Damage to other organs due to excessive opiate abuse?

[ChiTownGirl]

This question is for the Doctor.  What damage can be done to other organs, besides the liver, from long term opiate abuse?  Are there any warning signs that we are doing damage and need to stop immediately?

[Rex1]

For those who took me up on my challenge - guess what?

Week three is complete, with one more to go!

Everyone needs to be especially tough during the next week when the stress will be high, and the temptation strong.

What a "New" year it will be.

Way to go everyone!!!!

Rex

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

REX-YOU HAVE BEEN SUCH AN INSPIRATION TO ME-I HAD TO GO COLD TURKEY 7 DAYS AGO AND SO FAR SO GOOD THANKS TO THE THOMAS RECIPE AND THE POSTS ON THIS FORUM--AS FAR AS DAMAGE DUE TO THE OPIATES--I THINK MORE HARM IS DONE BY THE ACETAMINOPHEN--I WAS TO THE POINT MY ANKLES AND LEGS WERE SWELLING SO BAD I KNEW IN MY HEART THAT MY LIVER COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH MY EXCESSIVE INGESTION. NOW THANK GOD THEY ARE BACK TO NORMAL. I HOPE AND PRAY EVERYONE COMPLETES THE TAPER CHALLENGE--I HAD TO GO COLD TURKEY--I DID NOT POSESS THE DISCIPLINE TO TAPER--IT WAS ALWAYS AFTER THIS NEXT RX I WILL TAPER.  MY HOPES AND PRAYERS ARE WITH YOU ALL--TO A NEW YEAR AND A NEW LIFE--LOVE AND PEACE-N.O. LADY

[flashk]

Hey ReX!
How is everything? I have 9 days opiate/drug/alcohol free today! Every day that passes gives me a little bit of myself and my life back. I hope everyone receives the same christmas/ New Year miracle that I was givin. Freedom from the opiate madness. I cannot thank everyone here enough for thier support and stories which are a true help.
thank you
flash

[suzieneedshelp]

WEll as you may remember i relapsed but i have to do it cold turkey starting this Thursday after christmas.  So..Pray fo r me a cuz this will be it!  No more stadol left after that!
thanks and Merry Christmas to all!
Suzie

[hellbent]

Supposedly, opiates don't overload and poison organs like tylenol does. However, they seem to cause some real problems that may be just as bad. Chronic constipation is a killer, and can cause all kinds of disease, including colon cancer. when you are constipated, I have read that you don't metabolise most of the vitamins and nutrients that you consume. I know that I had all kinds of health issues when was on Oxycontin (granted, I was taking many times more the amount than anyone, even a terminal patient, would be prescribed). But my leg would fall asleep, and I had skin problems, including some benign growths that I had to have removed. I am normally very healthy with very few health problems. My system was overloaded by the opiates, and couldn't process much or cleanse itself. Long term, this is a real health risk and I believe that it can indirectly lead to any number of health / organ problems.

[teeitup]

N.O. Lady - way to go!

Suzie - Just enjoy Christmas, don't worry about the set back. You'll do it!

teeitup!

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE SUPPORT--IT IS UNBELIEVEABLE HOW MUCH IT MEANS ESPECIALLY AT THIS POINT IN MY WITHDRAWAL/BEGINNING RECOVERY. I'M STILL DEALING WITH THE MALAISE THAT SEEMS TO HIT AT THE MOST INAPPROPRIATE TIME--ALTHOUGH I DO THINK THE L-TYROSINE IS HELPING. JUST BEING ABLE TO COME TO THIS SIGHT HAS GOTTEN ME THROUGH THE LAST 7 DAYS--ALSO THERE SEEMS TO BE GREATER FORCE AT WORK HERE AND I'M NOT A PARTICULARLY RELIGIOUS PERSON--I WILL TELL YOU IT IS NOTHING SHORT OF A MIRACLE--MUCH PEACE AND ESPECIALLY HOPE AND LOVE TO EVERYONE--YOU ARE ALL A GODSEND!

[theGolden1]

I don't know which of the painkillers have tylenol and which ones don't .... except the obvious like tylenol3. Also, which ones have alot of tylenol and the ones with just a little. If anyone can post a website on this or help me out. If I need to take any .... I want to use as little tylenol as possible. Thanks .. (notice I said IF ...) I am so grateful for all the testimonials here ... now if I just had the guts and a place to hide for 2 weeks. Can a person use plain tylenol or motrin during withdrawal? It has to do something ... especially in therapudic doses ... any information is appreciated.

