Questions for Available Supplementers

[zellyf]

I have been poring over HR's previous posts regarding supplements.  I read with interest his posts on PPC but it was unclear to me if this would be helpful for someone with chronic Hep B who is not in treatment (yet).  I don't really expect anyone to have researched that but perhaps in your research you came upon something.  I notice that one study HR cites showed no biochemical response to interferon treatment w/PPC for Hep B patients.  But, would it still have the same antifibrotic ability, do you think?

I looked at Maximum Milk Thistle online.  Is this something supplementers would recommend or is my nearby national chain whole food grocery store variety just as good?  

Thank you for any help.

[orleans]

the ground flax really is'nt bad, nutty,

[gauf]

Yah, I know dude, but I like to stay busy.

[CockSparrow]

>Re: PPC and PC competing Is this to toxic effect?
Nah just means you wont get the benefit of the polyunsaturated bit. Thats what the extra P means. PC and PPC are kinda the same thing only different.

Gauf
Grind up raw flax seed and take with yogurt. No offence but i would rather just take another ALA pill. -lol.
CS

[zellyf]

Re: PPC and PC competing.  Is this to toxic effect? I think I may have been taking a GT extract with PC and I'm on my third day of PPC.  I won't be taking that GT anymore but hopefully I just negated the effect of both rather than created some hepa-toxic brew.

Science is hard.

[zellyf]

Thanks!

No MMT and yes, flax seed.  

I buy mine pre-ground but refrigerated.  I know this affects the quality somewhat but I really am just that lazy.

gauf, if its not too pesky, I notice you are taking the super curcumin w/biopreine rather than the super biocurcumin that was discussed. Any reason in particular?

[gauf]

2 teaspoons od raw flax seed should cover the ALA requirements. I grind mine up and mix with yogurt.
-------------------------------
Mike, The tapering at EOT is not something I have done in the past. I do know that the next tox has got to be different in some way as the treatment as it stands, does not quite seem to kill the little buggers off. As I stopped the meds cold turkey in the past, it seemed reasonable to me to try and taper next time. Give my immune system a little help coming back on line.  The idea of taking lactoferrin was also something I discussed with HR. (I trust HR fully, as do most of us who have been on the forum a while)  It couldn't hurt, and may help. My doc has agreed with my choices for the most part thus far, but when it comes to toxing, the ultimate decisions (after careful analysis and for better or worse) is mine, and mine alone.  

[D977]

Well i am a non responder to tx and for many years it has kept my VL down 30% since then and to me is buying me time. Look i just want to get along.
Ok i am done talking about it as well. Let the chips fall where they may
God Bless to you and all
Dan

[CockSparrow]

You still dont get it do you. PC and PPC shouldnt be taken together.
Idb1016 and MMT aint the same thing just the same formula.

And no not under any circumstances would I ever take MMT or ultra thistle.
You can go on all you like about being 10 times more absorbant.

I have NOT taken any form of Milk Thistle for 10 years well 25 years sinse I picked up a hitchhicker or a trillion. Hasnt done me any harm. Not 1 bit.

So what has MMT actually done for you? Actually dont answer that i am sick of this.
I cant believe I got caught up in this. I dont even like Milk Thistle.
CS

[D977]

You can say what you want , twist it anyway you like. There are more clinical studies backed up by Dr Michael Murray, health expert for the encyclopedia of natural Medicine.
The only clinically tested brand of milk thistle tested in the USA and is in the Handbook of clinicaly tested Herbal Remedies which is backed up by Many PhDs , MDs backed up by VICKI SHAW a hepatitis survivor Founder of  Hepatitis-Central.Com ,Kevin Krueger
Hep Survivor Founder of the National Hepatitis C Coalition, Dr. Palmers Guide to Hepatitis Liver Disease, Health World Magazine Dr. Michael Murray,Dr. Lisa Alschuler International Journal of Integrative Medicine Milk Thistle Goals and Objectives, Also listed in the National Library of Medicine numerous studies done in Italy and Europe and a host of others who clinically back this up and what i am saying plus my own testimony that it lowered my VL by 30% and has stayed there all these years,TEN, with no harm or sides of any kind. I did not get those results with regular milk thistle but anything you say to the contrary that there are no studies. You are the one misleading here my good friend.
In fact Legalon was the only one tested against MMT and MMT was scietifically proven to be 8-10 more absorbed and in overall protection of the liver.I can understand why now you do not like what i am saying. I do nothing but study every single thing i put into my body with great vigour. All the thousands of people including many close to me have used and are using this product for many many years are all wrong because you say so. I never said you should use it in the first place. I said personally i can attest to it. I am pretty much done with this  for i know what you are trying to do. Drag me into your little Negative trips. I am about getting well and i do my research. Good day to you mate
Be well
Dan

[CockSparrow]

Ok so you aint selling it. But you still dont seem to realise that even though it is 10 times more absorbed, how do you know this it wasnt MMT that was trialed it was idb1016.
2nd you shouldnt take it when you are taking PPC.

