HR, please comment. PPC-Thyroid

[copyman]

after researching PPC i see that it is a Soy product. there has been some negative things said about Soy and its effect on the thyroid. since HCV can affect the thyroid would adding Soy further damage it? thanks

[Hepatitis Researcher]

PPC preparations from soy should normally be suficiently pure, so as to not carry any of the soy isoflavones with it. Thus there are no general " soy' considerations to be taken into account, with the exception of allergies, since trace amounts of the non PPC soy ingredients will always be present.

[Hepatitis Researcher]

All of these questions  of course open up a huge line of practical and theoretical considerations, way too complex to cover in these limited circumstances:

So the the "negative impact" of soy  - presumably isoflavones - on thyroid function is one of these topics ;

Soy foods are a traditional staple of Asian diets but because of their purported health benefits they have become popular in recent years among non-Asians, especially postmenopausal women. There are many bioactive soybean components that may contribute to the hypothesized health benefits of soy but

most attention has focused on the isoflavones, which have both hormonal and nonhormonal properties.

However, despite the possible benefits concerns have been expressed that soy may be contraindicated for some subsets of the population. One concern is that soy may adversely affect thyroid function and interfere with the absorption of synthetic thyroid hormone. Thus, the purpose of this review is to evaluate the relevant literature and provide the clinician guidance for advising their patients about the effects of soy on thyroid function. In total, 14 trials (thyroid function was not the primary health outcome in any trial) were identified in which the effects of soy foods or isoflavones on at least one measure of thyroid function was assessed in presumably healthy subjects; eight involved women only, four involved men, and two both men and women.

With only one exception, either no effects or only very modest changes were noted in these trials.

Thus, collectively the findings provide little evidence that in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function.

In contrast, some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients. However, hypothyroid adults need not avoid soy foods. In addition, there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate.

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Sorry, I should have placed the lower portion of the previous post  into quotes, since it is a quotation from a review, that I structured a little to make it more transparent.

[jmjm530]

I wonder if these Hawiian studies have been followed up on? I know they gave me slight pause when I started adding more soy to my diet.

"The study suggested a strong
link between (soy)
and faster aging

http://starbulletin.com/2000/04/03/news/story1.html

[copyman]

Thanks for the reply. i just received the hepatopro supplement and good to know it will not affect the thyroid. if someone is "hyper" not "hypo" could soy product possible help them?

also could you tell me what the ALA & TMG is in the list you provided in an earlier thread. thanks again

PPC/NAC/ALA/TMG/SAme/Silymarin/Catechin/Resvera/(Curcumin?)

[Hepatitis Researcher]

ALA = alpha lipoic acid= Thioctic acid = Lipoic acid= Liponsaeure. Do not use Dihydrolipoic acid, as it is very hard on the stomach, otherwise it would be better.

TMG= trimethylglycin= betaine=         DMG(dimethylglycin)+1methylgroup  
A methyldonor as required for many synthetic reactions in the liver.

If somebody is hyperthyreoid, he will need a good endocrinologist, not play around with self supplement treatment. Hyperthyreodism is typically an autoimmune disorder, with antithyroid autoantibodies reacting with the thyroid TSH receptor as if they were mimicking TSH, leading to uncontrolled, runaway activation....

[merryBe]

just a couple simple remark here, if PPC could help the liver I'd rather keep an eye on cholesterol and also adjust my throid dose as nessessary since I am hypo and since thyroid meds are and that's better than losing one's liver..

Hyper and hypo are both dangerous, even life threatening without treatment so the blood monitoring is important even though some docs understate the dangers to their patients, seriously understate.

HR's mention of iodine is noteworthy, particularly as it relates to hypo I have some small knowledge. One absolutely needs treatment and monitoring for these disease...and it all depends on why the thyroid is shutting down as to whether what's below will aide you;

because mine was diagnosed as not autoimmune but plainhypo to begin with,
my method was to use a daily capsule of kelp powder (not tablets not much in those) to keep iodine and trace mineral supply up. This method actually returned my thyroid to normal function according to testing for many years, and should not be underestimated for it's preventative benefits.
However, a deficiency is somewhat different than what can cause autoimmune....and of course now they say HCV can be a contributor to all autoimmune stuff......not all autoimmune is strictly definciency related though. Some is genetic, mine was radioactive as well as HCV, myriad causes exist for what triggers and sustains autoimmune response.

This therapy though, the kelp,  did help me, but only worked because part of my equation was having "Northwest hypothyroidism" (local diet in iodine poor soil produces the most cases nationwide due to lack of dietary iodine). However, many locals, and many diets in the states are especially low in iodine, hence hypothyroidism (low) is the most common of the thyroid ailments.
At one time, this was such a health problem here in Oregon that it was made the LAW they add iodine to all the salt,  as this was the easist way to cure all the people. (Everyone uses salt in foods and cooking).....but alas, the health nuts (who didn't do their homework) pissed and moaned and made them remove the iodine claiming the state was trying to poison them and remove their rights. (yeah, the right to be unnessessarily sick)....anyway.... Many people are low on this mineral, more now than ever. Personally, I think the addition of iodine vs. a whole other medication regime was wisdom.

