Take pain meds despite addiction???

[Racheal]

I've been addicted to alcohol and prescription pain med.s since I was 14, at 17 I got into recovery and received treatment. I've relapsed twice in the past year both on pain meds. I've got a kidney blockage due to a kidney stone, I've had this for about a month and a half. It is VERY painful. In the begginning I used pain meds to deal with the pain. It became a huge problem as I began taking more than I was supposed to, taking them when I wasn't in pain. So I sopped nearly a month ago and am just doing without. The pain is wearing me down and seems to be getting worse. So my question is should I just start taking it again despite the problems I've had or should I continue to do without? I mean would it be too risky to start up again? My doctor doesn't seem too concerned but he also doesn't seem to knowledgable about recovery either. Can you help me with this, anyone?

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I just got home from Chicago were we spent Thanksgiving with our daughter, three grandkids and her wonderful husband.  It was sooo nice to get away for awhile and be with my family again!  Marty says Hi and wants you to know that she's fine.  We just live one day at a time to it's fullest and are enjoying ourselves.

It sounds like you've had the same experiences with the 12 step programs that we have had.  Finding the right support group for you is what makes it work.  After all it is a program of attraction isn't it?  The group I hang out with are mainly cross addicted like myself(booze and drugs).  Surprisingly, our group is about 40 or so men and women.  Not bad for a community of less than 15000 people.  I would likely be dead or in the state mental hospital were it not for the support of my group having lost a daughter to epilepsy, my wife with cancer and me with stage 4 liver disease and waiting for a transplant.  

Thanks again, tom

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

First of all, I am an addict but am currently on Lorcet for legitimate pain.  My wife keeps my meds locked up and gives them to me on schedule because I cannot be trusted with them.  After almost two months of this, I am actually thankful we have this arrangement because it works!

I like the idea of a drug like buprenorphine for long term pain management.  It sounds like it would be safer to use than say, Ultram, MMT or Oxy.  Apparently my doctor still believes that opiates a the best answer for pain and I would like to show him that there are better alternatives out there.  So keep us posted, Brian.

Vicky, I've been to both NA and AA and personally I think AA is better.  I say this with about 20 years of experience with both programs.  I noticed right away that there was a lot more relapses going on in NA and a lot of "bragging" about the drug experience.  It was like "can you top this one".  The people in NA were generally younger and I had trouble relating to them because I don't have any experience with Street Drugs/Designer Drugs/cocaine/LSD et. al.  You have to find a group of people you can trust and relate with to have any success.  This forum works pretty well for me as it tends to keep me focused in the right direction.  Sometimes we just need to hear ourselves talk to see if we are on track, we are our own best healers.  No doctor really has the power to cure us of anything...but we have "that power"!  We just have to find a way to tap into it.

[tom to J.B.]

I had the same experience with AA. Though I was clearly an NA candidate, I just didn't feel I was really connecting to the AA process itself at NA meetings. NA and especially CA meetings left me depressed and afraid. The human devestation I saw at the CA meetings was profound and simply overwhelmed me. I had to connect to the right AA groups before I felt I was really working a program at all. I say, with so much at stake, all of us should forget the AA/CA/NA distinction and just go to the meetings that work for us. To those still searching, you'll know you're at the right meeting because you'll feel it in your bones. That's about ther only way I can describe it.
BTW: give my best to your wife, Marty. My heart goes out to her. If my wife was going through what Marty is, I'd be heartsick beyond words. My wife, Bobbie, is my connection to everything good in life. I sense you have the same sort of relationship with Marty. My best wishes to both of you on this Thanksgiving evening.

[Frankinscense]

The NX is there to block any effects from IV usage. I have heard that bup. done IV produces a quite a high w/out the NX. I took talwin when it first came out and got high, when they put the NX in it I did not feel anything.