As for legalon you id10t. I've said why I take it. Apparantly you dont place a lot of faith in studies. Just marketing campaigns.
CS

[D977]

Know i do not work for them.
I think it is presumptious for you to even say that.
Like i could say do you work for Legalon since  it is made in Germany and distributed in
Austraila Where you are from.? I have been using the product for over ten years and it works.
Regualr milk thistle standardized can be found anyhwre in the world many many places here in the USA and I have used that also. This is diff. and is better than regular milk thistle. Ten times more absorbed. That is why i am still going strong staving off this disease Only one place makes it, Natrual Wellness. Its that simple.
D

[CockSparrow]

I know how IdB1016 works.
I am taking PPC why would I want to mix it with PC
Do you work for Natural Wellness?
CS

[mike716]

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/

[CockSparrow]

Only recently came accros LPI. Didnt see the choline page though.
Interesting wasnt it. The Omega 3&6 one I am going to have to read more closely.
Thanks for posting them

Oh yeh thanks for liking what i said on MMT.
CS

[D977]

Yeah whatever
Hey it works and it is absorbed ten times more than regular milk thistle with the Phytosome process.I just know it works for me is all and has for a decade and counting.
That is proof enough for me. My humble op.
D

[CockSparrow]

Whatever. They still aint their studies they are quoting.
CS

[D977]

Natural Wellnes raise too many red flags for my liking. Could be wrong though.
CS
Personally for me ohh ten years or so it has worked wonders for me and many many others, Personally i mean. It is really up to the individual because we are all diff.
Some are allergic to some things and others to other things. Some cannot do SOC
or tollerate it does not mean i will through a blanket over the whole thing and dismiss it for others.As i hope we are all entitled to our own trials and tribulations.
D

[mike716]

First, a question for gauf: How did you get control of your antiviral therapy, like tapering off? Did your doc decide to let you have your way because you've been through it all a bunch of times, or do you just have a friendly doctor?

Does anyone remember reading somewhere about one of the supplements increasing the Kupffer cells in the liver? I think I saw that somewhere but can't remember where, and I've been reading some articles that say that the Kupffer cells in the liver are baaaad.

For anyone interested in fish oil and its Omega-3,-6 fatty acids, here's a link I found to a NATO Advanced Research Workshop review of them in the Journal of Nutrition:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/119/4/521?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=EPA+DHA+liver&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

I really liked CockSparrow's analysis of MMT vs. IdB1016 and PC vs. PPC. Good stuff, CockSparrow. I agree with your reasoning on this 100%. As a matter of fact, it got me going so much that I did some hunting around and came up with this long, detailed review of choline from the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, which seems to be a great source of info on nutrients:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/othernuts/choline/

Here's a journal article I found on glycirrhizin (licorice root extract):
Arase Y, Ikeda K, Murashima N, Chayama K, Tsubota A, Koida I, et al: The long-term efficacy of glycyrrhizin in chronic hepatitis C patients. Cancer 1997;79:1494-1500

And some stuff on blood iron levels which looks pretty important:

http://lefcms.lef.org/protocols/infections/hepatitis_c_01.htm
"Despite substantial scientific evidence, however, few physicians implement iron-depletion therapy before beginning antiviral therapy. This partially accounts for the high failure rate of conventional drugs in eradicating the virus (Boucher E et al 1997; Martin-Vivaldi R et al 1997; Tsai NC et al 1997)."

Mike

[susan400]

I am very cautious when it comes to any of the supplements, so following HR's plan to the nth degree won't work for me.  Milk Thistle makes me have an asthma flare, so it's not something that I'm going to do.  I am doing the fish oil because it was recommended by the PA at my Hepatologist's office.  I am trying to watch my sugar because the internal medicine doctor wanted me to be careful about that, although I haven't been diagnosed as pre-diabetic, or diabetic.  I am watching my fats/startches.  I will NOT give up my dairy and I don't care for soy milk at all.  I do use Lactaid Lactose free, fat-free milk and that works for me.  Anyway, we all do what works for us, in my opinion.

Susan

[CockSparrow]

Zelly
Personnaly i wouldnt go near Maximum Milk Thistle or ultra thistle. The natural wellness site has links to a heap of studies. How many of them used MMT. answer none i could see. They all quote Idb1016. This is the same formula as used by MMT but not necessarily MMT. Apart from that MMT contains PC which will compete with PPC.
I use legalon but only because its been studied. Taken with PPC it should produce similar results as idb1016.
I am aware of someone who had their treat delayed because their enzymes went through the roof and the Hospital though they went on an alochol bender. She hadnt. Was taking MMT though. Alcohol is used in the extraction process.
Natural Wellnes raise too many red flags for my liking. Could be wrong though.
CS

[zellyf]

Thanks again.  The link is great.

ALA - I'm eating 2 tbspns of ground flax seed/day.  Am I covered?  I know it is in flax seed oil.

[gauf]

I see what you mean, I would think it good to take (PPC) as fibrosis is fibrosis.

Milk thistle and curcumin as well as green tea and resveratrol are all excellent antiinflammatories and all work a little differently. I take all. I am also now taking some added calcium and whey protein.

Here is a good link that CockSparrow provided:  http://www.smile.org.au/OtherMedicalTherapies/HepatitisC.htm

[zellyf]

Thanks, gauf.  I did see that conclusion but HR prefaced the study with this:

"The following paper is not referring to PPCs antifibrotic capacities, but to its enhancing features to reach SVR on IFN therapy in HCV."

As I am not looking to enhance therapy and just to slow fibrosis I thought it might still work as an effective antifibrotic.

I will look into the others you mention.

I am currently taking curcumin and milk thistle.  What about resveratrol?  Helpful for me, do you think?  Thanks again.

[gauf]

From the study conclusions:

"PPC may be recommended in patients with
chronic hepatitis C in combination with interferon and after termination of
interferon in order to reduce the high relapse rate.

PPC may NOT be recommended
for patients with chronic hepatitis B. In contrast to IFN and other antiviral
agents PPC does not carry major risks and is tolerated very well."

You can and should however take NAC/VitC, TMG, Sam E, ALA.