Formal studies on Ultram and Addiction

[Lynn B]

I'm a recovering addict (garbage can type) who has been clean and sober in 12-step programs for 5 years now.  I had a very ugly relapse 5 years ago over chronic pain -- had been clean and sober for 7 years before that.  Due to my realpse I participate in a professional diversion program.

I've been taking Ultram for chronic pain (along with Neurontin and wellbutrin) for about 3 years now.  I've done well.  Have never had "that" feeling with any of my meds, and have not had a desire to take them other than as prescribed.

Unfortunately, my diversion program is now insisting I stop Ultram because it is addicting.  Have any formal studies been done?  I honestly don't believe I can stop taking it without relapse -- pain's too bad.  Pain management doc states the only other way to go is to take other "true" opioids -- I KNOW I won't be able to do that for very long without relapse...

Got any ideas?  I'm really stuck here.

[barbara to pain and lortab]

This is just my opinion, but I also began Ultram about one and a half months ago for chronic pain. I am an alcoholic and began by self medicating for the pain problem.

After struggling to stay sober since last October I finally reached 60 days sobriety today, only due to the regimen of Klonopin, Ultram and Neurontin. I have not craved alcohol at all where as before the regimen, drinking was all I thought about even with A.A. and out-patient treatment.

YOU know what will make you relapse and what won't. The old saying is DON'T FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKE!!!! Don't let some holy rollers change what is working for you. If you ever feel you are craving additional Ultram than your normal prescribed regimen then address the issue with your doctor at that time.

[Lynn B]

barbara -- first of all: Congratulations on making 60 days!!  That's a big one...  shoot, they're ALL big ones.

I agree with the idea of not fixing what's not broke...  if it were just up to me , I'd leave well enough alone -- it took me a lot of hard work to get to where I am today.  Unfortunately, my professional license is currently in jepordy over this.  I'm looking for any sort of formal study, case law, and so on to help me back up what I know to be true for me.

Even though I've been a participant in this diversion program for almost 4 years now, I'm still considered to be a lying, stealing, cheatin' junkie.  Everything has to be proven in black and white or it doesn't exist.  bummer, huh?

Anyway -- thanks for the TLC -- I need it pretty badly right now -- Lynn

[Brighty]

What is Ultram anyway? What is it "supposed" to be used for ?

[Mike to Brighty]

Ultram is a "synthetic" opiod. It was touted as an equivalent to codeine WITHOUT the unwanted side effects. In other words - all the pain relief without the addiction possibilities. Sounds like a dream? Well it is. If you know how to get your head in "that space", you can get high on Ultram. I have. Anyway, it's a pain killer that doctors gave away freely because their scripts WERE NOT questioned like they are if they hand out 90 Vicodin. Hell, some of the doctors wrote this stuff like it was Motrin. I wound up with 50-90 at a whack. Of course, it's not as desirable as the others...it does work "okay" for pain. But best of all - it works to relieve withdrawal symptoms. And from what I've learned, anything that removes withdrawal symptoms IS addictive. But overall - Ultram is a "non-narcotic" (something that even the doctors are starting to challenge) pain reliever that doesn't contain any acet/aspirin/ibuprofen. It can be bought over the counter in Mexico - known as Tramadol I believe. Or was it Tradol? Either way - stupid drug in my opinion. I'm glad it works for some and controls their pain though. At least it works for SOMEONE out there.

[Mike]

Does any one know if you can take Ultram soon after stopping oxycontin.Will it help with oxy withdrawl symptoms. I could really use some info on this matter.Oxy helps much with the pain but..
I know there are some very knowledgable peope onthis site if you get a minute to reply.I'm afraid of any bad reactions or interactions if oxy still in my system.Thanks so much.

[Mike L]

The post above is not the same mike who answered above question. I will refer to myself as Mike L to avoid confusion. Still need that info...please.

[Mike P. to Ken]

I would say - don't take 'em together and you should be okay. Of course, the Ultram is like a wine cooler after having a 5th of Scotch a day habit, but it will help some. God, I couldn't even imagine withdrawing from Oxycontin...Anyway, it'll help you a little - especially if you take 2 or so...But, if you're trying to get off 'em for other reasons and already over the hardest part of coming off - let it be. If the worst of the battle is over, all the Ultram will do is prolong the rest. I'm no doctor but I'm pretty sure these 2 drugs WILL NOT interact in a detrimental way. Of course, it all depends on how much ya take.

