OK, let's fight. What am I fighting about. Burt what are we fighting about. I forgot :)
It's right here baby: http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/45833.html
Well, I'm just wanted one final rant before I watched AI which hopefully recorded earlier. I can't lookat my own thread because I'm afraid someone has said who got voted off the island this week!
I loved your rant.
You are a wonderful lady.
A book I read recently by Bernie Siegel; "lessons learned about self-healing from a surgeon's experience with exceptional patients" says the same thing you said on the other side.
And as someone involved with health care and interacting with patients, you have a perspective way beyond that of most (including me) who aren't in the field.
Thanks for flying to the rescue!
OK. I found the post actually before you humiliated me with the memory thing. LOL.
Wasn't ignoring you, just thought I'd leave it alone after I made my point which was basically to agree with Kalio's point.
To elaborate on my own now, which I think is what you're asking -- yes, things aren't always black and white and in fact often grey. But it's stuff like studies and anecdotal experiences that help us make decisions. You know, the idea about studying history so history doesn't repeat itself.
The last thing I'd want to do is to take away someone's hope. In fact I treated myself when the odds were against me. But I made the decision based on study data and my doctor's advice -- in a nutshell, weighing the risks of treating versus the rewards, factoring in what I thought was a reasonable expectation of getting cured.
Others, might take that same study data and advice and come to another conclusion. Again, no black or white.
If I thought I had one chance in a hundred to cure myself of disease "X", I'd take that one chance and ignore the odds if I thought the rewards outweighed the risks. With Hep C, somethimes they do, sometimes they don't. It ends up being an individual decsion. Not sure if we really disagree all that much but hope this clarifies.
As to AI -- I vote for Jennifer Lopez. She was hot, hot, hot tonight :)
All the best,
You two are angels! You don't have to be in the medical career field to believe in hope, prayers and miracles!
Elaine: Jboyhk posted a treatment web site for hep c. I was going to send it to you but I've copied and pasted this morning so much I think it'll be faster for you to go to the forum. (Faster for me anyhow!!)
Love and hugs
Just to comment a little more on "hope, miracles, and prayer", I believe in all three and did all three on treatment with daily prayers.
The point made in the other thread did not have to do with statistics versus hope but more on what battles make sense fighting and what battles may not. In the case of certain life-threatening cancers -- and I'll just use it as an example -- there is not choice. The battle must be engaged whatever the odds. But in the case of Hepatitis C, it's not always that cut and dry.
Hepatitis C can be a life-threatening condition, but often it is not. For those with little or no liver damage, choices are available, including waiting on treatment, especially for those with little or no liver damage. In the same vein, the treatment process itself can be reasonably driven by how much is at stake, which for many of us involves how much liver damage we have. Therefore when the odds of clearing the virus start to sharply decline in those with little or no liver damage do to lack of viral response -- it's not giving up hope to consider stopping, it's just making a reasonable decision taking into account that the treatment drugs themselves may be doing more harm than good in a particular case.
Pick your battles wisely is all I'm saying.
About Intercessory Prayer: The Scientific Study of Miracles
"A recent, controversial study of cardiac patients conducted at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, concludes that this type of prayer -- known as intercessory prayer -- may indeed make a difference. "Prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care," says cardiac researcher William Harris, Ph.D., who headed the St. Luke's study. The study was published in the October 25, 1999 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine."
Are you an atheist or agnostic? I'm not being snippy, just want to know, unless you don't want to answer. Lets keep it nice though okay. We can if we try.
I will pray for you both as I can only imagine where this one is going :)
Okay, but you don't believe in prayer? Or do you?
Now I will pray for the rest of us as I can only imagine where this is going.
I will pray for you both as I can only imagine where this one is going :)
That was funny. I had to laugh at that one.
Can I tag you (like a wrestling tag team) to take over my converstion with Mike concerning prayer. He's taking too long to answer and I have to run out for a while. Don't be snippy or fresh when standing in for me. Mike and I are being real nice to each other as you can see. If our converstion goes beyond 2 posts and we are not at each others throats Mike and I consider that "answered prayer."
Here is another excerpt from http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/552742?src=mp
Meanwhile, experimenters seek evidence of this breathtaking immensity by searching for a barely measurable difference between the arterial blood flow of a few cardiovascular patients who were prayed for and a few other unfortunates who were not . . . a difference in blood pressure between 1 group of hypertensives who were prayed for and another group that was not prayed for. It is as if one were asking a composer with a quadrillion times the musical capacity and comprehension of a Ludwig Von Beethoven to demonstrate his musicianship by writing out the notes to "Three Blind Mice."
