Do cravings/urges diminish significantly after a certain time period?

[Rex1]

Dr. Horvath,

I have read the info on your site - helpful stuff! (really!)

The one answer I did not find is whether there is a certain threshold point, like a month, or a year, in which your cravings to use significantly diminish. I know a person's pain and physiology has a lot to do with it, but in your experience, is there a common denominator time length when this happens? I would be interested in opinions from from my friends here too.

I am now seeing what everyone says about gettng clean being easier than staying clean, like getting clean was easy! Easy like a root canal followed by a gasoline enema!

Over the last two days, I have hourly knock down - drag out sword fights with myself over getting some relief with the lowest dose of Vicodin possible. It goes something like this "You are in pain, get some relief and just keep your dose low". "You fool, you are a drug addict. One pill per day means 12 pills per day eventually".

With God's help and the folks here, I have won both days. I am now at day 32 - no narcotics whatsover. Will this get any easier after a month, three months, 6, a year?

Thanks for the help.

Rex

[leadchest]

i have been detoxing from opiates several times.

i have always found the third day the hardest to stay clean.

for me its been really hard for those last three months, but its the longest ive gone without since '98.

THE CRAVINGS WILL BE LESS if you dare to stay honest with yourself and remember that

WE HAVE THE CHOICE between back into or slowly creeping on without.

TRY HERBAL TEAS before sleeping, nature has many cures, the pills that there is so much talk about in this forum seem to me to be so close to the drugs, already in their shape.

herbal teas like LINDEN BLOSSOMS or however you call them in english help you sweat out the stuff and go to sleep better.

and i believe my gem-stones help me so much. Amethyst and Dumortierite for example help me hang into it and enjoy what i have got.

keep your minds open. god helps me , or lets put it this way,
since i try to go WITH the FLOW it keeps taking me with it faster.

you are strong, i know that you are.  
love and peace, rob.

[johnbrownsbody]

Thanks to you all

Happy new year

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

[hyjack]

I was also here when Mr. Michael refers to this person who was on the implant.

I would like to add some food for thought that I've just discovered.

I've started taking L-tyrosine, and what a difference it has made for me.  During the day I usually get the "blahs", almost like a lethargic depression.  But since I've started taking it, those feelings have subsided, and feel more energy.  

I was told that it could have adverse effects if you have a heart condition, but since I do not, I tried it without a doctor's order.  I am so glad I did.

For people that are weaning or detoxing, it is definitely worth a try!

[hippy]

hey john, how go's it
i hope fine, yes reading helps pass the time when getting off the pills, it is a healthy distraction.
some books i have read and recomend.
1- A CONSPIRACY OF PAPER, BY david liss
2-THE GENESIS CODE, BY john case
3-THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW, by alan folsome
4- THE ALIENIST, by caleb carr
5- ENDER'S GAME ,by orson scott card
6-COMPLETE VAMPIRE CHRONICLES , by anne rice
7- THE DAMNATION GAME , by clive barker.

as far as vitamine go, some people say that they do nothing
but that is not my experence.
what has wrked for me foe pain is a minaral called MSM
IT WORKED WONDER FOR ME. for back and joint pain.
also 5htp has helped me with depression.

and last but not least , i have had wonderfull results with
the thomas's receipe, and the L-tyrosine 500 mg 4 a day all at once in the morning along with b-6 100 mg. two of them.


peace.,

[disjointed]

Hi JBB,

Firstly, there is no need for you to apologise - It's natural that emotions get raised on such a difficult & personal subject!

I am glad that you stealing your aunt's pills hasn't caused you too many problems - but I do hope that you are thinking about how to relate to your family in a way that encourages them to give you the best support for you in your mission to leave the opiates behind you.

