After being cured from Chronic Renal Failure - convalescence and related problems

[francoise_peace]

Discuss about cat convalescence after having being cured from CRF.

Hello, my 19yo cat cured from CRF, but I'll have to continue treatment. And I don't know if after being cured, if she shall continue treatment or not, because usually cats don't get cured of CRF.

She'll soon re-start her treatment: Renalzin + Probiavi probiotics, Renalzin made her Phosphorus get lower and the probiotics made her Urea get lower, and both made the Creatinine get back to normal levels:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/

- I don't know if it's good to wait for her probiotics to arrive before re-start ?
- I don't know if low urea is dangerous ?
- I don't know if low phosphorus is dangerous ?
- I don't know if there is something in her kidney that didn't cure ?

Renalzin = Lanthanum carbonate (Human Renalzin in France is called Fosrenol, but you must have the same medicine with another name in UK and USA)

Probiavi contains =

Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum
Lactobacillus Acidophillus
Streptococcus Thermophilus
S.Cervisiae (yeast)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide)
And a little dextrose (food grade)

And there is also another problem, I pass my time trying to contact a researcher that can tell me if it is possible that one of her probiotics bacteria has mutated into one that can cure cat kidney cancer or contains a new virus that can cure CRF ? And I also think that if such bacteria or virus exists, it comes from Canada and it travels in USA through Psyllium Husk that are prebiotics, that means food for bacteria. But I still did not have a positive answer from any researcher. It is important because cure for CRF, or at least mega toxin eater that lowers Urea, cannot be into a volatil compound that has not been identified and whose presence depends on luck.

If there isn't such mutated bacteria nor virus, it's only the treatment that worked. Some humans also can cure from it.

I also have no vet knowledge and am a simple pet owner.

[DonnaYav]

abnormal low levels of phosphorus indicate dietary imbalance, Diabetes or overactive parathyroid gland.

low levels of blood urea nitrogen can indicate Liver disease or starvation..

I am not saying that possibly you ran across something that has actually "cured" your cat but as we all know if your cat has Renal failure there is no cure only things we can give them to help and to slow down progression..

Renal failure usually is not caught till the cat starts showing symptoms like Excessive water intake, frequent urination, vomiting, constipation, Diarrhea, loss of appetite, etc.

Sometimes if a cat is dehydrated or has an infection their bun and creatine levels can go up and then come down after treatment..

That's all I know, I also am not a vet  but a pet owner who has also lost one of her cats due to a four year battle with CRF...

[opus88]

Fran I agree with Donna, CRF can only be controlled not cured, your efforts have gone a long long way towards keeping kitty as healthy as he can be and hopefully will be with you for a long time yet.
I too lost my dear Opus 5yr ago  to CRF he too had a 3 yr battle, with medications and many trips to the city to a special clinic....I wasn't even on a computer back 5 yrs ago, otherwise I know I could have done many things different for him back than....we learn as we go and can't change the past.
keep up the great work!!

♥Opus

[DonnaYav]

I agree totally, I have learned more about CRF after I lost my calico kitty over a year and a half ago, we learn from mistakes, that is for sure..
Keep up the good work..

[francoise_peace]

I hope she doesn't have liver disease. She'll only see her vet in 2 months. Her eyes have always been yellowish, there has never been white in them because it is a cat eye, they are one single back color + black | , so I can't tell if she is more yellow. I had a similar problem because of Gilbert disease x stress, but I didn't get yellow, but I'm not sure. Furthermore with all her fur, I can't tell neither if her skin is more yellow. I don't think her tong is unusual although she licks herself fast.

She is waiting a little before going on treatment. Probiotics didn't came.

Without the treatment her appetite is getting better. Although she only eats in the morning, now she is eating twice in the morning. Could be a starvation problem because she is overweight.
-
I'm giving her Whiskas cat milk, I hope it's good for the bones because it has vitamin D, taurine, and calcium. And my mother is also taking milk with vitamin D.

[DonnaYav]

I would say it could possibly be diet related..You see most kidney prescription diets are actually too low in protein, I have to disagree with professionals that still cling to the old knowledge of "low Protein" for a renal failure cat(I have read that those low protein diets cause malnutrition and muscle wasting)..My cat gets a high quality, low carb, no grain canned cat food and her BUN (blood urea nitrogen) levels are still high but have come down from 60 to 50 and her Creatinine remains the same, 2.8..
The object is, the quality of the protein, no By-products, no synthetic additives or fillers, this takes extra stress off of the cat's kidneys..