How petty and insulting to whatever deity these investigators claim to be investigating, when the most they can ask of that which has created biologic systems from algae to sequoia giganticus and amoebas to human brains "Let me see if you can fertilize this ovum in a Petri dish with one of your hands tied behind your back"
"For example, one very simple experiment, the results of which would leave little or no doubt about the effectiveness of intercessory prayer, could involve the regeneration of an amputated limb. All that would be required is an adequate sample of amputees as subjects and a sizeable number of believers who will earnestly pray over them. These should not be hard to locate. The investigators could use as many universities and people as possible -- all the willing believers in the country if necessary to pray every day for a year that at least one amputee would have a limb re-grown, and then, at the end of that year, examine all the thousands of amputees for signs of regenerating limbs."
MO: Can I tag you (like a wrestling tag team) to take over my converstion with Mike concerning prayer.
Tell you what, I'll save you the time and play both of you:
MO: So Mike, you're telling me you don't pray for your horses...whoops forgot you sold them to house your motorcyles.
Mike: I don't pray for my motorcycles either. Well, maybe my Harley, but that's sort of required.
MO: Well, did you hire someone to pray for you growing up, given your vast billion dollar inheritance?
Mike: Yes, we had several in help who did nothing but pray for us, but it was my wife with the big bucks remember?
MO: Thanks for sharing, you seem to be a much more sensitive person since you met me.
Mike: I'm not sure "sensitive" and shell-shocked are the same thing.
To be continued....
MO: C'mon Mike, you know I'm starting to grow on you.
Mike: So is that fungus under my nail, I'm not sure what you point is.
MO: Comparing me to a fungus, hey. I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me.
Mike: Certainly not "Morse" code. Maybe "Mars" code?
MO: Oh, that's really funny, Mike, did you think that up all your own.
Mike: No, I got that line from one of my paid writers. You know the ones who also write the prayers.
MO: Well, got to go sing at Church now. See ya!
Mike: Give my regards to your pastor. In fact, you might give him some of your riba. Given his HCV, he may need it and you can probably kill the virus on your own at this point.
Jim, that was far better than what I would have come up with. I thought it was very funny.
Myown, If you read and comprehended the article, which I seriously doubt, you would have understood that the thrust of the article was not that there is no God or that prayer is without benefit. The point was that million upon millions of dollars are spent on "scientific research" trying to establish that prayer can result in miraculous healing but the research is aimed at finding minuscule variations between those prayed for and those unfortunate people who do without the benefit of prayer. And it's silly and rather trite and worst of all wasteful, in his opinion. I happen to share that opinion. I think prayer can be of benefit but probably not for the reason that you believe it can. I believe that a sense of well being can be helpful and perhaps even curative and if a person gets that through prayer then it is beneficial. Likewise if a person gets it through meditation, yoga, music or anyway at all I believe it is beneficial. But I do not believe that God alters his perfect plan as a result of prayer or petition. I think God is beyond that. I think God got it right the first time because after all, God is perfect.
Actually, having a somewhat related thread over on the other side, regarding a recent study on Tai Chi's potential effect on the immune system:
I asked you your stance only because I read the excerpt referring to the amputees. I would assume by your own description of yourself as to not being 'religious,' that you wouldn't believe it possible for a miracle of that sort, whereas I do believe in the power of prayer, not that I understand all aspects, but then again God did say"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts". (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Mike you said:
But I do not believe that God alters his perfect plan as a result of prayer or petition. I think God is beyond that. I think God got it right the first time because after all, God is perfect.
Well to use your own words (but I will replace one or two to make my point:)
If you read and comprehended the BIBLE, which I seriously doubt, you would have understood that the TRUTH of the BIBLE is that GOD DOES ALTER his plan as a result of prayer or petition:
A. Because the Lord God did not find anyone to "stand in the gap," to intercede for the land, He was requited to pour out the judgment due its disobedience.
B. He would not have destroyed Sodom, because of Abraham's persistence, had He been able to find ten righteous men in the city.
C. Moses' intercession for the people of God, in pleading with the Lord for mercy, held back the hand of God from consuming the nation in His wrath.
Exodus 32:7-14; Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 23-27, etc.; Psalms 106:23
D. Because "prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God," Peter's "chains fell off from his hands," "the iron gate ... opened to them of its own accord," and he was led out of the prison by an angel of God!
