Aa
Benazir butto dead
She was killed today in a suicide bombing.
It's so tragic.
wyntre
It's so tragic.
wyntre
just hearing this selfsame news this morning...i am less than informed about the lady,but she is part of a dynasty of rulers in pakistan..and i have read reports of incredibkle wealth accumulated by family during their leadership..All death is tragic..was she indeed the answer for pakistan? she certainly had the moxie,name recognition and international regard...Pakistan is in sucha state of chaos&death...military coups,corruption,religious fundamentalists,poverty...the "bomb".....a Great Big Sad mess.......expecting a bit of snow today,maybe a shovel session will distract me from latest political quagmire? hope you are hangin tuff with bearable sides...GOODLUCK
Regardless of how you view her, she has a place in world history as the first Muslim woman head of state; elected for the first time almost 2 decades ago, when she was 35.
Asasinated at age 54.
ironic that the USA is one of the only so-called progressive western nations that still hasn't elected a woman.
Not to mention that Pakistan now has 100 'rogue' nukes that can easily end up in you-know-who's hands.
Sorry if i shouldn't have posted this here but aside from the sheer tragedy of it, I just think everyone better pay attention coz it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
We're not getting the snow here! Hooray for small gifts.
Thanks, beamish,
wyntre
Asasinated at age 54.
ironic that the USA is one of the only so-called progressive western nations that still hasn't elected a woman.
Not to mention that Pakistan now has 100 'rogue' nukes that can easily end up in you-know-who's hands.
Sorry if i shouldn't have posted this here but aside from the sheer tragedy of it, I just think everyone better pay attention coz it's gonna be a bumpy ride.
We're not getting the snow here! Hooray for small gifts.
Thanks, beamish,
wyntre
thanks for posting, been reading up on this, this morning...hope youre doing better...
I talked to my friend from India today, his opinion is GOOD RIDDANCE. He thinks that she had lots of blood on her hands, that she was just as corrupt as anyone else in the region. He hates Musharraf too. He basically is very pessimistic about the future of Pakistan, and hence very worried about India.
4c -
the story sure is weird. How could she have been shot in the head and chest at close range while riding in an armoured car by a suicide bomber who had, evidently, not detonated his bombs until after shooting her . . . . I saw the footage of her standing up through the open sunroof, but I thought the shooting occurred after she sat down again.
- and the forensic evidence has already been washed away.
Jam,
That's ridiculous for your indian friend to have said 'good riddance.' Is that what you think, too?
I also have lots of indian acquiantances/friends and i can't imagine any of them being 'glad' that Bhutto was assassinated, especially since India borders pakistan.
I suppose that the same might be reported by Euripeans or Asians if one of their American friends were to say 'Good riddance' at our president, or a current presidential candidate's assassination.
Are you taking the view of one supposed 'friend' in india as a barometer for others reactions?
As far as having blood on your hands, name one 'world' leader who doesn't.
wyn
the story sure is weird. How could she have been shot in the head and chest at close range while riding in an armoured car by a suicide bomber who had, evidently, not detonated his bombs until after shooting her . . . . I saw the footage of her standing up through the open sunroof, but I thought the shooting occurred after she sat down again.
- and the forensic evidence has already been washed away.
Jam,
That's ridiculous for your indian friend to have said 'good riddance.' Is that what you think, too?
I also have lots of indian acquiantances/friends and i can't imagine any of them being 'glad' that Bhutto was assassinated, especially since India borders pakistan.
I suppose that the same might be reported by Euripeans or Asians if one of their American friends were to say 'Good riddance' at our president, or a current presidential candidate's assassination.
Are you taking the view of one supposed 'friend' in india as a barometer for others reactions?
As far as having blood on your hands, name one 'world' leader who doesn't.
wyn
I think it's too bad. I don't know if she had as many shoes as Imelda Markos, but I doubt it.
Sorry about that...should have clarified. NO, I do not condone barbarism in any form. I just thought Tariks' opinion on it was interesting, he has a different perspective than I, since I get all my news from the U.S. media.
Another thing is, Tarik really thinks that her death probably saved lives. I do not think that him saying good riddance is necessarily inappropriate considering the crimes that he thinks that she committed and the crimes that he thinks she would have committed.