[Thomas02]

Since our doc here is not an MD anyway, I can tell you what I've learned studying the latest literature -- at least the latest to be translated for laymen. The liver is principally affected by the additives in pain pills -- chiefly, tylenol. But I'm sure you knew that.

The other organ damaged by long-term opiate use is, unfortunately, the brain. Over time, the brain physically changes to adapt to the constant presence of opiates. When the opiates are withdrawn, the brain cannot function normally. This is why so many of us frequently say we are using simply to feel normal. Non-users think we're using the word normal instead of high. But the latest research tells us we are more correct that we could ever know. Researchers compare the brains of long-term opiate addicts to that of stroke victims. Without the continued use of opiates, the long-term addict must struggle as a stroke victim struggles to utilize new neural pathways to achieve a semblance of normality.

I have used opiates contantly for 30, no, 31 years. There is no way back for me. 31 years of changes in my brain cannot be undone by all the 12-step meetings in the world. My doom is sealed by my physiology. That is why, as much as I don't like the idea, I am applying for methadone maintenance. Detox for me is a waste of time. I've detoxed myself 50 times and, each time, there I sit, with a brain that can no longer function without opiates. Time does not heal all things.

I tell this story, probably too often, because for many on this forum, the way back is still open. From the point at which one begins recovery, the great dramas and opportunities of life expand in all directions to infinity. Don't throw away your chance to play a role in the world as I have.

Thomas

[movingon]

Hello,

I'm planning on going into an inpatient detox soon for a 2 year 80 mg Oxy/100 mg hydro habit. I'm told I'll be on Buprenex, clonidine and maybe librium. I've heard several references to the Thomas recipe and pieces of it but don't know exactley what it is. Can someone tell me where to find it or what it is?  Also, is this something I can do while I'm still inpatient or begin once I'm out.  I'm looking for all the help I can get.  
Thanks for any help and encouragement.


movingon

[NEW ORLEANS LADY]

MOST AND I DO MEAN MOST OF THE HYDROCODONE PREPARATIONS CONTAIN SOME AMOUNT OF ACETAMINOPHEN (TYLENOL)--ALTHOUGH THE AMOUNTS CAN VARY CONSIDERABLY--MY DRUG OF CHOICE WAS CALLED ZYDONE10/400 WHICH MEANS IT CONTAIN 10MGS OF HYDROCODONE AND 400 MGS OF TYLENOL--THIS IS CONSIDERED A SMALL DOSE--BECAUSE FOR EXAMPLE VICODEN E.S. CONTAINS 750 MG. OF TYLENOL PER PILL--VICODEN,LORTAB,LORCET,PERCOCET,TYLOX THESE ALL HAVE SOME AMOUNT OF TYLENOL--THERE ARE MEDS THAT DO NOT CONTAIN TYLENOL--OXYCONTIN-DEMERAL--PERCODAN (CONTAINS ASPIRIN)--I HOPE THIS INFO WILL BE OF SOME HELP--FOR ME THEY ARE ALL DEADLY--WHEN I THINK BACK AT HOW MUCH I CONSUMED IT IS A MIRACLE I STILL HAVE A LIVER. LOVE PEACE AND TO A NEW YEAR NEW LIFE-- N.O. LADY

[Jennibean]

