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Big stakes for Biden and Ryan in VP debate
Rarely has a vice presidential debate been as crucial as the one between Vice President Biden and Rep. Paul Ryan on Thursday night will be. After Mitt Romney’s lopsided victory over President Obama in Denver last week, the exchange will arrive at a fluid and potentially pivotal moment in the campaign.
For the Obama team, Thursday will offer an opportunity to short-circuit the advances Romney has made since the first presidential debate. For the GOP, Ryan will have a chance to piggyback on Romney’s performance and solidify the gains their ticket has made in recent days.
The stakes are also higher than usual because the participants have a standing beyond their roles as running mates. They are real players, not potted plants or a sideshow to the main event.
Biden is vice president and therefore fully accountable for what has gone right and wrong on Obama’s watch. He is a central player in the administration who has not shirked from offering the president unvarnished advice. He also speaks with the credibility of someone who has been in public life for four decades, with wide experience in foreign and domestic policy.
Ryan, too, is more than just a vice presidential nominee plucked from obscurity to fill out a national ticket. The House Budget Committee chairman may have a limited public profile nationally, but he has served seven terms in Congress and, of far greater significance, his peers consider him the intellectual leader of the Republican Party for his work on the budget and the economy.
If you doubt that, recall this: Long before Romney was the GOP nominee, Obama was attacking Ryan and his fiscal blueprint, an early foreshadowing of the 2012 campaign that has come into clearer focus this fall.
Some vice presidential debates are mere entertainment relative to the overall race, enjoyable but incidental to the fundamentals of the campaign. That was certainly the case four years ago when the forum, which drew a huge audience, was all about Sarah Palin, whose candidacy had captured the imaginations of friends and foes alike.
But the outcome of that exchange — a tie or modest victory for Palin in the eyes of many pundits and a win for Biden according to the public — did nothing to shift a race that already had moved away from Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and safely toward Obama. Thursday’s debate at Centre College in Danville, Ky., could be different.
National public polls show movement toward Romney since Denver. A Pew Research Center poll released Monday highlighted a big gain for Romney. Gallup began posting a sample of likely voters from its tracking poll and Tuesday’s showed Romney leading 49 percent to 47 percent. Among registered voters, Obama was ahead 49 percent to 46 percent.
GOP enthusiasm is up, which is good news for Romney. But more evidence is needed to know how much the landscape in the battleground states has been changed by the debate. CNN released a poll of Ohio on Wednesday that showed two things: Romney has narrowed the gap there, but the president is still ahead among likely voters by 51 percent to 47 percent. Other battleground surveys are expected by week’s end, and they should give a clearer picture of the state of play.
Romney advisers say the key battlegrounds are now within the margin of error, a significant shift from two weeks ago, when Obama led in Ohio, for example, by six to 10 points, depending on the survey. They are far more bullish today than they were a few weeks ago amid Romney’s difficulties.
Obama advisers say they, too, have seen some movement toward Romney but make two points to counter what the Romney team is saying. In Ohio, for example, they say that they still believe the president holds a real lead and that they remain narrowly ahead in a number of other states.
They argue that the big margins of two weeks ago were always destined to tighten, given everything that is known about these states from past campaigns. The debates, they say, accelerated a process that was likely to happen sometime in October.
But from their research, the race has begun to settle down. Romney is not continuing to gain ground. “Romney has consolidated some of the gains he was going to get anyway,” said White House senior adviser David Plouffe. “We weren’t going to win battlegrounds by 10 points.”
The campaigns aren’t playing the expectations game ahead of this debate as vigorously as they did before the first presidential debate. Biden is knowledgeable and an experienced debater. Republicans expect he will give Ryan a tough exchange. Ryan also is considered smart, substantive and authentic. Some Democrats regard him as a better communicator than Romney. They don’t anticipate he will stumble.
Ryan has several possible weaknesses. He knows the budget to such a level of detail that he could fall into wonk-talk if he’s not careful. What works on the House floor or in an inside-the-Beltway debate won’t necessarily work with a television audience of 50 million or more. As one Republican noted, Ryan has to resist being chairman of the House Budget Committee on Thursday night.