As for books - for dark, scary and very funny entertainment I would definitely recommend 'A Scanner Darkly' by Philip K. ****.  For self-help I would suggest 'Overcoming Depression' by Paul Gilbert - a very practical & educational text from a cognitive-behavioural viewpoint.  I don't know if it's available in bookshops outside the UK, but you should be able to get it direct from the publishers, whose web address is

www.constablerobinson.com

Also I recommend listening to Johnny Cash records when in need of emotional strength to deal with some of the shitty things which life hands out to you!

All the best,

Disjointed

[johnbrownsbody]

Hi hippee and thanks

I'd like some fictions books if you recommmend that that could maybe take my mind off things.  you seem to be one of the most sensitive and wise people on the message board here along with many others.  I am so pleased that you've taken the time to get back to me.

do you also have any ideas about my diet or vitamins that could help through this difficult time?

peace, angel on your shoulder
Johnbrownsbody

ps. this forum is really helping me now.

[disjointed]

Oops!

Sorry for re-posting other people's posts underneath my own comments, in the above post.

What I'm saying finishes under the PS paragraph.

Apologies for any confusion & infringement of copyright!


Disjointed

[disjointed]

Dear JBB,

I hope you are not feeling too groggy after taking your aunt's medication, and that the whisky hasn't left you with a bad hangover - also that stealing from a family member hasn't left you with too many bridges to repair.  

From my own history, I am aware of the destructive effect on trust between family members that the behavioural effects of addiction can have - when in many cases strong family ties are what's needed for helping someone climb out of the pit of drug abuse.  It can be a viscious circle.

JBB, in your ten years on heroin, would I be right in assuming that this is not your first de-tox attempt?  Could I go further and ask if you have not in fact tried several times before, using gradual withdrawal programmes & perhaps methadone?  Perhaps you have also been on a residential de-tox too?*

These programmes work very well for some people, however for others, even after the physical withdrawal has gone, they start using again because they find life very hard to deal with without the drug.  It can sometimes take a while, months or even a year or more, to find and learn new ways of relating to the world which bring equal rewards in reality to those false rewards which the opiate used to bring.  Until then, the possibility of just one impulsive urge to solve one of life's inevitable problems by having 'just one hit' can be a real danger.

I'm not suggesting that you stay on naltrexone for ever and a day; merely that when you do take the decision to come off it, it should be a considered decision, taking into account how deeply you have ingrained your new non-druggie thoughts and behaviour into your personality and lifestyle.

One last thing - for the depression which you feel and your impulsive behaviour, have you considered cognitive-behavioural therapy?  It has a good track record with these problems.  If you can't afford CBT there may be a useful self-CBT book for you which I could look up for you.

Best wishes, and I hope you're not in too much trouble with your aunt!

Disjointed

* If my hunch is right about your history, it's not because I am telepathic - it's just that ten years is a very long time to be on such a serious drug as heroin without a few attempted de-toxes, and also that a naltrexone IMPLANT is usually a very last resort in my experience.










Thanks to all of you who have given me kind advice and support. I was just so confused after disjointed's comments. I found those sad stories so depressing. I went to my great-aunt's house after reading disjointeds message, and stole her temazepam. I have only taken a few, with some whisky, now I don't know where I am, all I know is some of the pain has gone away.

I think maybe Mr Michael67 is right. I think I will get rid of this implant. I am just going to take temazepam and whisky instead to take the edge off.

As for you disjointed, your 'advice' was not in the least helpful - where were you when your friends died? Was this the kind of advice you were giving them before they died?

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

C54 begbie
(28-Dec-02)  disjointed As addict or in your words "JUNKIE",I find your responce to jjb way out of line,it obvious this person is in the early stages of recovery so leave him alone with your horse **** advice.PS HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN IMPLANT? I think not.