[francoise_peace]

I just found her past weight (30 July -> 8 September): 4.5 -> 3.250
Normally loosing weight should height her creatinine. Else there was a problem with the machine, else it's something with her (cured or wrong diagnostic).

Probiotics lasted: 6 August to 2 September 2010, new ones didn't came. I restarted Renalzin phosphate binder today the 16th September, I had stopped the 2th September.

She went to vet: 24 June, 30 July, 8 September
Her Crea levels mg/L did 23.3 - 26.8 - 21.8
It's only her Urea that had significant variations g/L: 0,524 - 0,774 - 0,308

I really think the Kidney food wasn't good for her health. But I don't know what is good. Now she is with Royal Canin Renal Special (because she wants it more than K/D with no taste) mixed with some Science Hills Senior big croccroc. And Science Hills 7+ wet turkey.

" the quality of the protein, no By-products, no synthetic additives or fillers, this takes extra stress off of the cat's kidneys " I agree. Tell me names ?

Yes diet related problems may explain Urea significant variation. But she is eating more then before but less than when she was overweight.

[francoise_peace]

And I have a 2 high Urea problem in the past:

19 sept 2009
urea 0.770
crea 17.7

26 nov 2009 (not my vet)
urea 0.849
crea 19.1

http://www.labtestsonline.org.au/understanding/analytes/urea/test.html
Urea levels increase with age and also with the amount of protein in your diet. High-protein diets may cause abnormally high urea levels. Very low-protein diets can cause abnormally low urea.

Yes, shes was having a pack of about 10 Sheba Chicken with true slices when she had the 30 July high Urea. And the abnormal  low Urea is due to KIdney food that also might have lower her weight (I don't know why ?).

So food has a lot to do with health !!!

[opus88]

hi Fran this will be short, I'm in a rush this a.m and will try and give a brief reply to the postings.
I agree with animals as wiht ppl food has a great deal to do with our health.
Sorry I can't answer your renal questions.
I can give you a site from dr. Lisa Pierson that does give a list of good no grain high protein foods.
she is full of info on nutritiion, I'm not sure if she has any specific info on Kidney diets tho? good luck, you are doing a super job!!

www.catinfo.org

[francoise_peace]

Please take care of your life.

I do not wish to hurry you. I have more time to spend on internet than you, so I do not wish to eat your precious time with your job, your home and your cat.

My sister thinks that her levels variation is due to the fact that she is old, and sometimes her kidney works, sometimes her kidney doesn't work. This would explain Creatinine variations, if she has Chronic Renal Failure because of aging and not because of phosphorus or other disease. My sister doesn't think she is cured, she thinks she is old, and that's what is causing all the health problems. And she says: you cannot cure from aging.

And I had the Sheba Chicken percents %, phosphorus levels are good in the food, but since it is true sllices, it is protein levels that are not good in the food and that can higher Urea levels:

SHEBA® dômes au blanc de poulet (chicken breast):

Teneurs moyennes pour 100 g de produit (per 100g)
Matières grasses (FAT): 0,8 g
Proteines : 12,7 g
Phosphore : 0,06 g
Sodium : 0,02 g

Furthermore since yesterday the 16th September she is back on Renalzin and 1/2 Fortekor.

Right now she has:
- Royal Canin Renal Special mixed with Science Hills 7+ big crocroc that she doesn't always eats.
- Science Hills wet with turkey 7+

I don't like the idea of 7+ on a 19+ cat.

[francoise_peace]

Thank you for the website, it recommended wet food with no grain. My cat PH was 6.2 than 6. I'll try to measure it later because I am afraid of CaO. (Cat PH is 6 - 6.5 more means too much carbohydrates, less too much meat / ph paper sold for fish aquarium is less expensive than for saliva and it is the same paper).

:) Take your time.

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Complete Probiotics Powder for Pets since Probiavi didn't arrive and sellers told me there was an hygienic problem: they tried to convince me you can freeze a product that has thawed (has de-freeze) for me to buy more product and they don't want to send a 48H carbon-ice package, just the same thing that gets wet on the way. I think it didn't arrive because Canada Post must have trown away a wet package. And even if their probiotics are good, I won't trust their travelling hygien anymore.

I still don't have a job, it's going to be a hard investment, but it's GMP certified.
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

[francoise_peace]

Shipping of USA probiotics is between 29 to 35$, I'll try to convince Probiavi to pay extra for good shipping.

[francoise_peace]

Probiavi told me they prefer giving money back than paying extra for better shipping. So I'll have about 30euros to spend in another probiotics. Mine where too expensive and bacterial quantity not indicated. I asked Mercola what is included in their about 30euros shipping? Is it refrigerated? I could try asking my pharmacy, because in France all medicine is pharmaceutical, they don't sell like that over the net.