Nerves also could be an issue. Ryan has never debated on a stage this big. He has much at stake. Beyond this election, there is the question of his future as a national Republican leader — a possible presidential candidate in 2016 if Romney loses.
Biden’s potential weaknesses are well known. One is a propensity to be windy, although he was anything but that against Palin. He has a history of verbal gaffes, but mostly when he’s unscripted or lets his guard down, which shouldn’t be the case Thursday. He could appear condescending or patronizing to his younger rival. He could be too aggressive. He also must defend Obama’s record on the economy, which the president did not do effectively last week.
Ryan said this week that he expects Biden to be forceful on Thursday to make up the ground that Obama ceded to Romney last week. Biden will attempt to force Ryan to defend what the Obama campaign considers Romney’s dishonest performance in Denver.
The vice president’s attacks probably will focus on Ryan’s budget, which Romney has embraced only in part, and he’s likely to try to make Ryan the issue as much as Romney. Ryan’s challenge will be to make an appealing case for his worldview while making clear that Romney is the head of the ticket and running on his own platform.
The next presidential debate will be held Tuesday at Hofstra University in New York, but what happens Thursday in Kentucky is likely to have a big effect on how things look by the time Obama and Romney meet again.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/big-stakes-for-biden-and-ryan-in-vp-debate/2012/10/09/b24d55de-1249-11e2-be82-c3411b7680a9_print.html
For the Obama team, Thursday will offer an opportunity to short-circuit the advances Romney has made since the first presidential debate. For the GOP, Ryan will have a chance to piggyback on Romney’s performance and solidify the gains their ticket has made in recent days.
The stakes are also higher than usual because the participants have a standing beyond their roles as running mates. They are real players, not potted plants or a sideshow to the main event.
Biden is vice president and therefore fully accountable for what has gone right and wrong on Obama’s watch. He is a central player in the administration who has not shirked from offering the president unvarnished advice. He also speaks with the credibility of someone who has been in public life for four decades, with wide experience in foreign and domestic policy.
Ryan, too, is more than just a vice presidential nominee plucked from obscurity to fill out a national ticket. The House Budget Committee chairman may have a limited public profile nationally, but he has served seven terms in Congress and, of far greater significance, his peers consider him the intellectual leader of the Republican Party for his work on the budget and the economy.
If you doubt that, recall this: Long before Romney was the GOP nominee, Obama was attacking Ryan and his fiscal blueprint, an early foreshadowing of the 2012 campaign that has come into clearer focus this fall.
Some vice presidential debates are mere entertainment relative to the overall race, enjoyable but incidental to the fundamentals of the campaign. That was certainly the case four years ago when the forum, which drew a huge audience, was all about Sarah Palin, whose candidacy had captured the imaginations of friends and foes alike.
But the outcome of that exchange — a tie or modest victory for Palin in the eyes of many pundits and a win for Biden according to the public — did nothing to shift a race that already had moved away from Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and safely toward Obama. Thursday’s debate at Centre College in Danville, Ky., could be different.
National public polls show movement toward Romney since Denver. A Pew Research Center poll released Monday highlighted a big gain for Romney. Gallup began posting a sample of likely voters from its tracking poll and Tuesday’s showed Romney leading 49 percent to 47 percent. Among registered voters, Obama was ahead 49 percent to 46 percent.
GOP enthusiasm is up, which is good news for Romney. But more evidence is needed to know how much the landscape in the battleground states has been changed by the debate. CNN released a poll of Ohio on Wednesday that showed two things: Romney has narrowed the gap there, but the president is still ahead among likely voters by 51 percent to 47 percent. Other battleground surveys are expected by week’s end, and they should give a clearer picture of the state of play.
Romney advisers say the key battlegrounds are now within the margin of error, a significant shift from two weeks ago, when Obama led in Ohio, for example, by six to 10 points, depending on the survey. They are far more bullish today than they were a few weeks ago amid Romney’s difficulties.
