6 year old expelled from school for bad behaviour, but is very good at home

[cookiek]

Please help.My just turned six year old son has been to fourschools since he turned  and has been asked to leave each one of them due to to exreme bad behaviour. He refuses to do what teachers tell him to do, and has even hit out at them. At school he refused to do any work or join in any craft or games activities. He was using bad language and verbaly and physically assauting other children. He did not respond to time out and does not care for sticker charts. He would promise us that he would not misbehave again, but everyday we were called in to hear a rap sheet of things he had done.

He is now homeschooled,as we cannot put ourselves through him being expelled from yet anoher school, and we have been homeschooling him for 5 months, but is being very defiant towards his tutor who comes in two afternoons per week. Refusing to learn for her and generally being very rude to her and messing around, just like he did in school. He also goes to a learning centre twice a week, but tonight we were told he was not welcome there anymore as he is being very difient and breaking the rules of the centre time and time again.

[cookiek]

sorry...my post was quite long and i dont think the last part showed, so here it is again.....

He has no learning difficilties. No autism or any other disorders, we have asked his doctors who can never understand what the schools are talking about as all they see is a lovely well behaved boy - as we do at home. the only bad behaviour we see at home is his rudness to his tutor. Hes a right boy who is learning (wothme) fast. We have no troubles with tantrums, bedtimes, food etc.

Why is he so awful at school or with tutors but fine for me? I could understand if there was a learning difficuly but its not. And its been four different schools, not just an isolated incident. My husband and I are at our wits end, we need him to go back to school at some point.

Teachers always thin we are lying when we tell them hes well behaved at home. HOw can we solve his behaviour when it happens outse the home?

[Natta1980]

When does he become aressive? Do noises usually bother him? Is it about transitions?

How many "scheduling" he has at home - my son started to exibit problematic behaviours in pre-school, once expectations of compliance are higher....he has compliance problems.

Could it be that at home he can do whatever he wants to and he wants to (I mean appropriate activities), while at school he is expected to follow a routine and participate in groups?

Have his evaluated with child development specialist - they do testing with fast switching between activities in schoo-like environment.

My son has problem participating in large groups and in noisy environment (when noises are made by people/kids, not equipment/cars, etc....)

Something at school is defenitely bothering him

Good luck

[cookiek]

It all kicks off when he is told what to do. He just does not like to be told what to do by teachers. Then they get frustrated with him, treat him differently, which makes him feel different to the other kids and makes him lash out as he get angry that hes been made to feel different. Then the other kids repeat negative things their parents have said about him being 'bad' which makes him angrier still.

Also, it seems when a teacher gets frustrated and takes it out on him by exerting thier authority over him, it just winds him up more. Then, the teachers blow every tiny thing he does out of proportion as they see him as a problem child, and then they begin to take it out on us that our child is causing them problems. Thats when they start accusing us of lying about his wonderful behviour at home (and other activites we do with large groups of kids outside of school).

At home we do not run on his scedule, we run on ours especially now we are homeschooling, so its not that. We also travel the world with him, he has been in so many countries this year alone, from Africa to Australia to Iceland, immersed in different cultures and structures, socialising with so many different children/adults. Not a hint of a problem. What i am getting at with that is that enviroment/transitions doesnt bother him. Hes happy as larry wherever in the world he is.

We have sent him to state, private and even an 'alternative' school.

The problems occur when he is told what to do by somebody in authority. I also have this problem (show me someone who truly doesnt!), I did as a child to, but i kept it inside, kept my mouth shut  and towed the line. He does not seem to have that filter.

Also, he is very capable at learning, he just does not want to. Its so infuruiating, as he is so bright.

[bananasmommy]

I know this is an old post and I really hope that your son is doing well now. I was wondering if it was possibly ODD - Oppositional Defiant Disorder. My daughter has it and she is the opposite, she is just lovely at school, but a terror at home. It can go either way or children with this disorder can have trouble in all environments. Basically, children with the disorder have major issues with authority, in that, they have no desire to listen to anyone in a position of authority. So parents, teachers, coaches, etc. It can stem from many different things, but mentioned that you and your family travel all the time. That could be what started it all. Although travelling is giving your son all these amazing experiences, at the same time, when they are young, they need routines and stability. Travel upsets that for them unfortunately. ODD is a completely treatable disorder, but if left untreated, can turn into conduct disorder, which isn't a good thing. Conduct disorder is essentially the adult version of ODD. Adults who have it and are not receiving treatment can have problems with the law, will abuse drugs and alcohol at a higher frequency than most and are more likely to be incarcerated.

