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Recommendation on Hydrolyzed Protein Dog Food
My dog is now eating Hill's Ultra Z/D prescription Kibble. I purchase it from our Vet.
I'd like to have a choice of dog food with this type of protein treatment (hydrolyzed),
We have a near-by pet store (private local owned) that specializes in special needs dog food. I will try to get advice from them tomorrow if I can get in...we are expecting snow.
The whole protein "thing" is we suspect our 9 year old Westie has a food allergy to protein. He has been on No Gran and that doesn't do the job, still has skin/ear itch yeast problems.
I'd like to have a choice of dog food with this type of protein treatment (hydrolyzed),
We have a near-by pet store (private local owned) that specializes in special needs dog food. I will try to get advice from them tomorrow if I can get in...we are expecting snow.
The whole protein "thing" is we suspect our 9 year old Westie has a food allergy to protein. He has been on No Gran and that doesn't do the job, still has skin/ear itch yeast problems.
Hi Jerry. You seem to have a good handle on things, no doubt having taken the learning curve along with a bit of necessary trial and error. Just one point ... while meat proteins are without doubt the most common food allergens causing problems in most dogs, there actually are vegetable proteins that also produce allergic reactions. The fruits and vegetables most commonly causing allergies in dogs include cucumber, melon, watermelon, zucchini, pumpkin, banana, avocado, kiwi, peas, green beans, lentils, apple, pear, cherry, peach, and plum. The same scenario exists as with meat proteins. An allergy usually triggers according to the specific family of fruit and vegetable, and therefore swapping from one family to another can make a big improvement. For example, the cucurbitaceae family include cucumber, melon, watermelon, zucchini and pumpkin - so swapping one of these to something else gives the immune system something new to consider, as it were.
As with all allergies, it's a case of trying to find something completely new to the dog that usually succeeds, at least initially. So for example, dogs in the UK are not used to eating kangaroo, even though those in Australia and New Zealand are used to having that particular kind of meat. I have known dog owners in the UK that have an extremely food allergic dog, but when they swapped to feeding kangaroo based (imported) dog food, the allergy problem has disappeared.
The same is true of grains and pulses. When a dog has never had rice, but still develops an allergy to kibble (for example), the swap to rice as a mixer has worked to rid the allergy.
A lot of it is just trial and error. Finding a solution is often hard work, but perseverance usually pays off in the end. Tony
As with all allergies, it's a case of trying to find something completely new to the dog that usually succeeds, at least initially. So for example, dogs in the UK are not used to eating kangaroo, even though those in Australia and New Zealand are used to having that particular kind of meat. I have known dog owners in the UK that have an extremely food allergic dog, but when they swapped to feeding kangaroo based (imported) dog food, the allergy problem has disappeared.
The same is true of grains and pulses. When a dog has never had rice, but still develops an allergy to kibble (for example), the swap to rice as a mixer has worked to rid the allergy.
A lot of it is just trial and error. Finding a solution is often hard work, but perseverance usually pays off in the end. Tony
I do much as Margo does, I used 4Health Salmon/SweetPotato canned and Taste-of-the-Wild Salmon/Sweet Potato Kibble. Our Westie is a water gulper his water dish is almost always empty. When eating Kibble, often with a splash of water (he doesn't like so much water that the Kibble is floating) he goes back and forth between the Kibble and the water. I was worried about the reason for so much water and I think part of it is due at the current time to him being (still) on a low dose steroid (I can look the name up)- This was specifically to help with his ears as his skin is doing rather well.
He likes variety, and likes new Kibble too. He was very fond of the Z/D prescription dog food for a couple of weeks. My deal with the vet was to feed him nothing else, and Wilson (dog) didn't like the canned Z/D.. and the price on canned Z/D which comes in little tuna fish size (what 4 oz?) cans for something over $2 as I recall.
I am thinking I might try White Fish or some other lower cost fish and potato and some vegetables. He loves his "mom's " home made vegetable soup. Only thing not vegetable is the chicken broth. I drain that off of a couple of table spoons and throw that on top of his Kibble and he licks the bowl clean, along with at least on pan of water.
The bottom line seems to be protein allergies are animal based, not vegetable based, but I do not know that to be a fact.
He will eat backed potato with nothing else on it, but usually will not eat green beans or carrots cooked or raw...still he eats them in the home made soup - but it has been simmered in chicken broth.
I like him to enjoy his meals and he has a good appetite, enough to make weight an issue.
He likes variety, and likes new Kibble too. He was very fond of the Z/D prescription dog food for a couple of weeks. My deal with the vet was to feed him nothing else, and Wilson (dog) didn't like the canned Z/D.. and the price on canned Z/D which comes in little tuna fish size (what 4 oz?) cans for something over $2 as I recall.
I am thinking I might try White Fish or some other lower cost fish and potato and some vegetables. He loves his "mom's " home made vegetable soup. Only thing not vegetable is the chicken broth. I drain that off of a couple of table spoons and throw that on top of his Kibble and he licks the bowl clean, along with at least on pan of water.