Obama advisers say they, too, have seen some movement toward Romney but make two points to counter what the Romney team is saying. In Ohio, for example, they say that they still believe the president holds a real lead and that they remain narrowly ahead in a number of other states.
They argue that the big margins of two weeks ago were always destined to tighten, given everything that is known about these states from past campaigns. The debates, they say, accelerated a process that was likely to happen sometime in October.
But from their research, the race has begun to settle down. Romney is not continuing to gain ground. “Romney has consolidated some of the gains he was going to get anyway,” said White House senior adviser David Plouffe. “We weren’t going to win battlegrounds by 10 points.”
The campaigns aren’t playing the expectations game ahead of this debate as vigorously as they did before the first presidential debate. Biden is knowledgeable and an experienced debater. Republicans expect he will give Ryan a tough exchange. Ryan also is considered smart, substantive and authentic. Some Democrats regard him as a better communicator than Romney. They don’t anticipate he will stumble.
Ryan has several possible weaknesses. He knows the budget to such a level of detail that he could fall into wonk-talk if he’s not careful. What works on the House floor or in an inside-the-Beltway debate won’t necessarily work with a television audience of 50 million or more. As one Republican noted, Ryan has to resist being chairman of the House Budget Committee on Thursday night.
Nerves also could be an issue. Ryan has never debated on a stage this big. He has much at stake. Beyond this election, there is the question of his future as a national Republican leader — a possible presidential candidate in 2016 if Romney loses.
Biden’s potential weaknesses are well known. One is a propensity to be windy, although he was anything but that against Palin. He has a history of verbal gaffes, but mostly when he’s unscripted or lets his guard down, which shouldn’t be the case Thursday. He could appear condescending or patronizing to his younger rival. He could be too aggressive. He also must defend Obama’s record on the economy, which the president did not do effectively last week.
Ryan said this week that he expects Biden to be forceful on Thursday to make up the ground that Obama ceded to Romney last week. Biden will attempt to force Ryan to defend what the Obama campaign considers Romney’s dishonest performance in Denver.
The vice president’s attacks probably will focus on Ryan’s budget, which Romney has embraced only in part, and he’s likely to try to make Ryan the issue as much as Romney. Ryan’s challenge will be to make an appealing case for his worldview while making clear that Romney is the head of the ticket and running on his own platform.
The next presidential debate will be held Tuesday at Hofstra University in New York, but what happens Thursday in Kentucky is likely to have a big effect on how things look by the time Obama and Romney meet again.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/big-stakes-for-biden-and-ryan-in-vp-debate/2012/10/09/b24d55de-1249-11e2-be82-c3411b7680a9_print.html
Mrs. P....I was wondering what was going to happen if he ran out of water!!!
All in all, a very good debate.
All in all, a very good debate.
Ha, snacks are key my friend!! What about the cocktails . . . did you have those??
Ya know, I tentatively turned on CNN for the 'spin' and was quite pleasantly surprised. Lots of good remarks for Ryan and based on many things, it is called a draw.
I would think that they are pretty pleased with this response. While last week it was all about Obama doing poorly . . . this week is about the surprise that Ryan didn't do bad.
The snacks were still the highlight of my night though.
Ya know, I tentatively turned on CNN for the 'spin' and was quite pleasantly surprised. Lots of good remarks for Ryan and based on many things, it is called a draw.
I would think that they are pretty pleased with this response. While last week it was all about Obama doing poorly . . . this week is about the surprise that Ryan didn't do bad.
The snacks were still the highlight of my night though.
Amanda, he wasn't talking about increasing military presence in Libya, but rather how there should have been military protection (a marine assignment) for the ambassador and staff there, in light of the situation there, and the tragic attack that resulted.
I also don't think he is about war first, he said many times, obviously everyone would prefer to resolve these issues peacefully. I think he was cautioning people that he feels the Obama admin has NOT done enough to head off Iran's efforts to make nuclear weapons. The whole convo to me, personally, was unnerving, and personally, I feel more "protected" with the R/R stance. Declaring any type of war is a very unpopular decision, I doubt any pres would prefer to do that.