Not sure for the non allergic that the small amount of soy would be problematic
would it HR?
Considering there's so many other sources of soy everyday many don't even know they get...
like in hydrolized protein, corn chips, you name it, unless one has a known soy allergy it hardly seems this small of an amount would present a problem.

[JRenquist]

Seems a bit of a toss-up.  My thyroid died after mistakenly being killed by interferon ( didn't work on the HCV, though).  I do eat a lot of soy, although I have heard that there could possibly be thyroid and other isues with it.  I eat it because (I like it and) I don't eat meat.  I don't NOT eat meat because of health reasons, but  I think that I've read that red meat can be pretty taxing on the liver.  So maybe it balances out?

[copyman]

if i had to pick one to keep it would be the liver. can live without the thyroid but not the liver :-)

[JRenquist]

Copyman- yeah that's true!

HR  I've ordered and gotten the alpha-lipoic acid, reservatol and TMG.  Waited till the weekend to start them. Looking up TMG, though, I see that it helps the body to produce SAM-E.  I already take a lot (800 mgs) of SAM-E a day for depression and I wonder if  the TMG will be safe.  Think I'll wait on that until I hear from someone who knows the answer.  Thanks so much for letting us know about these.  S.

[Hepatitis Researcher]

TMG has been used in very large doses in trials and found to be extremely safe. It is correct, that somebody, that already takes a large dose of SAMe, has less of a need for a methyldonor ( thats what TMG is, for numerous synthetic reactions in the liver).

I metioned TMg before SAme, because it is much cheaper than SAMe and wil produce SAMe naturally in your liver - but maybe not in the high dose range as you take your SAMe. Also needs some folic aid, B12 and B6 to achieve this.
There is no problem in adding the TMG to the SAMe, like in 2x500mg doses, it might still add to the liver protective effects.
It is very important to understand, that these are not stand alone measures. They focus on certain aspects ( like TMG for Methyl groups requiring reactions), but it is difficult to estimate the relative benefits that they will have.

Therefore always this is the hirarchy ( organized by priority) of the approach:

Eating patterns - liver metabolic stress reduction. Many small meals each with fiber embedded slow resorption carbs+30% lean protein+ only healthy fats/oils


Intrestinal health- eubiosis - Glutamine(integrity of intestinal epithelium),prebiotic ( Inulin, Lactulose), Probiotic ( Lactobacillus GG)

Supplements - :
Supporting specific aspects of liver metabolic burden - like TMg, SAMe

Thiol containing compounds: NAC (always with equal mg Vit C),, ALA, Taurine : Build fundamental hepatic/bodywide Glutathione reserve, protect from ox stress toxicities ( like Tylenol)
They also help to block the ox stress dependent stellate cell(fibrogenesis) activation pathways.
Many more functions of course not mentioned here.

PPC: membrane fluidity and functionality


Inhibiting the activation of stellate cells into fiber producing myofibroblasts:

Resveratrol: inhibits with high efficacy  Tumor Growth factor beta - the key player in the activation of fibrogenesis in the liver ( is key activator of improper "wound healing", scar formation (fostering the production of collagen fibvers from transformed stallate cells) inside a parenchymal organ- the liver)

Curcumin : Most effective in blocking the activation of NFKappaB, a nuclear activator of proinflammatory gene expression and also extremely involved in the formation of fiber forming cells in the liver from stellate cells)

Green tea extracts : Same as Curcumin, with less NFKB deactivating capacity, but likely other
complex antiinflammatory benefits.


Overall several key pathways leading to activation of fibrosis will be blocked/reduced in their activity, which will build to a synergistic effect over time. Each of these individual  measures has decent research backup, while all are considered GRAS, but no direct comparison has ever been made so it is hard to estimate the relative contribution.

[merryBe]

I'm glad you posted all this again, as I missed large chuck of info being only diagnosed in June and slow on the uptake, pretty sick.

could you post what you think are good doseage amounts for these again.
I think you did this once, but I lost track of that thread.

thanks HR

BTW, doesn't the green tea act as a stimulant having caffiene in it? Would that be one for those NOT currently on Riba so as to not overstimulate an already pretty agitated system?
I'm only asking because the Riba kept me up a lot at first, once for most of 3 days!
mary

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Yes the green tea should be used as decafffeinated green tea extract.

It is difficult to talk about fix dosages for these supplements, as some have substantial cost and I do not want to encourage anyone to engage in problematic expenses.

Some are cheap. like NAc ( 3x600mg+3x500mg VitC), TMG (3x500mg), Taurine (3x500mg) ALA (3x200mg)

Glutamine approx 1-2gm, Inulin 2-5gm are also cheap. Lactulose is OTC in Canada and rel cheap too.

Probiotics ( like Lactobazillus GG) are difficult to judge, have to be alive, in the fridge and individually packed, hard to test for quality.