C55 mrmichael67
(28-Dec-02)  . I never told anyone to "abandon" anything. I said to try it for one time. The effects should be almost intstant in the relative scheme of things....a few days to a week. If it doesn't help at all, go back on it. I think that would be an intelligent move. I know what that black hole depression is like and who the hell wouldn't want to try what they had to try to alleviate it. I know I would. Of course, one would have to have other tools to help keep clean. Go to a meeting every day if that is what it takes. Three months is a long time to go. One hell of an achievement. Time to let your body start to work the way it is meant to. I couldn't imagine waiting three years to feel good, or better actually, not necessarily good. Like I have said, naltrexone is an excellent tool to get one over the hump. It helps to get that precious time under one's belt. But, it is intended for short term use.

[mrmichael67]

Some places offer the implant and that's it.  Some places don't leave it in the hands of the patient.  It has nothing to do with a mental evaluation or anything like that.  They just don't do it.

[mrmichael67]

I never told anyone to "abandon" anything.  I said to try it for one time.  The effects should be almost intstant in the relative scheme of things....a few days to a week.  If it doesn't help at all, go back on it.  I think that would be an intelligent move.  I know what that black hole depression is like and who the hell wouldn't want to try what they had to try to alleviate it.  I know I would.  Of course, one would have to have other tools to help keep clean.  Go to a meeting every day if that is what it takes.  Three months is a long time to go.  One hell of an achievement.  Time to let your body start to work the way it is meant to.  I couldn't imagine waiting three years to feel good, or better actually, not necessarily good.  Like I have said, naltrexone is an excellent tool to get one over the hump.  It helps to get that precious time under one's belt.  But, it is intended for short term use.

[begbie]

As addict or in your words "JUNKIE",I find your responce to jjb way out of line,it obvious this person is in the early stages of recovery so leave him alone with your horse **** advice.PS HAVE YOU EVER HAD AN IMPLANT? I think not.

[johnbrownsbody]

Thanks to all of you who have given me kind advice and support.  I was just so confused after disjointed's comments. I found those sad stories so depressing.  I went to my great-aunt's house after reading disjointeds message, and stole her temazepam. I have only taken a few, with some whisky, now I don't know where I am, all I know is some of the pain has gone away.

I think maybe Mr Michael67 is right.  I think I will get rid of this implant.  I am just going to take temazepam and whisky instead to take the edge off.

As for you disjointed, your 'advice' was not in the least helpful - where were you when your friends died? Was this the kind of advice you were giving them before they died?

Peace
Johnbrownsbody

[disjointed]

Dear JBB,

I note that you seem to be getting slightly different advice from someone else on this board, but I wonder if you would consider the possibility that your worst danger is that of 'going back on the gear' rather than the discomfort and unhappiness which you attribute to your naltrexone?

I presume that you has some kind of psychological or medical assessment before having your implant.  If so, whoever supervised your assessment must have agreed that there was a risk that, without the naltrexone as an IMPLANT rather than in tablet form, you might succumb to temptation and one day 'forget' to take your pill, thus allowing you to weaken further and go out to find your dealer.

Are you sure that, behind your current feelings of 'depression', there doesn't lurk the fact that you now have to deal with real life, with all it's hard edges, disappointments and frightening choices, instead of the fake happiness inside an opiate cocoon which the drug used to give you?

Due to my upbringing and the people I mix with I am very close to many 'druggies' past & present - can I give you 3 examples to indicate the dangers you may face + the opportunity you may have.

1) The 27 year old daughter of a close friend of mine died at the end of November last year, with no apparent cause of death, leaving a lovely 8 year old daughter of her own.  My friend is still waiting for the cause of death to be established, due to the slowness of the pathology service in the British National Health Service.  But we are fairly certain what the result will be, given that she was an injecting heroin addict.

2) Another close friend, a woman of great determination, de-toxed herself from heroin a few years ago, and then discovered that she had hep C and is likely to have serious health problems into the future.

3) A third friend of mine is in his 3rd year of de-tox using naltrexone implants.  The implants have cost a lot of money but less than what the drug was costing him.  Even though he was very distressed at first and found coping with life without opiates in his system very hard, he is now becoming happier and more stable.