Biden's answer, however, was good, that IF miltary action was necessary, they would ensure the world is behind them. Even though that's sort of a talking point, it sounded good.
Iran makes me nervous. I don't like the fact thaty NEITHER of them could be very specific about "how close" they are to succeeding in their weaponry. I get the top secret stuff, but still. And sorry, but Biden saying that they have everything they need BUT something to put it in made my skin crawl. I thought, crap...there goes the sales of missile containers to Iran from Al Queda.
I also don't think he is about war first, he said many times, obviously everyone would prefer to resolve these issues peacefully. I think he was cautioning people that he feels the Obama admin has NOT done enough to head off Iran's efforts to make nuclear weapons. The whole convo to me, personally, was unnerving, and personally, I feel more "protected" with the R/R stance. Declaring any type of war is a very unpopular decision, I doubt any pres would prefer to do that.
Biden's answer, however, was good, that IF miltary action was necessary, they would ensure the world is behind them. Even though that's sort of a talking point, it sounded good.
Iran makes me nervous. I don't like the fact thaty NEITHER of them could be very specific about "how close" they are to succeeding in their weaponry. I get the top secret stuff, but still. And sorry, but Biden saying that they have everything they need BUT something to put it in made my skin crawl. I thought, crap...there goes the sales of missile containers to Iran from Al Queda.
*Ryan was thirsty
Sure was!
"*Ryan did better on foreign policy "
I respectfully disagree
*Ryan was REALLY thirsty
HAHA..Yea he was
Sure was!
"*Ryan did better on foreign policy "
I respectfully disagree
*Ryan was REALLY thirsty
HAHA..Yea he was
Agree with all of the above comments.
MY take/observations:
*Biden was a bit rude and interrupted WAY too much
*Felt a WEE bit like the moderator was harder on Ryan. Biden avoided answering some questions directly (like the Libya issue), but was not called on it...she called Ryan on skirting around the "math" issue with the economy/deficit. Did not curtail the interruptions.
*Biden was more "real"
*Ryan felt overly rehearsed at times
*Biden was disrespectful of the process
*Ryan repeated a lot of what Romney said, would have liked to seen some fresh approaches of the talking points
*Biden looking int he camera addressing the "people" was cheesy
*Ryan's closing remarks were cheesy and too "ad like", again too rehearsed
*Ryan looked like a baby with the age difference
*Ryan started off stronger, became rattled with Biden's aggressiveness
*Ryan was thirsty
*Biden was more relaxed, more seasoned
*Ryan did better on foreign policy
*Biden did better on the economy/deficit
*Abortion...tie
*Defense....tie, Biden maybe a bit stronger
*Healthcare...Biden
*Ryan was REALLY thirsty
*Biden's story about his wife/daughter was sad (never knew that)
*Story about Romney helping the family was touching
*Ryan does very well when talking about Romney
*Ryan talked more about Romney/Biden more about himself
*Biden didn't thank Ryan/Ryan thanked Biden
*Ryan's wife looks like she's 12 (but cute!).
I'm sure there is a bunch more, but that's my knee-jerk reaction/take on the debate. In comparison to the debate last week, Biden did very well for the dems. Overall, I'd say Biden did slightly better on preparedness and orgnaization, and speaking "off the cuff", but acted poorly a good bit of the time. Hard to say what the undecided people will think, like SM said, that's who matters in these kinds of things. We already have our minds made up.
It was a good one, I enjoyed watching it!
I had NO snacks! :0(
MY take/observations:
*Biden was a bit rude and interrupted WAY too much
*Felt a WEE bit like the moderator was harder on Ryan. Biden avoided answering some questions directly (like the Libya issue), but was not called on it...she called Ryan on skirting around the "math" issue with the economy/deficit. Did not curtail the interruptions.
