Methadone to Catapres

[The]

My boyfriend went to the methadone clinic for a year and a half (taking 70 mg/day) after a three year heroin addiction. Since his "detox" last fall from the clinic, he was buying methadone pills on the street (20 mg every two days) and finally last week heard about Catapres. He took Catapres and phens (?) for four days straight. Now he is supposedly "done" taking anything and feels like ****. He is looking into buprenorphine. I think he should just go without anything. Will his body adjust? He is determined to never go back to methadone (definitely not heroin) but he is wallowing in depression. He just wants to be normal again. What can he do? What can I do?

Thanks for any input. I really appreciate it.

[siliconboy]

This is in response to the (the?) girl whose boyfriend is trying to kick methadone. Sister - you have my compassion - and I can speak directly to your situation although it is simply to provide moral support to you both. I was addicted to that **** (heroin) and went through so many methadone detox(s)I honestly lost count. Your Bo needs to get to a doctor who understands and treats addiction for what it is - a medical condition. If he can find someone who is willing to support him with buprenorphine I highly recommend that he do so. That drug was initially used in detox units for the poor souls coming off of  stimulants like meth(crank), coke, crack etc. It was found to significantly lift the moods in these patients. Depression is a factor in most people where drugs and alcohol have been abused and honestly it's my experience that those of us who find ourselves with substance abuse problems have a tendency towards depression and usually find it in the family tree. My bout with heroin cost me a cool job the lady I loved and so on. Please don't give up on your boyfriend - he will make it but it may be 3 steps forward and two back for a while. I'm not a fan myself but 12 step programs like narcotics anonymous have helped and continue to help an enormous amount of people

[DoesItEverEnd]

Got on methadone 8 yrs ago after being addicted to heroin for about 20yrs. (I had never been on meth longer than 2 days here, a few weeks there etc) After being on 100mg for a few yrs I began detoxing slowly over the course of a few yrs. I got down to 20mg with no problems. At 20mg it got hard but I eventually pushed on until 2 yrs ago I reached 1.25mg (cutting 5mg tabs into quarters.) That was 2yrs ago and I can't seems to drop this last lousy 1.25mg. I wake up sick, the dose takes 3hrs to hit me and than only lasts 3 or four hours. The physical withdrawal isn't as bad as it used to be but the axiety and rage is unbearable. Also the depression. For those few hours every day though it all leaves. Anyway I finally decided to go to the hospital tonight and ask for an in patient detox to "knock this out" thinking with the atmosphere and maybe antidepressants/antianxiety meds i could do it. I just got back and they refused me saying there's no way that small dose could be reaching my receptors and my problem is purely psychological. It's the only inpatient detox place in town. I may be wrong but I don't think it's a placebo effect. There's days when Iv'e taken my dose (if you wanna call it that at this point) and forgot that I took it saying to myself "damn I don't feel to bad (for a few hours) only to realize later that I DID take it. So how could it be a placebo effect; unless my subconcious mind knew I took it or something. Anyway at this point Iv'e lost all hope. My wife is finally sleeping after crying herself home from the hospital with me, I can't seem to get used to this dose even after 2yrs. Is it possible that I'll never get used to it.? Is it just time to "jump" off here and be sick for ever?
If after 2 yrs my body won't adjust than how can it adjust with no meth. Or is the small dose keeping my body from adjusting and if I stopped the dose it would adjust eventually. (you know what I mean?) I appolagize for bitching about such a small dose when so many other people have much larger hurdles. I mean I consider myself an "old school" dope fiend and kicked countless dope habits but Damn! this is unbearable. Any suggestions would be very much appreciated. I haven't used any other drugs for 8 yrs and I'm just so close!
Please forgive my rambling
DIO

[DoesItEverEnd]

