Help!! gallstones , I don't want surgery ....

[attack_again]

Help!
I am having attacks every few weeks...

I just got diagnosed with gallstones. (multiple stones - on ultrasound)

Doctor wants to remove my gallbladder. NO!

Help, I am scared of surgery ...

What can I do instead ? Diet?
Can gallstones be dissolved?

thanks in advance

attack_again

[Juicer12]

A related discussion, Gallstone passage was started.

[snookems86]

maybe i can get some help my mother is 64 has copd , lung cancer etc along with gall stones cant have surgery and some gall stone meds shes allergic to . is there an alternative like ultrasound crushing if there is where ? and if not could someone help on advice for me . my mom is in alot of pain and drs here arent helping they wont do surgery because shes way high risk ty

[Lorio]

Oh...now that is great to read.  I am seeing my gastro May 2nd and I'm gonna ask him about this.  What would be nice is if we had info on how we can reduce to concentration of bile.  Would drinking more water help with this problem?  If anyone hears, please post.

[Kat2u]

My word drumgal! Your story is exactly like mine! Right down to the 3 weeks ago, not making it to the consultation and having to go back to the hospital 5 days later! (pain but I was vomiting too) I could have written your post myself.

I would like to add, I am very happy with my GB surgery!!

[TazLady]

I have a question for you.  I have had a stent placed in my pancreatic duct.  I have been through 2 ERCP's that the specialist considered major surgery without cutting through my tummy.  I have no nausea or fever or pain, but am having spasms.  Kinda like if you take a bite of food that is too big, but you swallow it anyway.  It goes down hard and slow.  That is what is happening to me after I eat.  Is that normal?  I do not wanna go back to the hospital if I can avoid it.  And how long should it last?

I had no pain when they placed the stent and was allowed to go home the next day.  I am told that if they remove it and I have no pain I can go home that same day.  I just feel sore in that area, aside from the spasms.

Thanks for the advice,
TazLady

[GI.PA]

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Why so many gallbladders out?  We live in a medical test age and when a patient has a complain (abdominal pain) we order the next logical test (ultrasound) and if there are gallstones...well you just bought a gallbladder surgery.  The problem..not enough surgeons (or family doctors) educate their patients about the possibilities of other causes to their pain.  The good surgeons (or the family doctors that send them the surgeons) continue looking for the cause for a few weeks (trying a med for reflux...perhaps getting an upper endoscopy, trying some IBS meds ect).  The really good ones even send them to us (gastro) first and get our take on things..(you would be suprise how often those innocent gall stones get blamed..when something completely different can be going on).

Ok...now for your particular case...It is very possible that you pancreas could have been contributing to your pain all along.  For example...the gallstones can clog the plumbing between the liver, gallbladder, and pancreas which can cause a painful backlog which can irritate the pancreas over time. Fortunately, it seems they have finally figured out that pancreatic enzymes are very helpful for you (replacing the enzymes that your pancreas stopped making) and as far as meds go...they are pretty easy on the wallet and on the system.  

I agree, we are tempted to lable IBS a little too quickly at times.  If you have a large university around you, it may be worthwile to get another opinion..never hurts to have someone else take a look at your case.  (we use hopkins or university of Maryland)...Make sure you get all your records so that their evaluation is effecient.

GI-PA

[Baseball_Mom]

Hello - Since you are a Gastroenterologist, can you please try and clarify something for ALL of us on this board?  Why does it seem like alot of people who have been told that it is definitely their gallbladder that needs to be removed, continue to have problems AFTER surgery.  I had my Gallbladder removed on April 11, 2001.  I continued to have pain and discomfort so in November of 2001 I had an ERCP with Sphincterotomy done.    That didn't seem to do anything but set me up for pancreatitis.  I have now be told that I will have to live on Digestive Enzymes the rest of my life.  Could it have been my pancreas all along and NOT my Gallbladder?  As long as I take the digestive enzymes BEFORE EVERY MEAL the pain doesn't feel so bad.  But if I forget to tell them, boy my body lets me know.  I just don't understand why so many GI doctors from around the country just look at their patients like we are all a bunch of nut cases.  Are there certain words that "trigger" concern in the GI world, that perhaps us patients aren't using.   I know I'm fed up with the GI doctors that I go to here in Virginia.  They look at me like I've got three eyeballs or something.  They have even made me think everything is in my head and when they couldn't give me an answer I automatically have IBS.  Well, unfortunately for me, I've had some problems where I've been under the care of a Colon/Rectal Specialist and have had discussions with him on the IBS theory and he doesn't believe that is what it is.  Although he is not a GI doctor, he gets tired of the GI doctors just blamming everything on IBS.  Any insight you can give to us on the forum concerning this would be greatly appreciated by all.  Thank you for your time.  I look forward to hearing back from you.  Have a TERRIFIC WEEK!

[GI.PA]

I hear your points but let me explain something.  

