Aa
too much excersise bad?
I do a hour of cardio about 4 to 5 days a week with weights and I wanted to know can to much exersice be a strain on the liver?sorry for the horrible spelling anyway let me know.
the logic of lots of steroids after 80 is based on one thing only, you won't be needing your liver much longer anyway, so better to keep the patient comfortable at that point.
One of the cheif proponents of small meals more often, and of eating 2-3 ounces of protein per meal (vs. the 6-10 oz we as Americans normally consume) was HR who as you know is a doctor with vast knowledge of liver chemistry.
I know you value his opinion, if understanding is based on the chemistry, we need to pay attention.
Also I had one orthopedic doctor I worked for tell me..."after a patient is 80 yrs. old,, I'll give them as much steroid as they need but before that, even 3 injections is overkill."
Steroids in very small quantities are beneficial, the amount our body normally makes helps reduce inflammation. However, in larger quantities they do extreme harm to the liver which is one reason that the sports community has tried to detect their use, because becoming a millionaire and cutting you life 30 years short is not a good trade off.
When you do weight training you are basically ripping the muscle tissue apart. That's why they call it "ripping" ...because that is precisely what it is. You rip one day, then rest one day. The rest day, is so that the body can catch up, it has to carry off thousands of destryed cells, injured cells, ripped celled...then it secrets tons of steroids to reduce inflammation, and then protein has to be vastly metabolised to fill in the injured areas...more cells are produced than were there before, in anticipation of more muscle being needed for prevention of future lifting injury (the body senses the need) and so hence muscles get bigger.
Unfortunately this excess cell building causes much more protein waste byproducts, and protein waste products are toxic...urea, ammonia, etc etc...hence the liver is overloaded...and also becomes over-oxidized which in turn pushes up the risk of liver cancer as well.
In fact, the steroids are well known for causing HCC, and there are few survivors amongst the steroid crowd that lived to tell the tale...only one guy at least tried to warn folks....remember Hulk Hogan?? Well, very few guys that got heavily into all this have had normal life spans...very few....Google it, don't take my word.
I would say I'd err on the side of caution even though you are in early stage disease.
That way, if it is a few years until you are cured you will still have a mostly healthy liver.
Also, you will feel better if you keep your ammonia down....I know I do.
I reduced my ammonia by 75% and have kept it low by limiting my protein serving size, and your brain will work more efficiently, your muscles will feel better, lots of benefits here.
I think somewhere in the middle lies sanity stratchy, I mean, if you were fighting a cold or a flu, you'd probably take it a little easier...(maybe not run all over Mt. Hood for the day)...but the truth is, you ARE fighting a virus every day...one that makes a million new virons every day, and taxes your system....and we know that too many taxes ain't a good thing!!
mb
I know you value his opinion, if understanding is based on the chemistry, we need to pay attention.
Also I had one orthopedic doctor I worked for tell me..."after a patient is 80 yrs. old,, I'll give them as much steroid as they need but before that, even 3 injections is overkill."
Steroids in very small quantities are beneficial, the amount our body normally makes helps reduce inflammation. However, in larger quantities they do extreme harm to the liver which is one reason that the sports community has tried to detect their use, because becoming a millionaire and cutting you life 30 years short is not a good trade off.
When you do weight training you are basically ripping the muscle tissue apart. That's why they call it "ripping" ...because that is precisely what it is. You rip one day, then rest one day. The rest day, is so that the body can catch up, it has to carry off thousands of destryed cells, injured cells, ripped celled...then it secrets tons of steroids to reduce inflammation, and then protein has to be vastly metabolised to fill in the injured areas...more cells are produced than were there before, in anticipation of more muscle being needed for prevention of future lifting injury (the body senses the need) and so hence muscles get bigger.
Unfortunately this excess cell building causes much more protein waste byproducts, and protein waste products are toxic...urea, ammonia, etc etc...hence the liver is overloaded...and also becomes over-oxidized which in turn pushes up the risk of liver cancer as well.
In fact, the steroids are well known for causing HCC, and there are few survivors amongst the steroid crowd that lived to tell the tale...only one guy at least tried to warn folks....remember Hulk Hogan?? Well, very few guys that got heavily into all this have had normal life spans...very few....Google it, don't take my word.
I would say I'd err on the side of caution even though you are in early stage disease.
That way, if it is a few years until you are cured you will still have a mostly healthy liver.
Also, you will feel better if you keep your ammonia down....I know I do.
I reduced my ammonia by 75% and have kept it low by limiting my protein serving size, and your brain will work more efficiently, your muscles will feel better, lots of benefits here.