JBB, have a close look at your real motivations, then look at the life and health expectancy for heroin users.  Only then consider the advice that some may give you to abandon or even 'cut out' the implant which may be protecting you from returning to a habit that could so easily be yours again.

Best Wishes,

Disjointed

PS - So far as I know the theory that naltrexone itself, rather than the inability to access the 'pleasurable' sensations caused by heroin, methadone etc, causes depression has no firm scientific basis.

[mrmichael67]

I went back and read that you were on a three month pellet.  I was thinking you were on it for three months at one month intervals.  The person who was here previously had them replaced monthly.  It doesn't make a difference one way or the other.  Are you almost due for a new one?  If so, just don't get a new one and see how it goes.  Like I said, you can always get another one.  If I had one in me and I knew what I know now and by other evidence I have seen, I would get it out of me.  There isn't anything physically dangerous that is going to happen by doing it.  YOU have kept yourself clean these past three months.  After all that work, it is time to start reaping some rewards.

[hippy]

i saw jhon browns body's question and i was hopeing
you would anwswer him, i did want to post smoething to him but i was afraid i might say something about which i know nothing
the pellet,

peace!!!!!!!

[mrmichael67]

And, please keep us informed of what happens as that info would be very valuable.  If you can, e-mail me at ***@****.

[mrmichael67]

Is it possible for you to go a month without the pellet?  You can always go back, but if going off of the pellet makes you feel better, then you are golden.  I can't remember the user name of the person for the life of me, but I do know that person would start to feel much better when it was time for the new pellet.....the old one was finished and his endorphins weren't being antagonized.  If I were you, I would try to experiment and go without for one month.  If it works, great.  If it doesn't, go back on it.  Anything to get rid of that feeling you are experiencing, right?  Well, you know what I mean.

[saveyourself]

Great post, hippee

I always liked the lines for the first 3 steps, I can't, he can, I think I will let Him.  Hope everyone is doing good.  It 's 3am, but hey got 4 hrs sleep in a row, finally. I am slowly feeling better, I had to even go to work today to settle a problem one of my project managers could not resolve.  I am just glad it was today and not lsast week,  I mean it when I say I can not function in WD.

I still got a long ways to go before I feel human again. I will just take it a day at a time and work a program to the best of my ability.  This relapse really took a heavey toll on my body, I have gone through WD over 50 times in the last 30 yrs, whoever said that as your number of withdrawls add up, they do become much more intense and last a lot longer, tommorw is day 21 and I figure it can only get better as long as I don't pick up.  It feels like 3 months has gone by, all of them painful, of course thats just the lunatic in my head, I will see you guys on the bright side of the moon.  With the exception of one word, who recognizes that line. Clue, it was from the 70s, no cell phones, home computers, lots hemi charged machines and every girl was nice.
I am sounding like my Dad and his old days.  Things just seemed a lot slower then,  all the technology I have and own is nice, But I am tired of the rush, rush rat race.  On that happy thought ,I am goig to try to get some sleep.
Strength and Honor

[hippy]

thanks suz,
everythig i wrot is things i learned from other addicts
over the years, they passed to me and i try to pass it on,
i am aware that some of us on this fourm have to take meds
and being clean is not an option for them .
i give a o lot of credit to people in these situations.
learning how to take nessaceary med s takes a very mature person.
and for all those that are trying to stay clean they also
are to be commended , they will be able to chang e the world.
we all here in our own ways are making the world a better place.
just thiking of all the lives that are affected in poitive ways is amazing.
i think our children benifit the most.

peace !!!!!!!! suz have a good day and great new year darlin

[suzieneedshelp]

Your post way above was so inspirational!  You are such a gift to us all!
Love,
Suzie