I personally do not feel like I know enough to voice my opinion on the subject. I can tell you that I am scared, I am really scared of the future. The world does not seem to have learned any of it's lessons from the past, and World War 3 sounds less science fiction everyday.
Another thing is, Tarik really thinks that her death probably saved lives. I do not think that him saying good riddance is necessarily inappropriate considering the crimes that he thinks that she committed and the crimes that he thinks she would have committed.
I personally do not feel like I know enough to voice my opinion on the subject. I can tell you that I am scared, I am really scared of the future. The world does not seem to have learned any of it's lessons from the past, and World War 3 sounds less science fiction everyday.
OK. I understand (i think).
I wouldn't want to see my worst enemy assassinated, and I certainly think she did a lot for a lot of people, especially women, or at least gave them some hope.
nobody's perfect, especially politicians, but she is an important symbol of the 21st century and an icon in having become the first muslim woman voted in as a head of state.
If you know anything about what Muslim women go through, I would think that having another woman in power would tend to improve their lives significantly.
As the day has gone on, I've gotten a handle on the sequence of events and it now seems that she, inexplicably, invited the attack because she raised her head above the sunroof of the only partially armored vehicle and exposed herself to the assassin's bullet.
But it's still a terrible tragedy, IMO. And the events that could be triggered by the tragedy are even scarier.
BTW - i used to work in a 'little india on the hudson' school district.
And i don't get all my news from the US media. I do lots of google searches, checking blogs, other countries media, etc.
wyn
I wouldn't want to see my worst enemy assassinated, and I certainly think she did a lot for a lot of people, especially women, or at least gave them some hope.
nobody's perfect, especially politicians, but she is an important symbol of the 21st century and an icon in having become the first muslim woman voted in as a head of state.
If you know anything about what Muslim women go through, I would think that having another woman in power would tend to improve their lives significantly.
As the day has gone on, I've gotten a handle on the sequence of events and it now seems that she, inexplicably, invited the attack because she raised her head above the sunroof of the only partially armored vehicle and exposed herself to the assassin's bullet.
But it's still a terrible tragedy, IMO. And the events that could be triggered by the tragedy are even scarier.
BTW - i used to work in a 'little india on the hudson' school district.
And i don't get all my news from the US media. I do lots of google searches, checking blogs, other countries media, etc.
wyn
i have read multiple testimonials today and my ill informed remarks i would please revise..a. huffington wrote a wonderful piece ..and i am duly humbled by the death of this strong, wise&commited woman..my original post merely repeated old accusations. it was inappropriate and i apologize.i am no fan of the 'powers that be' and generally anyone that bush likes i suspect but tragedy occured today...powerful forces have been unleashed and this bodes ill for muslim women,
pakistan,the middle east and the world....
pakistan,the middle east and the world....
what nice sentiments...I personally am afraid on many levels, while we've been putting our energies, manpower and funds in Iraq, we should of been focusing on Afghanistan and Pakistan...I just hope this doesn't impact us in ways that I don't want to even think about...
Yeah, I get all my news from NPR, being a mother, always running around that is basically the best option because I can listen to it in the car or doing dishes.
When it comes to news from that part of the world, I take all the english speaking media with a big fat grain of salt.
That being said, you are probably right that this was a tragedy for democracy and bodes ill for women of the region.
When it comes to news from that part of the world, I take all the english speaking media with a big fat grain of salt.
That being said, you are probably right that this was a tragedy for democracy and bodes ill for women of the region.
well, if you're interested in the news from pakistan, they're now reporting that although the hospital initially said BB died from gunshot wounds to the head and neck, the government has determined it was from when she 'fell', retreating from the sunroof back to the jeep's interior, and she struck her head on some 'lever', inflicting the mortal injury.
oh, yeah. .......
What with the "Kitchen" accidents, FGM and other Pakistani human and gender rights atrocities, what kind of message doya think it sends to Pakistani women when someone as powerful and connected as BB is assassinated on camera??????
think there's a message there?
wyn
oh, yeah. .......