Got on Methadone 8 yrs ago after using heroin for 20yrs. (Prior to that I had only been on Meth for a few days here two weeks there.) After 5 yrs of 100mg/daily I started detoxing without problems until I reached 20mg. It got rough but I finally got down to roughly 1.25 mg day (cutting 5mg tabs into quarters) That was 2 yrs ago and I swear if I don't take that lousy 1.25mg I climb the walls. I wake up sick every morning. It takes about 5.5hrs before I feel better. The physical pain is minimal but still there. It's the anxiety (extreme edginess)and depression that's the problem. I mean this is rediculus. My body never seems to get used to this dose! Even after 2 yrs. Finally I decided to go to the emergency room tonight and ask to be admitted into inpatient detox figuring with some antidepressants etc I would "knock this out" I just got back home, they refused me saying that that small a dose can't be reaching my receptors and therefore it's purely psychological. There are times I've taken my dose (if you even wanna call it that) and have forgotton Iv'e taken it and said to myself "damn I feel fine and I didn't even take my dose", only to realise later that I did take it. So if that's the case how can it be a placibo effect. Unless subconciously I knew I took it. Anyway at this point Iv'e lost all hope. I'm in the bedroom, on the computer now, my wife is sleeping after she cried all the way back from the hospital. I tried everything, NA, acupuncture, seven or eight doctors.
I really do appolagize for bitchin about such a small dose when other people have much bigger hurdles. I consider myself an old school dope fiend but damn this is a *****. I thought about tryin St Johns Wort for the anxiety and depression (which is the worst part of the detox at this point)I'm leary of pharmaceutical antideppresants because I didn't wanna get caught up in another drug that I'd have to eventually have to detox from and get rebound anxiety and deppresion again. Is it possible that taking that small amount of meth is just enough to
hurt me more than help me? After 2 yrs is it at all possible to get used to this dose than drop a little more? Or at this point is the only way out to just stop taking the dose and live with the sleeplessness, anxiety, depression, etc. At this point I'm willing to start taking prescribed antidepressants. Iv'e kicked counless dope habits but never a semi-long term meth habit so any help is very much appreciated. I haven't used in 8 yrs and I'm just so close!
Please forgive my rambling,
Dio

[Brighty]

LOL.. no my mom didn't name me that... you can do that ? retract your ego ?? I like you already... my kinda guy.

Love, Brighty

[siliconboy]

I love the fact that the most retracted ego wins - I can do this :)
uranut Bright Light - are you sure your mom didn't name you that?
Just curios - you know what happened to those poor Zapa kids right?
David

[spook]

Heroin does not accumulate in the bone marrow or age joints or make teeth fall out,it does affect calcium absorption and assimilation(as all Opioids do) if used "excessively",but if normal amounts of calcium are taken ,sardines,milk,cheese,etc,then no problem will occur.It is just that Heroin addicts forget to eat proper nutritious foods and exercise.During withdrawal from Heroin it is common to have deep bone and joint pain.I have been using Opioids for about 20 years and their is nothing Physically wrong with me and when not stoned my brain is good too.Most of (all) of the health problems associated with long term Opioid use are caused by ignorance,like the addict will stop exercising,eat crappy food,inject bacteria into their veins,forget to take laxitives and get colon toxicity,inject Dope that has harmfull chemicals in it,etc,etc.Opioids are remarkable free of TOXIC effects,actually too much salt and fat will kill you quicker than Morphine or CLEAN PURE heroin.
Heroin does not get stored in adipose(fat)cells,I think you are thinking of THC or Methadone,in this case(THC) about 6 weeks.
You ask how to get it out but it is out by about 24hrs
The false positives are FALSE positives.
Brighty heroin just simply is not stored in the body,if she had some wierd liver enzyme problem and could not metabolize it then it would stay in her body for life,but the average liver breaks it down by 50% in 4 hours and then the kidneys remove it rapidly,some may exit in fecal matter,but only small quantities.
I am sad that she has HCV as it gets worse and she is sweet 16 and should be having a good time ,not locked in her house,with a virus that can and does eventually cause damage to the liver
The emotional pain and unnecessary fears are terrible.
I have had HCV for 20 years and my liver function tests are normal,but I get fatigue.Biopsy has confirmed a healthy liver!
Now onto this sperm THC thing,I heard that THC attaches to the sperm and can transfer into the blood from the cervix.
And yes a "baby"?(not quite-embryo) can be theoretically stoned at time of conception because the sperm has THC on it.
Hope you daughter continues to improve and that you do not have to suffer to much from her mistakes.
Sincerely Spooky