There are many different strengths of tylenol and other additives in some pain meds. Just to name a few Vicodin 5/500 means it has 5mg hydrocodone and 500mg tylenol. There are also different names, lortab, vicodin, norco etc all hydrocodone with different brand names. Vicodin Es has 5/750 , lortab comes in 5/500 and 5/750, norco is the best at 10/325. Percocet comes in 5/325, 7.5/325 and 10/325. There is Oxy ir which is percocet with no tylenol. Oxycontin ahs no tylenol and I am on oxyfast which is liquid percocet with no tylenol. I think these are the most common pain meds used. Tylenol is a dangerous drug and sadly MANY people don't know it. I had a friend who recently took 25 lortab 5/750 2 days in a row. She almost lost her life, her eyes were the color of the yellow on the phone book, her scalp was orange and she was in and out of coma. She has a damaged liver but luckily is alive to talk about it. Even after that happening just several weeks ago she struggles to stay clean. Tylenol aka acetominophen can cause liver failue and death. You just never know when you are going to hit that lethal dose as it goes by weight so it is different for everybody. Tylenol extra strength 500mg warns not to take more than 8 in a day which is 4 grams. I have heard an estimate that 7.5 grams can lead to overdose in an average weight person. I know that rarely overdoses happen under 10grams and lethally most around 15 grams. this is in a 24 hour period. This is what I have read and discussed with my own Dr but again if you are very thin it may take much less. Also long term regular use under these amounts is now found to cause some liver damage so if you take it everyday even in small amounts you are at risk. I know that my liver enzymes get elevated when I am taking pain meds with tylenol because I have had them checked when I have been worried. Also the thing with tylenol overdose there is an antidote but it must be given with in hours of the overdose and usually a tylenol overdose doesn't even show symptoms for a couple days at which point the damage has already been done. Anyway this is what I have learned and I have to tell you it has always scared the hell out of me. If Dr's are going to prescribe pain meds for an extended period they should really use the ones with no tylenol. sadly alot of addicts go to many Dr's who don't know what we are doing and don't realize we are taking so many from so many Dr's so they use pain meds with high amounts of tylenol.

Jen

[saveyourself]

Thomas,
Read your post. I really don't know what to say except, for one thanks for the recipe and your honessty. I am fairly sure you are that Thomas. If not this still applies. As for your post, it is the most hardcore appraisal of long term opiate use I have ever read. Thanks for who you are, what you do for people on this board and what you have done for me.  I am on day 16, still getting interupted sleep, 3 o4 hrs, then up all day.  I am starting to go for walks at 5 in the morning and working out a little bit each day.  I do hit one NA meeting a day.  That is my life, no energy for my wife and kids.  Major guilt and shame. By 10am I am exhausted and fatigue.  Can't sleep. so I spend alot of time on the board. I have read many of your posts.

I know in the next few weeks ,months my strength will return as long as I don;t pick up. Drugs have done a lot of damage to me personslly snd physically.  I am 44 and my body cannot handle the abuse.  7 years clean in NA then stopped the program and quiting for 60 or 90 days before relapsing for the last five years have probably saved me from the fate you are facing.  A man's got to do what a man's got to do.  You have helped more people than you will ever know, so if methadone maintence will work for you.  God Bless you, but please keep posting here.  Your unique way of conveying hope to the suffering is needed.  With your permission I would like to print your post and put on my wall next to my computer to remind me of what could very easily be me if I choose to use.  I will also pray for another way for you and if it is not to be I will pray you live long and prosper.
Strength and Honor
Greg

[hippy]

you seem to still have a true gift for writeing,
you wrot a few paragraphs last month about the maraposa
aituation, i must say they were the most elequent i have
ever read in the year i have been here.
you receipe as you know has help me and others,
im sure you will reap positve thing because of
your contrabution of the receipe.
please excuse my poor speelling, it is one of my
weaker points, i m just a contruction worker
who loves to read. i also love being clean.

peace. and thanks agian.

[hellbent]

I'd like to tell you that there is a way back, that given enough time and work you can have a relatively healthy mind again, but I don't have that kind of long term experience you do on the stuff, so I can't.

I have used for maybe 5-6 years steadily in my life. It's been 7-1/2 months since my last opiate, and I know I am not all the way back. I still struggle with articulating verbally. I often can't dredge up the word I want to say in a conversation. I feel words and ideas on the tip of my tongue, but cannot get them out gracefully. It has gotten much much better. I still don't sleep well. My mind is simply not very crisp. I pick up a book I was reading the night before, and can't remember the storyline like I should.

I have to believe that I haven't damaged myself beyond repair, haven't lost the ability to produce at a high level. I have to trust it will continue to return, or I may give way to despair, and use again. And I just can't use opiates. I get so damn obsessed with them, they rule everything, and I can never take enough. I need to get higher and higher and higher, and end up on ridiculously irresponsible doses.

Anyway, thanks for the honesty. I know we've had major differences here before, but I was really touched by your post.

[Rex1]

Help me from relapsing.