After schooling for 6 years to treat pateints and as a specialist in gastroenterology, I think I have earned the right to comment on this.

All I am is saying is don't put your hope in the gallstone flushing theory.  If it doesn't work, modern medicine with proven medical evidence will gladly help you.  It is you, the patient, who will be the ultimate benifiter or loser in this situation and we, as health care providers, are just here to guide you.

If it was my patient, or my mom, or my sister, I would not delay sugery unles I had scientific (READ:  DOUBLE BLINDED, PLACEBO CONTROLLED, STATISICALLY SIGNIFICANT) evidence.  I have checked out the, so called facts, with this theory and I have yet to see a REAL STUDY..just a bunch of testimonials that could have easily been written by anyone.

GI-PA

[drumgal]

Hi,
I just had my gallbladder removed three weeks ago. On a Tuesday they diagnosised me with a gall stone, they wanted to set up a consultation for me to see a surgeon to think about me having my gallbladder removed, I never made it to the consultation, my gallbladder decided for me.  I had pains, went into the ER they loaded me with pain killers and the next day the surgeon said he could remove the gallbladder, or would I want to keep going through all the pain and running into the ER all the time.  I don't know to much about this flushing business, but I wouldn't want to keep going in to have my gallbladder flushed.  I would rather have the bladder removed and be done with it.  After surgery I was doing fine, then five days later I had such great pains you would not believe it.  I could hardly breath, or walk, or anything.  Back to the ER I went.  Loaded me with more pain killers, did a CAT scan, blood test, and urine test. Every thing was fine.  They sent me home with Tylox.  Next day I seen the Doc. who said I could of pulled a muscle.  Took four Advil three times a day and I was better.  What they don't tell you is that the gas they put into you to blow you up so they can see inside of you, can have a big effect on you.  My pain afterwards could of been from the gas.  The Doc. never did mention anything about the gas so I took it that I had pulled a muscle.  Right now I am fine.  For me recovery time was about two weeks because of the muscle.  I do cleaning for a living, so I wasn't in a hurry to go back to work.  I hope everything turns out all right for you.  Only you can decide what is best for you.  Good luck!!

[Baseball_Mom]

I know what you mean about not wanting surgery.  I've had my fair share of surgery in the past two years.  There is a prescription drug called Actigall that is used mainly on patients who are risky candidates for surgery.  If you are that addiment about not having surgery, ask your doctor if you could try this.  It is a very slow acting drug so it might take weeks or months to work, but is definitely an alternative to surgery.  I know about this drug because AFTER my gallbladder was removed I was put on it because I was still having pains.  The medication worked great.  After 4 weeks I was feeling like a new woman.  Then week 5 started and I became allergic to the medication and broke out in hives all over.  Unfortunately I had to stop taking it.  Ended up having an ERCP done and landed in the hospital with Pancreatitis for 3 days and out of work for a month.  Well, that's my 2 cents worth.  Take care and have a TERRIFIC weekend.

[attack_again]

5 years ago I came with strong pain, and it was appendicitis (sp). They told me I need surgery. "Minor" surgery. I said yes. (That was my mistake.) Something went wrong. They cut something (I think) that was not supposed to be cut. I almost died. I was in a lot of pain; I was hoping to die - that kind of pain. More then 3 weeks in the hospital, and over 6 months to recover. The worse experience ...  I never got to know what really went wrong. They said that something inside of me was wrong. (They tried to cover up-I bet) I promised to myself: I would die, but I wont let them cut me again. Surgery is absolutely not an option for me. I wishe I didnt learn first hand that proven and useful therapies can render me in much worse condition.
Can't gallstones be dissolved with something? What have been people doing 300 years ago? They must have had some options?
Is it true that surgery is the only option?
I would like to know what is the risk in doing liver flush?
Are there any statistics? How many people die when doing it? How many people get worse? What can happen? GI., LittleJen, why is it dangerous to flush?  Do you know anyone who have gotten worse after?  Is it dangerous to drink Epsom salts? What can happen? Is it dangerous to drink oil? Can gallstones stuck? Can I get an attack?  The last thing I want to do is to end up worse then what I am now. I know I have many questions, but I don't intend to go on with those attacks for the rest of my life. Help!

[tisha17]

Please look up the web site www.curezone.com!!!  


It will answer the questions you have about liver cleansing.  If it doesn't, you can ask questions there and they will be answered.  You are right to at least be a little nervous about surgery.  This liver cleanse is alternative medicine.

From what I have learned, by the time a person is about 35 to 40  they may have about 2000 stones collected in their gall bladder or liver.  Most of these stones are small, the size of a lentil, or even smaller.  Some of them that have been there for a while may be bigger.  I flushed out 4 on my second liver cleanse that were (-----)that big.  It did not hurt!  