[Brighty]

You both have used too many drugs, you are both total creampuffs inside, you both have male egos, you both possess particular types of valuable intelligence and you have both hurt eachothers feelings. The reason God put women in the world is to make sure you males didn't remain as cavemen. We females are major contributers to the positive evolution of .. not humankind...but MANkind.

HE with the most retracted ego WINs.

I love you both.. now Spook... please note that you sent me good  information... but I do hope you can be more specific to my questions. Also, I usee the word urine in a sentence where I meant semen... you will see it.. and now I have corrected it.

Looking forward to your replies.

Love, Brighty

[siliconboy]

It's all good man - I had it coming :)

[spook]

Unlike Methadone Heroin does not accumulate in fat cells,to any significant degree,its half life is around 4 hrs,it takes around 6 half lives to completely elliminate a drug from your BLOOD STREAM,however it can be analysed from fingernail cuttings ,hair,sperm,etc for months or years after chronic use.
These sites of course do not denote/induce Physiological activity,they are just remnants,the military may use hair or finger nail analysis to detect drug use in prior 6 months,but civilians are only expected to give clean urine and blood samples.
One of the reasons it takes so long to withdraw from methadone is because of its slow trickle back into the blood stream from extravascular sites,causing a very prolonged but relatively mild? abstinence syndrome,besides 6 x 25 hrs(half life) = about 1 week just to clear from blood stream before withdrawals really DIG in,so they peak around say 10,then the trickle in effect prolongs it for months.

[siliconboy]

PS compadre - don't let your 195 IQ convince you that you are clever enough to get under my skin. Your greatest and most desperately needed aspect here is your compassion of which you obviously have much. You do spin a cool yarn but I **** around with anyone that I sense needs to be aired out a bit. Don't take it so hard. If I hurt your feelings I apologize sincerely. One thing that comes with being as intelligent as you are Luke is that you're different and that is an easy target sometimes. And sometimes you make it easy.. Oh and I'm not so certain that a level 8 would be so easily pulled into a battle wherein he/she felt compelled to use the terms of moron and "boy" to strike back. If you've actually been to the bardo - then ******* act like it dude.. :) I for one truly appreciate everyone on here and you're no exception - you know - Kindred Spirits and all that rot.
moron

[siliconboy]

kudos - you're right on all counts my dear - but spook didn't really hurt my feelings - I put myself out there to see what he had and I'm glad I did. Spook and I are the kind of guys where to get past a prolonged pissing contest you gotta pull yer pants down and see who's gonna play fairly - The one thing I like about the people I've heard from here and most dope fiends generally (when they're not trying to get over) is that openess and sense of fair play. Only when life has humbled you by kicking your smartass hard enough do you have the humility to do what spook and I are doing. He's a great nut and I value his presence. When we have another Bush in the whitehouse and things are a little scary it's nice to have dialogue with and refuge in the company of real human beans. We should all plan on meeting in the South Pacific at some later date - would be a major blast..

[spook]

I was very close to leaving the moron comment out,but I had taken xanax and alcohol and was like a level one at the time,I could feel levels 6 to 8  saying leave your ego out of this but the crappy xanax and alcohol just had to have their childish say in it all.Just my human side,the dual nature of living as a double agent.

[Brighty]

Regarding bone marrow... well I do know that is a popular belief,I also always heard,so I wouldn't expect Siliconboy to know that one, although I would not have expected him to be so hurtful to you on the other counts. All he had to do was say he didn't believe, all the mean comments were very unnecessary.