Again, I know this post is quite old, and who knows, you may never even see this, but I thought on the chance that you do and if you still don't know what is wrong, maybe this is an avenue to check out. And if not, maybe someone else will stumble on your question and read my answer and get the ball rolling to for an ODD diagnosis of their child they are having problems with and find a happier, calmer, quieter path, with a much less daunting future!

[babygirl6152]

How does dad react? Is he sort of passive about it and just sort of saying "well we need to do better son"- ? Give me details how his dad reacts when He asks him to do something he does not want to do

[cookiek]

Like I said, he does what we tell him, so we do not really have these issues of him not behaving well  at home.

My husband is not passive at all. Niether of us will tolerate bad behaviour. he works from home, so he has been witness to all the school problems etc and is also here to witness the problems he gives the tutor ,who is amazing by the way. she never makes my son feel bad about himself or like an outsider like other teachers have done, she ignores the bad and praises the good. That is confusing the hell out of him at the moment, you can see it in his face. The cogs in his brain turning wondering why his horrible behaviour is not getting to her and making her angry and frustrated like it has done with other teachers. She has only been coming a few weeks so far, so fingers crossed, things may get better, I want him to see that not all teachers are the enemy. He aske me yesterday 'mummy, why is XXXX always smiling at me? why does she like me?'. Hopefully she will get through to him. I am not surprised he misbehaved at the learnng centre, his tutor there is an old battle axe and told the kids not to 'defy' her. Thats a red rag to a bull to my kid, no wonder he was pushing her as far as he could with his behaviour.

When there are occasions my son does something undesirable at home, eg,jumping on the bed, my husband or I only have to say 'please stop doing that', and he will stop immediatley and appologise to us. This is why we could never have inagined all the trouble we have had with school these past two years, he has always been very well  behaved as we swiftly dealt with any naughtyness as a youung child in a united way. He has never been able to play us off against each other, there is no 'good cop bad cop'.

We both talk to him regarding his behaviour with tutors etc. It is not just me dealing with it. Its both of us united taking away TV time etc.

I am just at a loss of how to help. We pay to see a pediatrician privatley as we do not se the NHS (we are in the Uk, so would not usually have access directly to a ped, just a GP) who the last time we saw him and spoke about these problems did not think he needed to be seen by anyone, he thought he was a lovely normal little boy and did not understand why he wouldnt behave, but in his experience could not see any issues and thought it would cause my son more stress to be seen by someone as hes a bright kid and some kids think there is something 'wrong' with them being sent to a specialist and it can make things worse .(hes seen my son every six months and now every year for routine check ups plus any immunisations, health checks and illnesses from birth, so knows him and us very well)  But, its been nearly a year since the last check up, and school situation has got worse since then.  We are going again in two weeks, so we will ask again, hes private, not NHS, so he will refer us to anyone we want to see to be honest.

[babygirl6152]

"I am not surprised he misbehaved at the learnng centre, his tutor there is an old battle axe and told the kids not to 'defy' her. Thats a red rag to a bull to my kid, no wonder he was pushing her as far as he could with his behaviour."
And there is my red flag that you victimize your child when he is need of correction.

well here is my honest response and you will not like it- the old lady battle ax is what he needed-
When we were growing up our fathers trained us:
You will respond to any authority with yes maam's yes sir, no maam's no sir, I don't know maa'm and would you please repeat the question? If there was not a question we were referred back to the above statements as acceptable answers. We did not talk back or defy authority even if the teacher was a battle axe because we knew mom and dad would be disappointed.