Mike

[Mike L to Mike]

MIke,
  THANKS for quick reply wow.I know I need to come off oxy. I'm have bad back problems currently being treated but do not get relief I need from 3- 10mg. I can see where this is headed and would like to stop but withdrawl symptoms are terrible. I'm wondering if ultram would ease the discomfort.Or wll I just be getting int another bad situation. Heard of bruprenex( ? ). But nobody prescribes it.

[Mike P. to Ken]

Yeah, I hear you...But if you are honestly getting it together, a little Ultram might keep you from taking a couple of the other just to "get by". You know? If it's tolerable, it's easier to quit. It just is. I know some people here will take the other side as far as a "helper" drug that's also an opiate...but believe me, they won't make you high if you're taking Oxycontin. You'll still withdraw, just not so hard. Which is better? Which leads to a pull back to the initial drug? It all depends on the individual - do what YOU think is best for you. That's the key, especially if you still have bad pain from your back troubles. Take care

[Brighty]

Thanks Mike... well I guess that means it would not be safe for an addict to take... am I right ? How about someone who is not addicted to anything... can they take it without fear of getting hooked ? Just wondering.... Oh.. is it a scheduled or controlled substance ? I'm not sure exactly what non-narcotic means... would it mean it is not derived from opium ? Hmmm... no, honestly I don't know for sure what it means getting your head in "that place". I mean... don't you have to have the chemical do that or can you just get there some other way ??? If Ultram does that then what's in it that can make a person high? Afterall, I never heard of someone getting high on Motrin. What is this "synthetic" substance?? I hope you don't think I'm either stupid or flip... I really want to know so I don't get bamboozled by the addict in my family !!! You know.. if there's an injury or some reason to take pain meds.... I like to know the scoop!! Love, Brighty

[Mike P. to Ken]

I don't think that people take Ultram to get high per se - some do, but there's probably another drug that it's replacing. Another stronger true opiate or derivative. I think Ultram can be taken responsibly. I really do. In fact I took it for a long time until one day, after doubling the dose - I found I was a little high from it. Later that night, of course I tripled it and was a happy little kid. Was I zonked? No. What I mean by "that place" is - when someone firsts smokes pot or snorts heroin - it is many times NOT a pleasant experience. It takes awhile to learn which way to let or not let your mind and body go. If you let it go one way, you may enjoy the high a lot more. If you let it go another, you may get a headache, feel ill etc. depending on the drug in question. Needless to say, this iniatial experience turns many people off of drugs right off the bat and that's good. But many of us, especially those of us who were put on pain medications by a doctor for a prolonged period of time, get to a place "in their head" where they can really groove on a drug. It's what eventually starts drawing you back. It's the place you try to get to every time you use after that. You never seem to ever really get back there though. Sometimes it's close, other times it's futile. Non-narcotic means that it isn't an opiod or derived from opiates. Vicodin is a semi-synthetic opiate. Codeine is an opiate without chemical manipulation. Hence 5mg of Hydrocodone = the equivelent of 30 mg of Codeine. It's been altered to somewhat decrease unwanted side effects, yet is a stronger pain reliever...blah blah blah...anyway, Ultram was "derived from" opiates. They thought they changed the molecular structure enough to kill pain, yet not give euphoria. Kinda like aspirin or motrin. No those to things won't get you high, but they don't come from the same source as Ultram. Either way, they have left a few molecular keys in there that fit some peoples opiate receiving key holes. I'm one of them and I know there are others. No, it's not Morphine but what is? :) Hopefully I've been thorough and correct in my info...I worked at a pharmacy for three years (no I didn't steal) so a lot of this stuff wore off on me. Take care and ask away if someone (I believe it was your daughter) does something to make you wonder...we'll let you know. I wouldn't bite someone's head off for taking Ultram though...It's really mild...some people think it's a joke altogether. Take care - Mike

[barbara to pain and lortab]

I can see where you are coming from. All I can suggest for possible case studies or other info is to search, Ultram or Tramadol, and you may find the answers you need to back up your arguement to keep your license. Even if you have to go through many pages. Sometimes the best info is not found on the initial 10 choices provided.