*Biden was more "real"
*Ryan felt overly rehearsed at times
*Biden was disrespectful of the process
*Ryan repeated a lot of what Romney said, would have liked to seen some fresh approaches of the talking points
*Biden looking int he camera addressing the "people" was cheesy
*Ryan's closing remarks were cheesy and too "ad like", again too rehearsed
*Ryan looked like a baby with the age difference
*Ryan started off stronger, became rattled with Biden's aggressiveness
*Ryan was thirsty
*Biden was more relaxed, more seasoned
*Ryan did better on foreign policy
*Biden did better on the economy/deficit
*Abortion...tie
*Defense....tie, Biden maybe a bit stronger
*Healthcare...Biden
*Ryan was REALLY thirsty
*Biden's story about his wife/daughter was sad (never knew that)
*Story about Romney helping the family was touching
*Ryan does very well when talking about Romney
*Ryan talked more about Romney/Biden more about himself
*Biden didn't thank Ryan/Ryan thanked Biden
*Ryan's wife looks like she's 12 (but cute!).
I'm sure there is a bunch more, but that's my knee-jerk reaction/take on the debate. In comparison to the debate last week, Biden did very well for the dems. Overall, I'd say Biden did slightly better on preparedness and orgnaization, and speaking "off the cuff", but acted poorly a good bit of the time. Hard to say what the undecided people will think, like SM said, that's who matters in these kinds of things. We already have our minds made up.
It was a good one, I enjoyed watching it!
I had NO snacks! :0(
Thanks Mrs.P.
I have been sitting here trying to pinpoint exactly why I don't like Ryan and I think I know what it is.
His stance on social issues like abortion and gay marriage are obvious ones for me. I just could not vote for someone who would attempt to illegalize abortion or keep marriage only between men and women (again, I have no issue with what peoples personal feelings on these topics are, only what they try to legislate).
But the other part of it his very strong language when it comes to war in the Middle East. I agree with him that a nuclear armed Iran would be a worse case scenario, but I feel like he is about war first, talk later. I do like Biden (and of course Obama's) way of dealing with this issue much better, and their stance that war is the worst case scenario. and only when all else fails. I totally disagree that that stance makes the US look weak. Quite the contrary actually. I can't help but feel that they would drag the US (and it's allies) right back into another war.
And then I thought Ryan contradicted himself on the issue of the military. On one hand, he said that he would increase marines presence in Libya, but then later on talked about decreasing troops, and other military funding. Maybe I just didn't understand him, but that confused me a great deal.
I tried to look at this as if I had a vote, and if I was undecided. I can't honestly say that Ryan did or said anything to take me over to the right, but not sure I can say Biden said much of anything to take me left either. Still, I came out of this feeling better about the left then the right. That's me trying to be unbiased..ha.
I have been sitting here trying to pinpoint exactly why I don't like Ryan and I think I know what it is.
His stance on social issues like abortion and gay marriage are obvious ones for me. I just could not vote for someone who would attempt to illegalize abortion or keep marriage only between men and women (again, I have no issue with what peoples personal feelings on these topics are, only what they try to legislate).
But the other part of it his very strong language when it comes to war in the Middle East. I agree with him that a nuclear armed Iran would be a worse case scenario, but I feel like he is about war first, talk later. I do like Biden (and of course Obama's) way of dealing with this issue much better, and their stance that war is the worst case scenario. and only when all else fails. I totally disagree that that stance makes the US look weak. Quite the contrary actually. I can't help but feel that they would drag the US (and it's allies) right back into another war.
And then I thought Ryan contradicted himself on the issue of the military. On one hand, he said that he would increase marines presence in Libya, but then later on talked about decreasing troops, and other military funding. Maybe I just didn't understand him, but that confused me a great deal.
I tried to look at this as if I had a vote, and if I was undecided. I can't honestly say that Ryan did or said anything to take me over to the right, but not sure I can say Biden said much of anything to take me left either. Still, I came out of this feeling better about the left then the right. That's me trying to be unbiased..ha.
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