antifibrotic protocol

[viaduk]

I have been taking the antifibrotic protocol used by several members here for about 3 months now, and have found that my LFTs have gone up on two consecutive blood workups (at about 4 weeks and 10 weeks).  Whereas my ALT, AST have been generally around 60 before starting this,  they are now both over 100, and the GGTP that usually hovers around 70 is at 299.    

On the other hand, a recent MRI indicates that  "there has been an interval resolution of the previously noted non-occlusive distal mesenteric vein and main portal vein thrombosis."  This thrombus was first identified 8 months ago and spanned a length of 3.5 cm.  

Anyone else monitoring their bloodwork and/or other studies while doing these supplements?   This good news/bad news has me stumped as to how to proceed with this.  

[CockSparrow]

viaduk - I thought that the formula in  Maximum Milk Thistle was prettty well studied.  It is also known as Silipide/Siliphos, or silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex silipide (Laboratory code Idb 1016).  Anyway, I don't think that this is the culprit, because I have been taking this formula for years with no problem.  

Yes the formula is weel studied. But were the trial using MMT. No they werent.
Both UltraThistle and MMT claim the same patent for this, so it is probably the same product. The both have the natural Wellness logo in the top right corner so thats a bit of a give away.

Now what did HR say about Phosphatidilcholine and PPC.
I thought it was they would compete. Continue takeing both if you like.
Thats what the Phos part of SiliPhos is btw.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that alcohol is used in the extraction process to get silymarin from Milk Thistle. How do you know it isnt a bad batch.

You can lead a horse to water.
CS

[Forseegood]

and I agree with you there...I just think different strokes, other people do things differently then I do...with me, I want to know if that supplement is agreeing with me or not, that's why I introduce small amounts, one at a time, etc...then take labs...that's one of the only ways I can get a good read on what's going on, with these things you have to be patient...

Also, I factor in if anything else has changed too (anti-biotics, other drugs if any)....I've seen too many people on here take megadoses of stuff, and too many things, have their labs go up, and go off them....when maybe they could of been helped had they done it differently, just my take...I just think doing too many things is overkill, even if everyone of the things your taking might be good...your organs have to filter all that...just my take and I've been taking these things for years....just ready to bring in the big guns now...lol...

[viaduk]

A thought occured to me ( that's rare these days)

Wouldn't stopping all supplements 10 days before bloodwork skew results the other way?  What I mean is that it would not show the effects of the supplements while you are actually taking them.

[viaduk]

I do think that I may have over-taxed the system by introducing  all the additional supplements at one time.  I should have known better, because, like 4C,  I am generally pretty sensitive to meds. But I was impatient to get started on this protocol. The rationale behind the antifibrotic approach, and the and impressive support for these supplements, convinced me that this was the way to go for now.  I just have to remember to start slowly and be patient.... Thanks for the reminder!

CS:... I thought that the formula in  Maximum Milk Thistle was prettty well studied.  It is also known as Silipide/Siliphos, or silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex silipide (Laboratory code Idb 1016).  Anyway, I don't think that this is the culprit, because I have been taking this formula for years with no problem.  The resveratol is a possibility, though.  Thanks for the input.

Orleans:... It's interesting that you have similar results.  I hope that your migraine eased up.  I know how debilitating  those can be.

[Forseegood]

i kinda agree with you....

[copyman]

livers as sensitive as people have with HCV can have an adverse affect when hit with all these sups at once.  this is why i asked HR what 2 or 3 would benefit the most. I did not want to take that many sups at one time. i feel taking that many things at once can not be good. i will try and find the thread and see which ones he said were the most beneficial to take if you were to only take a few. i stop all sups about 10 days before i have bloodwork done so not to skew results.

