Aa
Chronic Gastritis?
I would just like to know if anyone here has ever been diagnosed with chronic gastritis?
Last year and endoscope revealed gastritis due to h-pylori. All meds were taken and a year later no relief. So last friday I went and had another endoscope and the biopsy reavealed no bacteria, BUT showed "Chronic Gastritis". So far the way my doctor has been treating it hasn't worked.... AT ALL.
Mainly just antacids. I'll be looking soon for another gastro doctor, BUT would love to speak with other people who have had this to see how they were treated and if they ever got better. It's such a painful thing to have and mentally it has drained me. Any input would be so gratful. Much Thanks!
Last year and endoscope revealed gastritis due to h-pylori. All meds were taken and a year later no relief. So last friday I went and had another endoscope and the biopsy reavealed no bacteria, BUT showed "Chronic Gastritis". So far the way my doctor has been treating it hasn't worked.... AT ALL.
Mainly just antacids. I'll be looking soon for another gastro doctor, BUT would love to speak with other people who have had this to see how they were treated and if they ever got better. It's such a painful thing to have and mentally it has drained me. Any input would be so gratful. Much Thanks!
Were the meds you took antibiotics? I was on courses of antibiotics and afterwards I was left with the most chronic stomach pain, worse after I ate. I tried everything (antacids, etc) but nothing worked. It turned out that due to the meds I was on, there was an imbalance of the good bacteria in my gut, so it was incredibly difficult to digest anything, (hence pain). I went to the health shop and got "probiotic" powder for drinks to replace the good bacteria and the pain is getting MUCH better, after just a few days. Best of luck!
I am so thankful to see this message. I having been trying to post a similar message for weeks and everytime I try it says they can take no more messages. I too suffer from Chronic Gastritis. I have been to MANY doctors desperately seeking answers and help. I am 30 and this is not normal at my age. We have done a lot of testing, but still just come up with the Gastritis. I have been on Nexium and Carafate for a yr. It keeps me alive, but I hate taking meds all the time and looks to me like I will be on them the rest of my life. I don't think people can comprehend how horrible this can be...especially doctors. They don't seem to be real concerned. The medical books must say "minor illness". I disagree! I had a low grade fever with mine for years. It just broke last month. I still have the Gastritis, but it is a little better. I think the key to this little bit of healing was that I discovered a way to get vitamins in my body without it damaging my stomach. I take any sublingual vitamins I can get my hands on (mainly complex B). Most important is the Met-Rx Peanut Butter Cookie Dough Flavor Food Replacement Bar(eat it with your meal). It it packed full of vitamins and protein. It is the only one I tried that didn't make my situation worse. It has given me energy and changed my life. Another very important key is SLEEP. Your stomach's healing power is 300 times stronger while we sleep. I think it is TFF2 or something close to that which actually works to restore the stomach lining while we are sleeping. I really didn't sleep the first year. I was in too much pain. Now I am sleeping 7-8 hrs nightly. What a difference it makes. If you can't sleep and of course doctors hand you pills so you can take it on a empty stomach and make it worse...... try sublingual Melatonin. I don't take it unless I have to, but we have to do whatever it takes because the docs are no help with this. I have one or two test left to rule out. We are going to rule out Colitis, because I do have lower problems too. There is also a possibility of auto-immune which would explain my fever. If it weren't for my faith, I think I would be dead. Please stay in touch. It is good to have contact with someone who can understand this horrible illness.
PS...
On the Food Replacement Bar try to find the orginal bar in a white label. The new Big 100 has been altered and is less tolerable. I have been buying them out within a 50 mile radius.
On the Food Replacement Bar try to find the orginal bar in a white label. The new Big 100 has been altered and is less tolerable. I have been buying them out within a 50 mile radius.
speaking of chronic gastritis. has anyone ever told you exactly what causes this?? even when i eat very mild foods like yogurt or jello, i throw them up. sometimes, first thing in the morning, without any food, i just throw up something....not exactly sure what it is. about the low grade fever, my sister has had this for years. no gastric problems but they tested her for lupus and it was positive. good luck to all of us. these g.i. problems suck so i know how you feel.
