

Pcarsey. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but this story is sad. The nine year old's mother was probably unwanted and abused as a child. And so the pattern of abuse and neglect continues.....

Sadly, pro-choice will not halt these very sad stories. But there will be more of them if ever the government determines woman must be mothers. Just think, that nine year old may have very well been forced into the situation she found herself in if this was not a pro-choice society, regardless of her mother's wishes.

If carrying the baby would have killed her, then it would have killed the baby too. So yes, the baby would not have survived either way, so why let 2 people die? this seems like a very cut and dry situation to me.

I dont understand how the mother left the clinic with a nine year old daughter who is pregnant from either her own father, or her mother's boyfriend. You would think that someone would have stepped in with a "WTF" and made sure that the girl was removed from her abusive situation.

I couldn't agree more Tuck! The point that I am trying to make is.... there are very good and valid reasons to some circumstances involving abortion. Just because I am pro-choice, doesn't always mean I am pro- abortion either. But when people bring religion into it, They are the one who are afraid of God, because I seriously do not think "God" would ever say, better luck next time kid, but you are going straight to hell for murder.

wow...

Pcarsey.... I think you summed that up VERY nicely!!! =)

Seriously pcarsey......I would think someone would have a hard time arguing with what you jsust said!!!!!

Yes, there are some circumstances and exceptions, but most cases do not involve those circumstances and wrong is wrong whether you fear God or not, in my opinion.

but if WRONG IS WRONG then that does not leave room for whatever you deem as an "exception".  So what you are saying id that the nine year old gets a "pass"...who issues this proverbial pass and who gets to say who is worthy to receive the pass to to do the wrong??  A wrong is a wrong is a wrong..you kind of contradicted yourself with that statement babypooh

most cases do not involve those circumstances for sure..... BUT there are SOME cases that do...... and even if it just one case... that is one case that is very justifiable! IMO!

Like I said, there are few exceptions and sometimes people try to twist something to fit their idea and justify it so that it won't be wrong. That's my opinion.

The whole point is.... people are pro life for their own personal reasons as well as the people who are pro choice are that way for their own reasons.... leave god out of it..... because when you bring in religion... well now, that opens up a whole other stem of questions and reasoning. When you bring religion into it, you are really opening yourself up to look like a hypocrite, because if you have an opinion one way or another then you are being judgmental..... and there is only ONE judge........ to most christians anyway....  

It isn't either pro life or pro abortion.... I am PRO CHOICE.... meaning.. I do not believe it is my right or anyone elses to tell any woman what they may or may not do with their body.... pregnant or not.

I am pro-life because of my religion AND personal choice. There are of course special circumstances. But I don't judge anyone, I just gave my opinion.

There are some very good points being made here. I can see all sides of this issue however, I choose to take a stand on the side of whht I believe. That is not to say that everyone will agree with me. pcarsey that is a truly sad and tragic story and I am sure their are others. With that said, would you be willing to be the one to end the life of an unwanted anything, human, dog, cat or bird.I do not mean by agreeing it should be legal, but actually do it yourself? No? me either. It is easy to say it is ok as long as we are not the ones performing the act. By not doing it ourselves leaves us innocent in our beliefs? Only god knows why something so tragic is allowed to happen but what about all the others that are a mere inconvenience.

It is easy to say it is ok if you leave religion out of it I guess. But he is the one that said to not take anothers life. I am not telling anyone what to do or not do with their bodies. I speak for the most innocent, the unborn. Whatis their crime? Leaving religion out of it, what is their crime that deserves the penalty of death?

OK, why should a mother who is not ready for the burdens of pregnancy and a child be punished with having her life changed forever in away that she does not want?

teko- I will say that it would all depend on the situation. I can not say right now that I would or would not. I do know.... that if that had been my daughter, there would be no room for questioning the what ifs! I would definitely choose for her to have an abortion and make darn sure that she would never ever look to it as killing a baby or another human being!

As for women who use it as birth control, well that is their choice. Same goes for those using the plan b method. However, there are circumstances where women just find themselves in a tough spot, therefore chose what is best for their current situation.