[Brighty]

Thanks so much for your very informative reply. I bet I'm not the only person who learned alot from you on this one !!! I will have to re-read it to really get it I think. Yep, my daughter will be home from long term treatment in October or November... .and you bet... I'll be here asking you and everyone all sorts of stuff. I pray it all goes smoothly. Take care and blessings to you. Brighty

[tom to Mike P]

3 years on the "forbidden" side of the pharmacy counter and didn't steal? What's the matter with you? (just kidding).

I "settled" for Ultram from a doctor (not getting what I really wanted) and finally took some out of boredom, not expecting much. I took 2, didn't feel anything (it's not fast acting), then took two more. Boy, was I surprised! Ultram lit up the opiate receptor arcade in my brain like the Fourth of July. I thought I had stumbled onto something incredible: a drug described as "non-narcotic" (usually a hateful term for me) that, for at least the first 5 or 6 times I used it, felt like the best moments of a Vicodin or Perc trip. I don't know much about brain structure or chemistry, but you can go to rxlist.com and read the manufacturer's lit on their product. They say Ultram binds to "sub-opioid" receptors, which I gather are somewhat distinct from other opiate or opioid receptors acted upon by other drugs. (it would be interesting to "map" the activity of various opiates to their corresponding receptors, figure out which ones you hadn't overused yet, and take the drug that targets them. (I know, I'm going to Hell).
Anyway, I found Ultram to be quite a good high -- but only for about a month or so. Since then, I feel some effect from the stuff, but not the euphoria I initially got from it. Rather like a lot of drugs, I suppose. Even without the euphoria, though, I can still get significant relief from 2 Ultram. The plus side is that the duration of relief is probably twice that of codeine or Vicodin. I found to get the full analgesic benefit from it, I had to take a "loading dose" first. I've been told that Ultram is not constructed like an opiate, but is opiate-like in its action. Hence doctors and addiction specialists are obliged to treat Ultram as a narcotic.
One BIG warning for Ultram experimenters: Over-use produces terrible headaches and nausea. Emphasis on terrible.
A BIGGER warning: I took too much once and literally blacked out/passed out. One second I was walking across my deck, the next thing I knew I was coming-to flat on my back on the very same deck, with no idea how long I'd been out. I was not mixing it with anything else, so I must assume the blackout was caused by the Ultram. Scared the **** out of me. I haven't taken it to get high since. I think it's dangerous and unpredictable as a recreational drug, but quite effective for legitimate pain relief. Anyway, that's my take on the stuff.

Anyway, I found Ultram to be quite a good high -- but only for about a month or so. Since then, I feel some effect from the stuff, but not the euphoria I initially got from it. Rather like a lot of drugs, I suppose. Even without the euphoria, though, I can still get significant relief from 2 Ultram. The plus side is that the duration of relief is probably twice that of codeine or Vicodin. I found to get the full analgesic benefit from it, I had to take a "loading dose" first. I've been told that Ultram is not constructed like an opiate, but is opiate-like in its action. Hence doctors and addiction specialists are obliged to treat Ultram as a narcotic.
One BIG warning for Ultram experimentors: Over-use produces terrible headaches and nauseau. Emphasis on terrible.
A BIGGER warning: I took too much once and literally blacked out/passed out. One second I was walking across my deck, the next thing I knew I was coming-to flat on my back on the very same deck, with no idea how long I'd been out. I was not mixing it with anything else, so I must assume the blackout was caused by the Ultram. Scared the **** out of me. I haven't taken it to get high since. I think it's dangerous and unpredictable as a recreational drug, but quite effective for legitimate pain relief. Anyway, that's my take on the stuff.