[orleans]

I started with 1/2 the recommended doses on everything. I suspect the PPC for reasons I'll express later. Can't do this tonite as I am in a pitch battle w/ Mr. Migraine right now. later, jerry

[CockSparrow]

Once again look at the MT first then the Resvertrol both use alcohol in the extraction process. Pick brands that make pharmceutical grade product.
Legalon is. Its the one used in many studies. Dont know about Ultra thistle.
CS

[Forseegood]

some good advice...with me, I always titer up with supps...and I take one at a time, in the lowest dosage possible, and maybe only one two things at a time, and take labs...that way I'm keeping a beat on everything I take, and I'll see which are the offenders, if any....because I am so susceptible to drugs or anything, I always take the lowest dosages, not everyone of us can take high dosages...sometimes I think some people just start off taking way too much of a thing and shock their systems, especially all at once! you have to gauge things properly, to my way of thinking...and yes, their are certain brands that have overkill...it's all a delicate process...I'd stop and see what's going on and start out slowly, the way I usually do it, but that's me...my alts are always in the 20s, low 30s...

[orleans]

I've run into the same problem. My ast/alt both increased after starting the supps. I stopped all but have continued the pro/prebiotics. I have also continued the MT as I have been taking it from the start. "ultrathistle" is the brand I use. My alt was also in the 60s and was 125 after 30 days on the regemin. I will retest at the end of March and was planning to post in detail then. jerry

[CockSparrow]

I am taking Bioforte and HepatoPro so it better not be that.

viaduk - I am taking Maximum Milk Thistle
------------------------------------------------------------
Somehow i knew you were going to say that. There is a memeber on another forum who had her treatment delayed by several weeks. Why because the hospital thought she had been on an alcohol bender. Guess which Milk Thistle she was taking. You got it Maximum Milk Thistle, which is what they put it down to.

Stop the Maximum Milk Thistle and your ALTs and GGT will drop.
Change to Legalon
CS

[viaduk]

Thanks for the replies.

CS:  I am taking Maximum Milk Thistle, LEF super bio circumin, hepatopro and the Bioforte 500. Full-Spectrum 250mg Trans-Resveratrol Compound. I also take Vitacost's SAMe and TMg.   I thought that all of these were good products. And I don't drink any alcohol.   I will try eliminating some of these and see how things go.  Unfortunately, I spent a small fortune to stock up on the supplements.

Bobby:  If only my ability to beat the odds worked when I played the lottery :)   When I was clear at 8 weeks post tx, my hepatologist told me I had a  90% chance of staying virus free forever.  The third month blood draw showed that I relapsed.

Anyway, back to the drawing board....   Thanks, again

[Bobby1952]

  I have been taking the antifibrotics for about 45 days now and I had blood work done at around 28 days after I started. Even though my virus came back at a low amount my ALT/AST are still normal. So it is hard to say. I would stop everything and retest and then if it goes down I would slowly add things back and retest each time.
   There is always the possibility that your Liver reacts to something in the antifibrotics that doesn't cause a problem with most people. That is why HR gave a disclaimer when he told us what would be good to take. 1000 PEOPLE CAN TAKE SOMETHING WITHOUT A PROBLEM AND THEN THE 1001 WILL HAVE A PROBLEM.

Good luck
Bobby

[CockSparrow]

Forgot to mention raised GGT (GGTP) is the most sensitive liver test to detect liver damage related to alcohol consumption
http://www.flash-med.com/Lab2.asp
CS

[CockSparrow]

What Milk Thistle are you taking. Does it contain other ingrediants other than MT. eg Dandelion Boldo etc. Some Milk Thistle contains alcohol. It used in the extraction process.

Resvertrol would be my next guess.
Followed by curcumin, then PPC.
Cant see any of the others doing it but you never know.

You have 2 choices
1. stop taking them 1 at a time and retest.
2. Stop them all and add them back one at a time and retest.

This way you will find the one that is raising your ALTs.
CS

[merryBe]

try reposting this for HR t see it...he may have some thoughts

"HR-here's how my antifibrotics are working according to tests"

something like that should get his attention whe he gets back from his trip.