Like I said you won't like that tactic- but it's the one that works- next time he talks back raise your voice and say 'Did I ask you a question"? He has not been trained to be self disciplined and you will keep seeing this behavior until he does learn to be disciplined.
I have raised children this way too and it does work.
It's time- but if you choose not to be tough, you are in for a child that runs thru you pretty soon.

[cookiek]

I'm sorry, but if you read my responses you will see that I DO raise him like that! I said myself and my husband do NOT tolerate bad behaviour, that we were stern with any naughtyness when he was tiny so we DO NOT get any misbehaviour at home. I can count the numebr of times he has acted out at us on one hand and it only takes a no from us to stop the behaviour immediatly. HIs problems do to lay at home so I am not asking for advice on what to do at home.

I am not victamising my child. I used the example of the old batte axe to reiterate the problem he seems to have with authority, that its like a red rag to a bull with him.

My sons behaviour at school had made me feel sucidal, i am not vicamising nor sticking up for him.I know he has the problem not the teachers. i came here to get advice on the SCHOOL situation.

PLease read my responsed before you give me advice on what to do 'the next time he talks back'. If you had you would have read that he does not talk back to me or my husband. His problems are with school and a learning enviroment. i cannot control how the teachers deal with him, they will not listen to the parent.

[cookiek]

and yes, i agree he needs an old battle axe, to stick with it, but they just keep expelling him instead of sticking with the correction!

[RockRose]

Is he being kicked out of private schools where the behavior is expected to be very good,  and the parents of  other pupils will start to complain (and even withdraw) from the school if there are difficult children?   So there's no real motivation on the part of the school to deal with a difficult child,  and a great deal of motivation to expel a child when it becomes clear that in general,  they are a discipline problem?

In public schools in the US there isn't that dynamic.  The school is stuck with whatever child that enrolls,  and they have to work it out one way or another.  There's no saying that kid won't behave,  don't bring him back.

What would happen if your husband sat in on tutoring and MADE him behave?  Just sit there,  in the back of the same room,  but when your son pops off,  that's it,  it has to stop?  

He has learned that he can just misbehave so horribly that eventually he won't be allowed back to that school or situation.    The fact that he behaves so well at home is a very good indicator that he has good impulse control,  he just struggles in school and chooses not to use his impulse control because he gets so richly rewarded for acting out - he doesn't have to go back.

Also,  he's old enough at this point to reason with.  You need to ask him what feelings come before his acting out (frustration,  boredom,  whatever it is) and teach him to predict the escalation and make it stop.

He wouldn't be doing this at boot camp,  for sure.  It's in his control to stop it,  he just doesn't seem to see any real reason to.

Best wishes.  

[babygirl6152]

This won't get us anywhere and I will give you the last word but I do not for one minute believe he has never been disrespectful or disobedient at home. If that is so then you must require nothing of him where he is ever put in a position to disobey.....
you say this is a school issue but he represents you and your family every time he walks out of that house= disobedience and disrespect to any adult is disrespect to his parents. I don't know why you don't see it. Just disappointing his parents should be enough to make him behave.

"Also, it seems when a teacher gets frustrated and takes it out on him by exerting thier authority over him, it just winds him up more. Then, the teachers blow every tiny thing he does out of proportion as they see him as a problem child, and then they begin to take it out on us that our child is causing them problems. " This is your biggest concern- this is making your child sound like a VICTIM and that he is being "wronged"- a teacher is human. They usually have tons of patience but your child possibly uses up a years' worth of patience in a week.

btw again- this is what you said- it sends mixed messages to your son if you even feel this way let alone say it-
"no wonder he was pushing her as far as he could with his behaviour." Rockrose had an excellent suggestion- having a parent sit in for tutoring or at school can work- in public schools we call it 'shadowing'/ the child has to be shadowed for a week by the parent instead of receiving  a school suspension.