I think somewhere in the middle lies sanity stratchy, I mean, if you were fighting a cold or a flu, you'd probably take it a little easier...(maybe not run all over Mt. Hood for the day)...but the truth is, you ARE fighting a virus every day...one that makes a million new virons every day, and taxes your system....and we know that too many taxes ain't a good thing!!
mb
sure scratchy,
keeping active for the sake of heart healthy, as a preventative against diebetes etc is wisdom. But since the liver has to do far more work the more active we are, too much can be deleterious to the liver.
Plus, heavy excersise like weight lifting causes far more muscle byproducts and toxins to form, as well many more steroids to be released, which will then inflame the liver.
(doctors , MD.'s I worked for 30 years ago, used to resist giving any steroid injections to folks under 70 because even one dose was super hard on the liver, so muscle building is basically one of the hardest things for the organ to deal with).
Therefore moderation is the key to keeping the liver healthy, especially if one is in later stage disease. Resting the liver via the modes of not overdoing, and not overeating (6 small meals better than 2 or 3 larger ones), will also promote liver health.
keeping active for the sake of heart healthy, as a preventative against diebetes etc is wisdom. But since the liver has to do far more work the more active we are, too much can be deleterious to the liver.
Plus, heavy excersise like weight lifting causes far more muscle byproducts and toxins to form, as well many more steroids to be released, which will then inflame the liver.
(doctors , MD.'s I worked for 30 years ago, used to resist giving any steroid injections to folks under 70 because even one dose was super hard on the liver, so muscle building is basically one of the hardest things for the organ to deal with).
Therefore moderation is the key to keeping the liver healthy, especially if one is in later stage disease. Resting the liver via the modes of not overdoing, and not overeating (6 small meals better than 2 or 3 larger ones), will also promote liver health.
You know, it's like everything else in nature. Do it in moderation. Things always work best when in balance. If you exhaust yourself by over-exercising, it puts a strain on the whole system.
Also, I've found, like most folks, that what I could do when I was 20 was a lot more than now at 50. So remember to be a bit kinder to yourself as you age.
Also, I've found, like most folks, that what I could do when I was 20 was a lot more than now at 50. So remember to be a bit kinder to yourself as you age.
Hi Mike, great question...I'll have to disagree with Hector on this one.
The truth is the liver is intimately involved in what it takes to restore each stressed cell and every cell put through it's paces as you describe gets stressed, requires far more nourishment and excretes far more toxic byproducts. Cell turnover is closely related to activity levels.
While activity is beneficial, too much, especially in late stage LD can do harm.
Do not take my word for it, read up on the Liver and oxidative stress, ammonia and uric acid build up, and what leads to organ failure, etc. You will discover both diet, drugs and natural digestive toxins, and even simply never resting the organ all play a part in why the organ becomes fibrotic. Fibrosis has been linked more to these processes, actually to the inflammation caused by all these processes than to the actual viral load itself in the last few years.Of course the virus plays a huge part,,,,but It used to thought viral load alone was what caused liver decline, but it's now known that only when inflammation is occuring is this the case. So now this process is known to be tied to many different factors, collagen formation, certain enyzmes, caloric overload, insulin levels, fat levels...so much is involved and plays a part that there's no simple answers here.
I've learned that walking is better than running in late stage disease, yoga or gentle smimming is better than a kick boxing class....the goal should be to maintain heart and muscle health but not at the expense of the one organ that must process every single ingoing and outgoing molecule. Your liver has to process millions of molecules everyday, and on top of that it has to deal with a virus multiplying in the liver, (about a million new virons per day) all of which themselves cause inflammation and stress the organ out. Heavy excersise, or heavy eating, (any drinking or drugging obviously), all of these can be harmful to your liver.
This is because as muscle breaks down and rebuilds an enormous amount of extra calories must all be processed, and toxins must also be dealt with, and it's up to the liver and kidneys to do all that detox. Every square inch of new muscle takes an extra hundred million chemical reactions to achieve. On top of that, beefing up can lead to too much oxidative stress. Oxidative stress and iron storage are thought to be the two biggest culprits that lead to HCC, liver cancer.
The greater the fibrosis the greater the risk as this means there are less liver cells less to do the same job... and/or the higher the iron load the more oxidation ergo the more free radical formation and hence, the more at risk the patient is for HCC, and yes, pushing the body too hard can also weaken the immune system, leading to further issues such as insulin/Interferon level issues.