It can be caused by certain (acidic and fatty) foods over time, Helio-Bacteria, several autoimmune diseases can cause it, back-up of bile, certain meds (aspirin). It really does suck... If you haven't seen a Dr. you really need to. The sooner the better. I have always felt nauseated with it, but I haven't done a lot of vomiting. Most people do however. In the beginning before I got on the meds, even bland food hurt me also. I basically didn't eat for a couple of weeks. I lost a lot of weight fast. I hope you don't have it. Good Luck
I AM BACK TO EATING JELLO, YOGURT, OATMEAL AND SHERBERT. I AM ALSO WONDERING IF THIS COULD BE GALLBLADDER RELATED. THE OTHER NIGHT I HAD A BIG SALAD AND ATE A TON OF BLACK OLIVES. I FORGOT THAT THEY ARE REALLY HIGH IN FAT. THE NEXT DAY, I WAS VOMITING MOST OF THE DAY AND JUST FELT REALLY CRAPPY. CAN YOU HAVE A GALLBLADDER PROBLEM WITHOUT STONES? I HAVE ONLY HAD AN ULTRASOUND AND SOME BLOOD WORK FOR THAT. THEY SAY GALLBLADDER PROBLEMS ARE VERY HARD TO PINPOINT. EVER HEARD OF BILIARY GASTRITIS? I JUST FIND IT HARD TO BELIEVE THAT REFLUX CAN MAKE SOMEONE SOOOOOOO SICK??!!
Have you had a hida scan done? It shows what percentage of your gallbladder is functioning. You need to have this done if nothing shows on the ultrasound. As for Gastritis, I could not even eat the foods you mentioned. Jello has Citric Acid and Oatmeal is hard to digest. There is no way I would eat salad or olives. Are the doctors just trying to find out what is wrong or do you know that you have Gastritis?
HI, THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE. NO, I HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD I HAVE GASTRITIS. THESE PROBLEMS STARTED 5 YEARS AGO AND BACK THEN I HAD AN ENDOSCOPY, PH/MOTILITY TEST ,GASTRIC EMPTYING TEST...ALL OF WHICH WERE POSITIVE FOR REFLUX. LIVED WITH IT FOR 5 YEARS..NO MEDS, CANNOT TOLERATE THE SIDE EFFECTS OF NEXIUM ETC. STARTED VOMITING WITH SEVERE NAUSEA ALL THE TIME BACK IN NOV. HAD AN U.G.I, SHOWED REFLUX AND THE 24 HR PH/MOTILITY AGAIN. THE 24 HR. PART THIS TIME SAID IT WAS WITHIN NORMAL LIMITS???!!! I DOUBT THE REFLUX FIXED ITSELF. SOMEONE SAID ITS THE MOTILITY PART AND THE LES FUNCTION THAT ARE MOST IMPORTANT AND I HAVE YET TO GET THOSE RESULTS BACK. AM SEEING ANOTHER G.I.DOC ON WED. TO DISCUSS THE ENDOCINCH PROCEDURE TO FIX THE REFLUX, BUT IF THE VALVE PRESSURE COMES BACK OKAY, I AM SKREWED. THAT'S WHY I AM BACK TO RESEARCHING GALLBLADDER PROBLEMS TOO. MY OWN G.I. DR. SAYS HE IS NOT 100% SURE MY GALLBLADDER IS NOT ALSO INVOLVED. SO, THAT'S THE GRUESOME STORY HA HA HA. I FEEL SOMEWHAT FORTUNATE THAT I AM IN THE MEDICAL FIELD MYSELF AND HAVE KNOWN AND WORKED WITH MY G.I. DR. FOR YEARS. HE WOULD NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS TRY TO PASS OFF THE IT'S ALL IN YOUR HEAD THING. THE THOUGHTS OF MORE TESTS ARE EXHAUSTING, BUT A HIDA SCAN DOESN'T SEEM SO BAD. NOTHING IS AS BRUTAL AS THAT 24 HR. TEST. ANYWAY, THANKS SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SHARE YOUR INSIGHTS WITH ME. THESE G.I. PROBLEMS SURE DO STINK, BUT WHAT CHOICE DO WE HAVE BUT TO HANG IN THERE AND DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO FEEL AT LEAST SUB HUMAN.