Acts 12:5-12, etc.
E. God told Jeremiah to search the city and see if he could find even one righteous man; that then He would spare the entire city (chapter 5:1). But Jeremiah knew that their hearts were all hardened against the Lord; that they were reprobate, beyond the place of repentance (ch. 5:3). God told him therefore to not even intercede for them (ch. 7:16; 11:14; 14:11).
II. God Himself seeks faithful intercessors.
Psalms 14:2 (2 Chronicles 16 :9) "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children
of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God."
Ezekiel 22 :30 "And l sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge,
and stand in the gap before Me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none."
A. The ministry of intercession is of divine appointment.
Isaiah 62:6 "I have set . . ."
B. But it is the responsibility of each individual to take the initiative to "stir himself up
to take hold of" God.
C. Scripture says that God was amazed "and wondered that there was no intercessor."
III. The Bible expresses in a descriptive way the very nature of this ministry and the great heaviness of spirit and burden of prayer experienced by those in intercession.
A. "Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven."
B. Job cried, "Oh, that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbor!"
C. When God speaks of His intercessors ("watchmen") and their persistence in prayer,
He says that they "never hold their peace day nor night" and "give Him no rest."
Isaiah 62:6-7; Lamentations 2:18-19
D. "Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down
like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.
Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like
water before the face of the Lord ..."
E. "Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar,
and let them say, Spare Thy people, O Lord, and give not Thine heritage to reproach..."
F. Moses told the children of Israel that in his intercession for them "I stood between
the Lord and you."
Deuteronomy 5:5; Psalms 106:23
G. Jesus "began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; and saith unto them
(his disciples), My soul is exceeding sorrowful ... And He went forward a little, and
fell on the ground, and prayed . . ."
IV. Certain people should be the focus of intercessory prayer on a regular basis.
A. Leaders and government authorities.
I Timothy 2 :1-2
B. The people of God.
Joel 2:12-13, 17; Romans 1:9; Ephesians 6:18
C. Those in spiritual leadership.
2 Corinthians 1:11; I Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:17-18a
1. That they may have boldness to speak the truth.
2. For their divine protection, spiritual strength, and victory over the enemy.
Luke 22:31-32 ; John 17:15; Acts 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2
3. That they will have an open door of ministry.
Romans 15:30-32; Colossians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2
D. The community in which we live, or any city or nation.
Psalms 112:6; Jeremiah 29:7; Daniel 9:3, 16-19
V. True intercession involves more than prayer in general. The intercessor bears a sense
of burden and responsibility.
A. Great cries and tears in travail of prayer are known to those who have felt the
urgency of a burden revealed to them by God.
Ezra 10:1; Nehemiah 1:4; Isaiah 22:4 Jeremiah 13:17; 23:9
Lamentations 2:18-19; 3:48-51; Joel 2:12-13, 17; Hebrews 5:7
B. It often involves fasting.
Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 12-27; Ezra 10:6; Daniel 9:3-4
Joel 2:12-14, 17-18; Jonah 3:5-10
VI. Characteristics of a successful intercessor.
A. Persistence and determination.
Lamentations 2:18-19 "keep not silence, and give Him no rest...day and night ..."
Isaiah 62:6-7; Lamentations 2:18-19
D. Severe self-discipline and selflessness (due to personal identification with the need).
Mark 14:33-35; Lamentations 3:48-50
What always amazes me is that most people claim they believe in God yet have never read his word or at least not in depth as they would a 2007 hep c trial.
You or I can only know God through His Word. That is the only way. Can a person know his inheritance without reading the will or know what his insurance covers without reading the policy. No they can only guess, assume or listen to what 'others' say and formulate what they call 'their opinion.'
My belief is not based on MY opinion, its on HIs WORD.
I should probably stay outta this but, stating God's word by quoting the scriptures only works if the person believes the words are God's and not just some ancient person's or one of King James toadies.
Personally, God whispers in my heart !
I am not an atheist. I do beleive in tolerance, open minds and hearts. Save your sciptures for someone other than I. I will join you in compassion and love for all people. Peace. OH
MO:I don't care for comments such as this one that you made "I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me."
I'm a little puzzled because what I was doing was a paradody of statements you've already made to Mike, and unless my memory is worse than I think it is, you have used similar words yourself regarding Mike "wanting" you. Haven't you?
I understood your statements to be in jest and so were mine. It was just a parody. I do apologize for the parody in that it appears to have offended at least one of you.