Now what about heroin ?? for years I heard that it makes the teeth fall out, ages the joints and also stores in bone marrow as well as fat cells. I do know that my daughter had horrible pains in her bones after she came off the stuff.. it's been 13 months off now and she says she still has some mild joint pain now and then, similar to what she would experience when she ran out or when she went through withdrawl... basically, what are the the long term effects of heroin or other heavy opiate use ???

Also, how long does it stay in fat cells ??? How do you think is best to get it out ?? Liver cleanse ?? Sweating in a Sauna ?? And would any of these practices cause a release into the bloodstream and ultimately to the urine producing a false positive ??? My daughter is on house arrest and drug tested regularly.... she has had a false positive once and the GCT proved it to be clean urine.. and not too long ago she had a false positive for THC and it was sent out for GCT and it came back clean... she also went immediately from probation to a hospital and had them do a test which also came back clean... so we are wondering and nobody can tell us anything.. just as long as the 2nd testing comes back ok... which they have.

This has caused her great emotional pain and unnecessary fears. She does have Hep C contracted 16 months ago but the doctors say her liver function is fine so that would not cause this... so what do you think ???? I think maybe stored in the body and being released at odd times ??

Here's another one... someone told her... her sponsor to be exact who is a nurse... that a woman should never have unprotected sex with a man who smokes pot because the THC is in the urine... the cervix is like a sponge to insure procreation... and the semen is soaked up by the cervix...if it has THC in it then it could get into the bloodstream, be passed in the urine and cause a false positive or also be in the fat cells of the fetus if pregnancy occurs. I have never heard ANY of this before so I hoping for clarification.

Thanks in advance. Love, Brighty

[siliconboy]

Thanks spook I thought you were full of yourself - just checking :) PS the doc that told me about the bone marrow thing - that was in 1975 and he the current thinking was that because of the extended half life and the way it is metabolized and the elevated serum levels et al., that an extended period of maint level dosage was allowing it to store not only in fat cells and tissues the way other substances do - it may also be stored in the marrow and hence come back out of the system very slowly and - well you know the rest you studied this **** for 23 years.... I qualified it by stating I never checked so - anyway, nice article and I stand corrected about the PET - you see I didn't study all that stuff - I'm a semiconductor engineer that has actually lived through all that **** with opiates and I speak as I remember hearing things explained and reguritate them in very lay terms - conceptually you might say. If I err on the technical details I beg your bluechip forgiveness as I speak from my experience. Tell me again spook - you walked away from a 130mg/day methadone habit?  Turkey? Yeah sure you did. You did good research and came back at me but I still got yer number spooky one :)
moron

[spook]

I left something out :the half life of Methadone is around 25 hours,not near infinite as you pathetically implied.And yes it does accumulate in extravascular sites.

[spook]

<a href="http://www.methadone.org/methadone_awareness_test.html" target="_new">Read this you moron you may learn something of value</a>.

PET scans are not used to verify number of Opioid receptors,but what would I know I have only spent 23 years studying and RESEARCHING Pharmacology,Psychiatry and Neurology.Positron emission tomography is used to map the localization of drugs binding sites using radioactive labeled glucose.Receptors numbers do not change from opioid use,Qualitative changes do occur though.

Quote:
"hey - anyone who believes that poor thing that calls itself spook (perfect) about anything and certainly about addiction and most especially kicking 130 mgs of methadone cold turkey - you get what you deserve. Ever see a PET scan of someone who's been using high doses of mehtadone for any length of time? opiate receptor count increases geometrically - what up spook - know yer **** about this stuff - step up baby, bring it - or shut up and stop the **** making like your some kind of superbeing
puhlease

PS - yo spook - know what ? don't bother - I was around when the first generation of idealistic wanna be hippie - beat poet - I got the answer to the worlds problems - spiritual chameleon fuckheads was talking that **** you talk - save it.