What I am saying is that in "MY" opinion, no one has the right to tell a woman that the decisions she has made is either right or wrong. Not saying you (not you YOU, you in general) can't say.... well I don't agree with your decision, but for them to tell that woman that it is right or wrong is just........ well...... wrong! And if that person is the same ones who claim to be a Christian... well..... that makes themselves hypocrites!  

I think anyone has a right to put anything in a journal ....if it makes some people mad, well then, they should be able to express their opinions.  

If I would have started this journal.......I would have med-help 1/2 way up my colon.........

I have nothing to say regarding this journal.......I don't get it?......it's odd......and I have no interest in responding.  Fight on for your Rights!!!..........

nauty..........

and I will only accept "you shouldnt be having sex if you dont want a baby" from people who have NEVER had sex strictly for pleasure.

lol ziggy!!! Yeah!

Um nautyone....if you are not going to respond on the journal then what is it exactly that you just did?  Are you trying to insinuate that Med help is playing favorites?  I believe this journal is still up and running for the simple fact that people have not gotten ugly on it.  So far nothing but healthy debating...so that's why Med Help isn't up my, uh "colon".

Well, like I said earlier, my view is based on my beliefs and also a personal moral choice. You cannot pick and choose and one day, it might be your daughter that chooses to abort your grandchild.  I have degraded no one here for their choices, but have stated that my belief is a core part of me, and to call someone a hypocrite shows your lack of understanding what the word says. I do not agree that a child should have any less rights than the woman who finds herself in a bad situation. I do not have all the answers, I am not god but I do believe that his plan is one that works in the end and each individual will stand before him.I am no ones judge but will continue to be an advocate for the unborn until someone proves to me it is not a person.Respectfully of course.

Amen, Teko. I agree 100% with you. Only you said it better than I could have. I'm too tired to even think straight today!

I didn't respond to anything regarding the "funked up" journal.......I was clearly making a statement and anyone in one second could have med-help um up your colon, but I'm not gonna do it.......not saying med help plays favorites its the people on the board who play dat game.........personally I think this whole thing is a joke.....uh, lets see how fast this response gets pulled......???

Respectfully, of course

Nauty..........

you think the posts in this journal are a joke? or the fact that it's still running?

Under normal circumstances, if a woman doesn't want to be "punished" with the burdens of motherhood, she needs to be more careful and accept consequences as they come. That's my opinion, under NORMAL circumstances.

Again, the choice to have an abortion is "accepting the consequences" of failed contraception.

teko- I wasn't talking about You......... I was speaking in general.

What I mean by hypocrite.... is if someone says they are christian.....  judge someone... THEN they are being a hypocrite... "Thou Shalt Not Judge".....  please help me understand how that is lack of understanding what the word says? hypocrite [hip-oh-krit] Noun a person who pretends to be what he or she is not

Pcarsey,  there is no "Thou Shalt Not Judge" in the Bible.  ;D

It's judge not lest ye be judged.    It means don't judge someone harshly for something you yourself do,  or would do in the future.

Be careful how you judge others.

nauty - i'm not pulling anything.  Even if I dont really get why you even responded in the first place.

So, babypooh, have you ever had sex strictly for pleasure?

You are correct, judge the action not the person. I am not offended, I am just clarifying. I think this is a good debate and we have proven we can have it without fighting. I like you, am putting a different view out there. lol Gotta work some more, carry on and I will catch up with ya all later.

Unless a person has walked in another's shoes, they have no idea how they would react. I used to think for years I would handle a situation a certain way...until I was in that situation.

You never know, you just never know.

Honestly - I have never read the whole bible... just saying that (IMO) people should leave religion out of it..  same as not making it political..

Andi - especially judging people on parenting!!   Youch,  that one will come back to bite ya?  "I would never allow my kids to do that" - if I could take back saying (or thinking) that.   I know there's someone keeping score somewhere,  and when you say that they make a little note and you'll have kids who do "that" in spades.

Haha.

RockRose....dont you feel that commenting on someone kids and parenting might be a little below the belt here?

Exactly what is that supposed to mean, RR?

Now my advice comes from walking in those shoes, not at all the same thing. Nice try though, not biting, RR.