My back hurts so badly today, my whole body aches. The vikes are calling my name guys........

Rex

[Thomas02]

Thank you for your eloquent and incisive reply. I truly believe that it is empathetic (and even not so empathetic) contact with fellow addicts on this and other forums that keeps me from a life on the streets, bereft of family, job, home and hope. You're correct; I am most humbly the Thomas of the recipe, which benefited not only from my own limitless opportunities to refine self-detox methods, but also from many, many addicts from all over the world who selflessly contributed their own knowledge and experience.

Of course, you may reprint my original post and use it in any way that suits you.

Just don't waste any pity on the likes of me. I fell in love with opiates the first time I used them and have pursued this affair with a ruthlessness that would impress the ghosts of Hitler and Stalin. I have become what I am by my own hand. That I did it for love only suggests that I may have a genetic predisposition for opiate addiction, or some psychological defect that only opiates can correct. After 3 decades, I still don't really know ...

But addiction or no, there is much joy in my life. As I write this, I'm listening to Beethoven's miraculous transition from the second movement to the scherzo of his 5th piano concerto. Gloria, in Excelsius Deo! Take care and best of luck in your own struggle.

Thomas

[Thomas02]

Hot baths, Rex, with a valium chaser. My best shot, sorry.

Thomas

[Jennibean]

You have come too far sweetie! nobody said it was going to be easy and you know that. I know many people who suffer with terrible pain yet they never pick up a narcotic. Our problem is that we think narcotics fix everything. Narcotics are for acute horrible pain like that after major surgery. If you have a back ache today and I know you do. I also have major back problems. Do everything you can. Tell the world to screw off if they ask anything from you today and get in the tub, put a heating pad or bag of frozen veggies on your back which ever works best. Rent a great movie and lay in bed and watch it, help get your mind off of it. Take something for inflamation like 800mg of ibuprofen, fact is it actually works better alot of times for back pain because it reduces inflamation and inflamation is usually the part of the back problem causing most of the pain. Most people in this world do not even think to take a vicodin if their back is hurting bad for a day or few. You have said your back was bearable lately so if this is your first really bad day don't turn to drugs. I can see it getting harder if say this back ache continues for weeks but for today do everything else but don't take a narcotic. We reach for them too quickly for all reasons because that is what we do, most people do not.You know you have messed up your body's own endorphins for pain. They quit working because you replaced them with opiates for so long. The only chance you have for your body to heal and one day work again on it's own for pain is to stay away from opiates. Do you know depending on how long and how much you use that can take 6-18 months? We abused our bodies and because of that we must suffer with pain until we beat this. Most of us started on these meds because of pain and so most of us will have the same issue you are having today. but we must do other things for the pain like the rest of the world does. I am sorry if I sound harsh and I have no business telling you this when I took 10 percocet an hour ago but I care about you, ALOT!!! You will always have this problem until you get you back fixed which may be impossible so how are you going to deal with it? You better see a good Dr and get a plan before you set youself up to fail my friend. I am signing off right now and saying a prayer for you. Please don't do it. Your spirit is going to hurt if you do, you have worked so hard and put too much into this to give up over the first BAD backache but if you do I want to hear about it fast so that we can help you forgive yourself immediately so you don't use one relapse for pain as an excuse to say "screw it I messed up I might as well just do more now". So either way please let me know what you decided! I am very sorry your back hurts, a Couple months ago when I was clean I made it through a pulled tooth and dry socket without anything because I made myself. I knwo you can make yourself too. I have SO MUCH faith in you!
Love, Jen

[Thomas02]