[tom to all]

sorry for the repeated text above-- flubbed the cut and paste I guess. Maybe the site admin will delete it so I don't look like an idiot. (well, it's a start anyway)

[Brighty]

Thanks for your post on the Ultram... I'm glad to learn all this since I only ever heard of the drug on this board. Is it addictive to those who are not addicts ?? Mike gave me alot of info too... posted up above. Speaking of opiate receptors.. or opiod.. .whatever they are called... I read an article on something being used on mice in Europe... I think it's either called gamma-v-gaba or gaba-v-gamma... does that make sense to you... that it removes the "reward" aspect of opiates. They gave it to mice or rats... fuzzy little critters... and after that they stopped going for the lever that administered the opiate. I would sure like to know more about this.. .can you or anyone enlighten me ??? ( I think you have to be reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly bad to go to hell... so stop thinking that !!! :-))

[ultram]

I too have been in recovery for addiction.  I was clean for 11 years when I got addicted to fiorecet for my migraines - relapse (I hate that word - if I was gonna relapse, I would have tried to have fun doing it, bot trying to kill the excruciating pain in my head).  I thought it was safe because I had been honest with my doctor.
For what it's worth, Ultram is not a controlled substance.  It is not mind-altering.  In fact, a customer of mine gave me some samples and told me could not give samples of addictive, controlled substances.
In NA, we are taught that no mood altering drug is ok.  From everything I have read and taking the drug myself, I do not believe it is addictive.  I also want to add that I do not take Untram.  My problem is headaches and it simpley doesn't help them.
I am very interested in this group you mentioned.  Can you tell me more about it?  I could use all the help I can get even though I am doing well again.
email me please at sbrawsm@aol,com
Sue

[Em]

Tom
I am 17 years old and I started abusing narcotic painkillers when I was 14.  In some ways I think my Ultram experience has been similar to yours.  The first time I took it I didn't expect much (having looked it up in my trusty Pill Book and found it to be non-narcotic), and I only tried it at all because I couldn't get anything "good" and I was desperate.  I took 2 and about an hour later began to feel the effects.  The high was almost as good as a Lorcet 10, and lasted much longer.  I loved it of course, and began stealing them from my friend's mom.  When those ran out I began taking my usual hydrocodone and Tylenol 4's again, and didn't take any more Ultram for maybe 6-9 mos.  Then I discovered that my friend's grandma was also taking Ultram, and decided to have another little binge.  By the time my "binge" had lasted a couple of months, I knew I was hooked.  I had already experienced a week of awful withdrawal from hydrocodone a few months before, and I wasn't too eager to go thru it--or anything similar to it--again.  So, naturally, I kept taking the Ultram.  By now, 2 did virtually nothing, and 3 was my minimum for a high.  Eventually I had to get off them for the simple fact that I couldn't get anymore, but I just turned to other pills so I wouldn't have to go thru the withdrawal.  Now I have started taking 40mg Oxycontin, and they are awesome, but expensive and hard to come by.  As for Ultram, there are a lot of things I don't understand about them.  First off, this whole are-they-narcotics or are-they-not deal.  Everything I have read about them is conflicting.  Another thing, how come I get such a good high off of them, while they do absolutely nothing to other people I know?  Once in a while I would even take a couple and not feel it at all, the next day take the same amount and be high.  What could cause that?  I have almost blacked-out on them several times also.  No one else I know really likes to take Ultram, because they say they do nothing at all, or only make them sleepy.  Anybody with info on this, or info I might not know about other painkillers (esp. Oxycontin)let me know.

[[email protected]]

I have been taking Ultram, about 1 a day (sometimes 2 or 3, depending on the pain) for Anklyosing Spondylitis, a form of arthritis.  It's like a godsend.  It really works on the pain.  I can sit, sleep, and work without aching, and getting out of the chair is no longer a nightmare.

I have noticed a subtle sense of euphoria when I take ultram.  If the pain is bad, I take 2 at a time, and I'll be in that "happy" place that many drug users undoubtedly look for.  I also get quite "chatty", and enjoy the company of people more when I'm on ultram.

My doctor prescribes ultram with no hesitation, but I always feel guilty just asking for it.  I know that many people must use the drug just to get high.

Basically, I look on ultram as a wonder-drug.  It stops the pain, so I'm happier, plus the drug makes you happier.  I've gone days at a time without having pain/using ultram, and the only withdrawl I have noticed is a bit of uneasyness, fatigue, and tension.  Hey, life's a *****.  Some people in Africa are dying of hunger... I'm not gonna ***** about a small side effect when the benefit is almost unmeasurably good.

Unless I'm really missing something, ultram is all good.  It has made my life livable again.