Good luck

[Natta1980]

He clearly hates school. Look for a source of anxiety. This inconsistency proves that school is the source. There is a reason why he behaves this way. babygirl 6152, I agree with you on many points, but behaving at home where all is familiar is one thing, while dealing with peers on a daily basis and putting up with academical demands is another. The fact that he resists a tutor as well may mean that he struggles academically. Is there a particular subject he struggles with? Try to talk to his current teachers and find out when behaviors occur. Is it only when they ask him to join certain activities. or when they raise their voice? My son misbehaves at school when he is tired, and it is noisy. He has other challenges as well, but he learned to put earphones on/cover his ears when there is a noise that he cannot tolerate. Thus no tantrums. He also cannot handle anyone raising their voice at him, it should be as little emotional response as possible, plus exp[lanation AFTER he is calm. babygirl - children are so different, and your children may have their neurvous system wired in a completely different way than cookiek's child. Talk to behavioral analyst - 4 schools is lots of schools.

[Natta1980]

My son also never responded to time-outs and sticker charts - time-out at school is not really a threat for a child that does not want to join activities anyway. He may need support with tteaching him to attend activities - transitions for travel is one thing, transitions between preffered and non-preffered, individual and group activities may be a lot tougher......Are schools private or public? How long they allowed your son to be at those schools? I hope they at least gave him two weeks at each...Anyway, try to work with teachers, be on their side, you maybe sound oppositional since it is his 4th school and I understand it very well. Make sure that they know that their opinions and expertise are valued - I am in constant communication with all of his teachers (both at school and after-care programmes), and they really appreciate all feedback, we communicate as to what works and what does not. He is always the teacher's favorite, in spite of all his behaviours.......

Your son is just a 6 year old, and all these changes and new environments maybe a bit too much for him, he knows that "something is wrong". I do not beleive that at this age children have a capacity to "disrespect their parents" - some children learn appropriate behaviours from their environment, and some just do not, and need to be taught

Ignoring bad and praising good behavior may be the best approach for the teacher.

Good luck by all means.

[margypops]

Well I have read all this bad behavior regarding  a 6 year old, it seems to me it is really a matter for better Parent /child interaction and I agree with the above post when she says Ignoring bad and praising good behavior wouledbe the best approach for parents and Teachers.It is always a problem on the interaction and re reading the posts you can actually see what is happening.

[binnks]

I think you all need to learn the difference between discipline and punishment.  I am so glad my children had some good teachers like ME and then they had those mean hateful teachers that would make comment like > Did I ask you that Q > throwing disrespect back in their face, like two children fighting on the playground. Most children act up in school because not all teachers should even teach, they treat children badly and the kids hate it and try anything to get out of the classroom. But your child sounds like he has a Separation Anxiety disorder I suggest You see a Child Psychologist. Most teachers don't understand this and just think it's bad behavior. And the battle axe is one thing he does not need, don't ever let a teacher mistreat your child!!! I was a preschool teacher and now a MA for a Dr. and I have seen this behavior before. I home school my little one now too, due to there are so many bad teachers out there. My child's teacher would make him fell bad about himself for not raising his hand and she would get mad at him if he got a math problem wrong, and would tell him in front of his peers, how could you get that wrong your on presidents list. He was so scared to go to school, due to 1 bad teacher I couldn't even get him to go into the private school. Do you sit at the table with him and his tutor? When I take mine 4 his testing, I have to be with him because he is scared to be alone with any type of teacher now. Something could have happened at school you don't know about. I don't know what the UK has 4 home schooling, but mine goes to ( k12.com ) and all the tutoring is online with other kids in the classroom, my son really enjoys this. maybe they have it out there, I really don't know. Good Luck :)

[binnks]

I think you all need to learn the difference between discipline and punishment.  I am so glad my children had some good teachers like ME and then they had those mean hateful teachers that would make comment like > Did I ask you that Q > throwing disrespect back in their face, like two children fighting on the playground. Most children act up in school because not all teachers should even teach, they treat children badly and the kids hate it and try anything to get out of the classroom. But your child sounds like he has a Separation Anxiety disorder I suggest You see a Child Psychologist. Most teachers don't understand this and just think it's bad behavior. And the battle axe is one thing he does not need, don't ever let a teacher mistreat your child!!! I was a preschool teacher and now a MA for a Dr. and I have seen this behavior before. I home school my little one now too, due to there are so many bad teachers out there. My child's teacher would make him fell bad about himself for not raising his hand and she would get mad at him if he got a math problem wrong, and would tell him in front of his peers, how could you get that wrong your on presidents list. He was so scared to go to school, due to 1 bad teacher I couldn't even get him to go into the private school. Do you sit at the table with him and his tutor? When I take mine 4 his testing, I have to be with him because he is scared to be alone with any type of teacher now. Something could have happened at school you don't know about. I don't know what the UK has 4 home schooling, but mine goes to ( k12.com ) and all the tutoring is online with other kids in the classroom, my son really enjoys this. maybe they have it out there, I really don't know. Good Luck :)