[hippy]

hey there hope you are well, and doing good.
as far as the book i mentioned for rex--
addictions / a banquet in the grave
by edward t. welch
yes the the author mr welch has an office on
church road in cheltenham pa right out side of philly.
he is very religious and see's addicts, he beleives
all adictions are just sin.hr does not beleive in the disease concept. this book and others y him are very interesting,
tho i do notagree with him on everything he writes.
i find most of his book very interesting and most informative.
i have read many books on addiction from bradshaw to bill wilson.
i beleive in the disease of addiction for lack of a better term.
i  and many addicts i have known were raised in strict religious
households, religion is at the root of the problem for many addicts, one of the natures of addicts is rebellion.
amongst others.in my experence with my self and others
i have found it benaficial to put our religion on the back burner
in early recovery, but prayer and spiritualty  are very
powerful tools in early recovery and on going recovery.
i liken addicts just getting clean amd jumping into a very religious way of life  , to taht of a person getting into a boxing ring with out any trainig, they ashally get there but
kicked and get beaten unmercerfully.
we uashally do this job to ourselves.
in the 12 step programs they have a second step that ask' us to  come to beleive that a higher power can restore us to sanity.
this step infers that we are insane, and taking 20 or thrity perc's a day is insane. amongst other things.
i have found many religious people in early recovery pass this concept by, because they think they already beleive.
getting better from addiction starts with finding out what the problem is , and one of our biggest problems is we paly god
bt useing grugs to controll and minipulate our feelings and moods and lives.most addicts take one good look at god when they
are a kid and are afraid that god is not going to take care of them , so we start on the path of taking care of ourselves.
by useing what ever it takes, fear is a lck of faith.
for myself as an addict i lost my faith probley around 10 or 11 years old and sought a life of instant gratification through drugs , sex , money looking back it seem like if someone did ni\ot have one of these three things to offer me we did not have a relationship. these three things are what all my relationships were based on,
the frist step in the 12 step prograns is about getting lean and acceppting these ugly truths about myself,  and when i thought i had a problem with god , i really only had a problem wiyh myself
because i was my own god.
even when i finally got clean , life was like a football game
and i was the starting quaterback of my team still and god sat on the bench playing second string and every game i would be loseing 44 to nothing in the fourth quater and i would still
be reluctant to bring god into the game , some games he never got off the bench, but when i would have a moment of sanity i would let god in the game down by 4o points in the fourth quater agian , and god would always come in and win the game every time.
but evertime a new game would start there was god on the bench
and me out there throwing interceptions down by fouty points agian.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!hippy

[teeitup]

Congratulations on deciding to quit! Log on to this site as often as possible. Read every post and make comments when you feel comfortable. This site is the best therapy you will ever find, listen to everyones suggestions and decide what you feel most comfortable with. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong just as long as your trying to kick the habit, what ever works for you. There's no easy out from any addiction. Suck it up, stay strong and let this forum give you support. You'll do it!

teeitup!

[Witchywoman]

Welcome, I'm glad you joined in.

I wish I could answer the question with surety, but I can only say that I suspect you are right.  Three months clean should have you feeling normal again, for most addicts, depending on how much you were using.  It may be that the implant is keeping your own natural endorphins from kicking in again.

Have you asked your Doc? Definately give it a lot of research.

If you do take it out...make a good strong plan for recovery support in staying clean, 'cause that is harder than getting clean.

welcome again,
WW

ps I'll probably be away from posting till next week, still no home computer, so take care everyone and I'll "see" y'all next week.

[johnbrownsbody]

I've been looking at  this forum for a while now and only now I've found the courage to join in what you guys have been talking about.  Now though I really feel like I must.

I had been addicted to heroin for nearly ten years.  In November I found the will (and the money) to make the decision to take what seemed like a sure route away from my addiction.  After detoxing, I was given a three month naltrexone implant.  I have been feeling like ****, physically and mentally, although I have been hoping that  this will eventually go.  

Are you telling me that this is going to get worse? After what you've said, I feel like that this hell that I'm going through could be finished if I could get the implant out.  Do you think I should get rid of the implant and try and stay clean just through willpower?

As a newcomer tyo the board can anyone else give advice on this? I am feeling so confused and lost I don't know where the hell I am, every day is like groundhog day.