If you gorge after a work out (eat a whole pizza cause "you deserve it".)..you spike your insulin, and cancel out your interferon in the process. Eventually type 2 diebetes is much more likely to occur in an HCV patient since the virus raises the natural INF, which cancels out insulin, then the body makes more, and finally cells shut down and become resistant to a body awash in insulin. However this catch 22 is hard to avoid, since the 2 substances, insulin and inteferon tend to cancel each other out. This yo-yo chemistry puts us at risk. If we have a hard work out....and then over consume, we only add to this, and can end up with type 2 in spite of all our efforts. So I'd suggest you read "the Zone" by Barry Sears, and try to eat small amounts 5 or 6 times a day, minimum. Otherwise, if you carb load, or gorge because you worked out, you will then store fat and spike your blood sugar, both of which are bad for your liver. Why get your heart and muscles in shape at the expense of your liver?
I would suggest that all the heavy workouts also often lead people to feel they can eat or drink anything and are invincible, not saying you do, but many do this, not realizing the liver really can go into overload just from caloric intake much easier with this disease than without it. Just becuase we don't see or feel any different is no comfort either. For instance, I feel like I can tolerate another surgery just fine, I'm still feeling pretty OK for late stage disease. However, in spite of how I access my body, my hepatologist told me NOT to go by how I feel. The truth is, I have a much greater chance of going into liver shock from anesthesia than the average person. Simple things like eating shrimp or crab could be deadly...many things I used to think could make no difference it turns out can make a huge difference. It's just like if you had a hole in your heart...you might not feel it, you may be able to to do anything you please...but one day your doc says, you have this hole...and if you do thus a so, you may burst it...is this good news, no. Yet better to know the truth than to in blissful ignorance hasten ones own demise. Amen?
I think it's great you are trying to stay healthy, and don't suggest you stop working out, but you may want to read some of HR's posts in here (Hepatitis Researcher) on how to eat so as to not stress the liver...and also as I mentioned, bone up on oxidative stress, waste byproducts and liver metabolism. About 3 years ago HR did a discourse on this, right around thankgiving, which bummed everyone out, but he was telling us the truth. He is an MD, and one of the top researchers in the county, the world really.
The liver is a wonderful chemical factory. It can have millions of things thrown at it each hour, and get out the proper test tubes to make the proper digestible products and neutralize the waste products all day and all night...it is truly the most efficient organ per square inch of any flesh on the planet...a marvel of immeasurable wonder...but that does not mean it doesn't have limits.
If you care about your liver and health, as obviously you do by the sound of it, then you'll learn what those limits are...and the end result should be even greater health.
Still, I'd caution you to learn about the chemistry because trying to stay built up is hard on the organ, even those not taking steriods to beef up can stress the liver in this way as well because, especially the weights cause the body to product many more natural steroids than it normally would, and unfortunately steroids, whether natural or synthetic, are extremely hard on the liver. Again, don't take my word, just google steriods effect of liver, liver damage caused by steroids, and you'll see this is true.
Does that mean we should stop all activity? No. Some activity is great both for heart, blood sugar and 50 other things. However an hour a day is not neccessary to achieve and maintain good cardio conditioning, 15-20 minutes of areobic motion every other day will do that trick nicely. An easier way to maintain weight is simply better dietary choices and portion control. Small meals more often puts the liver under far less stress.
Again, don't take my word, just read up some, and then consider it, and let me know what you think.
mb
The truth is the liver is intimately involved in what it takes to restore each stressed cell and every cell put through it's paces as you describe gets stressed, requires far more nourishment and excretes far more toxic byproducts. Cell turnover is closely related to activity levels.
While activity is beneficial, too much, especially in late stage LD can do harm.
Do not take my word for it, read up on the Liver and oxidative stress, ammonia and uric acid build up, and what leads to organ failure, etc. You will discover both diet, drugs and natural digestive toxins, and even simply never resting the organ all play a part in why the organ becomes fibrotic. Fibrosis has been linked more to these processes, actually to the inflammation caused by all these processes than to the actual viral load itself in the last few years.Of course the virus plays a huge part,,,,but It used to thought viral load alone was what caused liver decline, but it's now known that only when inflammation is occuring is this the case. So now this process is known to be tied to many different factors, collagen formation, certain enyzmes, caloric overload, insulin levels, fat levels...so much is involved and plays a part that there's no simple answers here.
I've learned that walking is better than running in late stage disease, yoga or gentle smimming is better than a kick boxing class....the goal should be to maintain heart and muscle health but not at the expense of the one organ that must process every single ingoing and outgoing molecule. Your liver has to process millions of molecules everyday, and on top of that it has to deal with a virus multiplying in the liver, (about a million new virons per day) all of which themselves cause inflammation and stress the organ out. Heavy excersise, or heavy eating, (any drinking or drugging obviously), all of these can be harmful to your liver.