But the Polyphenols and like compounds : they are not alike! they have very very individual profiles.
Some are somewhat toxic, like Apigenin and Naringenin. They should not be considered in a class manner, but for their individual potency, research experience behind each of them, known pharmakokinetics/absorption/excretion/toxicity studies.
On the other hand some of those ( resveratrol, curcumin, less so green tea) hold the strongest promise to deliver as antifibrotic blockers of the stellate activation pathway.
Some, like Resveratrol, have worldwide extensive highest quality research behind them.
Some have lifespan studies in animals behind them - those are the most convincing, since hidden toxicities would surface in a reduction of mean lifespan vs controls. Resveratrol prolongs lifespan, of course not tested for that aspect in humans, but has excellent liver protective effects in now famous animal studies. I am still trying to find a quality source for that. Resveratrol should be 98% pure.The pure form is highest priced, so most retailers use the cheaper versions of only 20 or 40% purity from polygonium cuspidatum - not a great idea for long term use ( and the relevant %facts are typically well concealed.)

All supplements and eubiotic measures must always be discussed with your personal hepatologist.If they are not aware of some of these, they might find the time to investigate. This is sometimes hard, since much of this literature has only been presented as posters and abstracts in meetings. But a good hepatologist will attend all the relevant meetings and will study all the many abstracts relevant to fibrosis/organize them for later use  and work his way through the posters.

[JRenquist]

Thanks a lot.  Will be getting some circumon and glutamine, and then will have the full "arsenal'.  Thanks again.  I appreciate you taking the time to explain all of this.  S.

[merryBe]

thanks HR for the above synopisis again, I have it on file now.

for all. As to the thoughts on soy and thyroid absorption, the synthetic has to be taken on a empty stomach for full absorption (I take mine a 5 am). All other meds and especially things with Calcium or fat are known to interfere with thyroid med absorption. Therefore it's only logical soy product would as well.

again, to all
makes more sense to treat the liver and monitor/adjust thyroid than not.
Kinda like, blood pressure meds, the may cause some other problems, like potassium loss which is correctable, but the alternative of not taking those meds is stroke and heart attack.
The trade offs need to be weighed carefully before ruling things in or out.

[gauf]

Found a good source for Resveratrol (I think).

http://megaresveratrol.com/

[Hepatitis Researcher]

That looks indeed as good as it can get, you are right.

[scratchinghead]

wow! what a great thread. glad someone bumped it up to the top where it could be seen.
What if one is not on treatment, and has no liver damage (yet), but is HCV? Would it be advisable to pursue a similar regime? What should be ommited from list if anything? I understand this is all conjecture and hold no one repsonsible for the 10 pounds of supplements I might have to gag on.

Signed,
A Humble Fan

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Chances are that it might keep your liver on a much lower damage level and fairly free of fibrosis at least. Once the fibroscans will be everywhere, you can then check once a year if this is truly the case. Meanwhile ALT levels should also reflect the positive influence of such a multiregimen. Never forget that the metabolic care and intestinal care come before any supplement. List is the same.

[scratchinghead]

good good good! Thank you!

You really sold me in 2 places over the last month of my frequenting this list:
on Thanksgiving, when you said, "it's best to eat your turkey with just a salad"

and way above where you said:
"Eating patterns - liver metabolic stress reduction. Many small meals each with fiber embedded slow resorption carbs+30% lean protein+ only healthy fats/oils"

What is so important about this is that we can do it now, today.
Once again, thank you.

[scratchinghead]

I'm pretty sure that " fiber embedded slow resorption carbs" means veggies and grains, right?

[Hepatitis Researcher]

Veggies and salads are the "macrofibers+ microfibers ". They slow everything down, even the basic enzymatic digestion process : macromolecules in food to absorbable monomers of sugar, amino acids and fatty acids. . . Grains - simultaneously with the above therefore, never as a "bolus' as such by themselves ,   grains  should ideally be mainly oatmeal, little to no wheat and always in moderation. Veggies and salads themselves have slow carbs right in  them. What matters is the slow offering of the enterically absorbed "nutrients" to the liver, that has to work them up as they come and therefore can be easily overwhelmed=damaged. if the offerings exceed the available capacity for "nonstressful processing". It is mainly a biochemical processing plant and it can only do so much per minute....Fruits/berries  should also be embedded if possible, since they often . contain relative high available monosugar amounts..It is obvious that any true "sugar" containing drinks or even fruit juices are problematic for all these reasons and "deserts" are not even discussed.....

[merryBe]

oatmeal is all I eat morning and noon!! Glas to hear thats OK.

speaking of berries, don't they have very highly bioavailable iron?
Ala, sort of red meat style?
I wish there was a list somewhere of how much is absorbed from each source.
I've got lots of list of what is high in iron, but none on how much can be absorbed from these high sources, which varies according to fiber content and such, right?

anyway, in my "juicing days" berry juice and beet juice were considere very high sources,
so shouldn't they be avoided?  And raisins//prunes/tomatoes, how bout them???
Aren't we supposed to avoid excess iron? I've already cut red meat out completely.

[scratchinghead]

I think when he says "Fruits/berries should also be embedded if possible" he means they are full of sugar and should be mixed in with veggies and salads in smaller amounts. Makes sense to me.