"I was told by an MD - never verified this so take it for what it is - that mehtadone, outside of having a hell of a long half life - stores in bone marrow and not just fat cells etc where most other drugs hide in the body"
=================================================================
Try not to make a COMPLETE fool of yourself in future posts.

[susanlea]

thanks so much for your replies. My now ex-boyfriend, he left again because he can't handle day to day life, was not on a program with the methadone. When he came out of detox he had to attend meetings twice aweek and had a sponser, after 2 months he discontinued going and blew his sponser off. Apparently he relapsed and was trying to hide it. Now it's almost a year later, he missed the whole month of Feb.sick again, and finally told his doctor the truth about the oxy's, this is the same dr. who gave him the methadone, no 12 step program, no sponser, just keeps taking the methadone as much as he wants. This is a vicious cycle and I'm tired, he's always had some drug, whether pot, coke, alcohol or pills. I'm afraid he'll never stop. I know the dr. won't give him the meths forever....without help I don't know what will happen, I pray for him everday, that he'll have a life again...he's already lost me, now he may lose his job, 38 and lost, no interest in sex, movies, life in general. All he does is sleep and watch TV, he can't even laugh. I would have helped him through anything, but I couldn't take the emotional and mental abuse any longer, I couldn't even get him to go to K-Mart, thank you for your support

[pinky to rebecca]

Methadone, from what my boyfriend tells me, is a synthetic opiate. It acts as the heroin did (or other opiate) and releases serotonin and thus suppresses any cravings the body once had for the previous street drug. But withdrawal is extremely tough off of methadone: sweating, diarrhea, aching, lacking complete energy. The opiate was their energy. Also, it (keep in mind I'm referring to heroin/methadone, i don't know what oxycontin is like) numbs you, so once you stop taking it or decreasing the dose the person's skin begins to crawl and is extra sensitive.

If your boyfriend is getting cranky off of 30mg, maybe it is not enough to completely supress the withdrawal symptoms. He doesn't feel physically well, and his attitude shows it.

I mentioned in a previous posting, I don't think the clinics encourage the person to detox as much as we would like to think they do. If your boyfriend wants to detox, he has to let them know. I don't think this is something they will decide for him. Be proactive about him getting off. It's in his best interest to do so as soon as possible. From reading this forum, I see some people can be on methadone for tens of years!

To follow up, my boyfriend used Catapres for four days. He was told this would flush the methadone out of his system and afterward never want it again. Well, it completely knocked him out, made him delirious (I hated to see him this way). After four days he felt very weak and still had cravings for methadone (because he knew that would give him energy). He went back and got a 20 mg pill after not having taken methadone for maybe 6 days. AND IT MADE HIM SO TIRED! I loved it because that meant his tolerance was down. So now he is splitting one pill in half  and takes half each day (10 mg). Even though it's a minor step back to 'resort back' to methadone, he is down to a  lower dose.

yay

So good luck with your man! Give him a couple beers and talk to him about coming off of it. Stay in 'the loop' with this addiction. He will feel more supported and will appreciate your concern in the end.
cat

[cindi]

Yeah,  I was going to say all that  LOL !!! very good informative post,,,love cindi

[Brighty]

I also agree with Cindi that Dan particularly has the best information on methadone here. I will add to Cindi's information for now... methadone is a long acting drug that will satisfy the desire for opiates thus preventing relapse... the psychology used in this maintenance program is that an addict can get his/her life back and not continue to relapse on their drug of choice. Traditionally methadone had been used for heroin addicts who simply became derelict because they had to resort to stealing and crime to afford to stay on it,social ostracism,and  also because heavy use of opiates causes people to get flat.. no interest in life except the drug itself... this is what I mean by derelict. There is a new opiate addict now.. oxy and the rx drugs... and they cause the same emotional and spiritual dereliction but with a somewhat slower decline and because there is not stigma or health concerns from needle use with rx pills.. there is however a problem for some with crime of perscription fraud.