This is because as muscle breaks down and rebuilds an enormous amount of extra calories must all be processed, and toxins must also be dealt with, and it's up to the liver and kidneys to do all that detox. Every square inch of new muscle takes an extra hundred million chemical reactions to achieve. On top of that, beefing up can lead to too much oxidative stress. Oxidative stress and iron storage are thought to be the two biggest culprits that lead to HCC, liver cancer.
The greater the fibrosis the greater the risk as this means there are less liver cells less to do the same job... and/or the higher the iron load the more oxidation ergo the more free radical formation and hence, the more at risk the patient is for HCC, and yes, pushing the body too hard can also weaken the immune system, leading to further issues such as insulin/Interferon level issues.
If you gorge after a work out (eat a whole pizza cause "you deserve it".)..you spike your insulin, and cancel out your interferon in the process. Eventually type 2 diebetes is much more likely to occur in an HCV patient since the virus raises the natural INF, which cancels out insulin, then the body makes more, and finally cells shut down and become resistant to a body awash in insulin. However this catch 22 is hard to avoid, since the 2 substances, insulin and inteferon tend to cancel each other out. This yo-yo chemistry puts us at risk. If we have a hard work out....and then over consume, we only add to this, and can end up with type 2 in spite of all our efforts. So I'd suggest you read "the Zone" by Barry Sears, and try to eat small amounts 5 or 6 times a day, minimum. Otherwise, if you carb load, or gorge because you worked out, you will then store fat and spike your blood sugar, both of which are bad for your liver. Why get your heart and muscles in shape at the expense of your liver?
I would suggest that all the heavy workouts also often lead people to feel they can eat or drink anything and are invincible, not saying you do, but many do this, not realizing the liver really can go into overload just from caloric intake much easier with this disease than without it. Just becuase we don't see or feel any different is no comfort either. For instance, I feel like I can tolerate another surgery just fine, I'm still feeling pretty OK for late stage disease. However, in spite of how I access my body, my hepatologist told me NOT to go by how I feel. The truth is, I have a much greater chance of going into liver shock from anesthesia than the average person. Simple things like eating shrimp or crab could be deadly...many things I used to think could make no difference it turns out can make a huge difference. It's just like if you had a hole in your heart...you might not feel it, you may be able to to do anything you please...but one day your doc says, you have this hole...and if you do thus a so, you may burst it...is this good news, no. Yet better to know the truth than to in blissful ignorance hasten ones own demise. Amen?
I think it's great you are trying to stay healthy, and don't suggest you stop working out, but you may want to read some of HR's posts in here (Hepatitis Researcher) on how to eat so as to not stress the liver...and also as I mentioned, bone up on oxidative stress, waste byproducts and liver metabolism. About 3 years ago HR did a discourse on this, right around thankgiving, which bummed everyone out, but he was telling us the truth. He is an MD, and one of the top researchers in the county, the world really.
The liver is a wonderful chemical factory. It can have millions of things thrown at it each hour, and get out the proper test tubes to make the proper digestible products and neutralize the waste products all day and all night...it is truly the most efficient organ per square inch of any flesh on the planet...a marvel of immeasurable wonder...but that does not mean it doesn't have limits.
If you care about your liver and health, as obviously you do by the sound of it, then you'll learn what those limits are...and the end result should be even greater health.
Still, I'd caution you to learn about the chemistry because trying to stay built up is hard on the organ, even those not taking steriods to beef up can stress the liver in this way as well because, especially the weights cause the body to product many more natural steroids than it normally would, and unfortunately steroids, whether natural or synthetic, are extremely hard on the liver. Again, don't take my word, just google steriods effect of liver, liver damage caused by steroids, and you'll see this is true.
Does that mean we should stop all activity? No. Some activity is great both for heart, blood sugar and 50 other things. However an hour a day is not neccessary to achieve and maintain good cardio conditioning, 15-20 minutes of areobic motion every other day will do that trick nicely. An easier way to maintain weight is simply better dietary choices and portion control. Small meals more often puts the liver under far less stress.
Again, don't take my word, just read up some, and then consider it, and let me know what you think.
mb
too much of anything is not good.
Too exhaustive excersise can lower natural INF
Moderate 30min cardio can increase it.
Hep C causes insulin resistance in muscle.
Excersise and healthy diet helps slowing this down.
Too exhaustive excersise can lower natural INF
Moderate 30min cardio can increase it.
Hep C causes insulin resistance in muscle.
Excersise and healthy diet helps slowing this down.
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