Andi,   What?  I think we've had a miscommunication,  honestly.  I'm truly agreeing with you.

I think I've stepped in it,  and I truly have no idea why you are stung.

I really mean it.  The times in my life where there have been kids doing something naughty,  I'd think tsk tsk,  my kids will never do that.  And that's exactly the stuff they did,  whatever that was,  in spades.  Like,  throwing rocks at cars when they were little.

Sorry to be misunderstood.

??

Hmm, seems like you did step in it. nothing you say is accidental, RR. Nothing.

I believe in karma for sure. I do know that there are times, before having kids, when I would balk at something a child did. Turns out, that is not terribly uncommon ;-)

Look at T and the poo picture, never would I have expected to be in that position. Karmic punishment for sure.

Well, ladies. This has been a blast, but i have some reports to type and brainstorming to do for my 3-Day.

Try to be kind.

RR I do not think you know what Andi is even talking about... because she is speaking of abortions..... and you are well.... way in left field...

I understood you, RockRose. I used to do that too, before I had kids. I used to look at someone's kid in the store throwing a fit and I'd think "Wow, what a brat. Why can't they control that kid?" Well, that one did come back to bite me in the butt. :) God has a sense of humor, that's for sure, because he gave me a daughter with a strong will who used to throw the worst tantrums EVER. I'd have to pick her up and throw her over a shoulder, kicking and screaming while I left the store with my face bright red. Fortunately, she outgrew that stage. She's still strong willed but a good kid.

I don't have any idea,  I promise. I have none.  I'm taking about judging other people,  because you haven't been there.

I'm talking about judging parents before you actually have kids,  which is what I used to do,  and now I don't tsk tsk at misbehaving children.

I promise that's what I meant.   Nothing more,  nothing personal.  Nothing.

Thanks,  April.  I believe in Karma too,  and God does have a sense of humor.  

Pcarsey,  we aren't just speaking of abortions here in this very long journal,  but rather,  judging in general.  That's what I was talking about.

Andi,  you've misunderstood what I said to you,  inadvertently stepping in something,  I swear I still don't know.  But,  I didn't misunderstand what you had to say back,  which was very purposeful.

Anyway,  I'm hosting neighborhood Bunco tonight and got to go clean toilets.  

Oh man, it just took forever to get through everything.  I had to reread from yesterday!  WOW!

Lot's of topic changes, and very confusing stuff going on here.

Good to see there is still a good debate going on with no harsh, well too harsh words I guess!  YAY for you!  =)  I'm enjoying reading everyones opinions on everything.  Very valid points in here!

OK, so while I was feeding my baby, I thought of something that I wanted to ask.  To people that are pro-life, do you ever think what it could mean for not just women, but human rights if the government made abortion illegal?  Does the ramifications that choices that are important to YOU could be taken away?  How would you like that?  OK, first abortion, fine.....then what if the government then says that because there is no more abortion, population control is out of hand, and upon delivering your second child, you are sterilized?  Once we open the flood gates, there will be no way to close them again....just something to think about from our side of the fence.

In my opinion, it's true that often times you don't know how you will react until you go through a situation, but whether you know or not how you will react, you know if you're doing wrong or not. Accepting consequences in this case means accepting them, not "dealing" with them by ending them, in my opinion.
Regarding kids :) So true! Kids are OUR bosses sometimes, it seems, he he.

You bring up some very valid points, Ziggy. Ones that I don't think can be answered that quickly or lightly. I watched a situation with a doctor friend of mine. He was the kindest most caring man and a believer. His wife got pregnant with twins and one twin wasn't growing. Not only that but it was taking blood away from the other twin, etc. It also had water on the brain and other problems. They agonized over what to do. They conferred with many doctors and specialists to make sure this twin did not have a chance. They also were told this twin would jeopardize the other and they could lose them both. Reluctantly, they agreed to terminate the one twin in order to save the other. I felt so bad for him that they even had to be put in this situation. I did not judge them. I don't know what I would have done in this situation.

