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Hemoglobin/Vitamin C/Open thread
I know I have been asking a lot of questions and do not want to be a thread hog. Buuuuuut I go to see my Hep doctor this Thursday for the first time. I believe I am ready thanks to you guys. The only have a couple more questions. I am a little light on my hemoglobin knowledge. I understand what it is and what it does, but what affects it, the Ribivirin? What is the corrective therapy? Also what are within range levels and experiences with tx difficulties with surrounding it? Secondly, Vitamin C. There doesn
Hi all..stopped by to catch up and was quite pleased to see a lot of familiar handles still participating.
For the most part our doctors follow the same protocol for monitoring blood counts at the initiation and duration of treatment. At the onset our docs have us take frequent blood tests in order to catch those individuals who have a rapid, and potentially lifethreatenin, drop in Hb, HCT, platelets, ect. After a few weeks go by the blood testing is less frequent and for a very good reason. The largest majority of patients on INF/riba treatment have their blood levels stabilize by weeks 6-8. Califia's experience is quite typical of the "average" HCV patient on treatment. My own experience is almost exactly the same; an initial rapid drop (10.6) in hemoglobin stabilizing at week 8 at a level of 11.5. These counts remained at this level for the entire 100 weeks I was on treatment.
I think it might be a bit premature to attribute stabilised blood counts on any herbal protocol. In reading Misha Cohen's website and the literature the strongest statement that is made in relation to improved or stabilising blood counts is the following:
"There is very good success with alleviating side effects and apparently helping to improve bone marrow suppression related to both Pegasys and Peg-Intron pegylated interferon therapies"
The use of the wording "Apparently helping" is not very strong evidence or data in support of a increase in the number of patients who have stabilised blood counts using a herbal protocol over those who do nothing. Admittedly I have not read the single article that she helped write/research on herbal treatment of mild to moderate anemia...but I will this week! What concerns me is that there is no published data on treatment of anemia using this or simiar protocol and that one article only mentions mild to moderate anemia. I hope no one gets their hopes up too high about using this protocol to treat their anemia.....the evidence is a bit thin.
I am also concerned that with claims of using these herbals for a period of decade(s) has resulted in no publications of the efficacy of this type of treatment. There are certainly some components of herbal treatments that help a great many people stablise LFT's but so far in my research I have found little to support the notion of increased blood counts.....if anyone has any references they feel I should look at please post the citations.
regards,
BobK
For the most part our doctors follow the same protocol for monitoring blood counts at the initiation and duration of treatment. At the onset our docs have us take frequent blood tests in order to catch those individuals who have a rapid, and potentially lifethreatenin, drop in Hb, HCT, platelets, ect. After a few weeks go by the blood testing is less frequent and for a very good reason. The largest majority of patients on INF/riba treatment have their blood levels stabilize by weeks 6-8. Califia's experience is quite typical of the "average" HCV patient on treatment. My own experience is almost exactly the same; an initial rapid drop (10.6) in hemoglobin stabilizing at week 8 at a level of 11.5. These counts remained at this level for the entire 100 weeks I was on treatment.
I think it might be a bit premature to attribute stabilised blood counts on any herbal protocol. In reading Misha Cohen's website and the literature the strongest statement that is made in relation to improved or stabilising blood counts is the following:
"There is very good success with alleviating side effects and apparently helping to improve bone marrow suppression related to both Pegasys and Peg-Intron pegylated interferon therapies"
The use of the wording "Apparently helping" is not very strong evidence or data in support of a increase in the number of patients who have stabilised blood counts using a herbal protocol over those who do nothing. Admittedly I have not read the single article that she helped write/research on herbal treatment of mild to moderate anemia...but I will this week! What concerns me is that there is no published data on treatment of anemia using this or simiar protocol and that one article only mentions mild to moderate anemia. I hope no one gets their hopes up too high about using this protocol to treat their anemia.....the evidence is a bit thin.