Methadone seems to satisfy many of the problems related to addiction because it is legal and given in controlled doses along with mandatory 12 step programs and counselling.. that part is good. Seems that they dose based on the person's need related to how much oxy they were using. The drug has a long half life... that makes it very difficult to withdraw from ... it is also very addictive... but the program is set up to address all this.... thus larger doses in the beginning to satisfy the addict and tapering over a long period of time till they are both used to working a 12 step program and also physically able to be totally clean. Basically from what I have observed or been told methadone is good for constant relapsers giving them plenty of time to work out issues, get back together with families, get back to work and not have to continually be focused on getting a supply of drug which is a BIGGIE for addicts.. it seems to take up most of their time !!

That your boyfriend is mean and verbally abusive may be that he is tapered down too soon at some stage of the game OR... it may also be that he has issues that his drug was covering and now he is having to deal with them and the reality of everyday life again. This is why support groups, NA and other types of counselling are always recommended.  I am not an expert.. have learned much on this board from others and also other places as well. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

I am far from an expert on Methadone but I can share what I have learned about it just by coming to this forum.  It,  they say is a very good way to get off of Opiates without the withdrawals. and Yes, If this is what it is being used for then gradually the dose is tapered down and eventually there will be no need to continue the Methadone.unless after the withdrawal syndrome is over, the methadone is used for maintenance.  I think, if I am not mistaken, it is a very long acting drug and the dose is usually given once daily. Apparently it cuts down the cravings also.  I think also, now I am not sure but a person should not take other narcotics with methadone as it will throw them right into a withdrawal syndrome.. Like I said, I am not expert but this is what I have read and remembered.  I know that Doc Dan, Patrick or Spook can be a lot more help then I can but at least I gave you a start I hope. Cindi

[susanlea]

can anyone tell me what exactly does methadone do to an addict.  my boyfiend of 5 years was hooked on oxycotin for 2 years, went into detox, stayed clean for 4 weeks, went back and finally went to his doctor who put him on methadone. I was under the impression methadone was supposed to be weened down. He's been taking at least 30mg or more aday. Doesn't he eventually have to stop? He's also become mean and verbally abusive just like he was when he was withdrawing from the oxy's. Any information would be greatly appreciated. thanks

[siliconboy]

I was pretty hard on the spook because he says some really goofy stuff but i think his heart is in the right place. if he actually went off of 130mg of methadone (turkey) my hat is off to him. His suggestion that your mate return to that **** is ill advised to say the least. I was told by an MD - never verified this so take it for what it is - that mehtadone, outside of having a hell of a long half life - stores in bone marrow and not just fat cells etc where most other drugs hide in the body. I had a friend in college - 20+ years ago that was from Grosse point Mich - outside of Detroit. He had moved to Phoenix to attend school and get a fresh start - away from his junkie friends and the methadone clinics where they hung out. He had been on maint meth for 3 years at an average of 60 mgs per day. When I met him he was in one of my engineering classes and I noticed he was on the nod about 2 days out od the week. I finally confronted him and said "I suspect you and I are into the same thing". He told me he had detoxed down encrementally off of the methadone 6 months earlier and still could not get more than 3 hours of sleep and the sleep he did get was shitty.
So he would cop dope a couple times per week in part because he was still very much a junkie - but I got to be good friends with him and the sleep/mehtadone withdrawal thing was very legit.
That asme guy told me how he used to lay awake at night during the mid to late 60's and listen to the machine gun and rifle fire from neighboring areas 9 race riots) he first meth clinics opened the riots slowed way down. It was relatively easy to get in the program back in the day ... stuff to think about - tell yer boy I'm pullin' for him (and you cat)
L8R

[siliconboy]

hang tough kiddo - and remember if you don't take care of you, and get lost in his stuff - you will ultimately fail both of you. I know that you know this - but sometimes it's good to have it brought to our attention. The world needs tough and loving women - glad to have you on the planet :)
SB