What with the "Kitchen" accidents, FGM and other Pakistani human and gender rights atrocities, what kind of message doya think it sends to Pakistani women when someone as powerful and connected as BB is assassinated on camera??????
think there's a message there?
wyn
I am glad you posted this here. Where else are we Brian fogged people supposed to talk about politics???? lol I was so depressed and still am about BB's unfortunate demise. You know all the photos I see, I keep saying to myself, ' why are you exposing yourself so much!" She really didn't secure herself as she should have. As one leader (forget who) said, " She is a martyr of democracy". Yep, she sure is. Who else is going to take the place of her in the elections coming in 10 days? There is NO one that is for democratic elections and freedom. She was the one and only. Masherif (sp) doesn't do a thing about terrorism in Pakistan. she was the only one that did. Bin Laden is in some safe haven in N. Pakistan. Who knows who killed her, but it is so sad, but not unexpected. Yuck!
Didya hear that she sent an email to a Washington crony saying that if she died she held musharef responsible?
She had requested additional security and protection after the Bhutto-mobile catastrophe but the Pakistani's refused to provide additional assistance. That's why she wrote the letter, a kind of 'to-be-opened-in-the-case-of-my-death' doc.
I saw a security pro's analysis of the moments before her death and while of course she should not have emerged from the sun roof to address the crowd, it was also glaringly apparent in the video that there was no one protecting her.
I may not agree with everything she did in her life, but IMHO, she was one heroic lady. She didn't HAVE to go back to Pakistan. It's not like she needed the money. it took real courage and, as r glass would say, GONADS, for her to set foot back in that country. She knew she was a marked woman but I don't think she expected musharraf to so blatently hang her out to dry. Can you imagine any American politician exposing themselves to the danger she knew she faced?
She's a hero, especially compared to most of the media portrayed hollywood glamor-girl types this country is so addicted to holding up as role models.
And, predictably, she couldn't be allowed to survive. If this were a game of chess, i'd say Bin Laden was way ahead. What better way to throw Pakistan into turmoil without REALLY evoking the wrath of its (male) citizens then to orchestrate the return of Bhutto and then take HER out? Accomplishes the same thing, chaos, without the taliban and al quaeda having to enrage their possible converts.
Who knows where the path leads? (Ok - I admit I'm hypothesizing but you just don't know - and that's the point - keeping us ignorant as a means to preserving power.)
OK. Now you better respond so I don't get shunned, now. *LOL*
wyn
She had requested additional security and protection after the Bhutto-mobile catastrophe but the Pakistani's refused to provide additional assistance. That's why she wrote the letter, a kind of 'to-be-opened-in-the-case-of-my-death' doc.
I saw a security pro's analysis of the moments before her death and while of course she should not have emerged from the sun roof to address the crowd, it was also glaringly apparent in the video that there was no one protecting her.
I may not agree with everything she did in her life, but IMHO, she was one heroic lady. She didn't HAVE to go back to Pakistan. It's not like she needed the money. it took real courage and, as r glass would say, GONADS, for her to set foot back in that country. She knew she was a marked woman but I don't think she expected musharraf to so blatently hang her out to dry. Can you imagine any American politician exposing themselves to the danger she knew she faced?
She's a hero, especially compared to most of the media portrayed hollywood glamor-girl types this country is so addicted to holding up as role models.
And, predictably, she couldn't be allowed to survive. If this were a game of chess, i'd say Bin Laden was way ahead. What better way to throw Pakistan into turmoil without REALLY evoking the wrath of its (male) citizens then to orchestrate the return of Bhutto and then take HER out? Accomplishes the same thing, chaos, without the taliban and al quaeda having to enrage their possible converts.
Who knows where the path leads? (Ok - I admit I'm hypothesizing but you just don't know - and that's the point - keeping us ignorant as a means to preserving power.)
OK. Now you better respond so I don't get shunned, now. *LOL*
wyn
I'm finding myself reading your posts and this thread and nodding my head and saying yes.
Thank you for putting your thoughts down so articulately!
It's great to see someone expressing exactly how I feel when I am in no place mentally right now to try to express it myself... :-)
Thank you for putting your thoughts down so articulately!