Yes, I'm pro-life but there are going to be situations that have to be looked at. I think my biggest problem is people who choose abortion for very selfish reasons, such as "Oops, I got pregnant, didn't mean to, don't want it, guess I'll abort it!" And believe me, that happens way more times than the medical reasons. It angers me that people would be so selfish and careless to do that. I knew someone in college who had 3 abortions. I thought that was disgusting.Did she not learn anything from the first one?!
I'm just saying, most abortions are NOT for medical reasons, they are because a baby would be inconvenient. That, I believe is wrong. If the baby is going to be inconvenient than at least give it up for adoption. That's all I'm saying.

Holy cow! I don't know what happened or why that posted so many times! All I know is it took forever to submit. Please delete those extras, Ziggy.

Holy cow! I don't know what happened or why that posted so many times! All I know is it took forever to submit. Please delete those extras, Ziggy.

Oh, good grief. I give up!

I am pro-choice. I personally would never have an abortion. Ironically, I might think less of a person for having an abortion, especially one for selfish reasons. But I cannot agree with forcing a person to carry a pregnancy. I wanted both of my pregnancies desperately, so I have been coping with the symptoms. I cannot imagine someone going through this and not WANTING it. And I know people who had even worse pregnancies. Pregnancy totally affects your life and your health. It interrupts your career. It interrupts you social life. It affects your health. I WANTED IT, so i am more than happy to let it affect all of these aspects of my life.
I had to have a c-section. Everyday I look at my scar and for some reason it is very upsetting to me. I still have trouble accepting that I was cut open. I feel this way despite accepting that i had to be cut open for both me and my baby to survive. I can't imagine what this physical reminder would do to someone who was forced to carry to term, especially after a traumatic event like rape. And like others have said, there are risks associated with carrying to term. i was very sick- my liver and kidneys were failing me due to preeclampsia. I am greatful to both modern medicine and God that we are both OK. I cannot justify forcing a person to go through all of this.
Abortion is upsetting to me. The thought of it is upsetting, what happens is upsetting. Like I said, knowing myself, I would probably even judge a person who chooses an abortion for selfish (nonmedical reasons). I know- we're not supposed to judge... but we all do. But I cannot agree with the government forcing a person to carry a pregnancy. That is the place of religion and a person's personal beliefs in God.

What happened? I don't see your journal on any of the forums now except my homepage??

tired

completely off topic, but i feel the same way about my c/s scar.  

Really April?  Maybe med help didnt want to delete but didnt want it getting any bigger or out of hand? I will have to investigate,

That is it, Ziggy. If it has been reported, rather than deleting, they simply "hide" it as it stands.

I haven't read all comments quite frankly over 200 hundred is alot.  But, random thought somewhat on subject.  I read someone's comment about aborting because of severe retardation.  Does this mean that women should not be allowed to fight with medication to keep a child in the first trimester when their body is rejecting it??  Most women I know who have fought desperately to keep a child trying to abort in the first trimester ended up with a handicaped child.  If you can abort b/c of retardation shouldn't you not be able to fight b/c of it.  This is strictly hypothetical and in no way reflects my views.

I still have five posts that all came up. You can delete those. :) I don't know what happened. I think MH was messing up or something because I saw that happen on another journal where someone's post showed up five times!

I would just like to point out that we are all pro choice. We all have the choice to support abortion as a convenient means of birth control in our society or demand a higher level of responsibility.  Pro choice advocates are correct to affirm the choice is up to women; they certainly have the most at stake here.  But it is a decision that needs to be made by society, all women, not each women individually. It is the same with virtually all our laws. We decide as a society which morals we will codify into law and which we reserve for individual preference. I may decide to drive 100 in a 50 zone, but my neighbors will want my driver's license suspended.  Perhaps rightly so. They have a stake in my driving also. Many people feel that they have a stake in protecting unborn babies as well as protecting innocent persons from torture, imprisonment or death.  We do not leave life and death decisions to the individual, for the most part but reserve those decisions to be weighed carefully by the laws of society.

As far as the law stating that a human being is "one able to live outside the womb"; it seems to me to fly in the face of scientific evidence that this can only happen once the baby draws its first breath of air. What about premature babies on incubators? Also I would like to point out that the law is whatever we, collectively, decide that it is.