[[email protected]]

I have been taking Ultram, about 1 a day (sometimes 2 or 3, depending on the pain) for Anklyosing Spondylitis, a form of arthritis.  It's like a godsend.  It really works on the pain.  I can sit, sleep, and work without aching, and getting out of the chair is no longer a nightmare.

I have noticed a subtle sense of euphoria when I take ultram.  If the pain is bad, I take 2 at a time, and I'll be in that "happy" place that many drug users undoubtedly look for.  I also get quite "chatty", and enjoy the company of people more when I'm on ultram.

My doctor prescribes ultram with no hesitation, but I always feel guilty just asking for it.  I know that many people must use the drug just to get high.

Basically, I look on ultram as a wonder-drug.  It stops the pain, so I'm happier, plus the drug makes you happier.  I've gone days at a time without having pain/using ultram, and the only withdrawl I have noticed is a bit of uneasyness, fatigue, and tension.  Hey, life's a *****.  Some people in Africa are dying of hunger... I'm not gonna ***** about a small side effect when the benefit is almost unmeasurably good.

Unless I'm really missing something, ultram is all good.  It has made my life livable again.

[Dan in Florida]

I have chronic pain (I'm 28 now) and when I started taking Ultram, I only needed 1 tab (50mg). Now, 5 years later (five YEARS) :( I now need 3 tabs of 50mg to lower my pain, which it doesn't do now as much now.. I remember when I first started I did feel that high, but I wasn't OD'ing to GET high, thats what I was prescribed to take.. then it went to 1 and a half (cut one pill) then 2, and now I am prescribed to take 3.

I HAVE taken 4 at once when I was in such bad pain though, but rarely.. I tried Ty /w Cod. and it didn't to anything, same with 5mg Vicoden.. nothing..

Anyone have any ideas on what I should ask my doc to try me on next? I am suffering daily now pretty much, my breakthrough pain starts about 3 HOURS after I take 3 Ultram (150mg total).

In pain, Dan
***@****

[candy]

This stuff will get you high. If you quit drinking because of it's help you bet it's getting you high because i'd rather take it than alcohol and i've come from a long line of alcoholics.anyway thank god i don't have an abundant supply. my hubby regulates it during my menstrual cycle. take care you all. do any of you break out from it? candy.

[vickyv re: ultram]

I hurt my back at work years ago, and quickly went through my vicodins.  I was going through withdrawals when my back doctor then put me on ultram.  I looked it up in the PDR and was disapointed to see it was non narcotic.  However, I took one anyway.  Much to my surprise, my w/d symptoms were gone!!!! I thought it was a cure.  Only later, when I started coming to this board did I discover what the gig was.  Apparantly, ultram attaches to the same opiate receptors as vicodin, et al and your brain thinks it is is on them again.  However, to my dismay, my withdrawals were back in a HUGE way when I stopped.  I don't know if the vicodin withdrawal was still lurking, or I was withdrawing from the ultram.  Be careful, any mood altering drug is addictive.  The withdrawals are a motherfucker.

[jim re ultram, jan. 29, 2001]

I have been taking ultram for about 3 years now. I don't see how anybody can get relief with one or to tabs. I have reached a point that I usually take 7 50mg. two to three times daily. And, still, no longer even geet a buzz. I know it's probably dangerous to be taking such heavy doses. But, that's what it takes to do my pain any good. Also, withrawal affects me heavy on the mental side. Very depressed, very heavy leg and arm spasms, even to the point of drawing up in knots. Even to the point of suicidal thoughts. I do believe I can control those thoughts though, but it really gets that bad. Yes, Ultram is very addictive, and it can be bought across the counter in Mexico under the name of Tradol 50 mg. Also I've read a lot about some of the guys "going to hell" over this. Just remember, God is not juding you for your addiction. You don't go to heaven for being perfect, or Jesus would have waisted his time on the cross. God's grace is a gift. All you have to do is accept this, and put your faith in his Son, Jesus Christ. Your habit is way down the list in God's eyes. If you're afraid of going to hell, just ask God to put you under the blood of Jesus, and put your faith in Him, then it's a done deal! He knows our hearts. He knows we're trying. Just keep trying. You and I will make it someday.