I am also concerned that with claims of using these herbals for a period of decade(s) has resulted in no publications of the efficacy of this type of treatment. There are certainly some components of herbal treatments that help a great many people stablise LFT's but so far in my research I have found little to support the notion of increased blood counts.....if anyone has any references they feel I should look at please post the citations.
regards,
BobK
Hey there, Bob. How are your tomatoes coming? The questions you raise are more than valid and it is going to take time and much concerted effort to assemble and scrutinize the requisite data, however anecdotal. Interferon has been in use since the 1950s, and look how long it's taken to get where we are! A lot of soldiers have dropped by the wayside during this last half century of clinical research. I promise you & everyone that I will be on the job and will report in when I can.
As for safety, I am afraid of the lead and arsenic levels found in aryuvedic and Chinese herbal compounds and ONLY use herbal matter grown organically in the U.S. As for the biochemical effects of the plants and the traditional formulas which combine them, the Chinese have an extremely well documented five thousand year old pharmacopeia to draw from. The real challenge is--and forgive me, folks, if this is getting a bit yawningly academic--the challenge is to _translate_ their classification system into ours, and vice-versa. Check out Ted Kapchuk....
For me, experientially, the difference between traditional Chinese medicine and Westen medicine has been like solar versus nuclear energy. But I've just chosen to nuke again, so I guess you could say that my approach is eclectic and self-experimental.
Do you know the German Kommission Herbal PDR, the NIH databases, and so on? I don't want to go on because I'm afraid this is boring everyone to tears. Contact me offlist or via Jovo if you like.
But more importantly, how are you feeling post tx? Have a GOOD day, everyone.
As for safety, I am afraid of the lead and arsenic levels found in aryuvedic and Chinese herbal compounds and ONLY use herbal matter grown organically in the U.S. As for the biochemical effects of the plants and the traditional formulas which combine them, the Chinese have an extremely well documented five thousand year old pharmacopeia to draw from. The real challenge is--and forgive me, folks, if this is getting a bit yawningly academic--the challenge is to _translate_ their classification system into ours, and vice-versa. Check out Ted Kapchuk....
For me, experientially, the difference between traditional Chinese medicine and Westen medicine has been like solar versus nuclear energy. But I've just chosen to nuke again, so I guess you could say that my approach is eclectic and self-experimental.
Do you know the German Kommission Herbal PDR, the NIH databases, and so on? I don't want to go on because I'm afraid this is boring everyone to tears. Contact me offlist or via Jovo if you like.
But more importantly, how are you feeling post tx? Have a GOOD day, everyone.
Hi Califia,
Tomatoes, tomatillos, and peppers (to mention a few) are coming in like gangbusters...friends, chickens, turkeys, and pigs all enjoying the fresh produce although many folks are afraid of my approaching them fearing an offer of squash ;-)
We have been canning lots of chipotle salsa with jalapenos and habeneros smoked in our smoker...yummy stuff!! Also about to start a time consuming experiment that will extend for 50 days straight and in preparation I had to take 7 days off to go salmon fishing and then camping at our favorite camping spot on Trinity Lake. I think I am ready ...but maybe a couple of more days fishing would make it more of a sure thing !!??
First Califia don't think you are boring anyone with the technical...you would be suprised at the number who are interested. I think it goes a bit beyond how to translate the TCM criteria into western terminology. I believe it needs to extend to how does (did) the patient fare in the long run. Data is quite sparse and the two references cited by Misha Cohen from the chinese literature are articles that are not only difficult to access ( and translate) but they appear to be quite short (one page and two pages respectively). In my experience it is difficult to evaluate the research when limited details are presented much as a complete picture is not obtained by reading abstracts only.
I agree with you on the lead content of imported herbal products...a very real and important concern for all. There are numerous published incidences of the problems associated with lead contamination from herbal products.
Once I stopped treatment I felt a bit better right away and then seemed to hit a plateau. At this point improvement seemed slow but steady and after 6 months I felt really good but still not as well as I had hoped. By the time one year went by I felt better then I have in many many years and still do. One of the things that forced my hand in getting diagnosed and treated was a increasing problem with mental processing of all the information I had to read and learn in my pharmacology and toxicology course work. I am happy to say that now, 18 months post treatment, that problem is a thing of the past and has been for sometime now. To all who are on treatment and those who have just stopped do not despair if things seem to progress slowly in your recovery. My doctor, and others who I have talked too, indicate that a one year time period for complete recovery is quite common. I have no lingering problems that I can complain of but do have some problems that I would say are more age related than anything else....the usual eyesight getting a bit worse and some bouts with aches and pains....but I am near 50 so I can't really complain.