The bottom line seems to be protein allergies are animal based, not vegetable based, but I do not know that to be a fact.
He will eat backed potato with nothing else on it, but usually will not eat green beans or carrots cooked or raw...still he eats them in the home made soup - but it has been simmered in chicken broth.
I like him to enjoy his meals and he has a good appetite, enough to make weight an issue.
Hello Margot. Good to hear from you. The problems with dry dog food are many, and chronic dehydration and the potential for renal failure is just one. It's not consistent and there's very little research on it, but if you look hard enough you can find some. The difficulty is most canine research is financed by and sometimes undertaken by dog food manufacturers ... and few are brave enough to bite the hand that feeds them
If you haven't already read it, most of my comments are contained in this article: http://www.infobarrel.com/Why_Dry_Dog_Food_Is_Bad_For_Dogs
The evidence for chronic dehydration from kibble is sketchy, but there's enough for me to be very cautious about it. Not all dogs fed on kibble get kidney failure - and not all dogs fed on kibble become chronically dehydrated - but I think that's because some dogs ONLY have dry kibble as their regular diet and some dogs drink more than others naturally. Whether kibble tubas and a little water is enough, I can't say.
My other problem with kibble is it generally has about a third less nutritional value than good quality tinned foods, in addition to the fact that tinned food helps hydrate a dog during the process. Finally, I would question kibble as a dog food simply on the basis of how satisfying it is for a dog to eat the human equivalent of cheese crackers ... imagine eating nothing but cheese crackers for the rest of your life.
There are of course many reasons why a dog gets kidney failure, ranging from allergens, toxins, age, predisposition, other underlying illnesses and trauma. The amount and source of protein and type of protein are all indicators for worsening health, but only in a dog that is already in the early stages of kidney failure. This is because dogs with kidney disease cannot easily metabolize proteins. There is a lot of controversy about protein and how it impacts on dogs with or susceptible to kidney failure. Some believe it adds more stress to the kidneys (due to the nitrogen load produced) and is best avoided, while others believe protein of a high biological value actually helps the kidneys keep working.
I think if you are using kibble as a mixer, combining it with a little water and a good quality tinned food, you are probably making a good and balanced compromise.
Tony
If you haven't already read it, most of my comments are contained in this article: http://www.infobarrel.com/Why_Dry_Dog_Food_Is_Bad_For_Dogs
The evidence for chronic dehydration from kibble is sketchy, but there's enough for me to be very cautious about it. Not all dogs fed on kibble get kidney failure - and not all dogs fed on kibble become chronically dehydrated - but I think that's because some dogs ONLY have dry kibble as their regular diet and some dogs drink more than others naturally. Whether kibble tubas and a little water is enough, I can't say.
My other problem with kibble is it generally has about a third less nutritional value than good quality tinned foods, in addition to the fact that tinned food helps hydrate a dog during the process. Finally, I would question kibble as a dog food simply on the basis of how satisfying it is for a dog to eat the human equivalent of cheese crackers ... imagine eating nothing but cheese crackers for the rest of your life.
There are of course many reasons why a dog gets kidney failure, ranging from allergens, toxins, age, predisposition, other underlying illnesses and trauma. The amount and source of protein and type of protein are all indicators for worsening health, but only in a dog that is already in the early stages of kidney failure. This is because dogs with kidney disease cannot easily metabolize proteins. There is a lot of controversy about protein and how it impacts on dogs with or susceptible to kidney failure. Some believe it adds more stress to the kidneys (due to the nitrogen load produced) and is best avoided, while others believe protein of a high biological value actually helps the kidneys keep working.
I think if you are using kibble as a mixer, combining it with a little water and a good quality tinned food, you are probably making a good and balanced compromise.
Tony
Hi Tony
Have to admit have not read all your info on foods but I intend to.
You do not advocate feeding dry kibble. I thought the amount and/or source of protein was more a factor in kidney disease. If a dig is fed dry kibble tubas adequate fluid intake shouldn't that suffice?
I have and have not fed just kibble over the years. My usual routine is to feed kibble with a little canned food or whatever and a little water. I have had only one of my dogs suffer kidney failure and she was over 16.
Thoughts?
Have to admit have not read all your info on foods but I intend to.
You do not advocate feeding dry kibble. I thought the amount and/or source of protein was more a factor in kidney disease. If a dig is fed dry kibble tubas adequate fluid intake shouldn't that suffice?
I have and have not fed just kibble over the years. My usual routine is to feed kibble with a little canned food or whatever and a little water. I have had only one of my dogs suffer kidney failure and she was over 16.
Thoughts?
Hi Jerry. I can't help saying this ... kibble is bad, but dry kibble is worse. Sorry, but my investigation into kidney disease and kidney failure shows dry kibble as a major contributor over time, as dogs stay chronically dehydrated. Okay, lecture over, ha.
Yes, rice is a grain, so may not be ultimately suitable. But my point is try concentrating on one thing first, hence mentioning the most likely, which is chicken protein. Eliminate chicken as the allergen and you have a starting point, because you can then reintroduce it and then look at the mixer you are using. It's a slow and progressive process, but it does work eventually.