I too have had the 24 HR PH/MOTILITY. 2 wks before the test my reflux was soooo bad I was trying to sleep standing up against my dresser. Sad, but true. I became desperate. The 40 mg of Nexium caused some bad side effects with me also, but I had to do something. I discovered that I could open the pill and take smaller dosages. I just dumped half of it out (and I still do). Long story short... by the time I took the test, the Nexium had made a pretty big difference. I was beginning to think that I was crazy. You are lucky to have a doc. that knows you. Most of my docs look at me like "oh no, here comes the crazy woman again". I don't give up though. I will keep bugging them as long as I have to.
I hope you find the source to your problem soon. Vomiting is a big concern.
I hope you find the source to your problem soon. Vomiting is a big concern.
I too feel as if I bother the doctor. So sorry the meds did not help. I did not find relief after trying Nexium for 6 weeks and have lost weight. The chronic stomach aches and pains are chronic and my diet is still very bland to keep heartburn at bay. Oh the tummy troubles.
It sounds like we are in the same boat. I wish I could offer more hope, but it sounds like there are few answers to this. My belief is the only reason I have survived and this has made me a stronger person. I don't give-up. I get each morning and I pray each day. If you hear of any miracle meds let me know.
I too pray daily and continue to live a healthy lifestyle even though my stomach is not back to itself yet.
Have you tried any hollistic approaches like accuppuncture?
Or DGL?
This board is so well informed, I wish we all felt better
Have you tried any hollistic approaches like accuppuncture?
Or DGL?
This board is so well informed, I wish we all felt better
yea, I saw a reflexologist. He is a famous local Chinese Dr. I think it helped some of my problems, but I tell you this Gastritis thing is not easy to beat. DGL didn't do a thing to help. Carafate and Nexium over time have helped, I just wish it would allow me 100% recovery. :)
The DGL did not help?
what Chinese herbs did you use ?
The carafate did not soothe for me and made me very dizzy.
What test showed your Gastritis conclusively ?
Do Tums help ?
What would cause stomach ache pain ? Is that acid when acid drugs don't relieve it. Feel as if I have the flu chronically
what Chinese herbs did you use ?
The carafate did not soothe for me and made me very dizzy.
What test showed your Gastritis conclusively ?
Do Tums help ?
What would cause stomach ache pain ? Is that acid when acid drugs don't relieve it. Feel as if I have the flu chronically
THANK GOD!! That's all I have to say ;-) I've been EVERYWHERE on the web and absolutely forget that I posted here. Lastnight I came upon it again. Up until now I was really begining to think that I was truly the only one suffering with this. In a way it's nice to see that I'm finally not alone. In one sense anyway. Now I don't know where to start!
It's been about two years now that I have have had this pain. When my doctor diagnosed it last year it was simply gastritis. I was only given one course of antibiotics. Ever since it's been just acid reducers which for me arn't working. Three weeks ago I had another endoscope along with the breath test and was told both were negative for the bacteria. I've been doing so much research and reading that I've learned a lot. The main thing I've learned is I'm NOT giving up and I'm NOT living with this. I refuse to be told that. Gastritis is caused by SOMETHING. There are so many different bacterias that could cause chronic gastritis and in my research and journal readings, gastritis isn't something that should be left alone. The cause has to be found and SHOULD be. I've also read that when the correct cause is found, gastritis will indeed clear up...For good! So I'm on a mission ;-)
I'll be seeing another doctor in two weeks and I can't wait. So far the only tests that were performed on me by my current doctor are, abdominal ct-scan as well as ultra sound. PM, I've heard you mention that you've gone through loads of testing. I would love to hear what they were. Perhaps I could mention them to my doctor. PM, you are DEFINITELY correct about one thing. We are definitely TOO young for this condition. It's not normal. It's fuuny, you and I are taking the same medication. At least one anyway. I was given carafate and famotidine. The carafate I stopped. It made me way too constipated and I just didn't trust the long term use. Still nothing has really helped me. I have to ask you a question about symptoms. It seems as though my main symptoms and complaints aren't really normal (as per my doctor)
for gastritis. My main complaint is this. Whenever I stand for longer than 5min the pain starts and I have to sit. If I walk for too long I'll have to stop. It's almost like a dull pain begins deep in the pit of my stomach and I'll also begin to get out of breath. Does this sound familiar at all in any way? This is the number one thing that gets me. I'm thankful I have others here to share my pain with. It's nice to know we're not all alone. Sorry this is so lengthy. It's SO nice to know there are others to share with.