[Brian to Sick and Scared]

I'm actually not certain about what the results are of combining the buprenorphine with the nal.  I haven't really researched that combo, but my guess is it probably makes the buprenorphine less effective in combatting withdrawal symptoms.  My hope is that the combination is done in such a way that the good points of the buprenorphine outweigh the pure antagonist effect of the nal.  I'll do some research on it, and if I find anything of interest I'll let you know.  Brian

[vickyvortex to Phil and J.B.]

I had to laugh at the term "normal detox program."  There are none in Northeast Indiana.  I was in a unit that was for anyone with a mental problem, i.e. schizoprenia to cocaine and heroin.  I was in the now defunct Lutheran Hospital mental unit.  The only other alternatives are Charter Beacon and Parkview Hospital's unit, where I went in for Cocaine.  I know it is hard to believe that they wouldn't give me anything for pain, but it is true.  The big thing there is to prescribe a form of lithium called depakote.  The theory is everyone is bi-polar, and if you're not, well, it won't hurt you. I was allowed one valium at night  I take valiums now, and have horrible withdrawals, but that is for another post.  Basically, they do not believe in prescribing anything physically addictive to someone already physically addicted.  I begged for an ultram, just to subside the withdrawals, and about four days before my release(which of course was when my insurance stopped coverage.  I guess I was "cured" then) i was allowed a motrin.  I woke up every nite hour on the hour.  They made me take my valium 5 at nine PM, since bedtime was 10 PM.  Needless to say, at midnite, I was in agony and "no dear, I'm sorry, but we are not allowed to give you anything else without the doctor's permission, he will be here in the morning, etc." Of course, the doctor wandered in around noon, and by then I was in "arts and crafts."  Every day I would tell the doctor my exact symptoms, how I felt the fact there was nothing to ease my pain even a little, made me obsess over it and feel even worse.  To no avail.  I also have a rare birth defect with my neck, to which there is no surgical alternative as it is right near the jugular vein and most surgeons are a little squirmish about that, and they don't really know what it is.  I was born breach, and the doctor squeezed my neck with the forceps, causing the muscles in the neck to become twisted.  I look normal, but I can't move my neck to the right and the nerves in my neck and down my back are constantly being pulled.  I have gotten used to the stiffness and the immobilization of my neck, but the agony of that burning pain from the nerves being constantly stretched is quite uncomfortable, to be sarcastic. A.A. in most places will not let you say you are an addict, and N.A. is a joke here.  Everyone starts geeking over their addiction and winds up going out and using after the meeting.  I know this sounds crazy, but alas, it is true.  To J.B.  I have gone a month without and it does get better, but I still feel the chills and the yucky feeling.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I'm glad you are back!  I've been down that road of "more research on addiction" myself--several times.

I think that many of us here do not understand the agonist/antagonist properties of the drugs you mentioned.  If you combine the two, don't you end up with nothing?  It has been a few years but I remember having to keep a dose of Nalox(sp)on hand when my wife was on morphine here at home.  Supposedly it was to be used for accidental overdose, kind of like an antidote.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Now that is really interesting about the depression thing.  That has been one of my biggest problems in staying off opiates-the depression.  I've read that buprenorphine is a schedule four drug due to it's low potential for abuse.  If that is the case then why is it not made more available to the addict?

I posted several weeks ago that opiates were the only AD's that worked for me and got quite a response in my favor.  In fact the whole thread ended up being deleted by the sponsors of this forum.  As a depression sufferer, I don't want to wait weeks for some antidepressant to take effect, ie. Prozac, effexor, Paxil et al.

If you had a migraine headache, would you want to wait three or more weeks for relief?  Depression can kill you just as dead as a bullet to the head.  I'm leary about all these SSRI's that are being used on us...will they be the Valium of the next generation?

[Frankinscense]

First of all Bupe. is a Schedule five. drug. It is already being used my psychiatrist in certain parts of the country. The fda has already ok'd it,why doctors are not using it mainsteam across the country baffles me as it does you. The maker of buprenorphine has not started marketing it like the makers of prozac,zoloft, celexa,is the only reason,that I can think of. Doctors depend too much on pharmaceutical salesman and not old fashion research.
Dan..