Of course, I would probably eliminate the kibble first, and swap for something natural - or good quality low protein tinned - but that's just me.
It's good he's not licking, as that can create bad infection and open wounds when the skin starts to get inflamed. So you are doing really well with him. Westies are great characters, but also prone to being hyper sensitive. Tony
Yes, rice is a grain, so may not be ultimately suitable. But my point is try concentrating on one thing first, hence mentioning the most likely, which is chicken protein. Eliminate chicken as the allergen and you have a starting point, because you can then reintroduce it and then look at the mixer you are using. It's a slow and progressive process, but it does work eventually.
Of course, I would probably eliminate the kibble first, and swap for something natural - or good quality low protein tinned - but that's just me.
It's good he's not licking, as that can create bad infection and open wounds when the skin starts to get inflamed. So you are doing really well with him. Westies are great characters, but also prone to being hyper sensitive. Tony
Thanks, yes I know the Z/D has chicken protein, hydrolyzed protein which my vet tells me "fools" the immune protein allergy. I too have read that a dog may be allergic to Protein A, but not B. But after being on B for a while the immune system decides to fight B, and it my be best to go back to A, or C. I think a major shift is important too. Domestic protein to wild protein.
Many Westie owner/breeders... say go Grain Free, for Kibble at lest. Isn't rice a grain? Sorry for stupid questions. I could look up on the web and probably have.
Our little boy (old man) is mostly trouble free as far as Yeast is concerned, his feet and legs look lovely. I have started adding some Salmon/Sweet Potato both Kibble and canned. And no change yet. This food is grain free and higly rated on "advisor".
The problem with identification is, for one: did the Z/D do it, contribute to it, or just ride along on the medications? He's now using only an ear medicine to fight yeast, Ot- somthing, very popular prescription. There seems to be a possibility he will need ongoing medicine..hope not.
At least he has proven his constant feet/leg licking and chewing was not "compulsive" he still licks the rug, coffee table steel legs, his crate gets an inside washdown every time I put him in it, but his feet and legs seem to be of no interest to him unless they have snow on them when he comes in from outside.
He is a good eater, to the extent of being 5% or so over his upper weight goal. But he surely enjoys a change, he is not one that needs a trasition period, he earts a new flavor immediately upon access. The same-o-same can sit for a hour or two before he eats..one advantage of Kibble left dry.
Many Westie owner/breeders... say go Grain Free, for Kibble at lest. Isn't rice a grain? Sorry for stupid questions. I could look up on the web and probably have.
Our little boy (old man) is mostly trouble free as far as Yeast is concerned, his feet and legs look lovely. I have started adding some Salmon/Sweet Potato both Kibble and canned. And no change yet. This food is grain free and higly rated on "advisor".
The problem with identification is, for one: did the Z/D do it, contribute to it, or just ride along on the medications? He's now using only an ear medicine to fight yeast, Ot- somthing, very popular prescription. There seems to be a possibility he will need ongoing medicine..hope not.
At least he has proven his constant feet/leg licking and chewing was not "compulsive" he still licks the rug, coffee table steel legs, his crate gets an inside washdown every time I put him in it, but his feet and legs seem to be of no interest to him unless they have snow on them when he comes in from outside.
He is a good eater, to the extent of being 5% or so over his upper weight goal. But he surely enjoys a change, he is not one that needs a trasition period, he earts a new flavor immediately upon access. The same-o-same can sit for a hour or two before he eats..one advantage of Kibble left dry.
Hi Jerry. The problem with allergies is unless you can identify the exact protein or other ingredient your dog is allergic to, it becomes a bit trial and error with foods. You probably know my opinion on kibble, so I won't repeat it
The other problem is dogs that are allergic to one thing can quite suddenly become allergic to other things too. It's like the body learns how to be allergic (surprisingly there is some truth in this, since the immune system is one of the strangest and most reactive of systems in the canine body).
I know that Hill's Ultra Z/D still has chicken as the protein (so it's not exactly protein free) and of course if your dog has an allergy to the chicken protein, then Hill's Ultra Z/D is actually causing a problem and is unsuitable. Have you tried feeding a simple but different diet, such as white rice and cooked white fish or green tripe, just to see if things improve? At least this kind of test would determine whether chicken is the protein allergy.
Tony
The other problem is dogs that are allergic to one thing can quite suddenly become allergic to other things too. It's like the body learns how to be allergic (surprisingly there is some truth in this, since the immune system is one of the strangest and most reactive of systems in the canine body).
I know that Hill's Ultra Z/D still has chicken as the protein (so it's not exactly protein free) and of course if your dog has an allergy to the chicken protein, then Hill's Ultra Z/D is actually causing a problem and is unsuitable. Have you tried feeding a simple but different diet, such as white rice and cooked white fish or green tripe, just to see if things improve? At least this kind of test would determine whether chicken is the protein allergy.
Tony
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