[cookiek]

I dont know how to anser all the pints, but here are a few

'but mine goes to ( k12.com ) and all the tutoring is online with other kids in the classroom, my son really enjoys this.'

yes, this was the one he was asked to leave ysterday.

We have started sitting in with the tutor. Makesno difference. He misbehaves with her, we tell him to stop, He says ok i will and then does it again.

He has been to both private and state school, staying on average 3-6 months in each.

He does n struggle at all acidemically, hes completley average. There are no learning diicuties, he just does not seem to want to learn.

He not scared to be alonw with other people. He goes out with frinds of ours and enjoyy it, and always 'obeys' them too.

School makes him angry and frustrated and I dont know why.

I will say again that I AM NOT VICTIMISING MY CHILD. He has the problem, nit the teahers. I am telling you all the problems that have occoured. JUmping on me does not help me. I am so depressed over thisI am finding it hard to function. and beofre anyone say it NO hes nit oicking up on it and thats why hes acting out, its his behaviour at school that has led me to feel so wrteched.

Stop turning it round on me.  The problem lays at school.

And yes, he has obvoiusly learned that if he mis behaves he gets kicked out, hes not stupid.

I am going to duck out of this forum now as like everything else it goes round in circles with me getting the blame.

[binnks]

I was not picking on you, I was telling some of the users they needed to learn the difference from discipline and punishment

I wanted to help you, so just try to relax. I know how heartbreaking it is when you can't get your child to go to school. Not many people understand, not even the people close to you. I want you to hang in there. I know your not hurting your child. I can read the sadness in your post.

Im having trouble understanding some of your words you write and maybe your having trouble with mine. Because I am in Ca. and your in the Uk

> I wrote you ~ something could have happened at school )  And you are saying ~ The problem lays at school.

you say he has no learning diicuties and I understand this. But he should see a > Child Psychologist.

There is something that must have happened at school and a > Child Psychologist has ways through play to find out what the problem is and help the child.


When you see your GP tell him you want to see a Child Psychologist.
Other adults or children don't need to know.
Only you and his father need to go and take him to get help.

The tutor sounds like a very nice teacher and thats what he needs.
Keep her coming over.

  I wish you and your family the best of luck.

[sole20ani]

My son is 6 and in Kindergarten. I have to tell you that I cry at least once a month when I am getting a phone call to come and pick him up as they do not want him on the bus. Just today he was expelled for a day and forced to miss his Valentines day party at school tomorrow. He lost it the last 45 minutes of school. He decided he wanted to run around the classroom and not sit down for which the counselor sent him to the principal. This is a common occurrence with him. He does not have ADHD and is highly intelligent, he is often bored by curriculum. We have tried both positive and negative reinforcement but nothing is helping. He made it through Pre-K last year but the beginning of the year was a bumpy road. The counselor in K, who is a mean condescending wench with no children of her own tells me that on days his teacher tells me he had a great day she calls and tells me that it is not true and goes on to tell me all the minuscule things that he did wrong. She makes it sound unheard of that a 6 year old were to ever stick out his tongue or say a bad word. I am ready to go insane but can not possibly home school as we both work full time jobs. Someone please help, and yes we have had him evaluated and when they do it he is always on his best behavior and charming so they find nothing wrong.