I hope I did the good choice, because I can't go on saying I'm happy, I look stupid if I act like that. No one I know will act as stupid as I do. Becoming intelligent is difficult. My family wouldn't have accepted anyway that I give to the cat something that has been out there for 12 days now.

[opus88]

Franc why don't you use the powdered form?...this is the one I get for Nemo. I order it from the US (into Canada) for an international shipment fee of $12...arrives in less than a week and no worries about spoilage. this one is SAFE for pet use, info from holistic sources.
http://www.iherb.com/Culturelle-Culturelle-Probiotic-30-Veggie-Caps/7797?at=0

[francoise_peace]

Hey, thanks !
I also asked a question on Yahoo Question-Answers:
http://*****************/question/index?qid=20100918142917AA7E2n1

I think it's important to have opinion of people that have tested it on their cats. Since I'm kind of parano about my cat's health. Yes, I'm really worried about shipment time because I'm not a doctor to know if what a seller says is relevant for a more than one week shipment (last time I didn't complain about it arriving wet, I thought: bacteria breathing, it's not me that have told to me that wet was no good for bacterias, it was the sellers mistake, and I didn't force him to tell me nonsense), and my mother is working on fast food, they throw away all food if they not sell within next hours, and I already got a food infection in a normal restaurant. So if my cat has a liver problem, bad bacteria could harm her, because I'm not sure they invented injections for cat stopping vomiting or removing toxins (they don't even do it for kidney). And I had a dog that was killed with poison by a thief, and one of my cats that died because/related to of the fluids (that can also save cats), I felt the infection getting on him and making him cold.

I don't think I am a bad buyer if I just buy for my beloved cat, and I think I deserve attention and understanding if I am worried of the future. Perhaps I am exagerated, perhaps I am not but only I can't proof I could dominate situation like a man does, but I can't change how I am. Perhaps I'm exasperating. I always talk too much :D

[francoise_peace]

Seeing the dry that has probiotics included (cheaper and better):

> ORIJEN Cat Food (zooplus):
Fresh chicken (boned), chicken meat, dry turkey, russet potatoes, freshly caught salmon (boned) (natural source of DHA and EPA), dry herring, sweet potatoes, fresh whitefish (boned), peas, fresh perch, chicken fat, chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh turkey (boned), fresh eggs, fresh herring (boned), sun-dried alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, kelp, squash, carrots, spinach, apples, cranberries, juneberries, blackcurrants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, fennel, peppermint leaves, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savoury, rosemary extract, sea salt, high-quality vitamins (vitamin E, choline chloride, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin B1, vitamin B12, folic acid, biotin), minerals (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese, copper , selenium), Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium

> Taste of The Wild (zooplus.com.uk):
Dried chicken meat, peas, sweet potatoes, chicken fat, potato protein, roasted venison, smoked salmon, natural flavouring, ocean fish meal, methionine, potassium chloride, taurine, choline chloride, dried chicory root, tomatoes, blueberries, raspberries, yucca schidigera extract, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei and Lactobacillus plantarum, dried Trichoderma longibrachiatum fermentation extract, vitamins (A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D, E), minerals ((iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, manganese sulphate), potassium iodide, manganous oxide, biotin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, folic acid.

>Acana Grasslands Cat Food
Boneless lamb, lamb meal, salmon meal, russet potato, herring meal, chicken meal, peas, sweet potato, boneless duck, salmon oil, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E), boneless walleye, dried chicken liver, sun-cured alfalfa, whole egg, pumpkin, spinach, turnip greens, tomatoes, carrots, apples, organic kelp, cranberries, blueberries, juniper berries, blackcurrants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, lavender flowers, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, niacin, Zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, Iron proteinate, vitamin B6, maganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

Without probiotics:

> Happy Cat Fit & Well Best Age 10+
Maize, poultry meal (10%), greaves (9.5%), rice flour, poultry fat, salmon meal (4%), beef fat, lamb meal (2.5%), hydrolysed liver, sugar beet slices, dried liver, apple pomace (dried) (1%), powdered egg, sodium chloride, yeast (dried), potassium chloride, barley (fermented) (0.2%), seaweed (dried) (0.15%), linseed (0.15%), yeast extract, chicory root extract (0.04%), mussel meat (dried) (0.02%), artichokes, dandelion, ginger, birch leaves, nettles, sage, coriander, rosemary, thyme, liquorice root, chamomile, meadowsweet, wild garlic. (Herbs in total: 0.1%)