Forgot to add something ... it sounds like you're experiencing the typical post-opiate withdrawal malaise. As bad as acute opiate withdrawal is, I find that the crushing lack of mental and physical energy causes more relapses than anything else. But there is a solution for most recovering addicts. Obviously, at this point, you don't need to use most of the recipe, but it sounds like you're ready for some L-Tyrosine. It's an amino acid available in any nutritional supply store that frequently brings recovering junkies back from the dead. It's cheap, safe and a naturally occuring substance we get in our diet every day. Spend 8 bucks and get 50 of the 500mg caps plus a bottle of B6. Upon rising, take, for starters, 1000 to 1500mgs of L-Tyrosine with a B6 to help absorption. Take it on an empty stomach. You don't need to take it other than first thing in the morning. The effect will last all day. L-Tyrosine stimulates the production of adrenalin which indirectly stimulates that part of the brain that produces the vital neurotransmitters that opiate use (or coke or speed) depletes. This lack of dopamine, norepinephrin and to a smaller extent, serotonin is why you feel the way you do. Don't drink caffeine with it. Believe me, if you take the dose right for you, you won't need any other stimulants. Besides a dramatic boost in energy, you'll experience a renewed mental clarity and relief from depression. You can take up to 4000mgs in the morning, but I recommend you try a much smaller dose and adjust up or down to suit you. If it gives you the jitters, lower the dose. Some also experience a fairly benign and short-lived diahrea in the first hour. This can also be regluated by lowering the dose.

Thomas

[Thomas02]

No. Don't use the recipe. With the bup, clonidine and Librium, you're getting probably the best detox money can buy. However, almost every recovering opiate addict, once home from the detox ward, experiences a post-withdrawal malaise, a total lack of mental and physical energy combined with intermittent depression. Once you're home from the detox, and if it doesn't conflict with any continuing therapy from your doctor, try the recipe's L-Tyrosine "pick me up." I just posted the info to saveyourself, so, if you don't mind, I'll just cut and paste the same copy here. Good luck.

As bad as acute opiate withdrawal is, I find that the crushing lack of mental and physical energy causes more relapses than anything else. But there is a solution for most recovering addicts. Obviously, at this point, you don't need to use most of the recipe, but it sounds like you're ready for some L-Tyrosine. It's an amino acid available in any nutritional supply store that frequently brings recovering junkies back from the dead. It's cheap, safe and a naturally occuring substance we get in our diet every day. Spend 8 bucks and get 50 of the 500mg caps plus a bottle of B6. Upon rising, take, for starters, 1000 to 1500mgs of L-Tyrosine with a B6 to help absorption. Take it on an empty stomach. You don't need to take it other than first thing in the morning. The effect will last all day. L-Tyrosine stimulates the production of adrenalin which indirectly stimulates that part of the brain that produces the vital neurotransmitters that opiate use (or coke or speed) depletes. This lack of dopamine, norepinephrin and to a smaller extent, serotonin is why you feel the way you do. Don't drink caffeine with it. Believe me, if you take the dose right for you, you won't need any other stimulants. Besides a dramatic boost in energy, you'll experience a renewed mental clarity and relief from depression. You can take up to 4000mgs in the morning, but I recommend you try a much smaller dose and adjust up or down to suit you. If it gives you the jitters, lower the dose. Some also experience a fairly benign and short-lived diahrea in the first hour. This can also be regluated by lowering the dose.

Thomas

[Thomas02]

You're not "just" anything by a long shot, my friend. For the record, I'm not likely to win any spelling bees in the near future, either.

As it happens, writing is my life. When employed, I make my living doing technical writing for software developers. But it's soulless, construction line word processing, a totally joyless exercise in "How the **** do I make a living as a writer." I really want to write in my own voice, as I do here. But the challenge is always how to make it pay.

Don't ever put your writing down. Eloquence is for some a gift and for others a learned skill, but without wisdom and compassion, it's all just pretty gift wrapping. Your posts show both wisdom and compassion, which is why you are so well respected here (and elsewhere). **** the spelling! Keep saying what you think and feel. That is what resonates with me and all the members of this forum.

Thomas  

[Thomas02]

"strength and honor ..." I just got it! What an impact that line makes each time it's used in "Gladiator." It really sums up the essence and motivation of Maximus. Great flick!

BTW, you mentioned dealing with shame over your condition. **** shame! Shame never helped anyone or anything. It is shame that will drive you back to using. Shed it like the snake skin that it is. You're a human being, and, as such, are to a lesser or greater degree suseptible to opiate addiction. It's physiology, NOT morality! Besides, my friend, you're facing up to your addiction and the impact it's having on your role as a father with true "stength and honor."

You can be a General in my Legion anytime!

Thomas

[Rex1]

It's funny how much we have in common.

I do technical writing - I am a hippee of sorts!

Both of you guys are helping me more than you'll ever know.

We could probably get the same message without the "****" part -but we take everyone as they are.

Thomas - you ever brought your stuff before God?

Rex