It's great to see someone expressing exactly how I feel when I am in no place mentally right now to try to express it myself... :-)
i have also read of security breaches & of the involvemnt of taliban& bin laden's gang of theocratic thugs(how convenient-localized whipping boys)..but really ,why did anyone (read:bush administration) believe that she could indeed share power with pervez musharraf? a better question is why after spending trillions of dollars,thousands of american lives and millions of middle eastern civilians lives we still have not brought bin laden&cohorts to justice?...why,while supporting resistance to soviet occupation in afghanistan did we train&arm fundamentalist ?..why did we turn a blind eye to pakistan's developmnt of a nuclear weapons arsenal?..why did we continue to maintain bases in saudi arabia after the first gulf war?..we did we remove them after 9/11?...thank god american medical practice is not run like american foreign policy-if so we would all be bankrupt,dead&certainly not winning any popularity contests.
dmrdh,
OMG, lady! that comment has almost convinced me i CAN do another 17 weeks (for total of 72) of this poison!
you just made my month! I'm thrilled I was even the slightest bit comprehensible. :)
BB,
Agree with almost everything you said. Off for shot 55. Will write more, later.
BTW - there's an excellent documentary on right now about Pakistan; ch. 57.
SFBaygirl,
"Where else are we Brian fogged people supposed to talk about politics???? "
Hahahahaha. my sentiments, exactly.
OMG, lady! that comment has almost convinced me i CAN do another 17 weeks (for total of 72) of this poison!
you just made my month! I'm thrilled I was even the slightest bit comprehensible. :)
BB,
Agree with almost everything you said. Off for shot 55. Will write more, later.
BTW - there's an excellent documentary on right now about Pakistan; ch. 57.
SFBaygirl,
"Where else are we Brian fogged people supposed to talk about politics???? "
Hahahahaha. my sentiments, exactly.
You are so articulate and correct in your opinions. All of you. i am glad us Brian heads have somewhere to post this stuff, albeit a hepc community board.
Why have we spent 10 billion dollars firming up Musaref to protect the world from terrorists. He has done NOTHING to help save the world from terrorists. Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has. She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection? Almost think she planned on dying. I know that's an awful thing to say. She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car? It doesn't make sense! Damn it. I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy. Now what are they going to do? Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.
Why have we spent 10 billion dollars firming up Musaref to protect the world from terrorists. He has done NOTHING to help save the world from terrorists. Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has. She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection? Almost think she planned on dying. I know that's an awful thing to say. She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car? It doesn't make sense! Damn it. I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy. Now what are they going to do? Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.
Glad I could make your month!
Yesterday, during our work lunch break I started talking about her and the implications of her assassination on not only to the people of Pakistan but us also. In a room of 9 well educated women there was only one other person in that room that even knew who she was. One girl said she had heard her name before but didn't know who she was......
Extremely frustrating that these are voters and they have no idea whats going on in the world.
OK....I feel better....
Yesterday, during our work lunch break I started talking about her and the implications of her assassination on not only to the people of Pakistan but us also. In a room of 9 well educated women there was only one other person in that room that even knew who she was. One girl said she had heard her name before but didn't know who she was......
Extremely frustrating that these are voters and they have no idea whats going on in the world.
OK....I feel better....
'have also read of security breaches & of the involvemnt of taliban& bin laden's gang of theocratic thugs(how convenient-localized whipping boys)..but really ,why did anyone (read:bush administration) believe that she could indeed share power with pervez musharraf? '
I'm educating myself more about that area and from what I've gleaned, Musharareff and the Pakistanis support both the Taliban and Al Qeada,surreptiously, of course.
The Bush Administration is desperate for an insider (Bhutto) to report back on Mushareff's antics. Another reason she has to be killed.
Ironic, isn't it, that Condoleeza Rice recruited her. Bhutto was sacrificed.
'a better question is why after spending trillions of dollars,thousands of american lives and millions of middle eastern civilians lives we still have not brought bin laden&cohorts to justice?.'