> Happy Cat Fit & Well Grain-Free Adult
Poultry meal (29%), potato flakes (29 %), greaves (8.5%), potato protein (6%), poultry fat, beef fat, sugar beet molasses, hydrolysed liver, apple pomace (dried), dried liver, yeast (dried), linseed, sodium chloride, seaweed (dried), yeast extract, yucca shidigera (0.03%)

> Eukanuba Senior
Chicken (>30%), chicken liver (>15%), maize grits, maize, fish meal, sorghum, poultry meal, dried beet pulp, dried whole egg, poultry digest, poultry fat, brewer's dried yeast, fructooligosaccharides, potassium chloride, DL-methionine, sodium chloride, borage oil, glucosamine HCl, chondroitin sulphate, marigold extract

> That should interest donna: http://www.gripetfoods.com/PetFoodoftheYear.htm
Orijen is the pet food of the year for 3 years now, in low glycemia.

[francoise_peace]

Perhaps if I buy one Taste of the wild dry ?
I already have wet food at home (Science Hills).

About Taurine french Wikipedia says the strict opposite of english Websites ( ???) so is Taurine good for liver and kidney ?

-> Consumption of taurine is not recommended for children, pregnant women or those suffering from liver and / or kidneys. In addition, people with heart problems or tension should not consume more than 2 cans containing taurine week. ???

Gimpet Schnurries "Purries" with Taurine & Salmon
Milk & dairy products, oils & fats, yeast, dehydrated salmon (4%), egg and egg products, vegetable by-products, lactose derivative with TGOS (1%), minerals.
Dyed with EC additives
Vitamin A (7,140 IU/kg), vitamin E (19.65 mg/kg), vitamin B2 (7.74 mg/kg), vitamin D3 (1,420 IU/kg), vitamin B1 (1.78 mg/kg), vitamin B6 (9.52 mg/kg), taurine (2,000 mg/kg).

Gimpet Schnurries "Purries" with Taurine & Chicken
Milk and dairy products, oils & fats, yeast, dehydrated chicken (4%), egg and egg products, vegetable by-products, lactose derivative with TGOS (1%), minerals.
Vitamin A (7,140 IU/kg), vitamin E (19.65 mg/kg), vitamin B2 (7.74 mg/kg), vitamin D3 (1,420 IU/kg), vitamin B1 (1.78 mg/kg), vitamin B6 (9.52 mg/kg), taurine (2,000 mg/kg).  

Gimpet Taurine Tablets
Vitamin A 7.140 IU., vitamin D3 1.420 IU, vitamin E 19.6 mg, vitamin B1 1.7 mg, vitamin B2 7.7 mg, vitamin B6 9.5 mg, vitamin B12 19.6 mcg, vitamin K3 1.1 mg, taurine 50.000 mg

Felini Taurine
Taurine (2- aminoethanesulphonic acids)
Taurine content: 99.44%
pH-level: 4.5 – 6.0

[francoise_peace]

I'm thinking about Taste of The Wild dry with probiotics included + Gimpet Taurine, not sure wich one.

I researched about Taurine, it's good for liver:
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/taurine-dangers-of-taurine.html
"Animal studies on taurine have pointed out that, it can remove fatty deposits from the liver in rats. This in turn, might prove helpful in preventing the diseases of the liver including, liver cirrhosis. Taurine is present in the heart muscles and it may help to stabilize the heart rhythm. It may be beneficial in conditions like, high blood pressure, bipolar depression, cardiovascular and heart disease, high level of cholesterol and edema. Many also attribute antioxidant and immune boosting properties to taurine. Find out more about taurine benefits.

"Even effects of long term use of taurine is not known with certainty. However, it is considered that prolonged use of taurine supplements is not healthy. Synthetic taurine is supposed to have an association with conditions like, stroke, high blood pressure and seizure"

I think I need more Taurine than my cat.

She doesn't have anymore constipation, she is much more better than before. But she drinks a lot. But what is new is that she is more sensitive to cold and need to cover herself.

Anyway I read a lot that to prevent crystals acid -PH yellow (oxalate that needs operation) or basic -PH blue (struvit that can be cured, but if you overdose medical crocroc for struvit, struvit transforms into oxalate), it is important that the cat eats more wet than dry.