Look foward to hearing from everyone,
-Jenifer
It's been about two years now that I have have had this pain. When my doctor diagnosed it last year it was simply gastritis. I was only given one course of antibiotics. Ever since it's been just acid reducers which for me arn't working. Three weeks ago I had another endoscope along with the breath test and was told both were negative for the bacteria. I've been doing so much research and reading that I've learned a lot. The main thing I've learned is I'm NOT giving up and I'm NOT living with this. I refuse to be told that. Gastritis is caused by SOMETHING. There are so many different bacterias that could cause chronic gastritis and in my research and journal readings, gastritis isn't something that should be left alone. The cause has to be found and SHOULD be. I've also read that when the correct cause is found, gastritis will indeed clear up...For good! So I'm on a mission ;-)
I'll be seeing another doctor in two weeks and I can't wait. So far the only tests that were performed on me by my current doctor are, abdominal ct-scan as well as ultra sound. PM, I've heard you mention that you've gone through loads of testing. I would love to hear what they were. Perhaps I could mention them to my doctor. PM, you are DEFINITELY correct about one thing. We are definitely TOO young for this condition. It's not normal. It's fuuny, you and I are taking the same medication. At least one anyway. I was given carafate and famotidine. The carafate I stopped. It made me way too constipated and I just didn't trust the long term use. Still nothing has really helped me. I have to ask you a question about symptoms. It seems as though my main symptoms and complaints aren't really normal (as per my doctor)
for gastritis. My main complaint is this. Whenever I stand for longer than 5min the pain starts and I have to sit. If I walk for too long I'll have to stop. It's almost like a dull pain begins deep in the pit of my stomach and I'll also begin to get out of breath. Does this sound familiar at all in any way? This is the number one thing that gets me. I'm thankful I have others here to share my pain with. It's nice to know we're not all alone. Sorry this is so lengthy. It's SO nice to know there are others to share with.
Look foward to hearing from everyone,
-Jenifer
Just wanted to answer your questions...
No DGL didn't help. Anything that hits my stomach without the meds causes more discomfort and problems. That doesn't mean it will not work for you though.
The Carafate made me dizzy too for the first couple of months, but my body adjusted.
My Gastritis was diagnosed through endoscope (sp?) I had the helio- bacteria in 1996 and underwent the treatment of antibotics and used prevacid along with them. I did recover for awhile, but was never really the same. Then in Jan. 2001 it came back 2 fold. 1996 was nothing compared to this pain and it is still with me almost 1 1/2yrs. later.
I take Tums in addition to my current meds on the really bad days. It can give some refief, but I try not to take them a lot because they can cause bad constipation (another of my wonderful friends).
Bile can cause some of the same problems as acid, but mine is definetly acid. We did the 24 hr PH test. Apparently, my acid likes to live in my throat also. I have sores in my throat from reflux.
I can relate to your flu comment. It is as if you are always fighting something. As I mentioned in the earlier posting, the Met-Rx bars made a big difference. It was the first time that I could get some real vitamins in my body. I mean, I haven't had fruits or many vegs. in over a yr. Your body needs those vitamins.
Oops, missed one. Haven't tried Chinese Herbs. Someone told me of a herb they purchased in China called Vitamin U. This friend said it did wonders, but I can't find it in the States. No one has heard of it. No luck searching the internet either.
Hope this helps....
No DGL didn't help. Anything that hits my stomach without the meds causes more discomfort and problems. That doesn't mean it will not work for you though.
The Carafate made me dizzy too for the first couple of months, but my body adjusted.
My Gastritis was diagnosed through endoscope (sp?) I had the helio- bacteria in 1996 and underwent the treatment of antibotics and used prevacid along with them. I did recover for awhile, but was never really the same. Then in Jan. 2001 it came back 2 fold. 1996 was nothing compared to this pain and it is still with me almost 1 1/2yrs. later.
I take Tums in addition to my current meds on the really bad days. It can give some refief, but I try not to take them a lot because they can cause bad constipation (another of my wonderful friends).
Bile can cause some of the same problems as acid, but mine is definetly acid. We did the 24 hr PH test. Apparently, my acid likes to live in my throat also. I have sores in my throat from reflux.