Please go to that web site. WWW.Curezone.com.  It won't cost you a thing to look. There are letters from people who are skeptical or afraid that it will hurt.  Just read the letters.    You can do this liver cleanse for about $5.00. The ingredients are Epsom salts, olive oil, grapefruit juice and apples.  Just things you can get at the store.  If you have doubts about surgery at least this is worth a try.

Tisha17

[attack_again]

I found page of "Centre for Digestive Diseases"
http://www.limit.ac.uk/gallstones.htm
With a lot of good info on gallstones. Nothing about flush.

"Gallstones vary in size and may be as small as sand grains or as large as a plum. The gallbladder may develop a single, often large, stone or many smaller ones, even several thousand."

So, if it is true, then "several thousand" is not unusal?
Little Jen? Where did you get that 3000 number?

[littlejen02]

Hello Attack Again --

I am not a doctor so i don't know everything... but i'll try my best to answer your question.

I got the 3000 # just as an estimate, after reading what the liver flush tells you to do. It says that you should be getting rid of about 3000 or more before you can stop, and before you'll get better.

I really have nothing to say anymore because no matter what i do say, i'll lose at it.

Consuming epsom salt will not hurt you
( unless you have heart problems or a kidney disorder ).  It will just cause you to take my trips to the washroom.

Consuming a 1/2 cup of olive oil will not hurt you, if anything it'll just make you nauseous. That's alot of fat/oil for your liver to process.  You might even throw up if your liver can't handle it.

And of course, consuming the grapefruit juice will not hurt you, unless you're allergic to grapefruits.

There is a small possibility of an ACTUAL gallstone
( if you have any ) getting stuck in the bile duct, which will cause for an emergency trip to the hospital.

All of the above probably isn't terribly unsafe,  but it won't do, is what it says it is intended to do.

Like i said before, the whole "liver flush" was created by quackasaurus rex, Hulda Clark, who claims she can cure every disease known to man.
For more about what a nut she is, go to the following link :

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html

That alone should tell you what is truth, and what is not.
The entire CureZone.com site as well, follows every belief she has, and promotes her liver cleanses, and "parasite" beliefs.

Do not read any testemonials on those sites, they mean nothing, and could be written by the same person multiple, if not a hundred times.    

Its all up to you.

I at one point was even considering doing one in the past, but something stopped me, and im glad i never did it.

I'd go to your doctor, and ask for true help, tell him everything, and see your options.
If your current doctor is not doing it for you, and doesn't seem interested, seek out one who will.
Just get on it, because the longer you wait, the more you'll keep wondering.

Best of luck Attack Again --

LilJen

[littlejen02]

Like G.I. PA said,  do NOT buy into the whole liver/gallbladder flushing idea, no matter what the few people who tell you to do it say.  If you read the entire idea, sit back and honestly analyze it even by yourself and think about it in all aspects, it should hit you that it's complete nonsense.

Where would there be room for 3000 stones in your liver and gallbladder?

Think about it.


Be positive and you'll get through this, and don't go doing anything unproven and useless as it might render you in worse condition.

[tisha17]

In my opinion you should not buy into the opinion that a gall bladder surgery is easy on your body and that the recovery time is minimal.  

Gall bladder flushing or liver cleansing is a real option.  I  have done it five times.  My husband has done it twice.  I have a friend who just recently was faced with GB surgery. She had heard me talk about the cleanse and said that one day she might try it.  Well, her body decided for her.  She decided to try to do the gall bladder flush to see if it would help.  She removed about 20 stones.  When she went back to the doctor he said that her gall bladder was empty but that she still had to have it removed because it was only functioning at 8%.  She was in pain so she went ahead and did it.  Now she is still in a lot of pain.  It's in the same place that it was before surgery and before the cleanse.  Having her gall bladder removed did not relieve her pain. She went back to the doctor and he told her he would run more tests.  He didn't tell her before the surgery what to expect after.  There are lots of stories of people who had surgery and still are having trouble.

When you do a gall bladder cleanse you will need to do more than one.  One usually will not rid your body of years of unhealthy eating and the accumulation of stones.  I had hoped that by my friend doing this cleanse it would relieve her pain enough to be able to do another cleanse and flush out the pain causing stone(s). That was not the case.

Now after the surgery, she still has pain, and she can't eat anything but jello and salads without throwing up.  

This seems to be a controversial subject.  No one should tell you what to do.  All anyone can do is reccommend.  You need to do the research in order to know if this is what you want.  You said that you did not want surgery.  I would sure check into liver cleansing on the internet especially www.curezone.com as has been suggested on previous posts.  You may still need surgery but don't go into it blind.  Know what your options are.
Tisha 17

[GI.PA]

Please do not buy into the gallstone flushing theory.  There is absolutely no medical evidence to back this up and it can be dangerous.  

Gallstones only rarely can be desolved and that treatment is a last resort for pateints who are not good surgical cantidates.  The surgery is very easy now days, with very little recovery time, a very few complications.

GI-PA