And about corporation/enterprises, they're the same thing then boyfriends, although I only had mostly platonic ones, first they want you to tell everyone they are the best, then they mix your name with some other woman name, then they dagger you, then they want to offer you a present. So the important for a woman is to show them they can be replaced. You don't need to be impolite, because you exist to have good goodbye presents. My probiotics didn't arrive (16 days waiting). So it can't be a present, but my repayment will be my present. Usually guys are better at thinking goodbye presents than welcome presents. That's all about Probiavi side effects that prefered woman that buy 1kg probiotics than one that buy 50g, and that mistake me for one that buy 100g.

And as a vegetarian, I think I need more Taurine than my cat, I'll speek to mum :)

[francoise_peace]

They put one of my letters about the mutated bacteria on web news, I asked them to remove my e-mail and my postal address (what ?!)
http://www.art2vivre.fr/14.html

:) I feel like laughing, but it's something. It means people are asking themself questions.

[francoise_peace]

PH: 6.2 - Monday 20 September 2010 -> so no renal calculus
(pHydrion 5.5 to 8.0 bought at an aquarium store)

The picture is NOT of my cat but of an European cat. My cat breed is European. I prefer not to criticize the photo, because usually when I write a scientific article, people want to put their own photo, and when I argue, it had caused in the past (in geology field) big problems. So it's important not to argue about photos.

They removed my e-mail and postal address and added that: the text only engages my opinion, good. That's important for credibility related with interpretation.

[francoise_peace]

Do we live in a world that turns round ?

Taste of the Wild (processed with purified water !) and Gimpet salmon with taurine (not sure this one is good because it contains minerals) did arrive !

But someone stole the welcome present. I don't care. But I understood that it was to make me think the probiotics were stolen. But it isn't the same shipper. But it's stupid to steal a probiotics, they should steal instead the separed bags Probiavi uses to create their probiotics in Canada not in France. Anyway I don't need anymore their probiotics because there are in the dry food.

I think I agree with the ideas of Taste of the Wild - all better things in one (antioxydants, vitamins, probiotics, purified water,...) - and I hope to stabilise her health.

**

I hope your cats will have some years to live. Please take good care of them and enjoy last moments of your lifes together. I agree with vets that it is important that they feel well. About food I did gave kidney, but I also think it is important that they have a meal they like, with taste and all cat's vitamins, but that isn't only protein made.

But don't forget the phosphate binder, when it lowers phosphorus, we feel a lot safer with food, and we can give more normal food that isn't only proteins.

[francoise_peace]

Today Minou is sick, she had big diarrhea with vomiting, she went to the vet and had an injection, and will go back again tomorrow.

Vet thinks it is due to changing food habits. She mustn't eat until night. She mustn't eat wet food. And she mustn't eat dry food bought on the internet.

Yesterday I measured her PH with PH paper under her, 6.0, OK.

[opus88]

hi, perhaps you tried to make too many changes all at once to Minou's diet??
remember to transition slowly their systems need a while to cope with changes.

Her PH is excellent!!

Hope she recovers quickly. keep us posted.

♥Opus

[francoise_peace]

She went to the vet.

It was perhaps her changing diet that caused diarrhea. So she is forbidden of Science Hills wet canned food and Taste of the Wild dry all-vitamins-in-one food. I didn't gave to the vet her food names.

Advice from the vet:
- Stay with her usual cat food.
- Food with vitamins isn't good for kidney.
- It's not good to change food habits.
- Avoid wet canned food.
- If her favorite food is Renal diet, you can go on.
- If it is written on kidney food 2-4 months, it must be for dissolving renal calculus. (And indeed Royal Canin is - thanks god not for Struvite - because her PH is yellow to green and not green to blue - but for calcium oxalate - so it higher alkalinity, that's what I have read on the box).

So my cat prescription is continue with her favorite kidney diet dry food:
Royal Canin Renal Special

And I forgot to talk about her PH, but he cut her nails, and I only asked him how to cut them ? So nice !

Her blood analysis will be done next month.

Other problem: because of diarrhea, her head is now always looking down, vet said must be because she forced a lot yesterday and it hurted her vertebral column.

Anyway she drank by herself 3 times yesterday, eated by 17h, and drank today on the morning, and eated a little bit.

But she lost weight: 3kg100, before it was 3kg250, before it was 4kg500 but, I musn't change her food because change will be:
1) No good for her kidney.
2) No good for her bowel.

Old cats are very complicated and very sensitive about food, it seems that food can control in very short time their health ! So be cautious with food experiments, it's not because a food is good and have everything a cat needs, that it can be good for an old cat.

And now I really think that what causes diarrhea or constipation is not food in itself, but food changing. Cats musn't change food habits that work with them. Even if we think there isn't enough vitamins in it, or if there is maize in it.