I can relate to your flu comment. It is as if you are always fighting something. As I mentioned in the earlier posting, the Met-Rx bars made a big difference. It was the first time that I could get some real vitamins in my body. I mean, I haven't had fruits or many vegs. in over a yr. Your body needs those vitamins.
Oops, missed one. Haven't tried Chinese Herbs. Someone told me of a herb they purchased in China called Vitamin U. This friend said it did wonders, but I can't find it in the States. No one has heard of it. No luck searching the internet either.
Hope this helps....
Yes, I was wondering what happened to you. I think you, I,and a few others are in a small percentage of Chronic Gastritis suffers. It is good to hear you still have hope and are searching. I spend most of my free time trying to figure this thing out. I think the reason I have had so many test run is because of the fever. I have had the following in relation to Gastritis:
CT Scan of Abdomen.
3 Endoscope over last 5 yrs.
ultrasound of abdomen
hida scan
24 hr. ph test
Upper and lower GI
Having colonoscopy in 2 weeks (I have pain under my stomach too). The doc thinks maybe colotis could be the cause of my problems.
blood test checking gastrin levels, pancrease, liver, etc.
I do have a postive ANA which could mean autoimmune involvement, but I don't want speculation... I want answers and help.
I am running out of test, but I am thinking of (2) others I may request over the next yr. One that tests the amount of time it takes for food to leave your stomach (I saw something on this site about this condition). I am also thinking MRI. I have heard of some weird things being found on MRI as a last result. Such as an artery being clamped, so not enough blood was getting through. You would almost have to think that after so long this is something "out of the ordinary".
I have had your symptoms before, but it usually goes away after a few minutes or hours. At it's worst I have found that the excessive gas that comes with gastritis can be the most painful thing. How serious is your Gastritis? Can you eat more than bland foods? Are you weak? Are you able to keep your job? I have my job, but only because I have a good employer who is understanding.
I so desperately want this nightmare to end. I have actually been dreaming of eating normal foods. Please stay in touch and again it is great to have some understanding company. Is it against the policy on this site to give out personal email addresses? I have been to lazy to read it again.
Melissa
CT Scan of Abdomen.
3 Endoscope over last 5 yrs.
ultrasound of abdomen
hida scan
24 hr. ph test
Upper and lower GI
Having colonoscopy in 2 weeks (I have pain under my stomach too). The doc thinks maybe colotis could be the cause of my problems.
blood test checking gastrin levels, pancrease, liver, etc.
I do have a postive ANA which could mean autoimmune involvement, but I don't want speculation... I want answers and help.
I am running out of test, but I am thinking of (2) others I may request over the next yr. One that tests the amount of time it takes for food to leave your stomach (I saw something on this site about this condition). I am also thinking MRI. I have heard of some weird things being found on MRI as a last result. Such as an artery being clamped, so not enough blood was getting through. You would almost have to think that after so long this is something "out of the ordinary".
I have had your symptoms before, but it usually goes away after a few minutes or hours. At it's worst I have found that the excessive gas that comes with gastritis can be the most painful thing. How serious is your Gastritis? Can you eat more than bland foods? Are you weak? Are you able to keep your job? I have my job, but only because I have a good employer who is understanding.
I so desperately want this nightmare to end. I have actually been dreaming of eating normal foods. Please stay in touch and again it is great to have some understanding company. Is it against the policy on this site to give out personal email addresses? I have been to lazy to read it again.
Melissa
Yes, I was wondering what happened to you. I think you, I,and a few others are in a small percentage of Chronic Gastritis suffers. It is good to hear you still have hope and are searching. I spend most of my free time trying to figure this thing out. I think the reason I have had so many test run is because of the fever. I have had the following in relation to Gastritis:
CT Scan of Abdomen.
3 Endoscope over last 5 yrs.
ultrasound of abdomen
hida scan
24 hr. ph test
Upper and lower GI
Having colonoscopy in 2 weeks (I have pain under my stomach too). The doc thinks maybe colotis could be the cause of my problems.
blood test checking gastrin levels, pancrease, liver, etc.
I do have a postive ANA which could mean autoimmune involvement, but I don't want speculation... I want answers and help.