[Brian to Sick and Scared]

Buprenorphine is an excellent detox drug AND appears to help with depression.  My concern is that the approval given for buprenorphine to be used by any doc (which hasn't come through yet)allows it to be used in pill form, combined with naltrexone.  This concerns me because when it is alone, the buprenorphine works great.  Combined with nal, I am concerned it will not be as effective in relieving withdrawal symptoms during detox.  The reason they are combining the drugs is they are worried about diversion of bup into the street market.  I think this worry is silly since bup does not give much if any high, and certainly not to people who are using narcotics regularly.  Stupid government bureaucrats!  Anyhow, if using bup for detox, best to find one using shots of bup, not pills with the combo.  Brian

[Frankinscense]

Buprenorphine is an xcellent pain killer of the morphine type. Much easier on the neuro transmitters causing less addiction;and it is a schedule V which means informed doctors will likely prescribe for chronic pain. Also works as an antidepressant for chronic opiate abusers by replinishing depleted endorphins.
Dan

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Vicky, I'm not sure what you mean about opiates being pure pain.
I've detoxed off of more potent stuff before and the physical pain usually goes away in a week or less.  It's the mental anguish that seems to go on forever.  I was sent to an addiction shrink who prescribed me meds to counteract my depression.

As far as hospital detox, I've always been given something like Valium for a few days.  Before you go into detox you should make sure that meds are given.  I my case my blood pressure usually goes sky high along with my pulse rate.  One time I had a seizure during detox.  They have to be able to medicate you for these things.  Panic attacks are another problem as some people will get downright dangerous if not monitored and medicated.

Yes the doctors here in Indiana are pretty conservative about prescribing opiates.  They probably are all over the country.  I just had a really hard time getting my doctor convinced recently that I needed something stronger that Motrin.  I kept a pain journal and showed it to him.  That worked for me!  Now I can function normally again.

[Brian to Sick and Scared]

Not even in Indiana would they let an addict go through withdrawal with no medication, IF you were in a normal detox program.  Were you?  I find it hard to believe that in your entire state you can't find 1 doc or program using buprenorphine for detox, outpatient.  Have you thoroughly searched?  Phil

[vicky to J.B. and anyone who's listening]

I have been through inpatient detox...first for cocaine, and then for vicodin.  I got addicted to cocaine because I used it to get through withdrawals.  It does work, but like most addicts, I can't do anything in moderation!!!!  However, I would go through the whole hell of cocaine a million times to never go through vicodin withdrawal and detox.  Here in Indiana, doctors are so conservative they are afraid to give you a darvocet.  Anyway, I went cold turkey in the hospital.  The therapists don't understand that opiates are PHYSICALLY addicting, unlike cocaine.  I had cravings with cocaine.  I screamed all night with the vicodin withdrawal, and it was worse knowing there was no relief.  They wouldn't even give me ******* motrin!!!!  Anyway, how can you work a program with physical symptoms.  I don't mean to sound dumb, its just that alcohol and coke are mostly psychological, while opiates are pure pain.  Also, I went to that site mentioned previously about "compassionate doctors."  None in Indiana of course, but Chicago isn't too far.  Does anyone know anything about that site.  Not trying to glorify anything, God forbid.... V

[to Vicodin Gurll]

Good post my friend!  I too have learned the hard way that getting off the drugs is the easy first step.  Staying off them requires far more work.  My theory is that we addicts train ourselves to want easy solutions to hard problems.  Have a bad day, pop a pill rather than focus on really solving the problem.  In a little pain, pop another pill rather than trying exercise, stretching, yoga or something else to deal with the root of the pain.  On and on.  When you train yourself to get an instant solution (narcotic)you then have real difficulty doing some REAL work like relapse prevention.  Take care of yourself.  Phil

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Things may be different now but when I last went through detox at the hospital, I was closely monitored.  They gave me a couple of drugs but I don't remember for sure what they were.  I think one was a benzo like Valium and the other was clonidine.  After four days I was discharged and went immediately into a 21 day outpatient rehab program.  I attended NA and AA meetings plus had six months of aftercare in a support group.