[CG24]

I  have dealt with behaviors just like this with my two sons.  They are 20 and 16 now.  It is critical to find a dr, therapist, behavioral person you trust and believe in. And it is very important to look at their experience and "success record".  Many of these folks have seen so much and can really cut to the chase and help you and your child fairly quickly  -  and that is important because this is so frustrating for the family. I know it is frustrating for the child but I know the flood of emotions it can pour onto a family.  You may be looking at bipolar disorder - I think one or two schools can be "wrong" - perhaps not handling things the best they could - but 4 or more is pretty much against the odds. When in doubt follow your parental gut - only you know what it is like - how much more you all can endure. I encourage you to stress this to the professionals -find a dr who will truly listen to your story. And if that one won't  - do your best to find one who will.
All the best.

[babuska]

As I read all of this it saddens me. My son also had all these behavior problems and still does, Anger, oppositional, had social issues because no one could stand being around him, suspended from school more times then I can remember. It wasn't until 7th grade that he was diagnosed with aspergers.( autism spectrum ) He is 14 now has some moments, but otherwise is doing great with the proper therapy. ( no medication ) Unless you know him personally you wouldn't even know he has a medical condition. He was evaluated at genius level and plans to go to Harvard. He keeps busy all the time, too much time on his hands and he gets restless. Friends and Family just love being with him, Such a diffrence from when he was younger, and a looker too, girls just swarm around him, I have to chase them away. My point is that there is hope if he gets the proper medical evaluation and therapy forget everything else. Let the professional tell you what the problem is. Please read Lynn Clarks book entitled SOS: Help for Parents
Its a wonderful book about managing childrens behavior. Many with similar problems have derived great benefit from it.

[Eoinsmom]

Is it possible your son has oppositional deviant disorder?  He may know that you and daddy are safe ground.  He may also see if he is obnoxious he goes home.  Probabily where he wants to be.  The hitting other kids etc.  may be his way of manipulating the situation.  Children that make these choices do so with out understand the situation.  Apparently the schools you've dealt with are not used to dealing with children outside the box.    These children are difficult but they need to be given different choices along side the other children.  Does he respond to contests?  Is he competative?  Are sports his thing?  You say you and dad don't tolerate this behavior and you don't see it at home.  The trick to this is gonna be to find out what runs this kid?  What can you take from him that he values to make a dent in his world?  He oviously has had alot of rejection from these schools and other kids and adults. Poor kid, he doesn't have the skills to deal with it.  What is he really good at?  Is he artistic or physical or acedemic?

[stressedout162]

Hi there, I am very similar to you.My child got suspended end of prep year,with reasons exagerated,and now suspended 4 times this year in grade 1.I am scared to change schools,but the school is definately an issue.He has now ran away from school,and I am scared for his safety.I will go down the paediatric route,to do all I can,but do not wish to medicate my son,and have concerns of misdiagnosis.It seems to me that if a child does not fit in the obedient range,the schools wont put in place simple extra procedures to deal with the issues.We live in a time where there isnt the patience for children as in the past,and the teachers cant handle these children in the stressful world we live in.These kids need help,but they dont seem to get it. And I have no idea what to do with my  situation,just like you.

[Sandman2]

  You don't want to change schools without first researching the new school.  They may be just like the old school - or they could be a heck of a lot better.  
   the advantage of staying with the present school is that help should arrive sooner.  If you go to a new school, it could be months before they see the problem.  
   And I do think that there is a problem.  Yes, the teachers may not have the patience they had in the past.  However, unless a lot of the kids are being suspended and running away from school - you son is doing things that are a bit beyond normal.  He needs help.  
   Definitely seek medical help.  But also try and work with the schools.  They should have some experience with this.  Ask for there help.  Don't fight them (yet).  See what they have to offer.  Many times once a child is identified with something like ADHD (may not be that, but its a good example), the teachers attitude changes.  The child gets extra help, etc.
  I can certainly understand your concern.
  If you want to make sure that he is not misdiagnosed, then you need to read up on ADHD.  Lots of sites out there that can help.  I also highly recommend the book,  "The ADD/ ADHD Answer book," by Susan Ashley (Amazon carries it).  Hope this helps.  I am over on the ADHD site all the time if you have any more questions.

[Sandman2]

   I should also have mentioned that your child (children) could have SPD or Sensory Processing Disorder.  They will be pretty good at home, but a disaster at school.  Google SPD and check it out.