Ultimately it is not about men dominating women or women being liberated from men, but of women and men deciding on the value society will put on the unborn. We seem to be of several minds on this question as some would have no restriction on what actions a mother can take regarding her unborn child. Some would ban it all together.

There is plenty of hypocrisy on both sides. Some who are pro life would want exceptions in their own cases, or in the cases of rape and incest. Many who are pro choice support punishment of mothers who endanger the health of their unborn fetus by reckless care of their own health. Attackers have been charged with double-homocide when their attack results in the death of the mother and of the unborn fetus.

We do not live in a perfect world where aboprtion would be unecessary. but I hope we keep our goals high and direct ourselfes to a society we can live with without abdicating all morality to convenience.

In Canada abortion is legal.  A fetus is not considered a person until he/she is born.  That's the law.  As a Native person, I was taught that life began at the moment of conception.  Would I force this law or my beliefs on anyone - no.  Pro-choice means exactly that - the freedom to abort or keep your unborn baby.  Personally, I would never have an abortion but would never, ever judge or prevent other women from having one.

I know this journal was written with a sarcastic slant  = )  My sons have never abused women.  That "teaching" was part of their everyday lives when they were growing up.  My daughters will not tolerate abuse either - I'm off topic, sorry  = (

What struck me the most was fairylover9's story.  It's so common but seldom addressed (don't mean in this journal).  Incest fills us with shame and very few people want to talk about it.

Well, I had a particularly difficult day at work, so I am moving away from the judging and heading straight back to the abortion issue (sorry Ziggy).  Some of you know I work with those living in poverty and the homeless.  Yep, that means hands on with drug addicts, prostitutes, and so on.  Many of these women become pregnant, some through carelessness, others through rape or other circumstances.  It's a tough life on the streets for many (and trust me, not a one chose this life).  The problem I have with absolute pro life stance is that as these women have their babies (who are born with fetal alcohol syndrome, drug addiction, major disabilities, etc.) the babies are generally taken by social services due to these issues (as they should be).  We also have a medical clinic where from time to time terminations are performed.  As a result, we are sometimes pickited by the really hard core pro lifers.  I don't see these same hard core pro lifers lining up to adopt or even foster these babies with severe issues....why is that?  A "not in my backyard" situation perhaps?  When they step up to care for these babies that no one seems to want (there are alot of them, and there issues are not easy to deal with), I will re address my pro choice belief system.  Like I said, it was a tough day today...

adgal, I totally agree with you.  I also don't see the pro lifers lining up totake on the emotion/financial burden of these unwanted children.  it is such a shame.  To do what you do, and see the things that you see.....I have full stock in your opnion.  you see the things that some of the more ignorant pro lifers(not meaning anyone in particular) refuse to see.  it is not all sunshine and lollipops and sometimes having a baby is not a good idea.

Thanks Ziggy.  I am not trying to imply that these babies do not have lives worth living. In a perfect world these babies would be loved and nurtured.  It's just not a perfect world.  And while so many say there should not be terminations under any circumstances, these same will not step up to the plate and take on these highly challenged children.  I would love to know what the solution is.  The flip side is, many of our adult clients are also the result of fetal alcohol syndrome...its not pretty.  Maybe my attitude is wrong, but as I said, I live it every day. Front line and hands on.  I would never terminate myself, but I am not living the life so many of the people I see do.  I guess just something to think about.

Government is you and I, not 'government'.  The U.S. government is not monarchical, dictatorial, but it it's also slow, and that by intent of our founders.  Our freedom is to choose what is right.  Truth is not subjective to human feelings, joys, sorrows, emotional colorations by life experience.  We as people (inclusive of gender and race and age) have way more in common than reasons to bicker and quarrel.  Violence by word or deed is so counter to love of self and neighbor.  How can we question that our own beloved life began when our dad's sperm succeded where so many other sperm failed, to enter mother's fertile and welcoming inner nest, implanting itself, unshakable from that point forward to redirect our eye color, ear and nose shape, optimal height and bone density.  This moment in itself is miracle.

I found this blog searching 'sarcastic method' to show my son what sarcasm is when well done.
He is passionately pro-life so I hope he will review you discussion posted here and learn a little.