Regards,
BobK
ps: I did look the Mihsa Cohen article up that was published in Integrative Medicine and it did not provide any data on anemia response to the herbal treatment although there was a brief mention that anemia does occur.... ;-(
Tomatoes, tomatillos, and peppers (to mention a few) are coming in like gangbusters...friends, chickens, turkeys, and pigs all enjoying the fresh produce although many folks are afraid of my approaching them fearing an offer of squash ;-)
We have been canning lots of chipotle salsa with jalapenos and habeneros smoked in our smoker...yummy stuff!! Also about to start a time consuming experiment that will extend for 50 days straight and in preparation I had to take 7 days off to go salmon fishing and then camping at our favorite camping spot on Trinity Lake. I think I am ready ...but maybe a couple of more days fishing would make it more of a sure thing !!??
First Califia don't think you are boring anyone with the technical...you would be suprised at the number who are interested. I think it goes a bit beyond how to translate the TCM criteria into western terminology. I believe it needs to extend to how does (did) the patient fare in the long run. Data is quite sparse and the two references cited by Misha Cohen from the chinese literature are articles that are not only difficult to access ( and translate) but they appear to be quite short (one page and two pages respectively). In my experience it is difficult to evaluate the research when limited details are presented much as a complete picture is not obtained by reading abstracts only.
I agree with you on the lead content of imported herbal products...a very real and important concern for all. There are numerous published incidences of the problems associated with lead contamination from herbal products.
Once I stopped treatment I felt a bit better right away and then seemed to hit a plateau. At this point improvement seemed slow but steady and after 6 months I felt really good but still not as well as I had hoped. By the time one year went by I felt better then I have in many many years and still do. One of the things that forced my hand in getting diagnosed and treated was a increasing problem with mental processing of all the information I had to read and learn in my pharmacology and toxicology course work. I am happy to say that now, 18 months post treatment, that problem is a thing of the past and has been for sometime now. To all who are on treatment and those who have just stopped do not despair if things seem to progress slowly in your recovery. My doctor, and others who I have talked too, indicate that a one year time period for complete recovery is quite common. I have no lingering problems that I can complain of but do have some problems that I would say are more age related than anything else....the usual eyesight getting a bit worse and some bouts with aches and pains....but I am near 50 so I can't really complain.
Regards,
BobK
ps: I did look the Mihsa Cohen article up that was published in Integrative Medicine and it did not provide any data on anemia response to the herbal treatment although there was a brief mention that anemia does occur.... ;-(
Well, darlin', your brain is clearly working well and I'm really delighted to hear that you and your professional life and your garden are thriving. I look forward to the day when I can tramp around the Trinities again, but like Befuddled said, right now it's the mukluks for me.
I'm going to fish around for data. For now, all I can tell you is that a few dozen people that I know of are either doing or have completed the MC protocol/combo combination, so what's going on right now is a quiet gathering of data. An informal pre-pilot study, you could say. Stuart Cooper, M.D. of U.C. Med, someone at Stanford and Bob Gish, MD of Pacific Medical Center are all quietly observing. I think "preliminary" is the key word here. As for my own experience, what I really need to do is clone myself so I can do tx with and without herbal supplementation. Anybody have any clues as to how to pull this off?
I'm going to fish around for data. For now, all I can tell you is that a few dozen people that I know of are either doing or have completed the MC protocol/combo combination, so what's going on right now is a quiet gathering of data. An informal pre-pilot study, you could say. Stuart Cooper, M.D. of U.C. Med, someone at Stanford and Bob Gish, MD of Pacific Medical Center are all quietly observing. I think "preliminary" is the key word here. As for my own experience, what I really need to do is clone myself so I can do tx with and without herbal supplementation. Anybody have any clues as to how to pull this off?
If you come up with any data, formal or informal, if you would post it somewhere for us to view or to me via personal e-mail it would be much appreciated. The lack of available data is quite frustrating. My doc is pretty much in the same postion as the others you mentioned...watchful waiting to see if there is some meaningful trend that merits further research in the herbal realm.
I have been beside myself a time or two but I don't think that qualifies as a cloning experience.
take care,
BobK
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