Strategy, IMHO . . . . they don't want him caught. the Pakistanis love Bin Laden. And the US , again, IMHO, have reasons to NOT want to catch him - just look at how al quaeda fell of the political map after 911 and suddenly iraq became the target . . . . Deliberately looking the other way , , , , a shell game . . . .
.'.why,while supporting resistance to soviet occupation in afghanistan did we train&arm fundamentalist ?..'
Think there's a thread here? SOMEONE has plans for alqueda. I'm not gonna post links to certain stuff here but feel free to contact me thru medhelp and I'll send what I've got,
'thank god american medical practice is not run like american foreign policy-if so we would all be bankrupt,dead&certainly not winning any popularity contests.'
well said, beamish.
wyn
I'm educating myself more about that area and from what I've gleaned, Musharareff and the Pakistanis support both the Taliban and Al Qeada,surreptiously, of course.
The Bush Administration is desperate for an insider (Bhutto) to report back on Mushareff's antics. Another reason she has to be killed.
Ironic, isn't it, that Condoleeza Rice recruited her. Bhutto was sacrificed.
'a better question is why after spending trillions of dollars,thousands of american lives and millions of middle eastern civilians lives we still have not brought bin laden&cohorts to justice?.'
Strategy, IMHO . . . . they don't want him caught. the Pakistanis love Bin Laden. And the US , again, IMHO, have reasons to NOT want to catch him - just look at how al quaeda fell of the political map after 911 and suddenly iraq became the target . . . . Deliberately looking the other way , , , , a shell game . . . .
.'.why,while supporting resistance to soviet occupation in afghanistan did we train&arm fundamentalist ?..'
Think there's a thread here? SOMEONE has plans for alqueda. I'm not gonna post links to certain stuff here but feel free to contact me thru medhelp and I'll send what I've got,
'thank god american medical practice is not run like american foreign policy-if so we would all be bankrupt,dead&certainly not winning any popularity contests.'
well said, beamish.
wyn
Why have we spent 10 billion dollars firming up Musaref to protect the world from terrorists. He has done NOTHING to help save the world from terrorists.
''Musharref IS a terrorist or, at the very least, a Muslim FUNDAMENTALIST. The Pakistani people have great affectiona and sympathy for the Taliban.'
Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has. She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection?'
"
just don't think it was as simple as that. Obstacles must have been placed ihn her way. Where was condy then? After getting bhutto into it you'd think she help bail herout, but no . . . "
Almost think she planned on dying. I know that's an awful thing to say.
'Not that she planned it but felt it couldn't be avoided.'
She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car? It doesn't make sense!
I't's a politician thing'.
Damn it. I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy. Now what are they going to do? Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.
'rant on!'
''
''Musharref IS a terrorist or, at the very least, a Muslim FUNDAMENTALIST. The Pakistani people have great affectiona and sympathy for the Taliban.'
Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has. She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection?'
"
just don't think it was as simple as that. Obstacles must have been placed ihn her way. Where was condy then? After getting bhutto into it you'd think she help bail herout, but no . . . "
Almost think she planned on dying. I know that's an awful thing to say.
'Not that she planned it but felt it couldn't be avoided.'
She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car? It doesn't make sense!
I't's a politician thing'.
Damn it. I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy. Now what are they going to do? Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.
'rant on!'
''
I will....went to see Charlie Wilson's War tonite. Great movie! We did nothing to help the Afghan's after the Soviet's left. What were they to do...there was a vaccum. No money for food, roads, schools etc. No wonder many of them hated us. Our support for for them was secret and after that war was over, we did absolutely nothing! If you tear down a country, you at least have to help rebuild it. We did not. It is no wonder that many afghans supported the Taliban and Al Queda. They most likely helped them in a way we didn't. I could rant on and will....later!
that she's still dead. She just doesn't have the magic of General Francisco Franco. No one could die like that dude. Perhaps Castro can bring back some flare in this area. He's died a few times, or at least, been on his deathbed enough to at least make it entertaining.
But, boy, was this woman ever asking for it. I just don't get that whole martyr thing. She could be shopping at Harrods RIGHT NOW. But nooooo....
But, boy, was this woman ever asking for it. I just don't get that whole martyr thing. She could be shopping at Harrods RIGHT NOW. But nooooo....
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