Yes I have known people who have been successful.  They were able to stay with the 12 step programs and work on recovery.  The point is that the programs require a lot of commitmant and hard work.  A lot of people will seek an easier, softer way and that leads right to relapse.  You just can't sit on your laurels and expect to stay clean.  I know this first hand!

[Vicky to J.B.]

Finally, someone who lives near me.  What are the options for addiction treatment here other than cold turkey withdrawal.  Has anyone you know ever had any success.  Please write!!!!!  Thank you.

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Yes, I am currently on Lorcet/10/650 for pain and I take no more than three per day.  My doctor swears this is a safe dose for me, but I'm not convinced.  Anyway I have an appointment to see him tomorrow and am going to ask for something without the Tylenol.  
I believe Norco is like Vicodin, Lortab and Lorcet which contain hydrocodone and APAP(Tylenol).  You can check this on rxlist.com.

I have chronic liver disease and am at stage four.  When I do use too much Tylenol, my ankles and feet swell and I get pains in my right upper abdomin.  I will have nosebleeds, high blood pressure, headaches and nausea as well.  I would just try to avoid any Tylenol as much as possible, Frank.

[Frankinscense]

JB do you take Norco. My doctor gave it to me for back pain and leg pains. I have taken it but, I am  concerned because my liver enzymes were elevated after being on Lorcet 10/650 for a few months. I have read that people with hepatitus and or elevated liver enzymes can have bad liver reactions from lorcet tylenol combinations. Have you or anyone taken tylenol with hydro's for pain? Some people still take hydrocodone tylenol combinations with liver problems. I thought this was a no no. Can you or anyone answre my questions? PLease respond. What are the ingredients of Norco? Please help>

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Unfortunately, the drug producers are really only interested in money.  And that's how they can be persuaded...lots of law suits.

Really, what would they do without all of us addicts?  Are they any different than the tobacco or brewing companies?

I live not far from the Ely Lily Company here in Indiana and just read an article about what great humanitarians they are.  They shipped 7 million doses of an antibiotic that was out of date to Africa.  Are they such good guys or did they do it for a tax write off?  Maybe they are in financial trouble since their patent on Prozac expired.  Just a thought.

[Brighty to JB]

You can be sure that I'll be doing research on it !! That your wife got it for post op pain is very encouraging. I also wonder why more doctors don't consider it. I think that narcotics are more familiar to them. Most doctors seem to know little about addiction and addicts seem to be the stepchildren of the patient communities in the medical profession. I think we all need to start getting aggressive about pushing for safe, reliable medications that do not create or awaken addiction. I am thinking about bombarding the pharmaceutical companies in some way :-)) LOL. Any suggestions anyone ???

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

About the Toradol, I got a shot of it in the ER about a year ago for rib injuries I sustained at work.  It is a very potent NSAID and it did make me very groggy.  My wife also got it for post OP pain when she was in intensive care.  The last I heard it was being tried for oral surgery pain and inflamation.  You can probably get more information about it on rxlist.com. Anyway, I thought it did a pretty good job for me at the time. I wonder why the stuff isn't being used more often.

[Brighty to Rachel]

There are some posts in a section here listed under an Ultram question. Both Tom and JB responded to having success with Talwin NX and Torodol ( spelling ??). You may want to read those posts from the past couple of days and then inquire in advance with the doctor if these drugs could help with your pain and not awaken your addiction. Do as much research as you can. My experience has been that many doctors are not well informed about addiction issues and may tell you not to worry... this general type of reply could keep you from getting the best possible information and the best possible care for youself. You have a special condition called "addiction" and you deserve to get correct information. Good luck and tell us how you fare.

[Brighty to JB]

So good to hear from you !! I moved and got lost in limbo for awhile with no PC connection and other annoyances :-)) You know there is a beautiful angel in heaven that I have asked to guide my daughter... you do understand.... and this gives me tremendous comfort. Peace and prayers to you... and many thanks for your continuing support. Stay in touch. Love, Brighty