I am running out of test, but I am thinking of (2) others I may request over the next yr. One that tests the amount of time it takes for food to leave your stomach (I saw something on this site about this condition). I am also thinking MRI. I have heard of some weird things being found on MRI as a last result. Such as an artery being clamped, so not enough blood was getting through. You would almost have to think that after so long this is something "out of the ordinary".
I have had your symptoms before, but it usually goes away after a few minutes or hours. At it's worst I have found that the excessive gas that comes with gastritis can be the most painful thing. How serious is your Gastritis? Can you eat more than bland foods? Are you weak? Are you able to keep your job? I have my job, but only because I have a good employer who is understanding.
I so desperately want this nightmare to end. I have actually been dreaming of eating normal foods. Please stay in touch and again it is great to have some understanding company. Is it against the policy on this site to give out personal email addresses? I have been to lazy to read it again.
Melissa
CT Scan of Abdomen.
3 Endoscope over last 5 yrs.
ultrasound of abdomen
hida scan
24 hr. ph test
Upper and lower GI
Having colonoscopy in 2 weeks (I have pain under my stomach too). The doc thinks maybe colotis could be the cause of my problems.
blood test checking gastrin levels, pancrease, liver, etc.
I do have a postive ANA which could mean autoimmune involvement, but I don't want speculation... I want answers and help.
I am running out of test, but I am thinking of (2) others I may request over the next yr. One that tests the amount of time it takes for food to leave your stomach (I saw something on this site about this condition). I am also thinking MRI. I have heard of some weird things being found on MRI as a last result. Such as an artery being clamped, so not enough blood was getting through. You would almost have to think that after so long this is something "out of the ordinary".
I have had your symptoms before, but it usually goes away after a few minutes or hours. At it's worst I have found that the excessive gas that comes with gastritis can be the most painful thing. How serious is your Gastritis? Can you eat more than bland foods? Are you weak? Are you able to keep your job? I have my job, but only because I have a good employer who is understanding.
I so desperately want this nightmare to end. I have actually been dreaming of eating normal foods. Please stay in touch and again it is great to have some understanding company. Is it against the policy on this site to give out personal email addresses? I have been to lazy to read it again.
Melissa
If you'd like, e-mail me here and than I'll send you my e-mail address.
***@****
I'll fill you in on all the details ;)
***@****
I'll fill you in on all the details ;)
I am new here i posted a comment but must not have went through. Ihave had same problems as all u r not alone! Been going through this since i was about 15 yrs old now i am 29.
Good luck to u all and i am glad i am not alone.
Good luck to u all and i am glad i am not alone.
Suggested to try Aciphex and Elavil for pain.
How can it burn in ones throat and stomach for so many hours. Unfortunately I could not achieve extreme pain with Ph 20 hr. test, I could only eat a little as always and it recorded acid But nothing like those tearful days.
Why do our stomachs do this and why can't they heal if we follow all the data suggested ?
Anyone try Acupuncture? Or a ND ?
I wanted to try Prilosec But told if Nexium did not help then it would not either ?
Thanks
How can it burn in ones throat and stomach for so many hours. Unfortunately I could not achieve extreme pain with Ph 20 hr. test, I could only eat a little as always and it recorded acid But nothing like those tearful days.
Why do our stomachs do this and why can't they heal if we follow all the data suggested ?
Anyone try Acupuncture? Or a ND ?
I wanted to try Prilosec But told if Nexium did not help then it would not either ?
Thanks
If nex. didn't work, most likely priol will not either. None help for me. They say the cause is do to a bacteria that is not being found. I've read this in one of the journals. It also states that gastritis should not be treated with antacids, BUT antibiotics instead! I'll be bring all of these articles with me to new gastro. doctor. I am NOT giving up ;-)
Hello ...
Just wondering which site did you find the info. about other bacteria?
thanks
Just wondering which site did you find the info. about other bacteria?
thanks
15 years! Please don't say that. I feel so bad for you. Have you been on meds. this whole time? How are you still alive? Your input is much needed.
You are reading content posted in the Digestive Disorders / Gastroenterology Forum
Learn which OTC medications can help relieve your digestive troubles.
Is a gluten-free diet right for you?
Discover common causes of and remedies for heartburn.
This common yet mysterious bowel condition plagues millions of Americans
Don't get burned again. Banish nighttime heartburn with these quick tips
Get answers to your top questions about this pervasive digestive problem
